Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 95258 times)

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #560 on: May 21, 2012, 10:12:55 PM »
If we'd qualified for the Champs League? Give over, you're just being a drama queen lad.

Methinks he was fishing. But considering the insanity of this thread 1 + 1 might well equal 3. It has in arguments in other threads for the last few days ;)

Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #561 on: May 21, 2012, 10:13:18 PM »
Well guys, 14 pages in - has anyone changed their minds or has this run its course? I'm starting to lose it here  :D

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #562 on: May 21, 2012, 10:14:10 PM »
If we'd qualified for the Champs League? Give over, you're just being a drama queen lad.

I actually think he might have a point. You ever think maybe FSG just wanted to get rid of Kenny, nothing to do with performance.

I'd like to think otherwise but it seems to me like they are trying to revamp the club and can't do that with history standing in its way. And Kenny Dalglish is one of the biggest reminders of how successful we used to be.

After all the owners statements around the time of the cup finals would suggest that it was there main priority and now all of a sudden there is a change of tune.
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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #563 on: May 21, 2012, 10:15:02 PM »
If we'd qualified for the Champs League? Give over, you're just being a drama queen lad.
I'm sure he would. FSG have a structure they want to put in place an Kenny didn't fit in. They had to take him after Hodgson to unite the club but he was never long term for them
That's it. He's not FSG's man, never was, they were mid way through a season and had been in charge of the club for a short amount of time, they went with the fans and put Kenny in. I also feel that they wouldn't have wanted to give Kenny a 3 year contract, but after the end of the season we had and the optimism the club suddenly had, they couldn't really say no.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #564 on: May 21, 2012, 10:16:05 PM »
Yes of course it has - players were going to leave Arsenal anyway - being in the champions league means less of them have left but its not the be-all-and-end-all of why a player is at a club.

Are you seriously arguing that being a Champions League team isn't a draw for top level professional football players? Bizarre.

Who are the top players at the peak of their game who have gone to Arsenal in the last few years? I can't think of any.
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #565 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:40 PM »
Who are the top players at the peak of their game who have gone to Arsenal in the last few years? I can't think of any.

That's only because of Arsenal's strategy not because they couldnt get them if they wanted to.

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #566 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:54 PM »
I'm sure he would. FSG have a structure they want to put in place an Kenny didn't fit in. They had to take him after Hodgson to unite the club but he was never long term for them

I can't imagine they'd have made that decision if he'd met their objectives even if they did want a change as you suggest. If we're being cynical they'd have made the other changes they wanted and then just waited until Kenny had gone through a bad patch and then struck.

I personally can't see they'd have been stupid enough to remove a manager who met their objectives and was such a fan favourite, they couldn't have felt they'd win especially as pointed out elsewhere their footballing knowledge is not enough for them to have certainty any replacement they chose would outperform Kenny and not leave them open to outright ridicule.

Who knows though?

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #567 on: May 21, 2012, 10:17:59 PM »
Who are the top players at the peak of their game who have gone to Arsenal in the last few years? I can't think of any.
None, because the money hasn't been available IMO, it's gone on the stadium.

Offline Red Genius

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #568 on: May 21, 2012, 10:18:07 PM »

The interesting point about Villa is that they tried to do what some on here are suggesting - build a team on the cheap and sack off the small competitions for top four. It's a shit model and doesn't work.

I think Tottenham are a better example, they have spent years in mid-table wilderness, before recently building towards one of top number of clubs in the league. They focused on buying young talented players, playing them and developing those players - whilst also dining at a table where proven players who perhaps had a year or two playing under poor form or out of favour, took a risk on under performing proven talent in the hope they could extract that ability again.

I think we need to be smart, and combine investment in young promising players but also look out for those players where an opportunity can be taken advantage of.

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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #569 on: May 21, 2012, 10:19:01 PM »
Well I had a spurs fan/ mate  given me shit last week about mickey mouse cup doesn't get you in the CL , guess what he is  fucking quiet now!

