Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 95400 times)

Offline Cre_mCr_cker

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #520 on: May 21, 2012, 09:27:30 PM »


Maybe this comes down to whether you are able to get to Wembley or not ?
 

Ah so the Sky generation argument fell on deaf ears so you're wheeling out the tried and tested fans from for away one now.  ::)
This is a Liverpool forum. We are not talking about Demba Ba's cock.

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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #521 on: May 21, 2012, 09:28:41 PM »
The same players were disappointed with the league position at the end of the season too.  As people have said, a cup and CL position finish shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

I agree with this, others disagree though, I want all of it!
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Offline the good half

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #522 on: May 21, 2012, 09:28:45 PM »
The thing is, we get ourselves back into the CL places, we have a better chance of competing for cups.
Thats it there.

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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #523 on: May 21, 2012, 09:30:51 PM »
Funny thing is who left, Xabi  still in the CL personal fall out with Rafa, Masch not in it then other factors made him leave, Torres left because of the money not happy now,   Raul and Albert left for well known reasons, so who has left so far because we are not in the CL then?

Reina still here, Gerrard still here, Agger still here, Carra still here? Skrtel still here, Glen still here, did anyone of them say last year fuck this I am off to play in the CL?

Do you think Mascherano & Torres would have left if we were competing for the top prizes? Xabi is different because he fell out with the manager. Aquilani played for a team in the champions league and Meireles won it.
Reina came very close to leaving, had to be persuaded, Gerrard stayed because he won't move to another club at this stage in his career, who would want Carragher? Agger is too injury prone, Skrtel was an average CB before this season.
There is no arguing that the best players want to play in the Champions League.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #524 on: May 21, 2012, 09:31:06 PM »
You win trophies and it's becomes infectious.

Exactly. And if Real Madrid and A.C. Milan come along, Suarez and Lucas are off to compete for every trophy every season. Including the best one a player wants to win. The Champions league.


Now I am out.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #525 on: May 21, 2012, 09:31:12 PM »
Ah so the Sky generation argument fell on deaf ears so you're wheeling out the tried and tested fans from for away one now.  ::)

Anymore mindless replies?

 If you have never been to Wembley going there might mean less to you than others who have been or went for their first time,  what dont you get about that?

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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #526 on: May 21, 2012, 09:31:34 PM »
Ah come on, there are plenty of teams in the CL that mid-table English teams can beat.  The best football and the best team don't always win the CL... see 2012 for reference.

What in the groups or qualifying stages? To be honest I dont think you could prove that either way, infact I think thats doubtful. Our league isn't as good as you think it is you know.

And the thing is you dont even have to be a mid-table team to win the FA Cup. Think of a Wimbledon or Coventry City type team representing us in the CL? Also there is another scenario. What if one of the teams in the FA Cup had already qualified for the CL as Champions or by their league finish and the team they were playing was a Championship side like Millwall? Are you honestly saying you'd be happy with them representing us in the CL?

« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:35:05 PM by Mr Rossi »

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #527 on: May 21, 2012, 09:32:03 PM »
The thing is, we get ourselves back into the CL places, we have a better chance of competing for cups.

Common sense that is being ignored because people are being blinded in outrage at an Ayre quote that was so maybe poorly phrased as it was so easily open to misinterpretation depending on your view of FSG.

Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #528 on: May 21, 2012, 09:32:47 PM »
Where the fuck as this 4th vs Carling Cup come from? How about 1st, Carling Cup, FA Cup and UEFA Cup?

Seriously, is it not possible to have good runs in all 3 cups, finish 5th and still to have progressed?

Let's park the financials for a short while and concentrate on continuing to improve on the field. When that happens, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st will start to look after itself.

We are starting to panic and create our own pressure by setting league targets. Let's set the target of winning each game as it comes which, in turn, will lead to improvement. I know it might not be enough for some but that's what we need to concentrate on

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #529 on: May 21, 2012, 09:33:50 PM »
So I'm right in assuming people want just 1 day out at Wembley even if it sacrifices the next 5/10 years of the club competing at the top?

No - don't be a dickhead.
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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #530 on: May 21, 2012, 09:33:53 PM »
Thats it there.

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Offline John C

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #531 on: May 21, 2012, 09:35:00 PM »

'67, '68, '69, '70, '71, '72 - we didn't win anything or even reach a cup final.
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Offline mulfella

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #532 on: May 21, 2012, 09:36:18 PM »
The answer is obvious.

For a fan, carling cup because we have the luxury of not having to really give a shit about anything but the season in hand.

For an owner, CL place, as they have to actually look after the club long term.

Of course that shows up the fallacy of the original question which is '4th place'. Given what happened to us a few years one would think we understood the lack of certainty of 4th place.

I could of course be wrong but i don't recall any of the owners or management mentioning 4th place as a target.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #533 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:02 PM »
Fair point although you could say that's the owner's decision. Maybe if more people thought the way I do and emphasise trophies over fourth place, they would have found it much harder to sack Kenny.

