Author Topic: Climate Emergency is already here. How much worse it gets is still up to us (?)  (Read 381111 times)

Offline Nobby Reserve

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So we're fucked, then, because there's not a government on the planet that's going to make any substantial changes.

The issue is that countries in the developed world are saying "We've cut our emissions and will continue to do so; you people in the developing world need to stop increasing yours."

And countries in the developing world saying "The developed world has had all the economic benefits of industrialisation for decades and the GHG's from that have caused this shit in the first place, so why should we be denied industrialisation and be able to get to the same point as you lot?"

Unfortunately, it's akin to an analogy of a lifeboat that can only hold, say, 50 people; even just one person more and it will sink. There's 50 people already on the boat who got there first but another 50 people in the water who will drown if they don't get on the boat. But if any do get on the boat, everybody drowns. How do you square that?

Of course, a big factor (not really talked about) in the developed world being able to cut GHG's over the past 30-40 years is that they have exported a large production of their manufacturing process to cheap-labour countries so that corporations can make even bigger profits. But that also exports the emission of GHG's.

The solution cannot happen in this world where corporate hegemony rules and dictates policy to governments in the vast majority of countries, whether in the developed or developing worlds. They are solely focused on maximising profit, as that is their entire reason for existing. And they're incredibly short-termist (especially the American model, with its quarterly results obsession, which has been adopted almost universally in the UK, and to varying degrees across other countries)

The only hope for humanity and the world is to pull all production/manufacturing, power generation and transport under a single control to serve the interests of humanity in general and not for the economic benefit of a relatively tiny number of owners of capital.

And there's not a cat in hell's chance of that happening.

So we're fucked, as you say.

Best we can hope is that it doesn't happen in the lifetime of ourselves, our children, our grandchildren. But what a fucking legacy.

I suspect that "votes" and "elections" will become a thing of a past once shit really hits the fan. I also think wars are going to happen... I guess a nuclear winter would help cool things down a bit, looking on the bright side!

Two excellent points.

As I've said before, the first really serious effects will come from shifting weather patterns and the impacts these have on both droughts and floods. Off the back of that there'll be internal unrest, civil wars, mass migrations, more authoritarian governments. As mass migrations spill into other countries, it spreads the unrest. I doubt there'd be a nuclear war, but who knows what kind of shithouses and nutcases will find themselves in power.

I've also said that the UK is at a relative advantage to cope with the impacts of climate change. We are in a temperate zone on the western edge of a continental landmass, with a diverse geography. We're also an island, which gives us more control over who can and cannot enter the country.

How does the UK react to a mass migration that spreads across Europe? Does it go self-serving and pull up the drawbridge? Or does it be altruistic and help take in millions of people who are the victims of drought, famine, war? But doesn't the latter risk a version of the lifeboat analogy? We're a small, already overpopulated island with limited food production capacity and very much lacking in energy security (relying on importing fuel), and with limited natural resources. We've seen with the whole Brexit & 'red wall' idiocy how quickly people turn nationalist with propaganda that blames 'furriners'. You can easily imagine how nationalism would be ramped up many notches higher still if a government didn't slam the door shut and deploy gunships in the Channel.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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I suspect that "votes" and "elections" will become a thing of a past once shit really hits the fan. I also think wars are going to happen... I guess a nuclear winter would help cool things down a bit, looking on the bright side!

Whilst I agree that war is nearly due, it won't be for the dick-swinging exercise that it is always been. It would probably be for clean drinking water, and would not involve any soldiers on the ground or missiles in the air. It will be fought digitally, and we are already seeing glimpses here and there. That could result in a Nuclear Winter and an eerie winter 1970s and 1980s feel.

As for climate change? Nah. Call me a pessimist or realist or whatever. Humans are not capable of doing anything for collective gains. Our actions today might postpone the doom. But that's about it. Maybe 30 or 40 years at max. We will be back to our previous selves raping and plundering nature without realizing that it's a war that humans can never ever win! But I think that's up for discussion in another thread.

