Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 95256 times)

Offline The Lash

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #400 on: May 21, 2012, 07:06:57 PM »
clearly winning the Carling Cup is a massive advantage, as the club know that at least European competition in assured. Finishing 4th means that you qualify to qualify for the Champions League and things can go wrong - ask Spurs.

As for the amount of money, 4.9 mill for finishing in top 4  and 9 mill for group stage, so only 8 of the clubs who qualify for the CL get more that approx 15 mill from CL football.

So, it is much more likely that a team will recieve 15 mill max from their CL exploits. LFC, according to the owners, will have to be self sufficient, like some kind of wind farm or something. So, even if we get CL football we are likely to have 15 mill to spend on transfers, not enough is it?
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #401 on: May 21, 2012, 07:09:15 PM »
How about a new question for next season ....   :D

Champions League Qualification or the Europa League?

For me the Europa League.


Champions league qualification, even though I would honestly love to win the Europa league.

We arnt in the luxurious position to be able to choose what we win or do. We have to get there. If we don't get in this season for next August (meaning the earliest were back in it is August 2014!) we will be fucked next summer. 5 years without Champions league. Byebye Suarez, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Reina. Then we will be in a very, very grim position.


As I said earlier. Carling cup or top 4? I cant believe this is even a debate.



- Also as an aside, winning the Europa league should give you automatic qualification for the Champions league. Nobody can disagree with that, surely? Teams will certainly take it more seriously, make for a better competition.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #402 on: May 21, 2012, 07:10:21 PM »
I read it, I don't have anything against it. I took exception with the fact that, yet again, you are saying an opinion is linked to your age and generation or whether you where brought up waiting for the yellow ticker. Surely you can explain your mindset without mentioning them?

See you read it and seemingly didnt understand it at all. It is linked to my age because I was brought up on winning the league and cups, not being in the top four, now that is a fact. I also said if you read I understand other people wanting this top four it is simply something i dont crave for or aspire to I want to win it.

 The sky comment is clear why did the clubs create the premiership if not for a bigger slice of the new TV rights provided by that company, why is the champion league in existance if not to make it more games to televise than before with just the European Cup, why would Ayre now like to negotiate our own TV deal especially given FSG have their own TV company in the states?

 Perhaps people need to stop being so precious about other fans having a different outlook to the game and what matters in it.

And so you are in no doubt I want to win it all, always have,  not just end up in the top four which this season turned out to be the top three!

if you dont agree fair enough not bothered but dont tell me what matters to me and what I should value in football.
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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #403 on: May 21, 2012, 07:10:28 PM »
I don't understand the thinking that the club would rather have a nice balance sheet than a cup. The nice balance sheet leads to better investment in the playing staff and possibly a new stadium which then should, theoretically, lead to more cups. In my opinion, prioritising a Champions League place over a Carling Cup win is long term thinking.

Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #404 on: May 21, 2012, 07:11:41 PM »



ALSO ;D


"The club exists to win trophies"

Okay yes. But if we dont qualify for Europe soon we wont have a team. We wont get to Wembley for the next decade. Think Aston Villa. "Ohh were a big club still, honest."

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #405 on: May 21, 2012, 07:11:51 PM »
It wasn't any kind of comment at the staff if that's what you were thinking. Although that said I haven't seen a mod agree that a top 4 finish is preferable to a Carling Cup win, from what I've seen the RAWK staff are all on the same side of the fence. It was just a comment on what I perceived to be the general consensus of posters on this site. I haven't actually read every single post since the end of the season and compiled metrics of people's opinions

I'd say it was about even. Ironically, given my reporting of Rushian's superb post from 2005 earlier in the thread, he wrote on twitter that the money is now critical to the club. That's the great thing about opinions - they can change. 

I don't know if you listened to the Radio 5 preview of the champions league final but the players, past and present all said that winning a medal meant more than anything. I didn't hear one of them say that just being in the competition was more important.

And most interesting was the report that Di Matteo had been told by the club management to concentrate on qualification rather than winning the Big Cup. Apparently he told them to stuff it and told the players he was going all out to win it and fuck the league position. No wonder they were fired up. They had a manager who believed in them and understood what mattered to them.

