Author Topic: Suárez and referees  (Read 16445 times)

Offline stevieheighway

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2012, 10:27:52 pm »
It was noticeable tonight with a European Ref, Luis seemed to get much fairer treatment and as a result was calmer and chatted back less.

Thing is, if Luis wants to have this type of relationship with English referees then he has to play the same role with them, if he behaves the way he did tonight then inevitably refs opinions of him will start to balance out and he will get a fairer crack of the whip
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2012, 11:31:33 pm »
The Premier League is basically agenda-driven reality television. The Sky producers decide on which incidents they'll replay endlessly and which they'll brush under the carpet. The tabloid-reading knuckle draggers that make up the fans of 95% of clubs will lap it up. Wayne Rooney's off-the-ball elbow on Wigan's James Mccarthy was the worst act of cowardice and villainy I've seen in the last few seasons, yet he not only escaped a ban, but any type of longterm media scrutiny.

I don't want Luis to change. He doesn't elbow players off the ball, he doesn't dive without contact, he doesn't routinely put fellow professionals in danger unlike half of the Stoke team. If he cuts down on his theatricality, he'll lose his edge. Let's just enjoy him while we have him, and send him away to Barcelona/Real Madrid after a few seasons in the Champions League with our blessings. You can't win against such a level of hypocrisy.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2012, 11:26:34 am »
Fantastic bit of writing.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2012, 01:56:41 pm »
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Fantastic bit of writing.

Spot on.

There's on or two things I'd pick up on. I don't think that it is helpful to think of it as being about the foreign nature of suarez. You are totally correct that a senior England international could just about douse the ref in petrol and set him on fire. But that only applies to senior england internationals. Players who were members of the Golden generation/shower. And by Christ it applies to england internationals. Terry literally gets away with murder, Lampard broke xabi alonso's ankle with a murderous lunge and got away with a yellow card. God alone knows how many times wayne rooney should have been sent off for dissent alone, never mind his violent episodes. Think of all of the times the referee chuckles and says "Paul Scholes, what a joker, 79 years old and he still hasn't learned to tackle, ho,ho,ho." as some poor unfortunate lies rolling on the ground clutching his thigh or knee. or even closer to home, jamie carragher opening up a gaping wound in nani and getting a yellow card. I can remember Stevie G getting away with quite a bit back when the thought that every tackle was a life or death battle. It's an across the  board kind of thing. But pretty much the same rules apply to everyone else.

It's not really that suarez is foreign is at issue, I mean god knows there are a lot of premiership players from abroad, it's that he just doesn't get the same extraordinary special treatment that senior england internationals get. I think you have to look a little closer to Luis for the cause of the problems.

Quote
Marriner, who had shown something of a laissez-faire approach to this all afternoon, clearly took offence at being told how to do his job, perhaps like Steve Bennett did at Old Trafford back in 2008 when Fernando Torres calmly pointed out that he was being kicked from one side of the pitch to the other and got booked for his trouble. Referees can be a sensitive bunch, can’t they? Well, they can be, yes, but there is a maddening inconsistency to their interpretation of what constitutes a bookable offence and what doesn’t.

A good rule of thumb is don't give visible signs of dissent. I was listening a former footballer, I think it was Kenny Cunningham on Newstalk, saying that you can say essentially whatever you want to the referee as long as you don't make it really obvious to everyone that you are challenging his authority, like waving your arms, or pointing, or crowding in on him. That really pisses them off. If you just shout at them, that's between you and them. What is said on the pitch generally stays on the pitch. If you poke your finger in their face, or bounce the ball into the air in frustration, That's between you, them and the crowd. I spotted something in a video I'll link to below. It looks as though Bennett is doing everything he can do to ignore torres, right up until the point where he makes that quacking/flapping lips gesture with his hand, and he immediately reaches for the card. I used to think that was a very harsh yellow card, until I spotted that. It's not that he's foreign, or that he's not getting the protection he deserves, it's that he had crossed a certain line, and he had picked the worst weekend in the history of dissent to do it.

I think there's a very big lesson for Luis in that. If he's got a complaint to make to the ref, he doesn't need to look like the angriest man in the world. Dramatics are what gets you booked. and even if it doesn't get you booked every time, it makes it more likely that the ref is going to get pissed off with you, and book you at some point, for something you might have otherwise gotten away with. It also gets grating and distracting if used too often, and I'm afraid that it along with other things, have turned him into a kind of pantomime villain. But that is entirely down to him.  People largely only see him as he presents himself. if he presents himself as some sort of cartoonish tasmanian devil figure, snarling, and filled with rage and anger, that's what people, and referees are going to see him as.

