Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 95113 times)

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #480 on: May 21, 2012, 09:10:02 PM »
That's not a given though and a strange assumption. Surely by finishing fourth you get better players and compete for trophies. You are allowed to finish 4th and still compete in the cups you know?


Arsenal havnt won anything since 2004. Maybe 2005? Would you want the next 5 years to be like Arsenal's past 5, or Aston Villas?

Ask their fans who are not happy losing finals or not even getting to them! RVP wants to leave to win things now!

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Offline thejbs

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #481 on: May 21, 2012, 09:10:08 PM »
There's no question in my mind that the 4th place should go to the FA Cup winners.  I think the problem here is that 4th place (not even a podium finish) gets you into the CL.  Historically 4th place was a shit position to finish your season in.  Nowadays its a goal for the majority of premiership teams and that's the fault of the CL and the millions that go with it.

Giving the top 3 a place makes more sense while the FA Cup winners should get the fourth place.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #482 on: May 21, 2012, 09:10:14 PM »
but, but , but, but  i thought we didnt get fourth so we must have had a shit team, how did we get to Wembley so often then 3 times as I recall.

edited for the spreadsheet warriors ;)

Because we still had players left from a once very good side. Thing is some of them are coming to the end of their time and the others wont stick around much longer if we continually miss out on the CL places. Which is the point XA is tring to make.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #483 on: May 21, 2012, 09:11:52 PM »
but, but , but, but  i thought we didnt get fourth so we must have had a shit team, how did we get to Wembley so often then 3 times as I recall.

edited for the spreadsheet warriors ;)

Yes because we have good players and spent a lot of money last summer. We arnt going to spend that much again on a regular basis, and if we dont get in the champions league our best players are going to leave. <Thats a fact.  And we wont have a prayer in the cups with Stephen Fletcher and Grant Holt leading the line. < Thats a slight exaggeration


It depends on what happens afterwards. Just getting 4th and then doing nothing to build on top of it would ultimately lead to you falling out of the top 4 with nothing to show for it.

So for one season, standing alone, winning a trophy is better than just getting the 4th spot. Now if it was a choice between a team that is realistically contending for the title and the Carling Cup...I think we'd all take a Title contention.


The way some folks talk, its like being 4th is the end goal. When, if anything, being 4th when you have experienced what we have over the past 7-8 seasons, is still a disappointment.


Well obviously the plan is to keep developing the team. 4th attracts quality. Mata instead of Downing. It keeps Suarez, Reina and Lucas  interested in staying at the club.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #484 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:44 PM »
That's not a given though and a strange assumption. Surely by finishing fourth you get better players and compete for trophies. You are allowed to finish 4th and still compete in the cups you know?


Arsenal havnt won anything since 2004. Maybe 2005? Would you want the next 5 years to be like Arsenal's past 5, or Aston Villas?

both achieved fuck all. Ask Rvp
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #485 on: May 21, 2012, 09:12:54 PM »
Ask their fans who are not happy losing finals or not even getting to them! RVP wants to leave to win things now!




Haha yes, because Arsenal fans are in as much of a sorry state as Villa fans are right now :lmao

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #486 on: May 21, 2012, 09:13:18 PM »
Ask their fans who are not happy losing finals or not even getting to them! RVP wants to leave to win things now!


He does, namely the league and The Champions League.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #487 on: May 21, 2012, 09:14:09 PM »
Because we still had players left from a once very good side. Thing is some of them are coming to the end of their time and the others wont stick around much longer if we continually miss out on the CL places. Which is the point XA is tring to make.

Funny could have sworn all the older players were delighted to finally win something and get a medal at last I know Dirk and Craig were,  as were ironically the younger ones, seems the only people upset about winning it, it our fans who belittle it better than a bitter ever could, and some people over the pond who had the nerve to celebrate it while they discounted it and our manager!
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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #488 on: May 21, 2012, 09:14:28 PM »
both achieved fuck all. Ask Rvp
Arsenal actually financed a new stadium and kept themselves in the champions league and got to a final last year.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #489 on: May 21, 2012, 09:14:55 PM »
both achieved fuck all. Ask Rvp

So you'd rather be Villa then? You'd rather be in a position where your biggest day out in 20 years is to go and lose a Carling cup final to United. Rather appoint David Moyes after he relegates Everton (McCleish situation) Rather see your best players leave for bigger teams.