As Alan and the rest keep trying to say We  want to win the lot, which means trying to win every game not deciding fuck this let's not bother, because that leads to all the eggs in one basket and finding them smashed!
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #570 on: May 21, 2012, 10:20:06 PM »
I guess potentially they may, yes. We'll never know.

Going back to the original question, I'd take champs league qualification over the league cup every year. I understand fully that this doesn't fit in with the history of the club and the roots of football. But football has changed. As a Liverpool fan I'd rather us get into the champs league so that we can collect money to build a better squad to challenge for 'better' honours, League, FA Cup, and the Champs League its self.
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #571 on: May 21, 2012, 10:20:20 PM »
None, because the money hasn't been available IMO, it's gone on the stadium.

Don't suppose that might happen to us eh?

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #572 on: May 21, 2012, 10:21:25 PM »
I want to win every game possible. The point I'm trying to make is that it is a lot harder to do that when you dont have the best players.


For just 1 season, if it was possible to throw both cups if we were guaranteed a champions league spot. I think you would have to take it.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #573 on: May 21, 2012, 10:21:27 PM »
Well I think we can all agree we want to win the lot.

Should really close the thread on that.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #574 on: May 21, 2012, 10:21:47 PM »
Don't suppose that might happen to us eh?
I'm not sure, the owners seem to be trying to use other ways of finding the money...ahh fuck it, who knows!

Offline El Ninos Black Eye

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #575 on: May 21, 2012, 10:22:23 PM »
I would've took the Carling Cup all season. But if 4th would've meant Kenny keeping his job, I'd swap it right. Hate how football has gone. Because he should never have lost his job.
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #576 on: May 21, 2012, 10:25:02 PM »
I would've took the Carling Cup all season. But if 4th would've meant Kenny keeping his job, I'd swap it right. Hate how football has gone. Because he should never have lost his job.

Kenny says he wouldnt swap it for nothing mate, the man is right, once again. If its good enough for Kenny it's good enough for me.
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Offline El Ninos Black Eye

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #577 on: May 21, 2012, 10:27:32 PM »
Kenny says he wouldnt swap it for nothing mate, the man is right, once again. If its good enough for Kenny it's good enough for me.
I know he wouldn't. But you know what I mean. I'm just still gutted he's gone
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #578 on: May 21, 2012, 10:27:48 PM »
Well guys, 14 pages in - has anyone changed their minds or has this run its course? I'm starting to lose it here  :D

Not changed my mind as such but some interesting points raised. What shocked me were those financial figures from 2005 and last year. It's changed my view of the importance of champions league football as something transformative. It may have been at one time but if you need champions league to buy players your pockets aren't deep enough.

The idea that sacking off the cups means top four means money and players...  is now arse backwards. It's now money means players means champions league and the title.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #579 on: May 21, 2012, 10:28:09 PM »
I guess potentially they may, yes. We'll never know.

Going back to the original question, I'd take champs league qualification over the league cup every year. I understand fully that this doesn't fit in with the history of the club and the roots of football. But football has changed. As a Liverpool fan I'd rather us get into the champs league so that we can collect money to build a better squad to challenge for 'better' honours, League, FA Cup, and the Champs League its self.

I don't think anybody finds that a difficult logic to understand, all fans want to see our players up against the best of Europe... we want to see our lads and manager going head to head in a battle of wit, ability and desire.

But whilst the owners too want us to qualify for that competition, they don't really give a toss about any of that. They are solely concerned with the benefit financially it brings to the club.

And this is the line where, for me... i disengage with the current owners. I too am desperate to get back into the European Cup, so i can enjoy watching our boys.... but i was quite content watching Kenny take us to two cup finals and was quite prepared to accept a poor league season and see Kenny take the boys out next year in the belief he would do a better job in the league. The right man for us the Liverpool fans to be leading our team out.

However because of the financial loss of not instantly returning a top 4 finish, he's out the door.

