Author Topic: Climate Emergency is already here. How much worse it gets is still up to us (?)  (Read 379712 times)

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #440 on: December 23, 2012, 09:03:30 pm »
, the oceans are accumulating considerable amounts of heat,
As things stand though, oceans are still accumulating huge amounts of heat, which is consistent with the energy imbalance at the top of the atmosphere. Since over 90% of warming goes into the oceans, why do you focus on surface temperatures to make your point and ignore this huge sink?

This is something else you keep trotting out. When you look up the figures – it's nonsense!

Before I put up some of the figures – surely the climate models would take the heat uptake into account anyway. If it is disappearing into the ocean (it isn't) then that would've shown that the models are wrong anyway.



A (much) better version can found (in flash) at the NOAA site

http://www.climatewatch.noaa.gov/article/2011/climate-change-ocean-heat-content

The heat content is often quoted in gazillion (1022) Joules. It sounds impressive – it's meant to perhaps.

16 gazillion (1022) Joules, in 40 years, is enough heat to increase the average temperature of the upper 700 meters of ocean by a whopping 0.168 degrees Centigrade.

0.42 deg C per century

Not so impressive.

As you can eyeball, the ocean temps have leveled off as well!!

We've had half decent Ocean Heat data since 2003 since all those Argo Buoys were scattered throughout the seas of the world.

A bit of homework for you Bio -

Download the Argo Data yourself and plot it with Excel and take a trend. It's very flat Bio. It's really very flat.

SST and OHC are closely correlated - and always have been!



So Air temperatures are flat and the ocean temperatures are flat.

So why are you saying it's all going into the ocean?
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Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #441 on: December 23, 2012, 09:38:12 pm »
Several papers show that the oceans are still accumulating heat - I don't need to do draw a graph. This is from Murphy et al. (2009):



This is from Nuccitelli et al. (2012):



This is from Levitus et al. (2009):



And this is from NOAA:



All show that the Earth has carried on accumulating heat in the past 16 years.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #442 on: January 14, 2013, 01:00:24 am »
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/fiddling-while-rome-burns--the-3trn-cost-of-climate-delay-8449863.html

Fiddling while Rome burns – the £3trn cost of climate delay

(of course - the brunt of the cost to tackle climate change will be borne by the world's poor. The companies most directly responsible are paying lobbying costs now, to ensure they don't have to pay their fair share later)

Expert warns that Doha agreement to wait until 2020 to tackle global warming is a mistake


The Doha climate summit agreement which delayed vital action to tackle global warming for another seven years will cost $5 trillion (£3.1trn) to remedy, according to research by one of the world's leading climate change scientists.

Delaying until 2020 measures to cut carbon dioxide emissions enough to give the world a fair chance of containing global warming would cost 25 per cent more than taking action to achieve the same reduction now, according to the first research to quantify the financial impact of deferring remedial measures. The increase would take the cost from $20trn if action started today to $25trn if it began in 2020, as agreed in Doha last month.

"It was generally known that costs increase when you delay action. It was not clear how quickly they change," said Dr Keywan Riahi, of the renowned International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Austria (IIASA), which conducted the research.

"With a 20-year delay, you can throw as much money as you have at the problem, and the best outcome you get is a 50-50 chance of keeping the temperature rise below two degrees," said Dr Riahi, a lead author of the last two influential "assessment reports" for the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), as well as the next one, due out in 2014.

Most experts agree that once global warming exceeds two degrees centigrade the consequences become increasingly devastating. Last month the world's leading nations reaffirmed a goal of two degrees at the UN climate change conference in Doha and agreed to launch a co-ordinated global campaign to ensure the target was met.

However, they gave themselves until 2015 to finalise the details of the campaign and five more years to prepare for it, meaning action to combat global warming will not happen until 2020.

Dr Riahi's calculations demonstrate the costs of such a delay. The $5trn, or 25 per cent, figure represents the increase in the total cost of ensuring emissions are reduced to a level that give the world a fair – 60 per cent – chance of keeping global warming to two degrees.

This includes the cost of switching from polluting coal-fired power stations to renewable energy sources and from petrol to biofuels – as well as areas such as introducing measures to improve energy efficiency.

"Climate is a cumulative problem and so the 'headroom' with respect to the emissions that can be vented into the atmosphere in order to stay below two degrees is limited," said Dr Riahi, who calculated the cost of delay for The Independent, which he derived from research his organisation published in the journal Nature this month.

"Any lack of emissions reduction now needs to be compensated by more rapid and deeper emissions later on and this makes it more expensive ," he added.

The extra spending would be spread between 2020 and 2100, and much of will be needed by 2050, says the IIASA.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:05:57 am by RojoLeón »

Offline SP

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #443 on: January 14, 2013, 08:12:00 am »
Quote by Paul Watson, a founder of Greenpeace: "It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true."

