Topic: Re: John Henry's open letter to fans

[RK7]

YEAH! WE'RE GOING TO MISS HIS 4 ODD GOALS SOO MUCH!!!!

 

May as well sell the rest of those on the fringes after all we only need 11 players. Really daft how some clubs have players just sitting around watching the games from the stand.

[John C]

To be fair djphal hinted at the same thing - infighting within the club.

* Sorry Djphal if I got that wrong but that how one of your recent posts came accross to me*

A journo should qualify his reasons for writing it though and if he doesn't ... well ..... he's just another journo like the rest of them isn't he. We've had statements from the owners in this OP and feedback from the manager to TAW and RAWK trying to explain the mess so I'm interested in what constitutes "infighting".

[redmark]

May as well sell the rest of those on the fringes after all we only need 11 players. Really daft how some clubs have players just sitting around watching the games from the stand.

Not his point. Carroll, Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi contributed 29 goals in 146 appearances, at combined wages of upwards of £15m. Carroll was going to be even less suited tactically and Rodgers didn't want him; the others are winding down to retirement. As a group, they didn't pay their way. They've been replaced by Cole, Assaidi, Borini and Yesil, with Sterling and Morgan stepping up. Even including Cole (and I didn't include the portion of his wages we were still paying last year), we've saved £5m and I don't think we'll be far short of 29 goals from that group.

We needed another striker to improve; but we haven't really lost that much compared to last year in attack, and have improved in midfield. We've saved money. We need to invest that money (and unspent transfer kitty) well, whether in January or next summer.

[kenny78]

Dont trust FSG in any way shape or form .

[steveeastend]

Tony Evans taking a week to tell us what we already know and again adds sensational bullshit which has no substance. Some one show me where in the rest of his article, which has been covered for 8 days anyway now, he substantiates that there is "infighting".


If there is "infighting" in LFC, give us details Tony.


Will he be pulled on it - will he fuck, nobody, including the lads at TAW will pull him. We all know it was  cock-up, but that word needs substantiating.

A journo should qualify his reasons for writing it though and if he doesn't ... well ..... he's just another journo like the rest of them isn't he. We've had statements from the owners in this OP and feedback from the manager to TAW and RAWK trying to explain the mess so I'm interested in what constitutes "infighting".

The truth about what goes on behind the scenes at a football club NEVER comes out, especially from journos. No way.

It doesn´t take rocket science though to figure roughly what went on. At the moment, it seems like the dust is slowly settling and we will see what´s left then.

The last years would deliver enough for a shocker though, that´s for sure.

[john_mac]

Tony Evans taking a week to tell us what we already know and again adds sensational bullshit which has no substance. Some one show me where in the rest of his article, which has been covered for 8 days anyway now, he substantiates that there is "infighting".

If there is "infighting" in LFC, give us details Tony.

Will he be pulled on it - will he fuck, nobody, including the lads at TAW will pull him. We all know it was  cock-up, but that word needs substantiating.

To be honest though John, there were people at the club clearly upset with what happened at the end of the window, the manager believed that players were arriving that did not and Henry's open letter indcates that FSG felt themselves qualified to make footballing decisions, clearly not the position that Rodger's believed to be the case and certainly at odds with the noises previously coming out of Werner.

We can't do much but see how things move forwards but I'm sure that the manager is at least underwhelmed by the owners undermining him, all we can do is get behind him and his players but can't help but think there's a long season ahead for Brendan and his team. Evidence of infighting? I'd be absolutely amazed if there was not given the events that are in the public domain relating to the events of the transfer window.

[Guz-kop]

Let's be honest we have no fucking leadership beyond the manager. There's nothing holding Fenway, Ayre and Rodgers together. They're in different parts of the world with totally different ideas and only one of them has any expertise in the job they've been asked to do and that's the manager. Infighting? As a collective they (we) are a fucking mess because despite two years, the owners have not managed to employ a football executive to hold things together. I'm not talking a DOF, just someone to work with the manager to get the players he and his staff have identified. Instead what we have is Ian Ayre doing two jobs and Rodgers/Fenway clearly having a difference of opinion on a major transfer and not reaching a positive conclusion.