This isn't a conflict of sentimentality, it's just a belief in the man and the job he was doing and the impatience to need that success yesterday, but not for the glory in our owners case, for the money it brings home.
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Offline Cre_mCr_cker

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #580 on: May 21, 2012, 10:31:13 PM »
Kenny says he wouldnt swap it for nothing mate, the man is right, once again. If its good enough for Kenny it's good enough for me.

Off-topic however, Stewart Downing for £20m was good enough for Kenny. That good enough for you?
This is a Liverpool forum. We are not talking about Demba Ba's cock.

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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #581 on: May 21, 2012, 10:32:51 PM »
I know he wouldn't. But you know what I mean. I'm just still gutted he's gone

i know exactly what you mean. one of the worst decisions this club has made in years, and we have made a few.
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Offline El Ninos Black Eye

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #582 on: May 21, 2012, 10:33:58 PM »
Off-topic however, Stewart Downing for £20m was good enough for Kenny. That good enough for you?
There's always one  :butt
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #583 on: May 21, 2012, 10:34:13 PM »
Off-topic however, Stewart Downing for £20m was good enough for Kenny. That good enough for you?

if kenny told me to throw myself in the mersey wearing a downing top, i would. Cos it makes sense.
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Offline arnaldo

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #584 on: May 21, 2012, 10:35:09 PM »
Off-topic however, Stewart Downing for £20m was good enough for Kenny. That good enough for you?
Haha, good point

The cup was good but I really miss those special European champions league nights. I miss that we are out of england and European elites for the past few yrs. I would love to get back in again. Unfortunately it's going to be even harder to get in as the teams going for it are getting stronger
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #585 on: May 21, 2012, 10:35:20 PM »
Oh - and the irony in the clubs satisfaction to portray a return to good ole days in the very subtle yet visual form of our new kit, believing their 'customers' yes us the fans subliminally buy into the connotations that come along with it 'return to our values' 'bring back success' bla bla bla.

To completely contradict all those marketing messages, by fucking off one of greatest very own, Kenny Dalglish. Because he didn't in one full season line their pockets with the financial reward of qualifying for the European Cup. Yet somewhat contradictory fire him for winning one trophy and getting to another cup final (return to the good ole days anyone?) and being the very symbol of what many Liverpool fans believe is 'The Liverpool Way'.
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Offline artanis

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #586 on: May 21, 2012, 10:35:49 PM »
CL qualification over the Carling Cup and FA Cup any day. We need to play year in year out against Reals, Barcelonas, Bayerns, Inters and measure up against them. We will play the cups anyway, but CL is earned. We need to earn it. Cups are a wonderful time, as proven by Arsenal to give minutes to younger players. 

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #587 on: May 21, 2012, 10:36:12 PM »
Haha, good point

The cup was good but I really miss those special European champions league nights. I miss that we are out of england and European elites for the past few yrs. I would love to get back in again. Unfortunately it's going to be even harder to get in as the teams going for it are getting stronger


it's really not a good point though.
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #588 on: May 21, 2012, 10:36:47 PM »
Oh - and the irony in the clubs satisfaction to portray a return to good ole days in the very subtle yet visual form of our new kit, believing their 'customers' yes us the fans subliminally buy into the connotations that come along with it 'return to our values' 'bring back success' bla bla bla.

To completely contradict all those marketing messages, by fucking off one of greatest very own, Kenny Dalglish. Because he didn't in one full season line their pockets with the financial reward of qualifying for the European Cup. Yet somewhat contradictory fire him for winning one trophy and getting to another cup final (return to the good ole days anyone?) and being the very symbol of what many Liverpool fans believe is 'The Liverpool Way'.

yup.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #589 on: May 21, 2012, 10:37:47 PM »
I think Tottenham are a better example, they have spent years in mid-table wilderness, before recently building towards one of top number of clubs in the league. They focused on buying young talented players, playing them and developing those players - whilst also dining at a table where proven players who perhaps had a year or two playing under poor form or out of favour, took a risk on under performing proven talent in the hope they could extract that ability again.