Offline scatman

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Nah Sian is right, we are fucked. Some developing countries have made great strides like Costa Rica but we neeed everyone on board to stop this disaster. It feels ominous and that's never going to happen. I mean we always praise the Germans for stuff like this normally but aren't even they opening new coal stations?
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Offline 24/7

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Whilst I agree that war is nearly due, it won't be for the dick-swinging exercise that it is always been. It would probably be for clean drinking water, and would not involve any soldiers on the ground or missiles in the air. It will be fought digitally, and we are already seeing glimpses here and there. That could result in a Nuclear Winter and an eerie winter 1970s and 1980s feel.
Correct - it's already started.

Offline wampa1

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Yeah exactly. I just don't hold any hope in the governments and corporations of the world doing what needs to be done to halt/reverse this. I feel like our only chance is for a major scientific/tech breakthrough (like a plausible way of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere).
https://theconversation.com/engineers-have-built-machines-to-scrub-co-from-the-air-but-will-it-halt-climate-change-152975

Offline conman

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Serious question..

Considering that iInflation keeps society on a treadmill of ever higher prices and needing more consumption and more production....forever.

How is possible to solve climate change from an economic system that REQUIRES inflation?

Offline RainbowFlick

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Yeah exactly. I just don't hold any hope in the governments and corporations of the world doing what needs to be done to halt/reverse this. I feel like our only chance is for a major scientific/tech breakthrough (like a plausible way of removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere).

Agree. Whether scientists can do it at the scale necessary, it's unclear.

I'm unconvinced we'll see any drastic action. Billionaires are too busy flying into space than using their wealth for the greater good and governments are more or less a shitshow across the globe who seem far too tentative to promise anything drastic which is needed.
YNWA.

Offline Elmo!

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Serious question..

Considering that iInflation keeps society on a treadmill of ever higher prices and needing more consumption and more production....forever.

How is possible to solve climate change from an economic system that REQUIRES inflation?

Please don't turn this into another Bitcoin thread.

Offline RainbowFlick

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Please don't turn this into another Bitcoin thread.

 ;D

Bitcoin solves everything, apparently.
YNWA.

Offline conman

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Please don't turn this into another Bitcoin thread.
Won't be. Just asking a very genuine question.

Offline scatman

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We're gonna be reliant on someone inventing a huge way of performing carbon recapture.
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Offline wampa1

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We're gonna be reliant on someone inventing a huge way of performing carbon recapture.
I already posted that such machines already in use. Granted there's a long way to go before it makes a dent but the technology is there.

I think this will be the route that governments go down as the solution is simple - throw money at it and then sit back.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 10:31:31 am by wampa1 »

Offline 24/7

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Something like this maybe?


Offline wampa1

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Well this is the one that's proposed to be built in Texas making it the largest one in the world:


Offline Elmo!

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I already posted that such machines already in use. Granted there's a long way to go before it makes a dent but the technology is there.

I think this will be the route that governments go down as the solution is simple - throw money at it and then sit back.

Plenty of opportunity to funnel taxpayers money into their mates pockets as well.

Offline wampa1

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Plenty of opportunity to funnel taxpayers money into their mates pockets as well.
It's win-win!

Offline Zlen

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It's a situation that requires an unprecedented amount of selflesness and sacrifice for the greater good - from individual to community and finally international level. Which is exactly why we'll likely fail to make a meaningful dent in carbon emissions and spiral into further divisions, wars and bickering as consequences pile up. Tech won't save us. Only working together - humans first, and discovering a broad sense of unity can save us. Of this I'm afraid, we're utterlly incapable. We ran out of runway before we matured as a species. It happens I guess, perhaps it happens daily across the universe and it might be the main cause of extinction of somewhat intelligent species. You can't really run away from yourself, and we are about to get the bill for a night of heavy drinking. I'm mostly sorry for my daughters generation and all who'll follow her, who will not only miss out on so much we took for granted - but will also live in a much more precarious world and struggle to fix the mess we left behind instead of enjoying the fruits of our labour.

Offline conman

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The basic problem of climate change is that we are removing too much carbon from below ground and putting it into the atmosphere, where it raises temperatures and causes havoc on the climate & enviornment.

We will continue extracting carbon from the ground at an ever accellerating basis, so the solution to try to suck it back out of the atmosphere at the same rate is a fools errand.

Carbon recapture can certainly contribute to reducing carbon polution & should be persued, as should green energy solutions - but they have their own problems too.