Infighting may or may not be the word to use but I'd be surprised if there's any cohesion there because it doesn't look like there is and there's nothing on paper to suggest there will be anytime soon. And that's got nothing to do with how much money the owners are putting in but rather common sense of employing expertise when you (FSG) have none. They hired Commolli, promoted him and then sacked him. Now we have no one and it's a bloody surprise we've actually managed to be co-ordinated enough to trim our squad and bring in 2-3 players the manager clearly wanted.

[peachybum]

Instead what we have is Ian Ayre doing two jobs.

What two jobs is Ayre doing? He's just doing the job of a chief executive isn't he but with a different title?

[TSC]

What two jobs is Ayre doing? He's just doing the job of a chief executive isn't he but with a different title?

Read an earlier post that all commercial activities are now undertaken by others as opposed to Ayre.  Don't really know what Ayre does on a day to day basis - he was a bit of a rent-a-quote earlier this Summer.  But at least he's been lying low media wise lately, this can only be a positive.

[John C]

.

.

Maybe I'm sensitive to what the self confessed "abrasive" person writes and says about the club I love. Telling listeners on Talksport that every Liverpool player had their agents negotiating an exit and putting the boot in to Suarez doesn't give him much credibility.
TAW lads described the situation as "brinkmanship" but didn't dwell on it much, so I'd still like to know what constitutes "infighting" and precisely who is involved.

[FLRed67]

Owners taking a lot of flak. And some of it is deserved - they have made mistakes, no question. But consider the big picture.

Some things the owners can do; some things they cannot.

They cannot win the title for the club. That depends on perfect foresight in choosing the perfect manager, who in turn must create a team capable of finishing ahead of other, vastly more wealthy clubs. That will take years - if it ever happens.

What the owners can do is put the club on an even keel financially, and leave it better off than when they bought it.

They have largely wiped out the debt. They have already enhanced revenue streams, with various sponsorship deals. Within a year, the rest of the overpaid, underachieving, "big name" players will be sold or otherwise taken off the payroll, saving tens of millions annually.

The fourth step will be expanding Anfield. They have been working on that.

Then they can ride off into the sunset.

Along the way, if it so happens that Rodgers turns out to be the new Shankly, Paisley, or Ferguson - then great: we will have hit the jackpot.

[TSC]

Owners taking a lot of flak. And some of it is deserved - they have made mistakes, no question. But consider the big picture.

Some things the owners can do; some things they cannot.

They cannot win the title for the club. That depends on perfect foresight in choosing the perfect manager, who in turn must create a team capable of finishing ahead of other, vastly more wealthy clubs. That will take years - if it ever happens.

What the owners can do is put the club on an even keel financially, and leave it better off than when they bought it.

They have largely wiped out the debt. They have already enhanced revenue streams, with various sponsorship deals. Within a year, the rest of the overpaid, underachieving, "big name" players will be sold or otherwise taken off the payroll, saving tens of millions annually.

The fourth step will be expanding Anfield. They have been working on that.

Then they can ride off into the sunset.

Along the way, if it so happens that Rodgers turns out to be the new Shankly, Paisley, or Ferguson - then great: we will have hit the jackpot.

Let's inject some reality here.  The owners got us for a 'song'.  I don't blame them for that.  Anything is only worth what buyers are prepared to pay.  However there have been a few posters quoting Purslow's comments about them at the time of buy-out, and the only positive thing he said about them was 'they exist'.

They haven't wiped out the debt either as evidenced by the accounts.

Any semi competent commercial person would have improved us, given we were completely inadequate on that score previously.

They can not win a title for a club, I'll give you that.  What they can do is provide the infrastructure and funds to support a title bid.  The rest is obviously down to the manager and players. 