I think we need to be smart, and combine investment in young promising players but also look out for those players where an opportunity can be taken advantage of.

And a manager like Redknapp, say what you want about the saggy faced gimp, he get's his teams palying football, and more often than not punching above their weight, tactically shite mind you, but they come at you in waves, quick attacking football. Good to watch, effective most of the time, trouble is, old Arry ain't astute enough to mix it with the real 'elite'
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #590 on: May 21, 2012, 10:38:06 PM »
That's only because of Arsenal's strategy not because they couldnt get them if they wanted to.

So you'd agree that top four can be just a different level of mediocrity? I was in the pub with my mate who's an Arsenal season ticket holder. He used to go with three mates. Two of them have sacked it off and he's just sold half of one to another mate while he considers whether to jack it completely. He's fed up with Arsenal, Wenger and the whole project. Champions League games are just depressing for him because despite the occasional great game, he no longer expects to win anything. He said he'd rather win the Carling Cup than another seven years without a trophy.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #591 on: May 21, 2012, 10:38:45 PM »
yup.

It's bullshit mate, they sell us the dream in one hand and take it away with another when it doesn't profit them. Whatever the 'Liverpool Way' is, it certainly was never that.

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Offline arnaldo

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #592 on: May 21, 2012, 10:43:31 PM »

it's really not a good point though.
This isn't a pop against you, but people in here make out that Kenny did no wrong in his time on the hot seat. I loved the guy and was sad to see him go, but some of the signing, results, performances and negative stats were atrocious this season. As emotional as it was to see him go, the owners have made a tough call to replace him. Sometimes you have to make tough and unpopular calls to go forward. Whether we go forward is anyone's guess, time will tell. Of course, I will get a telling off for not sticking up for Kenny with this post
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #593 on: May 21, 2012, 10:46:19 PM »
So you'd agree that top four can be just a different level of mediocrity? I was in the pub with my mate who's an Arsenal season ticket holder. He used to go with three mates. Two of them have sacked it off and he's just sold half of one to another mate while he considers whether to jack it completely. He's fed up with Arsenal, Wenger and the whole project. Champions League games are just depressing for him because despite the occasional great game, he no longer expects to win anything. He said he'd rather win the Carling Cup than another seven years without a trophy.

I think Chelsea have found the highest level of mediocrity possible, honestly I think Djimi Traore would have waltzed into that team last night.

Even if he did then go on to waltz it into his own net.  :D

As for Arsenal I actually admire their whole philosophy and the patients of Wenger, and it is a strategy that could have worked if not for these impatient prima-donna types and Arab billionares.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #594 on: May 21, 2012, 10:47:15 PM »
I don't think anybody finds that a difficult logic to understand, all fans want to see our players up against the best of Europe... we want to see our lads and manager going head to head in a battle of wit, ability and desire.

But whilst the owners too want us to qualify for that competition, they don't really give a toss about any of that. They are solely concerned with the benefit financially it brings to the club.

And this is the line where, for me... i disengage with the current owners. I too am desperate to get back into the European Cup, so i can enjoy watching our boys.... but i was quite content watching Kenny take us to two cup finals and was quite prepared to accept a poor league season and see Kenny take the boys out next year in the belief he would do a better job in the league. The right man for us the Liverpool fans to be leading our team out.

However because of the financial loss of not instantly returning a top 4 finish, he's out the door.

This isn't a conflict of sentimentality, it's just a belief in the man and the job he was doing and the impatience to need that success yesterday, but not for the glory in our owners case, for the money it brings home.

I agree completely, but the question wasn't do you agree Dalglish should have been sacked because we didn't get fourth. There are many many reasons why he shouldn't have been sacked, and a few areas that needed addressing.