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It’s only a personal feeling, but I have to wonder whether a lesser player than the England and Chelsea left-back would have received that kind of temperance from Riley. The ability to book players for abusive language was already there at that point, and indeed Cole was booked as I recall, but Steve Bennett certainly didn’t show that level of patience to Javier Mascherano at Old Trafford a few days later. Was that simply down to a difference in refereeing style or maybe a case of following the new hard line orders from the FA to the letter? Perhaps, but I bet it didn’t hurt either that this was a hot-headed South-American and not an England international.

As far as I recall, most of the fuss over ashley Cole, was that as the ref was booking him, he kept showing him his back. It was a pretty outrageous display of brattishness, and disrespect, and It was simply too much. As for mascherano, I watched him Through my fingers in that match, after He got booked for smashing into paul Scholes, with incredible force. In any game other than a Sky Super Soccer EARTHQUAKE Sunday match between two big red/blue clubs, he might well have been sent off. But after the booking he was just shouting Fuck off Fuck off Fuck off." it was like there was someone else in his body. It was the total opposite of the usual steely eyed, cold tempered, shrewd, calculating defensive midfield genius. He then went on to make a serious of heavy tackles, not all of them successful,  and kept giving the ref some serious and uncharacteristic lip. It was like he was trying to get sent off. It was insane. He was never like that in any other game against man utd. And then he ran a long way, and broke xabi alonso's grip to give the ref grief, over something that didn't really have anything to do with him. At some point, the ref is going to send you off. You can see some of it in this video here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4qQTiC0I-c (you can see the torres incident at 45 seconds.

There was more to it that is shown there. I remember it very clearly because it was such an uncharacteristic display. Mascherano as close as you can get to a cold eyed clinical professional. He sees the game as a series of jobs to be done. He does them all. That's why he's been such a success at barcelona in a completely alien position. He doesn't get angry often because that gets in the way. He's very good at tackling, so most of his fouls are conscious tactical fouls to break up play. if he gets booked for Anger, or dissent, that is one foul less that he can commit, when the team needs to break up an attack, and he can't win the ball. This was an entirely different Mascherano. But In that game, he really went out of his way to make it difficult for Bennett to not send him off. And he did it on the worst weekend in the history of dissent. 

The Issue simply was that in that game he was out of control. And when Luis is shouting and waving at referees, he's out of control. he's lost focus. I don't understand how this frequently total loss of focus helps his game. It certainly doesn't win favour with referees. He simply complains too much, and referees start to discount it after a while. Referees no longer see a link between suarez complaining, and a serious wrong having been done to him, so they can't really tell when he's justified, and when he's not. as someone mentioned above, he's a bit like Craig Bellamy in this respect. bellamy starts complaining good and early, he's always getting into angry rows at his direct opponent. he always looks like the angriest man in the world when he's doing it. How many times have you seen the camera fall on bellamy and his face is wrinkled up into a ball of rage as he's swearing at someone, frequently an official?

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No doubt that kind of attitude would make you scratch and claw for absolutely everything (I wish I had a little more of it) and we’re lucky to have someone like that. But here’s the thing: referees don’t care. The FA don’t care. In a sport that’s regularly filled with rage and vented spleen, diving and cynicism, where the widespread attitude seems to be that the ends justify the means, some people nonetheless get singled out and gain a reputation for gamesmanship. This has already happened with Suárez. When I look at him, I don’t see a dirty player. He’s put in a couple of awkward challenges in the past (Parker and Ivanovic at Anfield last season spring to mind) but there was no malice in them. He’s gone down easily on occasion, but there are (and have been) far worse offenders in the English game than him. Yet as early as the start of last season, there was this sense that he was somehow the greatest cheat who had ever set foot on English soil, a figurative dark cloud hanging ominously in a sunny blue sky.

Again that comes back to the image he's created for himself (with the help of the media) as a pantomime villain. That same thing that drives him to compete to the same level in every game, often makes him behave the same way in every game. Some players shout at referees, Luis does it in every game, several times. Some forwards make bad tackles, because they're kind of shit at it. The thing that drives him to make so many tackles for a forward, leads him to make a lot of tackle fouls for a forward (rather than the andy carroll, shoving fouls) It's the consistency that gets him a reputation for dirtiness, rather than a smaller number of spectacular murderous lunges. A lot of players dive. Luis goes to ground very easily fairly consistently. If he works harder to stay on his feet, then falling to the ground will start to mean something again, and he'll get more free kicks.