Quote by Jim Sibbison, environmental journalist, former public relations official for the Environmental Protection Agency: "We routinely wrote scare stories...Our press reports were more or less true...We were out to whip the public into a frenzy about the environment."

Quote by Al Gore, former U.S. vice president, and large CO2 producer: "I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience to listen to what the solutions are, and how hopeful it is that we are going to solve this crisis."

The Al Gore one's a cracker.

“ over-representation of factual presentations”

i.e. lie and axaggerate!

And he got the Nobel Prize!

You couldn't make this stuff up!

A campaigner, a politician and a journalist. All to some extent are PR to a party line. It is not surprising that they present partial views to reinforce their position - that is what they do. They are however not scientists, and it is not their job to be objective.

However mendacious the political cases being made - and the sceptics are in a big glass house here - it does not affect the scientific case. Scientists are held to higher ethical standards.

Offline MHLC

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #444 on: January 14, 2013, 01:31:15 pm »
The US released a draft copy of its National Cimate Assessment last week. Its pretty frank in stating the causes and impact (both current and future) of climate change in the US.

Another nail in the coffin of human induced climate change deniers.

http://ncadac.globalchange.gov/

Offline Roady

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #445 on: January 14, 2013, 01:57:11 pm »
The prblem i have with all this is the fact that the scientists rely on models for future outputs etc.WHen in fact and this week is case in point,The weather forcasters and scientists who rely on said models still cant acurately forcast the weather within a five day timescale.I dont doubt before everyone jumps on my back that there is a lot we could do etc and that we cause some effect,im just saying i take it with a pinch of salt at the moment when someone tells me this or that is going to happen in 20-50-100 years.
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Offline SP

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #446 on: January 14, 2013, 02:11:14 pm »
The prblem i have with all this is the fact that the scientists rely on models for future outputs etc.WHen in fact and this week is case in point,The weather forcasters and scientists who rely on said models still cant acurately forcast the weather within a five day timescale.I dont doubt before everyone jumps on my back that there is a lot we could do etc and that we cause some effect,im just saying i take it with a pinch of salt at the moment when someone tells me this or that is going to happen in 20-50-100 years.

There are lots of things that single instances cannot be modelled accurately but which can be analysed statistically.

Take tossing a coin. Predicting a single toss will be about 50% accurate. But if you tossed a coin 100 times, and then repeated the block of 100 10,000 times - the curve that you get for the number of heads in each 100 toss block is predictable. It is counter-intuitive that a system that is chaotic and unpredictable can be modelled, but it is true none the less.

Offline MHLC

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #447 on: January 14, 2013, 02:15:22 pm »
The prblem i have with all this is the fact that the scientists rely on models for future outputs etc.WHen in fact and this week is case in point,The weather forcasters and scientists who rely on said models still cant acurately forcast the weather within a five day timescale.I dont doubt before everyone jumps on my back that there is a lot we could do etc and that we cause some effect,im just saying i take it with a pinch of salt at the moment when someone tells me this or that is going to happen in 20-50-100 years.

Why are you bringing this up again when it has been explained to you that climate science is not weather forecasting?

I'd also suggest you consider some of the changes being observed around the world and the wealth of real world evidence being collected, rather than being hung up on modelling.

Offline Mello

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #448 on: January 14, 2013, 04:34:26 pm »
There are lots of things that single instances cannot be modelled accurately but which can be analysed statistically.

Take tossing a coin. Predicting a single toss will be about 50% accurate. But if you tossed a coin 100 times, and then repeated the block of 100 10,000 times - the curve that you get for the number of heads in each 100 toss block is predictable. It is counter-intuitive that a system that is chaotic and unpredictable can be modelled, but it is true none the less.

While that is true, it usually takes quite a lot of trial and error.  Take weather modeling as an example.  When those models were first created, they were worse than pure climatology (just using past averages as a forecast) and much worse than human meteorologists.  It has taken decades of teams around the world comparing their model predictions to actual events and making corrections over and over again, up to the point we are at now, decades later, where we can get the accuracy we see now. 

This hasn't occurred in the climate community.  The models are still calibrated based on hindcasting (using past data and having the model predict things that occurred in the past).  This is because the time scales involved are much longer than in weather.  A team would have to wait for at least a couple of decades of data to compare to their model predictions for it to be meaningful.  Over that time due to advancements in knowledge and technology any model will be completely obsolete over that time.   The models still represent the best we know now, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to not be convinced about their predictions.  Especially when early real world results are not matching very well.