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #490 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:01 PM »
Ask their fans who are not happy losing finals or not even getting to them! RVP wants to leave to win things now!



Can't blame him. For large parts of this season, if not all, Arsenal were the very definition of a one man team and would have been a lot lot lower in the league table without his goals. He's also seen Nasri and Clichy go to Man City and get the title.

Offline the good half

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #491 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:10 PM »
Why cant we have both.

A Cup
A decent run at the Champions League/title challenge.
It can be done you know

Cant believe this question exists

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #492 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:14 PM »
Arsenal actually financed a new stadium and kept themselves in the champions league and got to a final last year.

a league cup final
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #493 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:31 PM »
Oh God the irony.

I'm glad somebody got it. Yes, that was definitely intentional.  ::)
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #494 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:33 PM »
He does, namely the league and The Champions League.

So why hasn't he done that with Arsenal after all these years in the top four leading on to the holy grail?
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #495 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:43 PM »
He does, namely the league and The Champions League.

Spot, fucking, on.


Never know though. He might come here to win the Carling cup.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #496 on: May 21, 2012, 09:15:52 PM »
There's no question in my mind that the 4th place should go to the FA Cup winners.  I think the problem here is that 4th place (not even a podium finish) gets you into the CL.  Historically 4th place was a shit position to finish your season in.  Nowadays its a goal for the majority of premiership teams and that's the fault of the CL and the millions that go with it.

Giving the top 3 a place makes more sense while the FA Cup winners should get the fourth place.

Firstly. Its the top four that we should be aiming for not fourth. And that should be only seen as a stepping stone to getting were we really want to be.

Secondly. Say the did give the last spot to the FA Cup winners, What happens if we have another Portsmouth V Cardiff scenario and one of those two ended up representing us in the CL? Do we really want risk the chance of english clubs losing a CL place because the FA cup team(s) have performed poorly in the competition?

Offline b_joseph

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #497 on: May 21, 2012, 09:16:11 PM »

Well obviously the plan is to keep developing the team. 4th attracts quality. Mata instead of Downing. It keeps Suarez, Reina and Lucas  interested in staying at the club.
4th doesnt keep them unless there is a chance of winning to go with it. Look at Arsenal for example, they keep coming in the top 4 and their better players cant wait to leave every summer.

So right now, unless we have a real plan in place to attack the top spot in this League ( which none of us have any idea if we do or do not ). Give me the Carling Cup over finishing 4th.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #498 on: May 21, 2012, 09:16:37 PM »
So why hasn't he done that with Arsenal after all these years in the top four leading on to the holy grail?


Because they havnt been good enough. But at least they had a chance to be good enough. We werent good enough for fuck all in 2008/09 but its one of my favourite ever season supporting us for 22 years.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #499 on: May 21, 2012, 09:16:42 PM »

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #500 on: May 21, 2012, 09:17:09 PM »
Why cant we have both.

A Cup
A decent run at the Champions League/title challenge.
It can be done you know

Cant believe this question exists

Exactly, but you cant have both without first getting towards the top and signing good players.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #501 on: May 21, 2012, 09:17:41 PM »
So why hasn't he done that with Arsenal after all these years in the top four leading on to the holy grail?
Because the money that Wenger should have invested in the squad to compete on all levels has been used to build a new stadium.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:19:36 PM by scoresagain »

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #502 on: May 21, 2012, 09:18:10 PM »
Firstly. Its the top four that we should be aiming for not fourth. And that should be only seen as a stepping stone to getting were we really want to be.

Secondly. Say the did give the last spot to the FA Cup winners, What happens if we have another Portsmouth V Cardiff scenario and one of those two ended up representing us in the CL? Do we really want risk the chance of english clubs losing a CL place because the FA cup team(s) have performed poorly in the competition?

You'd probably make the FA Cup a lot more attractive to mid level premiership teams who are unlikely to ever make the top four but could realistically mak a cup run even if the top four also took it more seriously (as a fall back). Would suck for the smaller teams though.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #503 on: May 21, 2012, 09:19:18 PM »
4th doesnt keep them unless there is a chance of winning to go with it. Look at Arsenal for example, they keep coming in the top 4 and their better players cant wait to leave every summer.