All of this comes back to the same thing, a lack of control. He needs to mature as a player. He should look at lionel messi. Messi is a ferociously competitive player. But he is completely cold on the pitch. He can whine at referees a bit, but he doesn't do it all that often, or throughout a game. I'm not suggesting that Suarez completely change his character, but recognize what works for the greatest player in the world, and see what he can use to adapt his game, and move towards messi.  Perhaps he needs to work with a sports psychologist to address the difference that he points out between his on pitch, and off pitch personalities, then you could see him become a radically different player.

He needs to become part of a system. He can't be the only one talking to the referee all the time. Pressuring the referee should become a team thing, like at Barcelona. That way the ref doesn't get pissed off with any one player. And he can't be complaining all the time. He can't be making some fairly dodgy tackles, because he is the only one closing down defenders. Think of how useful he could be as part of a full team pressing effort, where it would be less about a lone warrior winning implausible battles.

It's the same with his play on the ball. he has so many things going for him, but his play lacks focus, and he winds up doing a lot of things that have a relatively low probability of success (shooting from too far out, when he could go closer for example) Again this is as much due to the lack of a coherent system around him. And if Rodgers is capable of constructing a proper pass and move style, then he will have a lot more support, and be a lot more effective. A more successful Suarez, will hopefully be a less angry suarez. 

All of the elements are there for him to become a really great player, but he has to mature, and if he does, then that will become the story about suarez, and people will print that, because that is news. And that is how you change people's perceptions. And that is also how we can get the best out of suarez.

BTW there is a good interview with Sid lowe about that piece on Newstalk.ie. If you go to their website, and click on listen back, and then click on the podcast tab in the pop-up. Then go to off the ball, and then the football show podcast, and I think it's the one from the 20th of august. It's after about 33 minutes. It's quite interesting, about his motivations in writing the piece, His impression of what suarez is like, and the nature of modern football fans.

once again a lovely piece of writing

Offline lancashirelad

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2012, 03:09:55 pm »
Excellent article, well done
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2012, 08:08:15 pm »
An excellent post. I may be wrong but I think Rodgers may have had a word, as I see evidence of him trying to stay on his feet more. For someone with his talent, he's going to get kicked a lot. He knows that the best reponse is putting the ball in the net. It certainly shut up the ridiculous "you know what you are" chants from Hearts fans, yes fans from the most religiously bigoted league in the world. But that's ok.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2012, 06:20:34 pm »
First half of Sunderland match. Suarez so far not talking to ref or flapping his hands. Nothing. Obviously he's been spoken to by Rodgers and is trying to keep cool.

Gets cut down in the box - no simulation, no holding his leg and rolling around, no hands in the air - he just goes down and starts to fix his socks. Yellow Card for simulation.

The vendetta against Suarez in this league is shameful. A disgrace.

Offline -Q-

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2012, 06:25:59 pm »
First half of Sunderland match. Suarez so far not talking to ref or flapping his hands. Nothing. Obviously he's been spoken to by Rodgers and is trying to keep cool.

Gets cut down in the box - no simulation, no holding his leg and rolling around, no hands in the air - he just goes down and starts to fix his socks. Yellow Card for simulation.

The vendetta against Suarez in this league is shameful. A disgrace.

It was a dive.  Contact with the left leg, then the right collapses in a heap.  Happens all the time, penalties often given, but it was still a blatant dive.
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2012, 06:28:21 pm »
No other player in the league would have been booked there.

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Re: Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2012, 06:31:53 pm »
It was a dive.  Contact with the left leg, then the right collapses in a heap.  Happens all the time, penalties often given, but it was still a blatant dive.

Heavy contact with left leg. Went down. Maybe could have stayed up, but why should he?  Probably a penalty. Definitely not simulation. Shouldn't be a yellow card. Refereeing on reputation. Disgraceful.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2012, 06:33:33 pm »
No other player in the league would have been booked there.

Possibly.  The problem is the inconsistency.  It should be a penalty every time or not.
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Offline paddysour

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2012, 01:52:15 am »
He's been booked twice for simulation in his career here. Both of them were clear fouls, Gary Neville of all people raised the point on the first one.