Offline conman

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It's a situation that requires an unprecedented amount of selflesness and sacrifice for the greater good - from individual to community and finally international level. Which is exactly why we'll likely fail to make a meaningful dent in carbon emissions and spiral into further divisions, wars and bickering as consequences pile up. Tech won't save us. Only working together - humans first, and discovering a broad sense of unity can save us. Of this I'm afraid, we're utterlly incapable. We ran out of runway before we matured as a species. It happens I guess, perhaps it happens daily across the universe and it might be the main cause of extinction of somewhat intelligent species. You can't really run away from yourself, and we are about to get the bill for a night of heavy drinking. I'm mostly sorry for my daughters generation and all who'll follow her, who will not only miss out on so much we took for granted - but will also live in a much more precarious world and struggle to fix the mess we left behind instead of enjoying the fruits of our labour.

It's a situation that requires an unprecedented amount of selflesness and sacrifice for the greater good - from individual to community and finally international level..... Only working together - humans first, and discovering a broad sense of unity can save us. Of this I'm afraid, we're utterlly incapable. 

Totally agree. The key is to reducing consumption at all levels. This is what my original question was getting at. It's all well in good that we say we need to reduce consumption (which we do), but as you allude to - It's another thing doing it especially when the very system we live in demands it.

Quote
Tech won't save us.
Nothing outright will save us, but tech can help a lot.


Offline Zlen

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Yes, tech would be the key element, I meant more in a sense that it alone won't be the silver bullet. It can give us the edge needed, but only if we manage to put aside bickering and differences and make a planet wide plan that will see countries working together, sharing knowledge, resources and money, as well as being honest and dilligent in fulfilling their end of the bargain. The problem really is political, which is a damn shame as it's the arena that comes with a huge amount of baggage and distrust. People need to step up the pressure on legislators in democratic countries, no votes for anyone who isn't fighting like hell to fix this mess. But even with that, a meaningful agreement with non-western countries is needed to start making progress.

Offline conman

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Yes, tech would be the key element, I meant more in a sense that it alone won't be the silver bullet. It can give us the edge needed, but only if we manage to put aside bickering and differences and make a planet wide plan that will see countries working together, sharing knowledge, resources and money, as well as being honest and dilligent in fulfilling their end of the bargain. The problem really is political, which is a damn shame as it's the arena that comes with a huge amount of baggage and distrust. People need to step up the pressure on legislators in democratic countries, no votes for anyone who isn't fighting like hell to fix this mess. But even with that, a meaningful agreement with non-western countries is needed to start making progress.
Agreed. It is in part a political problem. Politicians typically make things worse - they could have made an effort years ago, but they didn't. Heck, most are still doing nothing now. We all know they won't solve this and trying to put carbon back into the ground won't solve this either.

Back to your previous point about our society being utterlly incapable of working together for the greater good. The only inventive that truly changes the habits of people are monetary incentives. Monetary incentives can enourange people to reduce their consumption, can encourage  companies to persue sustainability over profit and to spearhead the growth of green alternatives. I'm not referring to handouts/grants when I say economic incentives btw.

This is an economic problem more than it is a political problem.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Serious question..

Considering that iInflation keeps society on a treadmill of ever higher prices and needing more consumption and more production....forever.

How is possible to solve climate change from an economic system that REQUIRES inflation?
Something I've pondered a few times - how do we develop an alternative economic system which is not dependent upon the confidence derived from 'growth'? Because, surely, the world economy must retract for a very long time to tackle climate change.

Another thing I've been thinking/worrying about: given human nature, the hard decisions will continue to be pushed back into the long grass. The only solution I can foresee is a technological one (maybe). But, even if possible, for how long will this hold out until the next bottle-neck (not enough land mass to feed the world, depletion of mineral resources, etc.)? If makes me wonder if the solution to the Fermi paradox is indeed that are no other advanced civilizations near enough and existing at the same time as us because they do, indeed, kill off themselves during their development (not far into the future from where we are now).
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Please don't turn this into another Bitcoin thread.
:D
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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We're gonna be reliant on someone inventing a huge way of performing carbon recapture.
Or, ways to cut down solar energy reaching the planet (in orbit or (L1) Lagrange Point sun shades, that kind of thing - maybe). All a bit pie in the sky though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_sunshade
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Offline [new username under construction]

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Well this is the one that's proposed to be built in Texas making it the largest one in the world:



Meh


Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Our consumption has fueled the depletion of natural resources at a scale thats unfathomable. Technology could capture CO2 and replenish O2, how is it going to replenish the depleted flora and fauna? How is it going to replenish forest cover? How is it going to provide for natural water?