They have failed to provide an infrastructure (despite promises at start of the Summer they've appointed no-one to support things strategically from a football poiht of view) and also failed to back the manager, disastrously in the last day of the window.

They have done nowt re the ground issue either.

Actually, come to think of it.  They've done next to nothing generally.

[cashmere pringle]

they've made a telly program

[Skrtels Head]

Owners taking a lot of flak. And some of it is deserved - they have made mistakes, no question. But consider the big picture.

Some things the owners can do; some things they cannot.

They cannot win the title for the club. That depends on perfect foresight in choosing the perfect manager, who in turn must create a team capable of finishing ahead of other, vastly more wealthy clubs. That will take years - if it ever happens.

What the owners can do is put the club on an even keel financially, and leave it better off than when they bought it.

They have largely wiped out the debt. They have already enhanced revenue streams, with various sponsorship deals. Within a year, the rest of the overpaid, underachieving, "big name" players will be sold or otherwise taken off the payroll, saving tens of millions annually.

The fourth step will be expanding Anfield. They have been working on that.

Then they can ride off into the sunset.

Along the way, if it so happens that Rodgers turns out to be the new Shankly, Paisley, or Ferguson - then great: we will have hit the jackpot.

I'm drunk but I want you to shut up! You're talking plop.

[didi shamone]

Not his point. Carroll, Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi contributed 29 goals in 146 appearances, at combined wages of upwards of £15m. Carroll was going to be even less suited tactically and Rodgers didn't want him; the others are winding down to retirement. As a group, they didn't pay their way. They've been replaced by Cole, Assaidi, Borini and Yesil, with Sterling and Morgan stepping up. Even including Cole (and I didn't include the portion of his wages we were still paying last year), we've saved £5m and I don't think we'll be far short of 29 goals from that group.

We needed another striker to improve; but we haven't really lost that much compared to last year in attack, and have improved in midfield. We've saved money. We need to invest that money (and unspent transfer kitty) well, whether in January or next summer.

Yea, that Rodgers fool saying it was a big mistake letting him go without a replacement is off his head. Thank god we don't have two strikers that have scored in the premier league.
And expecting 29 goals from four players this year, three of whom are kids who never scored a goal in the premier league and the other being Joe fucking Cole is madness. Hope you're right but that's mystic meg on optimism tablets I think.

[Live in the Now]

Yea, that Rodgers fool saying it was a big mistake letting him go without a replacement is off his head. Thank god we don't have two strikers that have scored in the premier league.
And expecting 29 goals from four players this year, three of whom are kids who never scored a goal in the premier league and the other being Joe fucking Cole is madness. Hope you're right but that's mystic meg on optimism tablets I think.

For the last fucking time, people need to understand. Why people keep banging on about those three players without knowledge of the circumstances (or knowing them and purely being ignorant) is beyond me.

Maxi and Bellamy no longer wanted to play for Liverpool and preferred to go home.

Dirk had a release clause in his contract, didn't like the playing time given to him last season, and got an offer from a team which was in the Champions League qualifiers and guaranteed to play him every week.

Away all three went. Absolute shit that people keep sticking knives into Rodgers over this, seems like there's a queue of people ready to revel in his possible failure.

[didi shamone]

For the last fucking time, people need to understand. Why people keep banging on about those three players without knowledge of the circumstances (or knowing them and purely being ignorant) is beyond me.

Maxi and Bellamy no longer wanted to play for Liverpool and preferred to go home.

Dirk had a release clause in his contract, didn't like the playing time given to him last season, and got an offer from a team which was in the Champions League qualifiers and guaranteed to play him every week.

Away all three went. Absolute shit that people keep sticking knives into Rodgers over this, seems like there's a queue of people ready to revel in his possible failure.