So right now with no manager, DOF, uncertain transfer budget and unclear plans from the owners if I was to guarantee you one of them for next season you'd choose the Carling Cup?*

*I have a follow-up question
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:39:34 PM by Carlos Qiqabal »
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #534 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:49 PM »
Stupid argument no I would rather be Liverpool and win the fucking lot, however if we discount two out of three domestic competitions we are cutting down our chances of winning anything at all.

Maybe this comes down to whether you are able to get to Wembley or not ?
 
If not well you could not understand the fact that people enjoyed going there, be like me discounting the super bowl, because I cannot watch it live really!

Of course we would all prefer us to win the lot.  And I don't think anyone is saying that if we concentrate for a season on the league rather than the cups we are selling our soul.  It makes sense.

The idea is that by concentrating on the league (our bread and butter) enough to get us back into the CL, we will have money to press on with the cups and towards the title.  It takes time.

Offline Cre_mCr_cker

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #535 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:55 PM »
Anymore mindless replies?

 If you have never been to Wembley going there might mean less to you than others who have been or went for their first time,  what dont you get about that?

I've been twice mate, thanks. It's your mindless stabs in the dark trying to blame fan demographics for you not getting it that are pissing me off. First yo had a go at the young, now you're blaming the 'OOTers'. Fact is plenty of Liverpool fans from Liverpool failed to get tickets for the Wembley games and I'd imagine plenty of fans who couldn't get to Wembley would still hold your point of view.
This is a Liverpool forum. We are not talking about Demba Ba's cock.

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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #536 on: May 21, 2012, 09:38:47 PM »
No - don't be a dickhead.

Sorry? What have I said in there that warrents you calling me a dickhead?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #537 on: May 21, 2012, 09:41:42 PM »
So you'd rather be Villa then? You'd rather be in a position where your biggest day out in 20 years is to go and lose a Carling cup final to United. Rather appoint David Moyes after he relegates Everton (McCleish situation) Rather see your best players leave for bigger teams.

What the fuck have Villa got to do with anything? Please stop posting shite.
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Offline Cre_mCr_cker

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #538 on: May 21, 2012, 09:43:31 PM »
What the fuck have Villa got to do with anything? Please stop posting shite.

Just because it contradicts your opinion it constitutes 'shite'? I felt he was posting a good amount of sense.
This is a Liverpool forum. We are not talking about Demba Ba's cock.

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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #539 on: May 21, 2012, 09:45:04 PM »
What the fuck have Villa got to do with anything? Please stop posting shite.

Errr, must you insult people just because you disagree with them?  What a nice chap you are.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #540 on: May 21, 2012, 09:47:20 PM »
Sorry? What have I said in there that warrents you calling me a dickhead?

This:

So I'm right in assuming people want just 1 day out at Wembley even if it sacrifices the next 5/10 years of the club competing at the top?

It's the strawiest, straw man argument since Worzel Gummidge caught the Scarecrow shagging miss Sally.
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #541 on: May 21, 2012, 09:47:32 PM »
you know what, just lock the thing, going round in circles.
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #542 on: May 21, 2012, 09:49:20 PM »
What the fuck have Villa got to do with anything? Please stop posting shite.


Because if we dont get back into the champions league then we will lose our best players very quickly. And we will turn into a big club with nothing to show for it. Exactly like Aston Villa. I think its a very reasonable comparison.


Also, Ive only ever posted negative/mildly offensive stuff very rarely and only out of frustration that people are just choosing to ignore any point I make, even when plenty of others can clearly understand what I'm saying. Oh and that's 2 posts in a row you've sworn at me for no reason. Fuck off with it now.


^Uh oh, is that bannable.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #543 on: May 21, 2012, 09:52:32 PM »
Exactly. And if Real Madrid and A.C. Milan come along, Suarez and Lucas are off to compete for every trophy every season. Including the best one a player wants to win. The Champions league.


Now I am out.

Being in the CL has really helped Arsenal keep their players hasn't it.
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #544 on: May 21, 2012, 09:53:58 PM »
Being in the CL has really helped Arsenal keep their players hasn't it.

No because they havnt improved on it, despite Wenger having the funds to do so.


At least theyve had the players playing for their team. I cant wait to see what top quality we get in to replace Reina and Suarez.

Offline graaf_x

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #545 on: May 21, 2012, 09:54:38 PM »
It has been posted many times before, but the league should be our main goal. I don't believe we can win it from 8th place, so: 1) We need to finish as high as possible, CL will generate money for better players, better players will keep current stars happy and with right approach we then become stronger and stronger; 2)  With a stable position in top4 we can push for the title - ultimate goal.
Domestic cups are just nice additions - no more, no less.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #546 on: May 21, 2012, 09:55:18 PM »
Being in the CL has really helped Arsenal keep their players hasn't it.

Would've lost them a bit sooner if they hadn't been finishing top four. Infact they probably wouldn't of signed for them in the first place if they were just a mid-table cup winning team.

Looks like they've a better chance of keeping RVP now aswell.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #547 on: May 21, 2012, 09:56:20 PM »
It has been posted many times before, but the league should be our main goal. I don't believe we can win it from 8th place, so: 1) We need to finish as high as possible, CL will generate money for better players, better players will keep current stars happy and with right approach we then become stronger and stronger; 2)  With a stable position in top4 we can push for the title - ultimate goal.