Offline Red Raw

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Sorry, but I can't agree with the naysayers, I don't want to start an argument about how hard it is (I know) but in the interests of balance I am posting to now to illustrate that not everyone shares the opinion that it is all fucked so we had just as well pack it in.

The IPCC report is reasonably clear that it is within our power to act to save us from the worst outcomes. This is far from an all or nothing situation and there are significant advantages to restricting warming to 1.5°C compared to 2°C. Yes, a concerted effort is required, and no we haven't got it yet, but literally all the technologies to make a difference are available to us now - all that is lacking is the political will.

The UK Climate Change Committee (CCC) has shown that acting sooner rather than later is an investment not a cost - unsurprisingly leaving things later reduces our options and makes things more expensive. There are no magic bullet technologies (hydrogen, small modular nuclear, direct air capture etc.) so 'wait and see' is not a credible policy. CCC estimate the cost of decarbonising the UK economy by 2050 will be between 1-2% of GDP between now and 2050 (i.e. fuck all). Yes, the UK is relatively small but, along with others, we can develop and demonstrate the technical potential and pathways. The UK green economy is already four times the size of the manufacturing sector, and where businesses succeed, the money men and politicians will follow, eventually.

I believe it is not only possible to avoid the worst effects of climate change while improving the lifestyles of the poorest billions, but it is essential - improving access to clean water and energy along with education and child survival rates are the fundamental tools for a sustainable global population. It should come as no surprise that the poorest countries are responsible for the least emissions and have every right to aspire to better things. It is up to us to ensure that they do not have to follow our fossil fuel trajectory to get there.

If you have an hour to spare do watch former WHO statistician, the late great Hans Rosling, to get an idea of the dynamics of population, money and emissions (if not see 35:50-39:45 and 51:50-58:10 to get the gist). As Hans himself would say, 'don't die of ignorance'.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/FACK2knC08E" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/FACK2knC08E</a>

Offline BobOnATank

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I know it been raised before but protecting the ozone layer had many of these issues, maybe not quite as large but it did have unprecedented levels of political cooperation backed by technology improvements across a range of areas that removed CFC usage on a much faster timeline than any dared predict at the outset. The same can happen again *if* the political will is there as well as the investment - done at a global rather than country level to prevent money going to mates pockets.

For example when EV cars are the same price as the petrol & diesel equivalents they are finished, non-ev cars will fall off a cliff, investment in infrastructure and legislation will accelerate that change. Similar to the new fridges during the CFC removal, they were a better product so people switched enmasse.

Yes one change isn't going to resolve the issue but an accumulative affect across multiple streams on change can do.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Totally agree. The key is to reducing consumption at all levels. This is what my original question was getting at. It's all well in good that we say we need to reduce consumption (which we do), but as you allude to - It's another thing doing it especially when the very system we live in demands it.
Nothing outright will save us, but tech can help a lot.


Almost all developed countries are reducing emissions.

But these reductions are at least cancelled out by increases in developing countries.

India now have the 3rd biggest total level of emissions (equivalent to the entire EU+UK); Brazil are 6th; Indonesia 8th. The additional problem with Brazil's emissions are that the biggest single emissions cause is burning rainforest to clear for agriculture. All are on an upwards trajectory.

None have any solid commitment to reduce or even freeze current levels - indeed, the government noises are more likely to be a defiant 'don't you in the West dare to lecture us' than acceptance that we all need to work to reduce overall GHG emissions.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline conman

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Fair points Nobby, but i'd counter that with the view that we live in a globalised world and that the actions of those developing nations are often at the behest of developed nations.

Do you have some data on the developed nations cuttin emissions?

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Almost all developed countries are reducing emissions.

By which you mean "are shifting their emissions to China and other countries where the cost of manufacturing is low". Out of sight, out of mind.

Offline RainbowFlick

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Sorry, but I can't agree with the naysayers, I don't want to start an argument about how hard it is (I know) but in the interests of balance I am posting to now to illustrate that not everyone shares the opinion that it is all fucked so we had just as well pack it in.