The fact that Kenny can't admit that 4th place would have been very beneficial to us, potentially more so than the league cup, whether he's being a touch stubborn or not, is a worry (not now he's been sacked like) more money, better pulling power, chance to play on big stage, happy owners.

It's very difficult, winning the cup was fantastic.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #595 on: May 21, 2012, 10:47:17 PM »
I guess potentially they may, yes. We'll never know.

Going back to the original question, I'd take champs league qualification over the league cup every year. I understand fully that this doesn't fit in with the history of the club and the roots of football. But football has changed. As a Liverpool fan I'd rather us get into the champs league so that we can collect money to build a better squad to challenge for 'better' honours, League, FA Cup, and the Champs League its self.

That wasn't the question. The question was would you rather finish fourth and go into the Europa league or win a cup and go into the Europa league. The point being you can't decide what you're going to win and fortune can bite you on the arse.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #596 on: May 21, 2012, 10:50:44 PM »
I want to win every game possible. The point I'm trying to make is that it is a lot harder to do that when you dont have the best players.


For just 1 season, if it was possible to throw both cups if we were guaranteed a champions league spot. I think you would have to take it.

Yes, I'd go with that but there are no guarantees so you keep your options open. Or you spend big to pretty much guarantee that you will be one of the top two or three.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline What's the procedure Mr Mod?

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #597 on: May 21, 2012, 10:50:46 PM »
That wasn't the question. The question was would you rather finish fourth and go into the Europa league or win a cup and go into the Europa league. The point being you can't decide what you're going to win and fortune can bite you on the arse.

4th and Europa League qualification or the League cup and Europa League qualification? Really? And it's got to fifteen pages?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:53:44 PM by What's the procedure Mr Mod? »
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Offline Carlos: Very Kickable

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #598 on: May 21, 2012, 10:51:17 PM »
Who are the top players at the peak of their game who have gone to Arsenal in the last few years? I can't think of any.

Depends what you mean by "top".

That wasn't the point that was being debated though - Arsenal have a wage cap means that there will be few "top players at the peak of their game" wont consider going there (your Agueros etc). Because of that financial restriction they have to buy young players yet to reach their peak or "top" players like Podolski who are cheaper because of form. Nevertheless, players like Arteta, Podolski or M'Vila ARE top level professional footballers and there is no doubt playing in the Champions League is a lure for them.

The point Al555 was making is that players have left Arsenal despite being in the Champions League - but even if 20 players had left last season, 25 would likely have left if there was no Champions League football to offer so it HAS helped them retain their players.

Anyway, you didn't answer my question (not that you are obliged to) - given the state of our club at the moment if you could guarantee fourth place or the Carling Cup next season what would you honestly take at the moment?*

*I have a followup question.
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Offline Red Genius

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #599 on: May 21, 2012, 10:52:05 PM »
This isn't a pop against you, but people in here make out that Kenny did no wrong in his time on the hot seat. I loved the guy and was sad to see him go, but some of the signing, results, performances and negative stats were atrocious this season. As emotional as it was to see him go, the owners have made a tough call to replace him. Sometimes you have to make tough and unpopular calls to go forward. Whether we go forward is anyone's guess, time will tell. Of course, I will get a telling off for not sticking up for Kenny with this post

You won't get a telling off from me mate, even though i strongly believe Kenny should not have lost his job. This season wasn't void of positive signs, there was a platform of success to build upon we reached two cup finals - that's a fantastic achievement.

The argument i'll put forward - is one full season that demonstrates success in two competitions of three in which we entered as a club ultimately suggest the man in charge is fundamentally making mistakes, or is he in the process of building his vision and at that early stage it should be expected that we'll see mixed inconsistent performances?

Let's make no bones about this, the full season in it's entirety was not the context our owners considered when making their judgement it's clear as day - recorded from their very own mouths, our league position was the reason he went, why is that so significant? well the financial rewards that come with finishing in those European Cup spots. The decision was upon the disappointment of not bringing home the big bucks, not the glory (two cup finals)
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