Offline khalilur

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2012, 02:19:59 am »
Looks like a dive to me. Can't blame the ref for giving the yellow card.  I hate seeing other players doing it so I'm not going to wring my hands about this card.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2012, 05:14:15 am »
I hate diving so i wouldn't defend it but if you think that was a dive you need to look at it again - o'shea didn't even just come across one foot, he stuck a leg across both suarez's feet, he was bound to have have caught him as the replays show
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Offline wz4jc3

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2012, 12:26:25 pm »
I'm sorry but, it was a dive for me. He was looking for it in my opinion.

Offline khalilur

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2012, 01:39:16 pm »
If people who watch it on tv can be divided whether it's a dive or not, then you can't blame the ref who had to make a split second decision.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2012, 01:46:43 pm »
I'm sorry but, it was a dive for me. He was looking for it in my opinion.

If theres contact, how can it be a dive?

Try running at speed, even the smallest of touches can knock you off balance, never mind someone sticking their leg out on purpose and getting nowhere near the ball and knocking your knee.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2012, 01:48:22 pm »
Dive. Had that been given against us, we'd be going mental.You know, like we did when Shane Long was rewarded for his play acting.
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2012, 04:07:40 pm »
The commentary for the Welbeck and Suarez' incidents says it all...and Welbeck#s was the more blatant bit of cheating rather Suearez actually was body to body with his man.

Welbeck - "Ooh, looks a bit of a soft one that."

Suarez- "Yep he's gone down far too easily there, far too easily"

Might not be much but the contrast is obvious. Makes for a better narrative though if its Suarez going down, ready made pantomime villain for them dickheads at MOTD.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 04:09:59 pm by OneTouchFooty »

Offline Ultimate Bromance

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2012, 05:55:10 pm »
Thought it was a dive and a penalty, live it looked like a straightforward dive, but on the replay you see he's clipped him, and exaggerated or not, contact is contact. The kind of pen you don't like to see given, but if consistency was king, when you look at the decision earlier in the day, would be.

What angered me more was the lack of defence from any of the other players, when the Sunderland lads had a go at him, not sure what they were doing. Same whenever he's brought down in open play, rarely do the others look after him with a word to the ref, or the opposition. Bit poor.
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2012, 06:09:38 pm »
The commentary for the Welbeck and Suarez' incidents says it all...and Welbeck#s was the more blatant bit of cheating rather Suearez actually was body to body with his man.

Welbeck - "Ooh, looks a bit of a soft one that."

Suarez- "Yep he's gone down far too easily there, far too easily"

Might not be much but the contrast is obvious. Makes for a better narrative though if its Suarez going down, ready made pantomime villain for them dickheads at MOTD.

You can't even compare the two. You'll do well to see a better case of cheating/diving than the penalty that Welbeck won. There was absolutely no contact whatsoever. Imagine if Luis did that. They'd be calling for him to have his work permit revoked. Fucking hypocrites. It's always the South American's fault.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2012, 09:34:22 pm »

This is the relevant section from the FIFA laws:

http://ar.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2011_12e.pdf



If a player tackles an opponent in a manner that is considered to be careless in the view of the referee, a direct free-kick can be given (or penalty).

Similarly, if a player trips, or attempts to trip...

All this talk about contact should be irrelevant.  If the 'fouled' player has to avoid an opponent, it is still a foul, if the referee considers the opponent to be careless (and judges that the opponent attempted to trip/kick the player).


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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2012, 09:56:53 pm »
Yesterday was the 2nd time in 2 away league games that Suarez shouldn't have been booked.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2012, 10:26:21 pm »
Thought it was a dive and a penalty, live it looked like a straightforward dive, but on the replay you see he's clipped him, and exaggerated or not, contact is contact. The kind of pen you don't like to see given, but if consistency was king, when you look at the decision earlier in the day, would be.

What angered me more was the lack of defence from any of the other players, when the Sunderland lads had a go at him, not sure what they were doing. Same whenever he's brought down in open play, rarely do the others look after him with a word to the ref, or the opposition. Bit poor.
Rodgers should be all over this. You can bet your life Atkinson would have pointed to the spot before you could blink if that was Hazard.

Luis could easily have been given a penalty against Arsenal and Sunderland and he has been booked twice for diving already this season when he has been fouled.

Rodgers neeeds to get some clever spin on this.

Offline lancashirelad

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2012, 08:36:55 am »
The truth is that Suarez is his own worst enemy sometimes and his theatrics are a bit of a joke at times.

You can spend all your life pointing the finger at others who do wrong to justify your actions but he would be better taking a look at himself and sorting out his behaviour and think about the example he is setting to young kids.