Offline SP

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #449 on: January 14, 2013, 07:08:31 pm »
While that is true, it usually takes quite a lot of trial and error.  Take weather modeling as an example.  When those models were first created, they were worse than pure climatology (just using past averages as a forecast) and much worse than human meteorologists.  It has taken decades of teams around the world comparing their model predictions to actual events and making corrections over and over again, up to the point we are at now, decades later, where we can get the accuracy we see now. 

This ignores the vast increase in computing capacity that has accompanied the increase in accuracy. Forecasting models have got more detailed as the price of computing power has dropped. The same benefits have been felt by the climate models too.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #450 on: January 14, 2013, 07:36:30 pm »
This hasn't occurred in the climate community.  The models are still calibrated based on hindcasting (using past data and having the model predict things that occurred in the past).  This is because the time scales involved are much longer than in weather.  A team would have to wait for at least a couple of decades of data to compare to their model predictions for it to be meaningful.  Over that time due to advancements in knowledge and technology any model will be completely obsolete over that time.   The models still represent the best we know now, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to not be convinced about their predictions.  Especially when early real world results are not matching very well.

Climate models have actually done a good job so far, and are improving all the time because of better processing power and more memory. It's important to understand what they project before you can assess them - looking at their projections and comparing those with global temperatures won't tell you much about their validity, because models have to make assumptions, such as the level of greenhouse gases, and many don't include all the natural factors. A couple of recent papers show how well the IPCC models have fared:

Comparing climate projections to observations up to 2011

Assessment of the first consensus prediction on climate change

It's also worth pointing out that model outputs are corroborated by both observations and the paleo record. Models can be improved, without a doubt, but they're already providing useful information.


Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #451 on: January 17, 2013, 05:35:09 am »
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/14/study-climate-change-inaction-blame-lies-largely-with-environmental-groups/

Study: Climate change inaction blame lies largely with environmental groups

(interesting approach here - read through, the argument makes more sense than the headline presents. The other, maybe more honest argument, is that fossil fuel disinfo-dollars are better spent (or in greater volume) and with more impact than the corresponding enviro-lobby money
Spoiler
[close]
)

Academic paper largely clears President Obama of blame over failure to pass climate legislation through Congress

A Harvard academic has put the blame squarely for America’s failure to act on climate change on environmental groups. She also argues that there is little prospect Barack Obama will put climate change on the top of his agenda in his second term.

In a research paper, due to be presented at a Harvard forum next month, scholar Theda Skocpol in effect accuses the DC-based environmental groups of political malpractice, saying they were blind to extreme Republican opposition to their efforts.

Environmental groups overlooked growing opposition to environmental protections among conservatives voters and, underestimated the rising force of the Tea Party, believing – wrongly, as it turned out – they could still somehow win over Republican members of Congress through “insider grand bargaining”.

That fatal misreading of the political realities – namely, the extreme polarisation of Congress and the Tea Party’s growing influence among elected officials – doomed the effort to get a climate law through Congress. It will also make it more difficult to achieve climate action in the future, she added.

Skocpol, meanwhile, lets Obama off the hook for the political inaction on climate change, overturning the conventional wisdom among environmental leaders that political cowardice by the White House ultimately doomed climate legislation.

Her paper is likely to cause a stir among environmental groups hoping to see action on climate change during Obama’s second term. Skocpol, in her analysis, does not offer much cause for optimism.

“Whatever environmentalists may hope, the Obama White House and congressional Democrats are unlikely to make global warming a top issue in 2013 or 2014,” she writes.

The extreme weather events of the 2012, from superstorm Sandy to an historic drought, are unlikely to shift their priorities, she said.

“The stark truth is that severe weather events alone will not cause global warming to pop to the top of the national agenda,” Skocpol went on. “Fresh strategies will be needed, based on new understandings of political obstacles and opportunities. ”

Skocpol, a political scientist, compares the failed push for a climate law unfavourably to the ultimately successful effort to pass healthcare reform.

She interviewed key players in the push for climate legislation in 2009 and 2010, as well as activists from the Tea Party groups who helped sink those efforts.

The biggest mistake of the environmental groups, Skocpol said, was their failure to appreciate the extreme polarisation of Congress since the mid-90s, or fully appreciate that Republicans in Congress were softening in their support for environmental issues from 2007 – even before the emergence of the Tea Party.

That political blindness was far more damaging to the effort to pass a climate law than the economic downturn, the language used to frame the climate change debate, or even the lack of full-throated leadership from Obama, she argues. A deal that may have been possible in the 90s was going to be a non-starter amid the political conditions in 2008, she said.

Nevertheless, the US Climate Action Partnership, which Skocpol describes as a coalition of “CEOs and Big Enviro honchos”, continued to believe it could wrangle exactly such a deal out of Congress.

