Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 73689 times)

Offline simesy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2012, 03:03:25 PM »
Winning a trophy, whatever its called, helps players understand what it takes in one off matches to win.At the moment we are a cup team.I believe we have proved in the cups we have what it takes to get a result in one off games which will help us in europe after the "league" stage in cl or europa.I think thats what kenny probably meant by trying to say trophies are just as important as league points.I can understand that.Having said that those cl nights were something  else weren't they.Reminded me of the glory days pre 1992 before football began ::)
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Offline John C

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2012, 03:05:12 PM »
And coming 8th in the premier league (close 9th only for gd) is fucking boss! .. Oh wait....
Look at it another way, imagine never having anything to celebrate. Nothing, ever.

Isn't that a horrible prospect?

Offline jDJ

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »
If we finish 4th or higher every year then we'll attract better players. better managers and be financially more secure. Those things will help us to win Carling Cups and FA Cups.

Winning the Carling Cup is great but it in itself does very little to keep the club viable.

I'd rather focus on being viable and attracting better players - the Cups and trophies will then take care of themselves.

Simply put but spot on.

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2012, 03:07:09 PM »
Both.

Offline stockdam

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2012, 03:08:31 PM »
Look at it another way, imagine never having anything to celebrate. Nothing, ever.

Isn't that a horrible prospect?

Well we could always celebrate like West Ham yesterday.

Winning trophies is what it's all about.........but that follows on after securing a good financial position so that there will be more chance of winning in future.
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2012, 03:09:12 PM »
Do you reckon if we had come 4th Kenny would have been sacked this morning for not making it into the promised land?

Nope.

But again, that's just me speculating.  Like everyone else on here.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »
Lack of a stadium, no director of football, no CEO...

That wouldn't make a lot of sense though would it? The only reason for the thread is because Chelsea won last night creating the situation where a team who focussed solely on league position to get Champions League football (at the expense of trophies) are left in exactly the same position as if they had won the Carling Cup...

Do you think 'Arry really believed he was going to win the league?
I understand they are things we are lacking, but with the squad we have, was it so out of the question to have a proper go at all competitions?
I think 'Arry definitely thought he could win the league.
Did Spurs put league position over trophies? They got to the semi-final of the FA cup, so they clearly wanted to win it while holding getting a Champions League place as a priority.
To me, to be using the fact that an out of the norm occurrence has meant that a fourth place finish in the league no longer means Champions League football is just highly coincidental. 9/10 seasons, Spurs would be playing in the qualifying rounds of the Champions League next year and getting their reward for finishing in the top 4.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2012, 03:12:52 PM »
Although I would never turn my nose up at winning the carling  cup, 4th place or above gives us a better chance of building a squad strong enough to challenge for what we all really want. THE LEAGUE TITLE. So if I really had to choose(would love both to be honest), it would be 4th place or above.

Offline TSC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2012, 03:13:47 PM »
9/10 seasons, Spurs would be playing in the qualifying rounds of the Champions League next year and getting their reward for finishing in the top 4.

But they didn't and they aren't.  Considering they were challenging for the title at one point you could quite rightly point the finger at Harry.  He fucked up.  Straight after all that England speculation and in the end he never even got it.  He must be enjoying his Sunday today.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #89 on: May 20, 2012, 03:16:13 PM »
This year was a one-off and normally 4th with get into the CL.

The simple answer is to get 4th or higher and win a cup or two every year.

However if it's one or the other then I'll reluctantly go for fourth.

Fourth means that we are doing quite well in the league and we can get/keep better players. We should get more CL money and that helps to get better players. Although it is great to win a cup and it goes into the record books, it is harder to convince a player to some to a club that has won the Carling Cup but has finished 8th in the League. The better players want to come to successful clubs and they generally view CL as being better than occasionally winning a Carling Cup.

Yes this year the Carling Cup was better but normally I wouldn't agree.

If we finish 4th or higher every year then we'll attract better players. better managers and be financially more secure. Those things will help us to win Carling Cups and FA Cups.

Winning the Carling Cup is great but it in itself does very little to keep the club viable.

I'd rather focus on being viable and attracting better players - the Cups and trophies will then take care of themselves.

Good post. The league has and always should be our bread and butter. Thats not a new thing either, its been that way since Shanks took over. Winning cups are just a bonus.

Offline Something Awful

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #90 on: May 20, 2012, 03:16:17 PM »
My opinion hasn't changed.

This season I was happy with the Carling Cup as something to break the streak. I also thought it earned Kenny another year.

Next season Champions' League qualification is an absolute must. We got lucky that Spurs missed out this year, and we might get luckier again if Chelsea hire Di Matteo. But we can't guarantee that both those things will be true at the end of next season.
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Offline stockdam

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2012, 03:16:37 PM »
Although I would never turn my nose up at winning the carling  cup, 4th place or above gives us a better chance of building a squad strong enough to challenge for what we all really want. THE LEAGUE TITLE. So if I really had to choose(would love both to be honest), it would be 4th place or above.

Good point.