Hey, what a genius idea that is!

Domestic cups are just nice additions - no more, no less.

Yeah, but I want to win them both, every year. But not at the expense of top 4 asap.

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #548 on: May 21, 2012, 09:58:33 PM »
This:

It's the strawiest, straw man argument since Worzel Gummidge caught the Scarecrow shagging miss Sally.

It's not all that much strawier than the argument that we're only aiming to finish fourth for the sake of finishing fourth without progressing, or also having a chance to do well in the cups. The entire thread is made of straw.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #549 on: May 21, 2012, 09:58:34 PM »
Being in the CL has really helped Arsenal keep their players hasn't it.

Yes of course it has - players were going to leave Arsenal anyway - being in the champions league means less of them have left but its not the be-all-and-end-all of why a player is at a club.

Are you seriously arguing that being a Champions League team isn't a draw for top level professional football players? Bizarre.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:00:07 PM by Carlos Qiqabal »
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #550 on: May 21, 2012, 09:58:53 PM »
Sorry? What have I said in there that warrents you calling me a dickhead?

How about this?

Quote
I fucking sick of typing the same things out over and over again, I'm out of here. Either you're just bored wum's or you're that fucking thick you arnt worth the conversation.

Not only do you try to insult everyone who disagrees with you you seem to think if you keep posting the same things over and over then you will change people's minds, and then raging when they don't. It  reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Given the amount of shit we have had this season (and not talking about the future as we ALL want to see us competing in the CL soon) I was delighted to see Kenny lift that trophy for us, regardless of anything else.  Obviously you were not.



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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #551 on: May 21, 2012, 10:01:43 PM »
Being in the CL has really helped Arsenal keep their players hasn't it.
No, but it has helped fund their new stadium. They also haven't lost that many players, only Fabregas and Nasri from what I can remember and they still have more quality than us.
Anyway, we're never going to agree here so I'm just going to leave it. Have a good evening fellas.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #552 on: May 21, 2012, 10:03:00 PM »
Fair enough. But it was just frustration. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but just completely dismissing my point (seemingly deliberately) when its more than reasonable and obvious is just ridiculous. You can disagree yes, but you cant deny the long term fortunes of the club depend far more on top 4 than the league cup.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #553 on: May 21, 2012, 10:05:14 PM »
I'd rather have qualified for the champions league than win the league cup. Why? Dalglish wouldn't have been sacked.
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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #554 on: May 21, 2012, 10:06:40 PM »
I'd rather have qualified for the champions league than win the league cup. Why? Dalglish wouldn't have been sacked.
I think he would have still been let go.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #555 on: May 21, 2012, 10:07:03 PM »

Because if we dont get back into the champions league then we will lose our best players very quickly. And we will turn into a big club with nothing to show for it. Exactly like Aston Villa. I think its a very reasonable comparison.


Also, Ive only ever posted negative/mildly offensive stuff very rarely and only out of frustration that people are just choosing to ignore any point I make, even when plenty of others can clearly understand what I'm saying. Oh and that's 2 posts in a row you've sworn at me for no reason. Fuck off with it now.


^Uh oh, is that bannable.

 No it's not bannable. You were making sensible points but you're venturing into straw man territory. No one wants to be Villa and as I posted earlier, no one who wants Carling cups and FA cups doesn't want to win the league ad the European cup. Im the same way that no one wants to win the Carling Cup if it means winning nothing else.

I have greater ambition than you do because I want what you want but also want the 'lesser' cups.

Read back and look at my post showing the top clubs income. Getting a few tens of millions from the CL won't make a blind bit of difference in closing our income gap. Sacking off the carling and FA cups gets us into Spurs territory, not Chelsea, United or City territory.

The interesting point about Villa is that they tried to do what some on here are suggesting - build a team on the cheap and sack off the small competitions for top four. It's a shit model and doesn't work.
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #556 on: May 21, 2012, 10:08:07 PM »
I think he would have still been let go.

And probably because he hadn't won a trophy  ;)
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #557 on: May 21, 2012, 10:08:59 PM »
I think he would have still been let go.

If we'd qualified for the Champs League? Give over, you're just being a drama queen lad.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #558 on: May 21, 2012, 10:10:45 PM »
I think he would have still been let go.

I'm sure he would. FSG have a structure they want to put in place an Kenny didn't fit in. They had to take him after Hodgson to unite the club but he was never long term for them
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline -RedTilDead-

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #559 on: May 21, 2012, 10:10:56 PM »
You can disagree yes, but you cant deny the long term fortunes of the club depend far more on top 4 than the league cup.

Well I certainly agree with that. I don't really see it can be any other way. I also agree with you that Uefa league champions should get into Champions League.

But the question was which would you prefer for this season, given that both resulted in Europa qualification.  And my answer (and several others) is that I prefer the silverware.

And also yes it does make a difference that it was Kenny. he never won it before in his first term and I now it seems almost like a parting gift too.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:13:54 PM by -RedTilDead- »
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