That strategy overlooked how the political reality outside clubby Washington had turned against their cause. Skocpol attributes much of that shift to the well-funded effort by conservative thinktanks to undermine climate science. The 90s and onwards saw a sharp increase in the publication of reports and books questioning climate change, which eventually got picked up by mainstream media outlets.

The USCAP never understood the shift in conservative popular opinion, she writes. They also failed to build the broad grassroots organisations needed to push for change.

“The USCAP campaign was designed and conducted in an insider-grand-bargaining political style that, unbeknownst to its sponsors, was unlikely to succeed given fast-changing realities in US partisan politics and governing institutions,” Skocpol writes. And she warns the failed attempt “did much to provoke and mobilise fierce enemies and enhance their populist capacities and political clout for future battles”.

A number of prominent Republicans who had support climate legislation had already turned away by 2007 – not least John McCain, who was Obama’s opponent in 2008. McCain’s choice of Sarah Palin as his vice-president, who is famous for her “drill, baby, drill” comments, should have alerted environmental groups to changing politics around the environment, Skocpol writes.

The writing was on the wall even more starkly after 2010, when a number of Republicans who had previously compromised on environmental issues were defeated by more conservative primary challengers, and by the stunning wins for Tea Party-supported candidates in the congressional elections.

Skocpol’s recommendations for environmental groups are stark. “Climate change warriors will have to look beyond elite manoeuvres and find ways to address the values and interests of tens and millions of US citizens,” she writes.

“Reformers will have to build organizational networks across the country, and they will need to orchestrate sustained political efforts that stretch far beyond friendly congressional offices, comfy board rooms, and posh retreats.”

She concludes: “The only way to counter such right wing elite and popular forces is to build a broad popular movement to tackle climate change.”

Climate activist Bill McKibben said Skocpol’s analysis mirrored his experiences in building the grassroots organisation 350.org.

“Basically, we need a movement, and we need something a movement can get behind,” he said in an email. “Something people as compared to corporations might care about.”

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #452 on: January 17, 2013, 09:19:41 am »
I'm sure her arguments are valid, but it seems to me that environmental groups playing the lobbying game badly isn't really the root of the problem. This lies in a system that allows vested interests and ideology to take precedence over physical reality in matters of science. As a result, we have a rotten system that allows polluting activities to go on for longer than needed. That's why it took time to get a smoking ban in place, or to take action to limit CFCs and SO2/NOx, for example.

Sad state of affairs - we just never learn.

Offline RedinExile

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #453 on: January 17, 2013, 12:31:02 pm »
I'm sure her arguments are valid, but it seems to me that environmental groups playing the lobbying game badly isn't really the root of the problem. This lies in a system that allows vested interests and ideology to take precedence over physical reality in matters of science. As a result, we have a rotten system that allows polluting activities to go on for longer than needed. That's why it took time to get a smoking ban in place, or to take action to limit CFCs and SO2/NOx, for example.

Sad state of affairs - we just never learn.
I've argued on here before that in the UK the dearth of MPs with a decent science background is a grave cause for concern, something MPs themselves have acknowledged. It was laughed off on here as an irrelevance, but perhaps then there would be less people arguing there is one rule for the Al Gores and one for scientists.

Until the populace have a better grounding in science, and this is mirrored in those they elect, there will always be derailings from well-funded/placed lobbyists who can twist scientific evidence to suit their own claims in front of an ignorant, decision making authority.

I wonder what the state-of-play regarding scientific background is for the US elected reps?
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Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #454 on: January 18, 2013, 11:48:11 am »
Aye, you're right - you can't expect politicians to take appropriate measures if they don't understand the science or how science works. Add to that problems with journalism and we won't be seeing any action taken against climate change any time soon. Monbiot (sorry Rojo, he does occasionally make good points ;) ) pointed out some time ago that there were very few science graduates writing about scientific/environmental issues, and in the US there are very few environmental reporters left.

This means that ideology dominates and we're left with misrepresentations, misunderstanding and downright dishonesty. I'm not sure how we're going to get out of this, let's just hope it won't be too late when we (or if we ever) do.

I'm not sure what the situation's like in the US. But they do have a system which allows the likes of Monckton, who has no scientific training and claims to have found cures for MS, the flu and herpes as well as having cured himself of Graves' disease, to appear in front of the senate to give evidence on climate change. I'm no expert on how things work in the US but this is worrying, to say the least.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #455 on: January 22, 2013, 03:43:26 pm »
Koch funded study confirms scientific findings re anthropogenic cause for warming, and correlates with IPCC for 2.5F temp rise.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/01/20/1474571/koch-funded-study-finds-25f-warming-of-land-since-1750-is-manmade-solar-forcing-does-not-appear-to-contribute/?mobile=nc

http://www.scitechnol.com/GIGS/GIGS-1-101.pdf

Quote
… solar forcing does not appear to contribute to the observed global warming of the past 250 years; the entire change can be modeled by a sum of volcanism and a single anthropogenic [human-made] proxy.


Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #456 on: January 22, 2013, 08:24:31 pm »
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/climate-change-obama-can-believe-in-8462290.html

Climate change Obama can believe in

Quote
It ran to 2,094 words. But for many observers, Barack Obama’s second inaugural address was all about just two of them: climate change. The President’s decision to make  global warming a key theme of his speech has sparked new hope that the world may be able, at last, to mount a truly global response to one of its biggest threats.

The President sprung a surprise by devoting more words to the climate threat than to any other specific policy, signalling he would make it a personal mission of his second administration. He promised: “We will respond to the threat of climate change, knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations.”

He went on to take a swipe at the sceptics and highlighted the extreme weather events of the last year, including the drought and Hurricane Sandy, which, while not directly attributable to global warming, are consistent with predictions of what will happen in a world of rising temperatures – and which have turned many American minds back to the climate question...

...more at link

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #457 on: January 29, 2013, 09:15:30 pm »
http://websites.psychology.uwa.edu.au/labs/cogscience/documents/LskyetalPsychScienceinPressClimateConspiracy.pdf

Essentially, a research paper (by of University Western Australia) into why some people are more/less likely to believe the scientific consensus around Climate Science. They surveyed skeptic blogs and collated and published their results on the paper linked above.

Interestingly, they find that the groups most likely to be 'skeptical' are those who strongly believe in Laissez faire, free-market economics. And conspiracy theorists.

Abstract
Quote
Although nearly all domain experts agree that human CO2 emissions are altering the
world's climate, segments of the public remain unconvinced by the scienti c evidence.
Internet blogs have become a vocal platform for climate denial, and bloggers have taken a
prominent and influential role in questioning climate science. We report a survey (N
> 1100) of climate blog users to identify the variables underlying acceptance and rejection
of climate science. Paralleling previous work, we find that endorsement of a laissez-faire
conception of free-market economics predicts rejection of climate science (r ' :80 between
latent constructs). Endorsement of the free market also predicted the rejection of other
established scientific c fi ndings, such as the facts that HIV causes AIDS and that smoking
causes lung cancer. We additionally show that endorsement of a cluster of conspiracy
theories (e.g., that the CIA killed Martin-Luther King or that NASA faked the moon
landing) predicts rejection of climate science as well as the rejection of other scientifi c
findings, above and beyond endorsement of laissez-faire free markets. This provides
empirical confi rmation of previous suggestions that conspiracist ideation contributes to
the rejection of science. Acceptance of science, by contrast, was strongly associated with
the perception of a consensus among scientists.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 09:18:24 pm by RojoLeón »

Offline BFM

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #458 on: March 12, 2013, 01:47:36 pm »
There are many many sources of information that converge upon the conclusion that human activities are having a negative impact on the global climate. This is the global scientific consensus and has been for a long time. Sweeping statements concerning the supposed inaccuracies of predictive mathematical models do not prove or disprove anything. Of scientists who remain skeptical, more consider the mathematical models to be too conservative, meaning that they think that the reality is actually worse than what is reported in the literature. Do you really think that giant multinational corporations are spending billions of dollars to educate the public about the climate change hoax?

Others have said it better than me, so here are a few videos worth watching.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/m9zlt992bU0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/m9zlt992bU0</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wgHqwqoQvVg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/wgHqwqoQvVg</a>
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Offline BUSHMILLS

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #459 on: March 26, 2013, 03:11:44 pm »
http://websites.psychology.uwa.edu.au/labs/cogscience/documents/LskyetalPsychScienceinPressClimateConspiracy.pdf

Essentially, a research paper (by of University Western Australia) into why some people are more/less likely to believe the scientific consensus around Climate Science. They surveyed skeptic blogs and collated and published their results on the paper linked above.

Interestingly, they find that the groups most likely to be 'skeptical' are those who strongly believe in Laissez faire, free-market economics. And conspiracy theorists.

Abstract

And most people who believe in it are likely to be on the left. Like Chomsky, whose speciality is not science but linguistics.

There are zealots on both sides of the debate, unfortunately, and none of them are prepared to admit they may have been wrong. Whatever new bit of evidence comes to light, they merely interpret/twist it to support their own arguments.

The bigger and more important the question, the more childish the debate.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #460 on: March 26, 2013, 03:42:29 pm »
And most people who believe in it are likely to be on the left. Like Chomsky, whose speciality is not science but linguistics.

There are zealots on both sides of the debate, unfortunately, and none of them are prepared to admit they may have been wrong. Whatever new bit of evidence comes to light, they merely interpret/twist it to support their own arguments.