What do we really want to get back to winning again.......for me it's the League. I'd then take the CL, FA Cup and Carling Cup. Charity Shield is a nice day out.

Finishing 4th next year would mean that we are getting close - we may still be a long way off winning the league but I'd take that as a step in the right direction.
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Offline WavertreeRed

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2012, 03:16:46 PM »
Will you please kindly refrain from all this rational common sense bollocks.

Someone has said something on a social networking site, so it must be true.

Offline Waka

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #93 on: May 20, 2012, 03:19:16 PM »
I don't know where this '4th' place mentality came from, it's a top 4 finish we should be aiming for.

Aiming specifically for 4th is just idiotic.

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #94 on: May 20, 2012, 03:19:44 PM »
I think it depends whether you are looking past the season you are in. Quite frankly I would rather win something in this season than have the opportunity to in the next.
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Offline Matt8Pie

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2012, 03:20:26 PM »
We need to get into the Champions League next season. End of.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #96 on: May 20, 2012, 03:20:30 PM »
OK let's move it on a bit. So...

...if we have to finish fourth every year how are we going to achieve that? There's only one guarantee as far as I can see and that's shed loads of money. We are either on a level with Chelsea, United (until recently) or City in terms of transfers and wages, or we need to find the ultimate genius of a manager who can guarantee top four with limited resources.
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Offline WavertreeRed

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2012, 03:22:44 PM »
we need to find the ultimate genius of a manager who can guarantee top four with limited resources.

we had one....

Will you please kindly refrain from all this rational common sense bollocks.

Someone has said something on a social networking site, so it must be true.

Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2012, 03:23:01 PM »
...if we have to finish fourth every year how are we going to achieve that? There's only one guarantee as far as I can see and that's shed loads of money. We are either on a level with Chelsea, United (until recently) or City in terms of transfers and wages, or we need to find the ultimate genius of a manager who can guarantee top four with limited resources.

A bit of both. An overachiever coupled with about an 80 million net investment over the next two summers.

Offline Jonno83

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #99 on: May 20, 2012, 03:24:08 PM »
We need to think big and this thread does neither. Let's get back to where we should be
We will rise again...

Offline Craig 🤔

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2012, 03:25:53 PM »
OK let's move it on a bit. So...

...if we have to finish fourth every year how are we going to achieve that? There's only one guarantee as far as I can see and that's shed loads of money. We are either on a level with Chelsea, United (until recently) or City in terms of transfers and wages, or we need to find the ultimate genius of a manager who can guarantee top four with limited resources.

I think it's a bit of both that is needed to be honest.

We were never on par spending wise with United or Chelsea (or even Arsenal if they decided to spend back then) when Rafa was in charge (and thats for want of a better example as don't want him to become the debate) but we managed top 4 and beyond in most of those years.

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2012, 03:28:29 PM »
We need to get into the Champions League next season. End of.

But we won't, our club is in pieces at the moment, everyone seems to be in complete disarray and no organisation. Next season I can't see us doing anything but fall further back. 
"A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are." - Bill Shankly

Offline drpepe

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2012, 03:32:24 PM »
But we won't, our club is in pieces at the moment, everyone seems to be in complete disarray and no organisation. Next season I can't see us doing anything but fall further back.

A lot of problems came together this year so i think we will do quite a bit better next season.

Everyone (owners, the new manager & coaches, medics, players) will have to get things exactly right to leap into the top 4. It is a huge ask.


Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2012, 03:33:24 PM »
And let's be straight - for the clubs that win the league now and are likely to win the European Cup, the Champions League money isn't what allows them to buy the best players and pay the best wages. It's just part of their overall income. Unless we have deeper pockets the idea that qualification for the CL will lift us onto the financial level of Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca, Man City and United is a joke.

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Offline drpepe

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2012, 03:34:20 PM »
And let's be straight - for the clubs that win the league now and are likely to win the European Cup, the Champions League money isn't what allows them to buy the best players and pay the best wages. It's just part of their overall income. Unless we have deeper pockets the idea that qualification for the CL will lift us onto the financial level of Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca, Man City and United is a joke.

the CL is about both the money and the lure to top players

Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #105 on: May 20, 2012, 03:35:32 PM »
well 4th would have shown we were a team capable of at least mounting some sort of challenge and would have looked good for next season....so 4th would have been nice
Would it? Interesting that you think so. There is absolutely no guarantee that next season you will push on and mount a challenge. We're living proof that that.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2012, 03:36:18 PM »
But we won't, our club is in pieces at the moment, everyone seems to be in complete disarray and no organisation. Next season I can't see us doing anything but fall further back. 

I don't think we'll fall further back but I'm not convinced playing the kids in a few Carling Cup or Europa League games will make us contenders for the title and the Champions League.
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Offline Something Awful

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #107 on: May 20, 2012, 03:36:39 PM »
And let's be straight - for the clubs that win the league now and are likely to win the European Cup, the Champions League money isn't what allows them to buy the best players and pay the best wages. It's just part of their overall income. Unless we have deeper pockets the idea that qualification for the CL will lift us onto the financial level of Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca, Man City and United is a joke.