But there is more chance of keeping your better players If you do finish in the yop four though isn't there wouldn't you agree? Take Van Persie for instance, do you really think there would be any chance of him sticking around if Arsenal were in spurs position right now? Now he might still go but, atleast it gives them a bit of hope he might stay after finishing 3rd.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #504 on: May 21, 2012, 09:19:53 PM »
Funny could have sworn all the older players were delighted to finally win something and get a medal at last I know Dirk and Craig were,  as were ironically the younger ones, seems the only people upset about winning it, it our fans who belittle it better than a bitter ever could, and some people over the pond who had the nerve to celebrate it while they discounted it and our manager!

Of course its great to win things.

But if we dont get back to the champions league,

our best players leave

worst players replace them

we dont compete for anything.


Havnt I written this down already?

Offline thejbs

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #505 on: May 21, 2012, 09:20:09 PM »
Plus, Arsenal isn't an entirely fair comparison - they've taken the option of sitting back and developing youth rather than buying big.  If anything they're arguably more of a selling club - they lose their biggest stars. 

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #506 on: May 21, 2012, 09:20:50 PM »
So you'd rather be Villa then? You'd rather be in a position where your biggest day out in 20 years is to go and lose a Carling cup final to United. Rather appoint David Moyes after he relegates Everton (McCleish situation) Rather see your best players leave for bigger teams.

Stupid argument no I would rather be Liverpool and win the fucking lot, however if we discount two out of three domestic competitions we are cutting down our chances of winning anything at all.

Maybe this comes down to whether you are able to get to Wembley or not ?
 
If not well you could not understand the fact that people enjoyed going there, be like me discounting the super bowl,  because I cannot watch it live really!
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Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #507 on: May 21, 2012, 09:21:05 PM »
4th doesnt keep them unless there is a chance of winning to go with it. Look at Arsenal for example, they keep coming in the top 4 and their better players cant wait to leave every summer.

Arsenal are a strange case, they do keep getting into the top fourth but I think Arsene's demand to win pretty and not to sometimes win ugly (as shown by Chelsea for CL so recently) is why they don't win more. Certainly seen it in the league where they throw away winning positions by being unable to shut up shot and in the CL too.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #508 on: May 21, 2012, 09:21:46 PM »
You'd probably make the FA Cup a lot more attractive to mid level premiership teams who are unlikely to ever make the top four but could realistically mak a cup run even if the top four also took it more seriously (as a fall back). Would suck for the smaller teams though.

There is too much of a risk of a shit team winning the FA Cup and representing us badly in the CL for me.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #509 on: May 21, 2012, 09:22:38 PM »
Stupid argument no I would rather be Liverpool and win the fucking lot, however if we discount two out of three domestic competitions we are cutting down our chances of winning anything at all.

Maybe this comes down to whether you are able to get to Wembley or not ?
 
If not well you could not understand the fact that people enjoyed going there, be like me discounting the super bowl,  because I cannot watch it live really!
Nah its not. I went to Wembley, I'd rather sacrifice the cups for a couple of years while we try and get ourselves on a footing to be able to compete more often.

Offline thejbs

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #510 on: May 21, 2012, 09:22:40 PM »
Funny could have sworn all the older players were delighted to finally win something and get a medal at last I know Dirk and Craig were,  as were ironically the younger ones, seems the only people upset about winning it, it our fans who belittle it better than a bitter ever could, and some people over the pond who had the nerve to celebrate it while they discounted it and our manager!

The same players were disappointed with the league position at the end of the season too.  As people have said, a cup and CL position finish shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #511 on: May 21, 2012, 09:23:46 PM »
Of course its great to win things.

But if we dont get back to the champions league,

our best players leave

worst players replace them

we dont compete for anything.


Havnt I written this down already?

He knows your right deep down. Just too stubborn to admit it.

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #512 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:06 PM »
Plus, Arsenal isn't an entirely fair comparison - they've taken the option of sitting back and developing youth rather than buying big.  If anything they're arguably more of a selling club - they lose their biggest stars.