I was being sarcastic about the fact that a poster stated that we wouldn't miss Carroll when Rodgers said we would.  So I was siding with the manager. And I made no mention of Maxi Bellamy or Kuyt. But it's late so I assume you misread.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

It is zero fault of Rodgers we lost Maxi, Kuyt or Bellamy, but lose them we did (along with Carroll who Rodgers is responsible for) and they were replaced with players who are unlikely this season to be truely adequate replacements. Of course I would love to be proven wrong and for Borini to start scoring for fun and Assaidi to hit the ground running and Yesil to have a Fowler like start to his 1st team career.
Maxi is a goal scoring threat from midfield, Kuyt and Bellamy are both big game players, and Bellamy's pace made him an excellent bench option.
Carroll may not have suited Rodgers, but he was at least a one man plan B.
Combine that with the fact we are in an additional competition this year and there are grounds to ask questions about how we could and should have handled our summer business differently.

[Mutton Geoff]

I'm drunk but I want you to shut up! You're talking plop.

Post of the day for me.

[And Could He Play]

Post of the day for me.

ha ha, was a belter of a post.

[Fromola]

Let's be honest we have no fucking leadership beyond the manager. There's nothing holding Fenway, Ayre and Rodgers together. They're in different parts of the world with totally different ideas and only one of them has any expertise in the job they've been asked to do and that's the manager. Infighting? As a collective they (we) are a fucking mess because despite two years, the owners have not managed to employ a football executive to hold things together. I'm not talking a DOF, just someone to work with the manager to get the players he and his staff have identified. Instead what we have is Ian Ayre doing two jobs and Rodgers/Fenway clearly having a difference of opinion on a major transfer and not reaching a positive conclusion.

Infighting may or may not be the word to use but I'd be surprised if there's any cohesion there because it doesn't look like there is and there's nothing on paper to suggest there will be anytime soon. And that's got nothing to do with how much money the owners are putting in but rather common sense of employing expertise when you (FSG) have none. They hired Commolli, promoted him and then sacked him. Now we have no one and it's a bloody surprise we've actually managed to be co-ordinated enough to trim our squad and bring in 2-3 players the manager clearly wanted.

Spot on. Two years they've been here and haven't appointed a CEO. That's totally unacceptable.

All they've done is continually promote Ian Ayre to way more than he's capable of to try and make up for no CEO and Comolli being fired and not replaced.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

What's Billy Hogan's title/job?

[Smug Cassandra]

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view/20220909in_sox_blame_pie_theos_just_a_slice/srvc=home&position=also

Looks like the Red Sox have been hit with the same kind of bad decision making,

[kapil08]

Dont trust FSG in any way shape or form .

Alright Kenny. I wouldnt either

[Alan_X]

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view/20220909in_sox_blame_pie_theos_just_a_slice/srvc=home&position=also

Looks like the Red Sox have been hit with the same kind of bad decision making,

If you read the detail that doesn't really bear any relation to our circumstances. It's talking about a problem season not a club in structural decline:

Now let’s turn things around. The Red Sox should not be a hopelessly lost cause in 2013, thanks to a young nucleus. Dustin Pedroia [stats], Jon Lester [stats] and Clay Buchholz are each locked up at reasonable money for 2013 and beyond. Those were Epstein’s moves. So was Jacoby Ellsbury [stats], who remains under team control for one more season. So were Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Franklin Morales, Jose Iglesias and Ryan Lavarnway, all of whom could be pieces of the solution. The same may even go for Daniel Bard.

Then there’s the next generation. It’s worth noting that most of the team’s best prospects — from infielder Xander Bogaerts to speedy outfielder Jackie Bradley Jr. to slugger Bryce Brentz to left-hander Henry Owens — joined the organization on Epstein’s watch.

They may not start arriving until 2014, but they’re significant talents.

We’ll only mention in passing the World Series titles in 2004 and 2007 that Epstein helped engineer, because they’re not relevant to 2012, but let’s at least acknowledge that those happened, too. Same goes for the front office culture that placed the Red Sox on the cutting edge of melding traditional scouting and statistical analysis.

Add it all together, and Epstein’s contributions to the Red Sox deserve more than a blanket “repudiation.” Yes, he bears a large share of the blame for what went wrong this year based solely on the ill-advised millions he spent in free agency or extending players such as Beckett.