The IPCC report is reasonably clear that it is within our power to act to save us from the worst outcomes. This is far from an all or nothing situation and there are significant advantages to restricting warming to 1.5°C compared to 2°C. Yes, a concerted effort is required, and no we haven't got it yet, but literally all the technologies to make a difference are available to us now - all that is lacking is the political will.

The UK Climate Change Committee (CCC) has shown that acting sooner rather than later is an investment not a cost - unsurprisingly leaving things later reduces our options and makes things more expensive. There are no magic bullet technologies (hydrogen, small modular nuclear, direct air capture etc.) so 'wait and see' is not a credible policy. CCC estimate the cost of decarbonising the UK economy by 2050 will be between 1-2% of GDP between now and 2050 (i.e. fuck all). Yes, the UK is relatively small but, along with others, we can develop and demonstrate the technical potential and pathways. The UK green economy is already four times the size of the manufacturing sector, and where businesses succeed, the money men and politicians will follow, eventually.

I believe it is not only possible to avoid the worst effects of climate change while improving the lifestyles of the poorest billions, but it is essential - improving access to clean water and energy along with education and child survival rates are the fundamental tools for a sustainable global population. It should come as no surprise that the poorest countries are responsible for the least emissions and have every right to aspire to better things. It is up to us to ensure that they do not have to follow our fossil fuel trajectory to get there.

If you have an hour to spare do watch former WHO statistician, the late great Hans Rosling, to get an idea of the dynamics of population, money and emissions (if not see 35:50-39:45 and 51:50-58:10 to get the gist). As Hans himself would say, 'don't die of ignorance'.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/FACK2knC08E" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/FACK2knC08E</a>

I don't think it's necessarily a case of people being non-believers that we can 'fix' this, in fact I believe it is doable, it's just people looking at the very obvious issues in our current political and economic structures that mean corporations and governments will make changes at a much slower rate than necessary without treating it as a priority. there's only so much emission cutting people can do on an individual level. governments need to be making radical changes for this to work.
YNWA.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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By which you mean "are shifting their emissions to China and other countries where the cost of manufacturing is low". Out of sight, out of mind.


Which is a point I made in my response to you yesterday

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=296645.msg17893187#msg17893187

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Fair points Nobby, but i'd counter that with the view that we live in a globalised world and that the actions of those developing nations are often at the behest of developed nations.

Do you have some data on the developed nations cuttin emissions?


Sure.

This is a great table using data from the Emissions Database for Global Atmospheric Research (EDGAR). Click the year columns to sort:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

Using, say, 1990 as a starting year and comparing to 2018 (latest data listed), the UK has reduced from 9.7 metric tons per capita to 5.6.

USA 19.3 to 16.1

Germany 10.6 to 9.1 (and, after Fukushima, replaced its nuclear energy programme with mainly fossil fuel-based generation)

France 6.4 to 5.0

Most other developed countries have reduced; Canada and Australia have bucked the trend and had increases.






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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Sorry, but I can't agree with the naysayers, I don't want to start an argument about how hard it is (I know) but in the interests of balance I am posting to now to illustrate that not everyone shares the opinion that it is all fucked so we had just as well pack it in.

The IPCC report is reasonably clear that it is within our power to act to save us from the worst outcomes. This is far from an all or nothing situation and there are significant advantages to restricting warming to 1.5°C compared to 2°C. Yes, a concerted effort is required, and no we haven't got it yet, but literally all the technologies to make a difference are available to us now - all that is lacking is the political will.

The UK Climate Change Committee (CCC) has shown that acting sooner rather than later is an investment not a cost - unsurprisingly leaving things later reduces our options and makes things more expensive. There are no magic bullet technologies (hydrogen, small modular nuclear, direct air capture etc.) so 'wait and see' is not a credible policy. CCC estimate the cost of decarbonising the UK economy by 2050 will be between 1-2% of GDP between now and 2050 (i.e. fuck all). Yes, the UK is relatively small but, along with others, we can develop and demonstrate the technical potential and pathways. The UK green economy is already four times the size of the manufacturing sector, and where businesses succeed, the money men and politicians will follow, eventually.