The bigger and more important the question, the more childish the debate.


Surely there's a considerable difference between being on the left and believing in conspiracy theories, no?

I don't disagree that there are zealots on both sides of the argument and it's difficult to have an adult debate. Those who make the debate irrational, though, are mainly those who believe it's all a conspiracy theory, in my opinion. But that may be because I accept the findings of the scientific community and find it difficult to argue with someone who states that's it's all a liberal conspiracy to raise taxes and establish a new world order. There is an awful lot of dishonesty in the debate, and most of it comes from those who reject the science.

Zealots on both sides, yes. But one side is considerably worth than the other in my opinion, which is based on spending far too much time debating the issue. Maybe someone needs to carry out an objective survey on the issue.

Offline BUSHMILLS

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #461 on: March 26, 2013, 04:06:58 pm »
Surely there's a considerable difference between being on the left and believing in conspiracy theories, no?

I don't disagree that there are zealots on both sides of the argument and it's difficult to have an adult debate. Those who make the debate irrational, though, are mainly those who believe it's all a conspiracy theory, in my opinion. But that may be because I accept the findings of the scientific community and find it difficult to argue with someone who states that's it's all a liberal conspiracy to raise taxes and establish a new world order. There is an awful lot of dishonesty in the debate, and most of it comes from those who reject the science.

Zealots on both sides, yes. But one side is considerably worth than the other in my opinion, which is based on spending far too much time debating the issue. Maybe someone needs to carry out an objective survey on the issue.

Conspiracy theories aren't confined to those on the right. They're also bandied about by the left, e.g. "all the sceptics are bankrolled by Big Oil".

Neither side is debating this in good faith, and both keep changing the goal posts. The believers used to cite the unusually hot summers of the 1990s as evidence of man made warming. Now, when the sceptics point to unusually cold winters as evidence to prove their case, the 'believers' accuse them of focussing on 'blips' in weather patterns. They can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #462 on: March 26, 2013, 04:23:47 pm »
Don't disagree with your first point, though I'll point out that there is plenty of evidence that Big Oil is funding misinformation campaigns, and that goes back to the tactics developed by Philip Morris and the tobacco industry. Though it is of course wrong to claim that all contrarians are bankrolled by Big Oil. On the other hand, there's no evidence of climate change being a hoax or that scientists deliberately manipulate data to get the results they want.

I find your use of language very telling. You call people who accept the science believers, and those who reject it sceptics. In response to the point made in your previous post, where do you think this ranks in terms of having an adult debate?

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #463 on: March 26, 2013, 04:43:53 pm »
Don't disagree with your first point, though I'll point out that there is plenty of evidence that Big Oil is funding misinformation campaigns, and that goes back to the tactics developed by Philip Morris and the tobacco industry. Though it is of course wrong to claim that all contrarians are bankrolled by Big Oil. On the other hand, there's no evidence of climate change being a hoax or that scientists deliberately manipulate data to get the results they want.I find your use of language very telling. You call people who accept the science believers, and those who reject it sceptics. In response to the point made in your previous post, where do you think this ranks in terms of having an adult debate?

Well, I'm afraid there is evidence of certain scientists manipulating data, and if you're not aware of it then you haven't been looking hard enough.

I sense that you're trying to pigeonhole me as a 'sceptic'. I'm not....I actually don't know what to believe because I've been lied to by both sides in this debate.

Is "believer" a loaded word? Is "sceptic"? I wouldn't say so ....... if either of them are, they're certainly not as loaded as "denier" (a term often used by people on one side of the debate who call for a, er, rational and grown up argument).

But whatever....if you find the words I use objectionable, I'll use "pro-AGW" and "anti-AGW" instead.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #464 on: March 26, 2013, 05:05:31 pm »
Scientists manipulating data do exist but they are a minority. I've seen no evidence that climate scientists have deliberately manipulated data to get pre-defined results. Even if they do exist, it's worth pointing out that their findings will not withstand the test of time and peer review. So basically there's no evidence of widespread fraud in climate science.

No, I was asking the question because I find your terminology questionable. Accepting science is not about belief, it's about evaluating findings by checking if they are supported by empirical evidence and can be replicated by independent groups using independent methodologies. Which brings us to true scientific scepticism, which has got nothing to do with what contrarians are doing. So in my opinion, the term 'believer' is loaded and the term 'sceptic' cannot apply to those who reject the science without substantiating their position.

But maybe I just need to relax ;)

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #465 on: March 26, 2013, 05:22:08 pm »
Scientists manipulating data do exist but they are a minority. I've seen no evidence that climate scientists have deliberately manipulated data to get pre-defined results. Even if they do exist, it's worth pointing out that their findings will not withstand the test of time and peer review. So basically there's no evidence of widespread fraud in climate science.