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Offline Cormack Snr

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #406 on: May 21, 2012, 07:15:12 PM »
Must be 70-30 in favour of 4th over league cup now, Rafa knew the importance of being in the Champions league. Might be a vital part of his cv if he ever gets a second crack at the job.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #407 on: May 21, 2012, 07:21:42 PM »

If you read my retort you would have seen that I have nothing against your principles. Your age doesn't matter and is it any wonder I jumped on that considering your dismissal and attitude towards younger fans in the past? I want Liverpool to win titles, I want us to be competing in Europe, but I also know that it won't happen overnight. Prioritising fourth place is a stepping stone, its not an end goal, never has been for anyone.
Also, I wouldn't dare tell you what matters to you, that's not my place.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 07:26:33 PM by scoresagain »

Offline eAyeAddio

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #408 on: May 21, 2012, 07:31:49 PM »
We're on the march with someone's army,
We're all gonna finish fourth.
And we'll really shake 'em up,
When we publish our accounts,
'Cos FSG have maximized the brand.

You know the tune.......

And a suggestion for next year's song list:  "With A Spreadsheet Upon My Chest."
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I laugh at them because they are all the same.....

Offline NOTBORNIN1982

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #409 on: May 21, 2012, 07:39:15 PM »
And a suggestion for next year's song list:  "With A Spreadsheet Upon My Chest."


I could be wrong but I reckon a song with that title could have the potential to truly encapsulate the soul of our team and the heart behind of our great City
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Offline NOTBORNIN1982

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #410 on: May 21, 2012, 07:41:24 PM »
Would you rather; Score the winning goal in a cup final or... score the goal that got us into the qualifying rounds of the champions League?
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Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #411 on: May 21, 2012, 07:44:10 PM »
And most interesting was the report that Di Matteo had been told by the club management to concentrate on qualification rather than winning the Big Cup. Apparently he told them to stuff it and told the players he was going all out to win it and fuck the league position. No wonder they were fired up. They had a manager who believed in them and understood what mattered to them.

Certainly helps that Di Matteo is just the caretaker and expects to be replaced at the end of the season. Allowed him the freedom to act in a manner that would be highly unlikely of a permanent manager or someone looking to secure the job under normal means (of following orders).

That choice eventually paid off fantastically and gives him a good chance of keeping the job but what a risk with someone as ruthless as Abramovich.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #412 on: May 21, 2012, 07:45:20 PM »
Would you rather; Score the winning goal in a cup final or... score the goal that got us into the qualifying rounds of the champions League?

who remembers the player who scores a goal that got us into the CL, if there is one because it should be a collective over the season!
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Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #413 on: May 21, 2012, 07:46:13 PM »
Is that in the Liverpool museum for us to actually look at, along with the European Cups and the League and FA Cups?

At what stage in the last 10 years have you been most hopeful of us actually challenging for (or even winning) the title?
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Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #414 on: May 21, 2012, 07:47:10 PM »
Would you rather; Score the winning goal in a cup final or... score the goal that got us into the qualifying rounds of the champions League?

Or we change the question again. Would you rather score the winning goal in the cup final or scoring six versus say Manchester United? Either way you're going down in history. The former gives you something tangible. The other would make you a legend with the fans.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #415 on: May 21, 2012, 07:48:54 PM »
History remembers winners.

so now we are thowing situations out there, who would be happy with the next ten years finishing 2/3/4th, or ten league cups, i'd take ten league cups.
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Offline KUNGFUDANCER

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #416 on: May 21, 2012, 07:50:02 PM »
who remembers the player who scores a goal that got us into the CL, if there is one because it should be a collective over the season!
not for liverpool but
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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #417 on: May 21, 2012, 07:50:12 PM »
These hypothetical situations are completely pointless.

Offline coolbyrne

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #418 on: May 21, 2012, 08:00:38 PM »
do you always make things up as you go along?

 It is pointing out that all the argument was top 4 being better than cups and the irony was fourth didn't matter in the end, something well explained in the OP, so where does it say people were happy to lose any game at all?

But fourth DOES matter in the end, because it shows the team is challenging for the kind of trophy that lures in the kind of player that can help a team win other things. How many times have people said something to the effect of, "He won't come here; we can't offer CL football"? It also gives the team more money, which then can go towards paying for that player.

Each place in the table was worth £755,062 in prize money, with that amount going to the bottom club (Wolves) and 20 times that amount (£15,101,240) going to City.

This means Liverpool received £9,815,806 for finishing eighth. The fourth place club received £12,836,054. That's a difference of £3 million pounds. Now granted, that doesn't sound like much I suppose, but the £100,000 we got from winning the Carling Cup isn't much of a drop in the bucket, either.

(The irony is, when all is said and done, we probably ended up with more money than Tottenham,  if one adds up only incoming revenue and cup prize money. But they have the lure of CL to offer. We have the Carling Cup.)

Quote
There was something in the TAW podcast earlier that mentioned the CL revenue going up.  I dug around and there were some articles claiming rises of perhaps 20% in TV revenue.  The gap between clubs in the CL and outside it is growing constantly.  No parachute payments for dropping out of this 'super-league'.