But he’s no more to blame for the team’s current predicament than ownership, and the guess here is that when all is said and done, and the Red Sox inevitably return to contention with the nucleus he built and the prospects he acquired, we’ll view the end of his tenure more kindly.

And as the writer points out, FSG delivered the World Series in 2004 and 2007.  If we're using the Red Sox as a model for what might happen here, we should expect the League anytime now.

[Alan B'Stard]

For all the bitching and moaning about FSG and their lack of spending on a replacement striker, also and coming out and saying they have made mistakes.

Just watch this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvvinJgz5E

It could be a lot lot worse!

[Guz-kop]

For all the bitching and moaning about FSG and their lack of spending on a replacement striker, also and coming out and saying they have made mistakes.

Just watch this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvvinJgz5E

It could be a lot lot worse!

Felt sick watching that.

Not a good example to use though, you can understand some people extra suspicious about owners.

[kapil08]

May as well sell the rest of those on the fringes after all we only need 11 players. Really daft how some clubs have players just sitting around watching the games from the stand.

Was talking about Andy Carroll. Read the original post of the guy I've quoted.. "For the love of God"

[decky]

Felt sick watching that.

Not a good example to use though, you can understand some people extra suspicious about owners.

People should do their homework and look at what FSG have done with the Red Sox over the last 10 years or so. There are books out there you can read which give a good insight into the kind of people they are. All the things they are putting in place at LFC more than suggest they are here for a few more years yet and want the club to succeed. They've been having some teething problems alright over the last 2 years but they will learn from their mistakes, that's what these people have being doing their whole professional lives.

The current problems at the Red Sox are partly down to the fact that an era has come to end. The sabermetric moneyball idea is now old news in baseball - every team does it now and so the advantage is now gone. In football there are still big opportunities I think though. The problem FSG have had in Boston is that they couldn't keep ahead of the curve, other teams caught up and then overtook them. We're a few years off having to worry about that yet at LFC but it's something they should keep in mind. With the model they are putting in place you must never stand still

[kapil08]

I think it's safe to say that the H&G episode has changed the fortunes of this club, and it's supporters, forever.

[Joe_Singh]

Not his point. Carroll, Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi contributed 29 goals in 146 appearances, at combined wages of upwards of £15m. Carroll was going to be even less suited tactically and Rodgers didn't want him; the others are winding down to retirement. As a group, they didn't pay their way. They've been replaced by Cole, Assaidi, Borini and Yesil, with Sterling and Morgan stepping up. Even including Cole (and I didn't include the portion of his wages we were still paying last year), we've saved £5m and I don't think we'll be far short of 29 goals from that group.

We needed another striker to improve; but we haven't really lost that much compared to last year in attack, and have improved in midfield. We've saved money. We need to invest that money (and unspent transfer kitty) well, whether in January or next summer.

Excellent perspective that.

[AKABillyGee]

I was literally on a plane leaving the country when this crap hit the fan so have returned as the hurricane has subsided.

I think the letter from JWH was ill considered, badly written and in parts incoherent.  He talks of clarity and planning but fails to elucidate.  There is no mention of stadium development or of board room changes.  In customer relations training the case of 'the bug letter' is often cited - that is what JWH's tome is a 'bug letter'.

It looked as if our new Director of Corporate Affairs had been bypassed and not consulted before publication which is worrying as Brendan Rodgers must be feeling he is in a similar position over transfers.

[filopastry]

Let's inject some reality here.  The owners got us for a 'song'.  I don't blame them for that.  Anything is only worth what buyers are prepared to pay.  However there have been a few posters quoting Purslow's comments about them at the time of buy-out, and the only positive thing he said about them was 'they exist'.

They haven't wiped out the debt either as evidenced by the accounts.

Any semi competent commercial person would have improved us, given we were completely inadequate on that score previously.

They can not win a title for a club, I'll give you that.  What they can do is provide the infrastructure and funds to support a title bid.  The rest is obviously down to the manager and players. 