No, I was asking the question because I find your terminology questionable. Accepting science is not about belief, it's about evaluating findings by checking if they are supported by empirical evidence and can be replicated by independent groups using independent methodologies. Which brings us to true scientific scepticism, which has got nothing to do with what contrarians are doing. So in my opinion, the term 'believer' is loaded and the term 'sceptic' cannot apply to those who reject the science without substantiating their position.

But maybe I just need to relax ;)

Cheers....good to have a grown up debate.  :)

As I say, I'm something of an agnostic on this. If anything, I'm inclined to believe the main scientific consensus. However, I've just finished the book Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre (well worth a read) and I'm shaking my head at the number of supposedly impartial scientific studies whose outcomes are predetermined by whoever is funding them. And by how many studies, whose results run contrary to what the funders want, never actually see the light of day.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 05:24:29 pm by BUSHMILLS »

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #466 on: March 26, 2013, 05:47:29 pm »
I think the situation with Big Pharma can be compared with what happened with the tobacco industry - the main problem here is vested interests who had a lot to lose and chose to withhold evidence.  Climate research is different in that funding for research is not tied down to one industry with strong vested interests. There are thousands of papers published in the scientific literature, covering decades of research in many disciplines and involving thousands of scientists worldwide. This research has yielded a body of converging evidence and led to the theory of anthropogenic climate change, which is based on established physics and has made many predictions which have been verified. What I'm trying to say, then, is that the situations are completely different. Observations are consistent with what you would expect with an enhanced greenhouse effect, so the likelihood that it's all a sham is pretty low.

Is Bad Pharma good by the way? It's on my wish list but it'll have to wait a wee while.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #467 on: March 26, 2013, 05:54:05 pm »
And most people who believe in it are likely to be on the left. Like Chomsky, whose speciality is not science but linguistics.

There are zealots on both sides of the debate, unfortunately, and none of them are prepared to admit they may have been wrong. Whatever new bit of evidence comes to light, they merely interpret/twist it to support their own arguments.

The bigger and more important the question, the more childish the debate.

You say people most likely to 'believe' in it are on the 'left', like Chomsky.

Straight away you are defining this as being  about, 1) Belief systems, 2) Political/Economic leanings/tendencies, and 3) Framing the 'pro-AGW' side by associating them with a man who is not a climate science expert and is considered (by the right) to be an extreme leftist.

You say there are zealots on both sides, as if on both sides there is an equal number of people who 'believe' first, and check science as an afterthought.

Firstly, have you read through the thread - much of what might be said is there already. Secondly, just because the number of folk for and against in an online debate are roughly equal, and that both sides can be heard making a similar amount of noise, does not mean that is a reflection of the balance of scientific investigation and research.

Lets be clear, straight off the bat: The science has been decided. There is no scientific debate about which side is right - there have been twenty or so publications that challenge the findings of 99% of the worlds climate scientists. Those 99% have published over fourteen thousand articles. So you see, the balance of scientific evidence is just a tiny bit unevenly distributed.

This isn't a right versus left debate. That it is framed that way is a product of think tanks funded by (you guessed it) big fossil fuel companies. It is an effort to polarize the discussion and disengage unbiased critical thinking. And there has been a concerted effort to move discussion away the scientific evidence - because what you see happening is a retrofitting of conclusions to fit political and economic ideology, and there is simply no evidence from the anti crowd to support their conclusions.

And the fossil fuel industry have been very involved. There is no 'theory' here: Cold hard evidence of financial aid being given to conservative think tanks and PR firms. It isn't a coincidence that the majority of 'anti' campaigners and researchers have received monies from groups linked to big oil/coal firms.

It is one of the things I find surprising about any discussion of climate science. I think it is very telling to see what company you keep when you look at both sides. On the Pro side you have almost all of the world's climate scientists. And on the Anti side, you share space with Oil/Gas/Coal Corporations, and with most of the US Republican party.

As much as there might be figures like Noam Chomsky on the Pro side, you have people like Sarah Palin on the Anti side. 

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #468 on: March 26, 2013, 06:33:47 pm »
You can get as worked up as you like, but the science on AGW has not "been decided".

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #469 on: March 26, 2013, 06:41:45 pm »
You can get as worked up as you like, but the science on AGW has not "been decided".

The theory of ACC is the only theory that can explain ongoing warming and other observations though.

I'd recommend you read Merchants of Doubt by Naomi Oreskes, which is an exposé of the way vested interests have worked hard to spread misinformation on various scientific topics and is well documented.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #470 on: March 26, 2013, 06:46:05 pm »
You can get as worked up as you like, but the science on AGW has not "been decided".