I believe it is not only possible to avoid the worst effects of climate change while improving the lifestyles of the poorest billions, but it is essential - improving access to clean water and energy along with education and child survival rates are the fundamental tools for a sustainable global population. It should come as no surprise that the poorest countries are responsible for the least emissions and have every right to aspire to better things. It is up to us to ensure that they do not have to follow our fossil fuel trajectory to get there.

If you have an hour to spare do watch former WHO statistician, the late great Hans Rosling, to get an idea of the dynamics of population, money and emissions (if not see 35:50-39:45 and 51:50-58:10 to get the gist). As Hans himself would say, 'don't die of ignorance'.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/FACK2knC08E" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/FACK2knC08E</a>

The video is very enlightening and well worth a watch.
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Offline skipper757

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Almost all developed countries are reducing emissions.

But these reductions are at least cancelled out by increases in developing countries.

India now have the 3rd biggest total level of emissions (equivalent to the entire EU+UK); Brazil are 6th; Indonesia 8th. The additional problem with Brazil's emissions are that the biggest single emissions cause is burning rainforest to clear for agriculture. All are on an upwards trajectory.

None have any solid commitment to reduce or even freeze current levels - indeed, the government noises are more likely to be a defiant 'don't you in the West dare to lecture us' than acceptance that we all need to work to reduce overall GHG emissions.


India also has 1.3 billion people.  The entire EU+UK population is nowhere near that.  This is a population and wealth issue as much as it is an emissions issue.

On a per capita basis, India is way down the list.  So are Brazil (213 million people), China (1.4 billion people), Bangladesh (165 million people), Pakistan (221 million people), Indonesia (273 million people), and Nigeria (206 million people).

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

If you want to look at GDP per capita and living standards, all those countries are going to be low.  Bangladesh produces 0.47 tons per capita of CO2 emissions (US produces 15.5, UK 5.6).  Bangladesh has a GDP per capita 1/10 the US and 1/8 the UK.  India is going to be similar.  Costa Rica, an example of a eco-conscious, eco-tourism driven country mentioned above, produces way more Co2 per capita basis than a country like Bangladesh (Costa Rica has 5 million people; Bangladesh, in an area 3x Costa Rica, has more than 30x the population).  Costa Rica's GDP per capita is also 4x Bangladesh's.

The problem is, the majority of the most-populated countries around the world are not developed.  Many of them have far lower living standards and are far less industrialized.  Their rapid growth in emissions is expected.  China's CO2 emissions trajectory has been skyward (and will probably continue to be so despite a massive amount of investment in renewables and public transit), but that's also coincided with hundreds of millions of people being lifted out of poverty.

The fact is, when the developed countries of the world industrialized and alleviated much of its own population from poverty and increased living standards, it never had to make the tradeoff of environmental impact vs. economic growth.  Now, the same developed countries are telling others, countries that are far poorer, what to do in this case.

The globe is connected anyway.  Canada and Australia have ridiculously high CO2 output per capita because a huge chunk of their economic activity is energy-related, which often ends up in places like China.  But a large chunk of the industrial activity in China also ends up back in the hands western consumers (and isn't calculated as such) as well as other Southeast Asian countries (China moving to a more service-based economy and Chinese companies building factories in Vietnam).

So who needs to cut their emissions?  It's a global issue that everyone would need to work together in, but you can see why developing countries don't like lectures.  They see developed countries' citizens driving cars everywhere, traveling multiple times a year, flying internationally, eating a lot of steak, and generally living great lives.  Yet, it's also on the developing countries' shoulders to slow their rise to reach these standards?  The answer is actually yes, but it's a fairness issue.  How does India reach the living standards of the UK without increasing emissions?  Or are you saying they can't?  "For the sake of the planet."  But that didn't stop the UK or the US in the 50s or 80s or the 1800s.  Didn't see Reagan and Thatcher say, "hang on, let's pump the brakes on capitalism for more sustainable practices."  But now that non-developed countries are lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, it's all unsustainable.  (I mean, it's true, but you can see why they'd be annoyed).

It's difficult because of the system we have around the globe.  If we cut back on consumption, it only angers the masses.  Not only would they be restricted in what they can consume, they'd also suffer economic consequences, both in employment as well as retirement savings/etc.  Sacrifices have to be made.  Imagine telling someone that's 55-years old in America right now, that growth and consumption needs to slow down.  That they can't partake in activities that are bad for the planet (like taking a cruise).  Or that the slowdown in economic activity will reduce their hard-earned retirement savings by a significant amount.  But hey, we're reducing CO2 emissions and even if you live in a tiny apartment with no car and no travel, you're still better off than people in poor developing countries.  We're in this together, right?  Good luck selling that message.