They have failed to provide an infrastructure (despite promises at start of the Summer they've appointed no-one to support things strategically from a football poiht of view) and also failed to back the manager, disastrously in the last day of the window.

They have done nowt re the ground issue either.

Actually, come to think of it.  They've done next to nothing generally.

I'm not sure I really "get" the whole "they bought us for a song" argument, this is a club which has never made meaningful money and requires significant investment, I'm not sure they bought much of a bargain, to be honest from an economic point of view you could argue they probably overpaid.

[shelovesyou]

Let's inject some reality here.  The owners got us for a 'song'.  I don't blame them for that.  Anything is only worth what buyers are prepared to pay.  However there have been a few posters quoting Purslow's comments about them at the time of buy-out, and the only positive thing he said about them was 'they exist'.

They haven't wiped out the debt either as evidenced by the accounts.

Any semi competent commercial person would have improved us, given we were completely inadequate on that score previously.

They can not win a title for a club, I'll give you that.  What they can do is provide the infrastructure and funds to support a title bid.  The rest is obviously down to the manager and players. 

They have failed to provide an infrastructure (despite promises at start of the Summer they've appointed no-one to support things strategically from a football poiht of view) and also failed to back the manager, disastrously in the last day of the window.

They have done nowt re the ground issue either.

Actually, come to think of it.  They've done next to nothing generally.

No offence but thats an extremely obtuse perspective.
They have fucked up, of course, but to say they have done nothing is quite ridiculous.

[Bonaqua]

I was literally on a plane leaving the country when this crap hit the fan so have returned as the hurricane has subsided.

I think the letter from JWH was ill considered, badly written and in parts incoherent.  He talks of clarity and planning but fails to elucidate.  There is no mention of stadium development or of board room changes.  In customer relations training the case of 'the bug letter' is often cited - that is what JWH's tome is a 'bug letter'.

It looked as if our new Director of Corporate Affairs had been bypassed and not consulted before publication which is worrying as Brendan Rodgers must be feeling he is in a similar position over transfers.

Claims and assumptions without basis in reality. Too easy to spread poison like this on a forum. The least you can do is to give concrete examples to back up your claims.

[TSC]

No offence but thats an extremely obtuse perspective.
They have fucked up, of course, but to say they have done nothing is quite ridiculous.

Well maybe it's the wording.  Of course they've done things.  However my view is that the negatives outweigh any positives.

[fowler9_god]

I think it's safe to say that the H&G episode has changed the fortunes of this club, and it's supporters, forever.

Find it funny when you said that. Not many were that 'concerned' about G&H at that time. So ideally that minority should have been up in arms about FSG but everyone is.

I don't know what point I am trying to make here, but that statement just doesn't sit well with me.

[ollick]

Claims and assumptions without basis in reality. Too easy to spread poison like this on a forum. The least you can do is to give concrete examples to back up your claims.

I have to agree, the irony is the post below is just as badly written and in parts incoherent as the letter he is talking about.

Seems like someone is wanting to impress with big words and failing.

I was literally on a plane leaving the country when this crap hit the fan so have returned as the hurricane has subsided.

I think the letter from JWH was ill considered, badly written and in parts incoherent.  He talks of clarity and planning but fails to elucidate.  There is no mention of stadium development or of board room changes.  In customer relations training the case of 'the bug letter' is often cited - that is what JWH's tome is a 'bug letter'.

It looked as if our new Director of Corporate Affairs had been bypassed and not consulted before publication which is worrying as Brendan Rodgers must be feeling he is in a similar position over transfers.

[Redman0151]

I think it's safe to say that the H&G episode has changed the fortunes of this club, and it's supporters, forever.

Forever is a big word to use.

[harleydanger]

That's odd, based on his tweeting I always thought Tony was dismissive of FSG. It almost comes off as if he's covering for them there.

He's right though, break the bank and get whoever it takes to be the middle man.

I've always got the feeling Tony had an axe to grind with FSG, no idea why