But it's MORE money, and attracts MORE players.

Which although true, is an absolutely disgusting sentence to write about a sport. I need a shower.
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Offline soxfan

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2012, 03:36:58 PM »
And let's be straight - for the clubs that win the league now and are likely to win the European Cup, the Champions League money isn't what allows them to buy the best players and pay the best wages. It's just part of their overall income. Unless we have deeper pockets the idea that qualification for the CL will lift us onto the financial level of Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca, Man City and United is a joke.
So if Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca, Man City and United drop out of Champions League every year for the next 10 years, they are still going to be able to buy the world's best players in 2022?

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2012, 03:37:55 PM »
Would it? Interesting that you think so. There is absolutely no guarantee that next season you will push on and mount a challenge. We're living proof that that.

Exactly there are many examples over the past 10 years where the person finishing 2nd has then dropped away and not mounted a challenge. Us 2008/09 to the next season, chelsea 2010/11 to the next season and thats just in the last 4 seasons.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #110 on: May 20, 2012, 03:38:20 PM »
the CL is about both the money and the lure to top players

The top players go to a team that has a decent chance of winning it. The next level down go to teams who make up the numbers.
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Offline Craig 🤔

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #111 on: May 20, 2012, 03:38:35 PM »
And let's be straight - for the clubs that win the league now and are likely to win the European Cup, the Champions League money isn't what allows them to buy the best players and pay the best wages. It's just part of their overall income. Unless we have deeper pockets the idea that qualification for the CL will lift us onto the financial level of Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca, Man City and United is a joke.

It's on (large) piece of the jigsaw though.

They seem to be improving the commercial side which is another piece (and is helped further by being in the CL). The other is the stadium which remains to be seen at the moment.

Offline Something Awful

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #112 on: May 20, 2012, 03:39:07 PM »
Exactly there are many examples over the past 10 years where the person finishing 2nd has then dropped away and not mounted a challenge. Us 2008/09 to the next season, chelsea 2010/11 to the next season and thats just in the last 4 seasons.

It's not as cut and dried as that though. We were being asset stripped. Chelsea are getting visibly worse every year.
'Despite their  cup pedigree - since they've returned to the top flight in 1962 - Everton have, after today's results, once again gone further in the FA Cup than their much vaunted neighbours. For the record it's Everton 23 Liverpool 22  and 7 ties in 52 seasons'

Offline Vidocq

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #113 on: May 20, 2012, 03:40:11 PM »
we can say now that we had better season than spurs :D
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Offline Craig 🤔

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #114 on: May 20, 2012, 03:40:24 PM »
The top players go to a team that has a decent chance of winning it. The next level down go to teams who make up the numbers.

And the next level down those in Europa aiming for CL, and next level.... etc.

Of course, its about getting better than what we have. Then if good scouting is done these can become players better than when we bought them and take us to the next level. At which stage you up grade on players not at that level with players now willing to come to us.

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #115 on: May 20, 2012, 03:40:44 PM »
I don't think we'll fall further back but I'm not convinced playing the kids in a few Carling Cup or Europa League games will make us contenders for the title and the Champions League.

Exactly, just look at Arsenal they have done this strategy for years and haven't won anything for 8 seasons now.
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Offline soxfan

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2012, 03:40:47 PM »
All I can say, is a lot of our fans kept very fcking quiet when Rafa prioritised finishing in the top four over domestic cups.  Actually, they didn't, they vocally defended his right to do so.

People are just creating an entirely false position for the Americans where by they don't care about winning domestic trophies at all and all they care about is the champions league qualification.  If we had had a reasonable league campaign, say Newcastle-esque, and won the Carling Cup and  Kenny had still been sacked, then it's a fair conclusion but as it happens we had the worst league campaign in anyone who's on this forum's lifetime.  So, all we can say for sure is two great cup runs, aren't enough to ignore an atrocious league campaign for them.
EXACTLY.

Offline NHRed

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2012, 03:41:25 PM »
Winning the Champion's League matters.  Winning the Premier League matters.  I believe those are the trophies FSG is aiming for, knowing it will take some time to get there.   Finishing at least 4th is (ordinarily) a necessary requirement to pursue the first goal, and is a step in the right direction from where we are to the second.  It's not just about the money.  It's about pursuing the highest achievements possible. Don't get me wrong, the Carling Cup and even more the FA Cup are nice to have - but the point (from FSG's perspective) is to win championships, not just trophies. 

What was it Shankly said about aiming for the ceiling?


As a side note, that whole "If you win but didn't qualify next year rule" that everyone is whinging about now -- unless I'm gravely mistaken it was invented for Liverpool after Istanbul.  Certainly we took advantage of it.


Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2012, 03:41:30 PM »
The top players go to a team that has a decent chance of winning it. The next level down go to teams who make up the numbers.
And the next level down buy Charlie Adam...I do see your point though, Alan.

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2012, 03:42:08 PM »
It's not as cut and dried as that though. We were being asset stripped. Chelsea are getting visibly worse every year.

Makes yesterdays result that much worse for football doesn't it.
"A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are." - Bill Shankly