Blaming the media for making him a scapegoat is again avoiding dealing with some of his unacceptable behaviour as a player.
True, the refs are not giving him penalties any more, they think he's faking it all the time
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2012, 09:14:07 am »
Yesterday was the 2nd time in 2 away league games that Suarez shouldn't have been booked.

Also booked at home to City (or was it Arsenal) for nothing much wasn't he? He'll be serving a ban for 5 yellows by the end of Spetember at this rate!

Rodgers should be all over this. You can bet your life Atkinson would have pointed to the spot before you could blink if that was Hazard.

Hazard was denied a fairly clear looking one at the weekend wasn't he?

Offline Damian_LFC

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2012, 01:26:40 pm »
Refs look for body language and John OGay ran over to him like he was innocent, while no liverpool players made a claim.
I feel really sorry for Suarez because that is a definite penalty, look at West Broms against us.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2012, 01:38:45 pm »
Refs look for body language and John OGay ran over to him like he was innocent, while no liverpool players made a claim.
I feel really sorry for Suarez because that is a definite penalty, look at West Broms against us.

This is something that annoys me greatly i have to say. Why was'nt our players surrounding the ref protesting the peno claim, and it's not just the weekend it happens a lot i'm afraid
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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2012, 01:39:36 pm »
Rodgers should be all over this. You can bet your life Atkinson would have pointed to the spot before you could blink if that was Hazard.

Luis could easily have been given a penalty against Arsenal and Sunderland and he has been booked twice for diving already this season when he has been fouled.

Rodgers neeeds to get some clever spin on this.

Spot on. Needs to make an issue of this because the media are happy to go down the cheating South American route. He shouldn't have recieved either booking and everyone should be made aware.  Rodgers would be doing Luis, the team and by extension himself a big favour.
If, as indeed it looks that Luis is making an effort to clean up his act, then it should be recognised.

Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2012, 09:20:08 pm »
Dive. Had that been given against us, we'd be going mental.You know, like we did when Shane Long was rewarded for his play acting.

This is just the sort of stuff I love.

Shane Long supposedly dives, gets a penalty and we go mad about it

Luis supposedly dives, doesn't get a penalty and errr, we go mad about it......though there was more contact that the Long incident.....and he got booked for a dive!

See what I mean?  We have fellow Reds trying to make us believe something is a dive and is wrong when we have those shitty decisions against us all season!

Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2012, 09:22:15 pm »
Thought it was a dive and a penalty, live it looked like a straightforward dive, but on the replay you see he's clipped him, and exaggerated or not, contact is contact. The kind of pen you don't like to see given, but if consistency was king, when you look at the decision earlier in the day, would be.

What angered me more was the lack of defence from any of the other players, when the Sunderland lads had a go at him, not sure what they were doing. Same whenever he's brought down in open play, rarely do the others look after him with a word to the ref, or the opposition. Bit poor.

 :o

The ones I hate to have given.  In fact, it is that long ago I've forgotten the last one of them the I "hate" given actually awarded

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2012, 09:44:05 pm »
As John Barnes pointed out over replays, just because it wasn't a penalty then it doesn't have to be a yellow card for a dive. Unfortunately a lot of the media like to slam foreign players for diving and demand a yellow card despite replays showing better whilst the Johnny Englishman was denied a penalty until replays show better and then they move on to he has just gone down a little easy and drop the subject.

It's a situation we'll see over and over with Wellbeck/Young diving left, right and centre but not being criticised but Suarez and his foreign compadres are demonised constantly.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2012, 09:58:24 pm »
he is a marked man with the refs but he doesnt help himself sometimes.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2012, 08:20:55 am »
This is the relevant section from the FIFA laws:

http://ar.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2011_12e.pdf



If a player tackles an opponent in a manner that is considered to be careless in the view of the referee, a direct free-kick can be given (or penalty).

Similarly, if a player trips, or attempts to trip...

All this talk about contact should be irrelevant.  If the 'fouled' player has to avoid an opponent, it is still a foul, if the referee considers the opponent to be careless (and judges that the opponent attempted to trip/kick the player).
Thank-you.  It is amazing how many people don't understand these basic concepts.

I remember the worst argument I had about this was at the pub when Ngog "dived" over a challenge in the box and won a pen.  Couldn't tell you which game it was, but he cleared the player completely and went down.  I was trying to explain that it's still a pen, because the challenge was so reckless and he either dived over it the way he did, or he get's cleaned up.  Regardless, it's a pen.

The other element to this that I am constantly having to argue with people is the fact that, if it is a foul anywhere else on the pitch, than it is a penalty in the box.  The tendency that the refs have for having to basically hack off the leg with a chainsaw before awarding a peno is ridiculous, and the commentators/media have people believing that that is actually how it's supposed to be played.