At the same time, that won't help developing countries either.  It's hard to develop if economic activity slows down globally.  Places like China and India will stagnate in growth and that's bad from a poverty/living standards perspective.  People talk about Africa's young population, resources, and development with hope.  But that's harder to achieve if we just cut back economic activity.

The thing is, if developing countries can grow but use more environmental-friendly means (you can't use the technologies today that 1870 Britain used), that's the best humanity might be able to hope for.  There aren't major climate-deniers in governments of China or India as far as I know, and both countries invest heavily in green energy.  China's got something like 99% of all EV buses in the world and a huge chunk of the rail/subway development in the 21st century has been in China.  The cost of getting a regular car in a major city can be prohibitive anyhow.  India can take the same path, as can Bangladesh and others.  Nigeria's been dependent on oil, but maybe it can also shift (it wants to be tech hub).  At the same time, every set of factories that spring up today should be more efficient than those in the past.

But the fact that the vast majority of the population around the world have significantly lower living standards or are far less industrialized and commercialized will mean that developing countries need economic growth, and that's going to have an impact on emissions.  They have to do it more sustainably, but will it be enough?  Who knows.

But lectures from developed countries are not going to fix it.  The fact that Australian and American voters routinely vote in politicians that deny the impact of climate change will also not be lost on developing countries.  Nor the fact that many developed countries (even green groups) have anti-nuclear factions. 

Put it this way, if you're the leader of one of these developing countries, how do you grow your economy?  After all, while you may be judged on green policies, you'll also be judged on how you improve people's lives.  If a fossil fuel plant is the cheapest more reliable way to power a major city/county/state and is the best way to attract businesses and industry in the short term, would you honestly say "no thanks, I'll wait for renewables to be more viable."

Technology will be a major focus, but that still needs to be balanced with development.  Unless developed countries are willing to share the wealth.  I mean, average people in developed countries paying significantly more taxes to help poor countries set up sustainable energy grids for free would be nice.  Let's see how that polls.
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Offline filopastry

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In short don't hold your breath on anything particularly radical being introduced in the UK to deal with emissions

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In short don't hold your breath on anything particularly radical being introduced in the UK to deal with emissions
Hence what I said above, ultimately it's a monetary problem moreso than a political problem. Though politicians either must play a big part or get out of the way (in an ideal world).

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snip


I'm not disagreeing with you on the moral/ethical dilemma. They're points I made in my post yesterday.

But it illustrates just why this is insolvable.

The atmosphere doesn't take into account the population of countries, just the total amount of GHG's. If those countries you list double their emissions-per-capita over the next 10/15 years (more than feasible, given the trend) they still won't be as high as the UK (which sits way down in 64th place, by the way). Yet will be pumping an additional ~7,500 megatons of GHG's into the atmosphere every single year.


So when you ask whether India and other developing countries should forego industrialisation and economic advancement 'for the sake of the planet', the answer is that the moral/ethical argument is irrelevant. If they do, then they and all of us are hugely impacted.

(I would also point out that countries like India and Brazil have immense wealth inequality, so before their governments start preaching about the need to increase GHG emissions in order to lift their poverty-stricken masses out of poverty, I'd suggest they look at the parasitic billionaire scumbags in their countries hoarding the financial rewards from the labour of millions of others)

I'd also say that countries in the developing world are largely going to bear the brunt of climate change impacts, so it's in their own interests not to keep increasing GHG emissions.

None of which is to say that we in the developed world should not continue to reduce our GHG emissions.

We all need to play our part.

But we won't.
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Offline filopastry

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What is the plan at present for the future of energy generation in the UK and EU anyway? Obviously Germany abandoning nuclear hasn't helped on the emissions front in the short/medium term.

In terms of renewables are there opportunities for significant solar power operations in North Africa which could be exported to Europe (although the political instability in North Africa probably doesn't help), or other large scale projects, I am guessing the issue with renewables in Europe generally is the variability of supply, if you get cloudy weather with little wind then both solar and wind power don't generate a great deal.