Bio is a lot more patient and polite than I am liable to be when poked with a stick - you want to talk to her only, that's grand with me.

You don't want to discuss with me, then don't quote me and color your posts with polarizing rhetoric. I'm happy to talk but if you are here to troll then I'm out.

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #471 on: March 26, 2013, 07:11:05 pm »
Since when did Global Warming become something that only the left in politics is linked with, what a silly comment. The climate change in the last few years in the UK alone is staggering Flooding, Snow into the Spring, Minor Earthquakes, things that were the rarities are now commonplace, the melting of the Arctic and Antarctic caps is not a piece of Fiction you know.
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Offline BUSHMILLS

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #472 on: March 26, 2013, 07:14:13 pm »
Bio is a lot more patient and polite than I am liable to be when poked with a stick - you want to talk to her only, that's grand with me.

You don't want to discuss with me, then don't quote me and color your posts with polarizing rhetoric. I'm happy to talk but if you are here to troll then I'm out.

If you read my posts, you'll actually see that, on balance, I still tend towards the theory of AGW. However, I've grown weary of being lied to by scaremongerers and zealots. It's interesting that I've raised the mildest form of doubt, and you've responded in a hysterical manner by describing it as "polarizing rhetoric", and labelling me as a "troll".

That's the trouble with this debate: there actually IS no debate. The people on both sides of it have closed minds.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #473 on: March 26, 2013, 07:19:08 pm »
There was an interesting article in the Guardian linking the loss of Arctic sea ice to the unusual weather events we've seen in the northern hemisphere. Which of course doesn't bode well for us. Interesting area of research.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #474 on: March 26, 2013, 07:20:14 pm »
That's the trouble with this debate: there actually IS no debate.

I agree with you there - there is no debate. The science is settled and all that is left is shouting the odds by the Anti side.

Offline Roady

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #475 on: March 26, 2013, 07:26:31 pm »
Since when did Global Warming become something that only the left in politics is linked with, what a silly comment. The climate change in the last few years in the UK alone is staggering Flooding, Snow into the Spring, Minor Earthquakes, things that were the rarities are now commonplace, the melting of the Arctic and Antarctic caps is not a piece of Fiction you know.

thats all well and good but thats been happening for hudreds of years.
Giant sponges. That is the answer for flooding.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #476 on: March 26, 2013, 07:26:33 pm »
If you read my posts, you'll actually see that, on balance, I still tend towards the theory of AGW. However, I've grown weary of being lied to by scaremongerers and zealots. It's interesting that I've raised the mildest form of doubt, and you've responded in a hysterical manner by describing it as "polarizing rhetoric", and labelling me as a "troll".

That's the trouble with this debate: there actually IS no debate. The people on both sides of it have closed minds.


As you label people in Science who disagree with your opinions as Zealots and Scaremongers are you a perfect example of the very thing you complain about, I.e. a closed mind
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #477 on: March 26, 2013, 07:29:05 pm »
thats all well and good but thats been happening for hudreds of years.
however the examples of this happening has greatly increased in recent times.

like i said flat earth society, an attitude of i dont believe it so it cannot be going on.
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Offline Roady

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #478 on: March 26, 2013, 07:33:55 pm »
however the examples of this happening has greatly increased in recent times.

like i said flat earth society, an attitude of i dont believe it so it cannot be going on.

dontget me wrong Geoff. im not really here nor there on this subject.I do beleive we have had an effect on our climate but i also beleve i is nowhere near as much as people are led to beleive.
Giant sponges. That is the answer for flooding.

Offline BUSHMILLS

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Re: Climate change is here — and worse than we thought - Discuss
« Reply #479 on: March 26, 2013, 07:35:24 pm »
Since when did Global Warming become something that only the left in politics is linked with, what a silly comment. The climate change in the last few years in the UK alone is staggering Flooding, Snow into the Spring, Minor Earthquakes, things that were the rarities are now commonplace, the melting of the Arctic and Antarctic caps is not a piece of Fiction you know.

Oh dear, can we go back to first principles, please, ie, read what I actually wrote? I did not say "only the left" believe in global warming. Someone said that most people who style themselves as 'sceptics' happen to be on the right, and I pointed out that most who believe in it happen to be on the left.

Are you seriously arguing against that? It's left wing orthodoxy.

By the way, I'm aware of snow in the spring...I'm up to  my knees in it. But a few years ago the fervent pro-AGW lobby were telling me that snow was a thing of the past, and that our springs/summers would be marked by searing heat. Interesting example here from the Independent in 2000: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

I'm happy to accept that the current abnormally cold weather is a blip, and we can't extrapolate any wider significance from it. But if we were now experiencing an equally abnormal heatwave I can guarantee that people like the author of that article - and you - would be presenting it as definitive evidence of AGW.