Right now, helmboy_nige, a quick estimation shows that Chelsea made at least £21 million for their run in the CL, which doesn't include the wins/draws in group play (I got too lazy to go back and see what their record was). That's pretty much a Juan Mata right there. Or a Van Der Vaart. But don't let the numbers fool you. Because fourth didn't make it into CL next year, fourth doesn't matter.  ::)

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #419 on: May 21, 2012, 08:01:08 PM »
Certainly helps that Di Matteo is just the caretaker and expects to be replaced at the end of the season. Allowed him the freedom to act in a manner that would be highly unlikely of a permanent manager or someone looking to secure the job under normal means (of following orders).

That choice eventually paid off fantastically and gives him a good chance of keeping the job but what a risk with someone as ruthless as Abramovich.

True - interesting nonetheless. Isn't it the case that winning managers (and players) have that attitude by default? Di Matteo had it because he knows he's out on his ear at the end of the season. Top managers and players have it because they have a drive to be the best. If a player wants to join a club just to be in the Champions League he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned as he's just a mercenary time server. If he wants to join a club that wins things and he believes he can be part of that and contribute... that's the type of player we need.

One more point, which is a bit of a side step but worth saying. Cups are the trophies we can help the team to win. They are the trophies that a club that's building can win. They are the trophies that can be won through tactical nous rather than economic power and depth of squad.

Winning the league requires strength in depth and that needs the club to put its hands in its pockets.
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #420 on: May 21, 2012, 08:07:30 PM »
Yes I would swap places with Spurs for this season.  4th place would mean that we didn't just have our worst season in 50 years and didn't just drop 80+ million quid on shite that other clubs won't look at without a massive discount.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #421 on: May 21, 2012, 08:09:48 PM »
Worst season in 50 years? Still don't get that one. I've seen worse.

'67, '68, '69, '70, '71, '72 - we didn't win anything or even reach a cup final.

And my worse season was 93-94 - won fuck all and finished 8th. We had a mixture of aging greats, potential greats and then players like Razor Ruddock and Julian Dicks who should never have worn the shirt.

Souness was the manager at the start but left after we were dumped out by Bristol City in the 3rd round of the FA Cup. The early promise of Fowler's goals against Fulham came to nothing and we didn't qualify for Europe.

There were highlights in individual games and Fowler made his debut but that was a shite season, unredeemed by any silverware.

Anyone who says that year was better than this year is having a laugh.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:29:38 PM by Alan_X »
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #422 on: May 21, 2012, 08:17:58 PM »
Yes I would swap places with Spurs for this season.  4th place would mean that we didn't just have our worst season in 50 years and didn't just drop 80+ million quid on shite that other clubs won't look at without a massive discount.


worst season in 50 years, take it you havent been round long then?
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #423 on: May 21, 2012, 08:19:59 PM »
1) Worst points return for 31 years
2) Joint worst GS in 41 years
3) Joint worst League position in the last 50 years
4) Fewest wins in 58 years

We were spectacularly shit in the league shit year.  Maybe I went a bit overboard by declaring the entire season bad since we did win a cup but those numbers don't make pretty reading.

Offline Al 666

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #424 on: May 21, 2012, 08:21:20 PM »
At what stage in the last 10 years have you been most hopeful of us actually challenging for (or even winning) the title?


I was hopeful when we went to Arsenal passed them off the park for the first time in years, won 2-0 and went top of the League. I was hopeful when we battered Fulham, I was hopeful when we put United to the sword, I was hopeful when we beat Everton 3 times in a season, I was hopeful when we put a trophy in the Cabinet.

Now I am just totally bewildered at how that was chucked away by people who openly admit that they know nothing about Football and totally perplexed at people talking about how we need to sell our soul just to leverage enough fan affinity.

Liverpool exists to win trophies not to be hopeful that moneyball and Soccernomics might just work.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline JohnHobbes

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #425 on: May 21, 2012, 08:21:23 PM »
True - interesting nonetheless. Isn't it the case that winning managers (and players) have that attitude by default? Di Matteo had it because he knows he's out on his ear at the end of the season. Top managers and players have it because they have a drive to be the best. If a player wants to join a club just to be in the Champions League he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned as he's just a mercenary time server. If he wants to join a club that wins things and he believes he can be part of that and contribute... that's the type of player we need.

One more point, which is a bit of a side step but worth saying. Cups are the trophies we can help the team to win. They are the trophies that a club that's building can win. They are the trophies that can be won through tactical nous rather than economic power and depth of squad.

Winning the league requires strength in depth and that needs the club to put its hands in its pockets.