Not like we sell any of our biggest stars at all is it, or have an amazing youth academy to speak of, or that we buy younger players, no everyone we buy is in the peak of their career. Also it isn't like Arsenal don't spend any money a lot of their players cost a fair few million and their wages are ridiculous.
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Offline thejbs

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #513 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:09 PM »
There is too much of a risk of a shit team winning the FA Cup and representing us badly in the CL for me.

Ah come on, there are plenty of teams in the CL that mid-table English teams can beat.  The best football and the best team don't always win the CL... see 2012 for reference.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #514 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:28 PM »
The thing is, we get ourselves back into the CL places, we have a better chance of competing for cups.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #515 on: May 21, 2012, 09:26:09 PM »
Of course its great to win things.

But if we dont get back to the champions league,

our best players leave

worst players replace them

we dont compete for anything.


Havnt I written this down already?

Funny thing is who left, Xabi  still in the CL personal fall out with Rafa, Masch not in it then other factors made him leave, Torres left because of the money not happy now,   Raul and Albert left for well known reasons, so who has left so far because we are not in the CL then?

Reina still here, Gerrard still here, Agger still here, Carra still here? Skrtel still here, Glen still here, did anyone of them say last year fuck this I am off to play in the CL?

some of the needless panic is laughable really.
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #516 on: May 21, 2012, 09:27:04 PM »
Stupid argument no I would rather be Liverpool and win the fucking lot, however if we discount two out of three domestic competitions we are cutting down our chances of winning anything at all.


Competing for the top 4 means we have better players, means we have a chance to win the cups.

WE CAN FINISH HIGH AND COMPETE IN THE CUPS IF WE HAVE A BETTER TEAM.

IF WE DONT GET THERE QUICK OUR BETTER PLAYERS WILL LEAVE AND WE WONT HAVE A CHANCE TO DO ANYTHING.


I fucking sick of typing the same things out over and over again, I'm out of here. Either you're just bored wum's or you're that fucking thick you arnt worth the conversation.

Come back to me in 5 years time where we won the carling cup in 2013 but did nothing since, as we have Mignolet in goal, Dann and Simpson in defence.

And I'll come to you in 5 years if we get top 4 every year. We are having fucking fun competing in every competition we can, MAYBE EVEN WINNING A CARLING CUP ALONG THE WAY! And we have Cavani and Muniain playing infront of the Kop every week.


I'm out of here. I'm just glad our owners understand.

Offline Al 666

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #517 on: May 21, 2012, 09:27:20 PM »
Exactly, but you cant have both without first getting towards the top and signing good players.

Don't Arsenal despite being a constant in the CL for a decade still lose players because they want to win trophies. In fact you would be hard pushed to find a team that has lost more talent over that period. Players want to win things, you didn't see the Bayern players with big grins at the end of the game congratulating themselves on how much money they had put in the Clubs coffers.

You win trophies and it's becomes infectious.
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Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #518 on: May 21, 2012, 09:27:25 PM »
There is too much of a risk of a shit team winning the FA Cup and representing us badly in the CL for me.

That is true, if it did happen that for enough years too a weak team got through and thus couldn't manage to win games, then our coefficient drops enough and England would lose the fourth CL place.

To balance that, it would be a question of 1) How many times a weak time manages to make it, 2) Just how weak they are compared to the "strong" 2nd/3rd place of the other leagues and 2) How well/badly the rest of the 3 "top" teams perform to counteract such a rot in the coefficient with good runs towards the final.

Can't say whether I'd like it or not. I'd like to see change especially but it's a scary thought too.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #519 on: May 21, 2012, 09:27:25 PM »
Super Fan/Auld Arse/Domestic Cups Vs Sky Generation/Top 4 seems to be the new Locals Vs OOTs.
I'm all of them beside an OOT mate, it stacks up to just wanting success for the club. There's kids of about 10 that will never forget that Carling Cup win but won't have clue where we finished in 08/09. So while we are *ask jaffod to insert an appropriate word in here except transition* and as luck, injuries and suspensions deal us a bad blow, lets just pick a nice trophy up along the way and laugh like fuck at Newcastle, Spurs, Everton, Arsenal and even Man U.