I may just quote this post every time this stupid argument rears up in here (we know it will).  It really is ridiculous though, it's not that hard a rule to understand!
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Offline bigbear

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2012, 08:28:56 am »
About 30 years ago on Match of the Day, Kenny was accused of diving when he withdrew his leg from contact and went over it. When questioned he said I got my leg out of the way to stop it being broken. If you have to take evasive action to avoid being hammered it's a foul. That's an easy concept to explain when there is someone coming in 2 foot off the floor and you have to hurdle the challenge but not so easy when the incoming foot is low.

Offline JonnyLFC

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2012, 09:33:26 am »
About 30 years ago on Match of the Day, Kenny was accused of diving when he withdrew his leg from contact and went over it. When questioned he said I got my leg out of the way to stop it being broken. If you have to take evasive action to avoid being hammered it's a foul. That's an easy concept to explain when there is someone coming in 2 foot off the floor and you have to hurdle the challenge but not so easy when the incoming foot is low.

Thats a fair point, there. Because a player going in recklessly does not make contact does not make it any less of a foul. The attempt was there - should you get away with it because the opposing player was able to get out the way?

With suarez though, he can be his own worst enemy, but has clearly been making an effort over the last month or two. Hopefully he'll start to turn people around and the papers will have to talk about nothing but his footballing abilities.

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2012, 11:10:22 pm »

I remember the worst argument I had about this was at the pub when Ngog "dived" over a challenge in the box and won a pen.  Couldn't tell you which game it was, but he cleared the player completely and went down.  I was trying to explain that it's still a pen, because the challenge was so reckless and he either dived over it the way he did, or he get's cleaned up.  Regardless, it's a pen.

v Birmingham City in November 2009.  Lee Carsley was the guilty man.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/6534478/Liverpool-striker-David-Ngog-cheated-to-win-penalty-says-Birminghams-Lee-Carsley.html#

I'm mates with a guy who is Carsley's best mate.  I told him to ask Carsley if he thought a tactical foul to 'take a yellow for the team' was cheating.  I never got a reply.

Hypocritical or what?

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2012, 11:14:39 pm »
Oh, and while I'm in here... did anyone else see the tackle on Sterling at 1-0 today that left him holding his legs?  That was two footed, off the floor, the top leg ploughed through Sterling while the bottom one played the ball.  Highly reckless as I saw it.  I thought he was lucky because this season a few players have been sent off for less.

Offline keyo

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2012, 11:39:02 pm »
Oh, and while I'm in here... did anyone else see the tackle on Sterling at 1-0 today that left him holding his legs?  That was two footed, off the floor, the top leg ploughed through Sterling while the bottom one played the ball.  Highly reckless as I saw it.  I thought he was lucky because this season a few players have been sent off for less.

agree entirely.....was wondering why it was not noted that the standing foot left the floor and followed through almost knee high.....the commentator's mate here even mentined it saying something along the lines of "he made sure he left his mark on sterling"

the rule is actually fairly clear in how it shoul be interpreted, in that it is the tackle that is the foul, not the outcome.....if a tackle is reckless or dangerous it falls under the rules as you quoted already, the interpretation of that has taken in "leaving the ground" to indicate losing control, hence "reckless"

as for suarez today, unfortunately he was getting frustrated more by what was going on, the score, the poor finishing up front, balls bouncing off lfc players to go out, ricochets going villa's way, etc.....very few decisions went against us because of poor refereeing, the agger one being the only really significant one.....so him chipping away at the ref was probably unwarranted, but more reflective of his own frustrations
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Suárez and referees
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2012, 01:35:09 am »
v Birmingham City in November 2009.  Lee Carsley was the guilty man.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/6534478/Liverpool-striker-David-Ngog-cheated-to-win-penalty-says-Birminghams-Lee-Carsley.html#

I'm mates with a guy who is Carsley's best mate.  I told him to ask Carsley if he thought a tactical foul to 'take a yellow for the team' was cheating.  I never got a reply.

Hypocritical or what?
That's the one!

It is hypocritical, and it is so frustrating talking to people that regurgitate rubbish like in the article you've posted because that's the only exposure to the rules they've ever had and they aren't capable of forming their own opinions.

I'd love to hear what Carsley would have said to that question though!

On the tackle on Sterling... I've long given up on getting a fair crack from the refs.  Especially not with Suarez in the team.
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