You're right. You're not going to be a top manager unless you want to win everything. The problem is that is not normally possible unless it's a top squad (and no injuries sapping the strength), so in all likelihood it's a question of compromise of those beliefs with what's practical in reality. So another sign of greatness is the ability to prioritise what matters and how best to achieve it with what you have compared with what you actually need at the time, in the context of knowing what matters to the owners. Normally they coincide, but in cases like Di Matteo it'dbe a pretty determined manager who'd risk the sack to go for the win over the ensured re-qualification.

I agree, cups can be won by the smallest team and it's a case of belief, tactical intelligence for 90mins, fan support and sometimes nothing more than sheer bloody mindedness that will do it. They show a team who can beat the rest on their day and is great for morale and a springboard.

The league is a different matter, where it's such a long drag and you're facing teams that will park the bus in the belief that will one point is a great result. This demands that a squad with as you say strength in depth and creativity in force to break through. Money is needed there and in large amounts, and where repeated CL participation is necessary.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #426 on: May 21, 2012, 08:25:45 PM »
I was hopeful when we went to Arsenal passed them off the park for the first time in years, won 2-0 and went top of the League. I was hopeful when we battered Fulham, I was hopeful when we put United to the sword, I was hopeful when we beat Everton 3 times in a season, I was hopeful when we put a trophy in the Cabinet.

Now I am just totally bewildered at how that was chucked away by people who openly admit that they know nothing about Football and totally perplexed at people talking about how we need to sell our soul just to leverage enough fan affinity.

Liverpool exists to win trophies not to be hopeful that moneyball and Soccernomics might just work.

Good post, soccernomics hahahahahaha
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Offline Al 666

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #427 on: May 21, 2012, 08:27:22 PM »
1) Worst points return for 31 years
2) Joint worst GS in 41 years
3) Joint worst League position in the last 50 years
4) Fewest wins in 58 years

We were spectacularly shit in the league shit year.  Maybe I went a bit overboard by declaring the entire season bad since we did win a cup but those numbers don't make pretty reading.

Ferguson got 48 and 51 points from a 42 game league season but went onto dominate English Football, Moyes went from 17th in 03-04 to 4th and the Champions League spots the next season. Newcastle finished in the bottom half last season and fought it out for the CL places this season.

We were two points of the CL places at the halfway stage but suffered because we lost Lucas completely, Agger for two lengthy spells, never had Gerrard fully fit and lost Suarez for a long spell. Add in Carroll and Henderson bedding in and there are reasons why are form dipped.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #428 on: May 21, 2012, 08:28:25 PM »
And also another hypothetical question .... Sure it is highly unlikely but here goes,  8)

Do you think we could avoid all this discussion if the FA and UEFA reformatted the qualification process? I assume that they pick how people qualify for Europe and into which competitions.

Anyway my question/idea is ...

How would people react to the idea of the winner of the FA cup getting a Champions League place? (And the 3rd qualifying round CL place goes to 3rd)

And how would people react to the idea of the winner of the Europa League getting a Champions League place? (Like a promotion, not at the expense of their own countries places but as an official UEFA place)

I just think this would provide an extra incentive for clubs in the domestic cups and the Europa League, and also might make trophies recapture their magic.
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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #429 on: May 21, 2012, 08:29:07 PM »
Seasons gone by we wouldn't of even been having this discussion. The league cup was seen by many as a mere distraction, a competition to blood the youngsters in. Funny how things change so quickly......

Offline carra1892

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #430 on: May 21, 2012, 08:30:02 PM »
As both go into the Europa League now it makes no fucking difference apart from a couple of extra qualifying games.



Talk good what is bad? Just face reality and admit this season was really bad. Don't try to make it look good, while it clearly isn't. With this mentality the football will never improve.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #431 on: May 21, 2012, 08:30:15 PM »
This seems to have become a should Kenny have been sacked or not thread...

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #432 on: May 21, 2012, 08:31:37 PM »
who remembers the player who scores a goal that got us into the CL, if there is one because it should be a collective over the season!

I think in the year we won the treble we beat Charlton away on the last day of the season about 4-0 to clinch fourth spot, and I think Robbie Fowler scored the winner, might even have got a hat-trick ... can't remember any of the goals but do remember it topping of a great trophy filled season.

I also think we celebrated that year for the treble not qualifying for the champions league  ;) .
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #433 on: May 21, 2012, 08:32:35 PM »
1) Worst points return for 31 years
2) Joint worst GS in 41 years
3) Joint worst League position in the last 50 years
4) Fewest wins in 58 years

We were spectacularly shit in the league shit year.  Maybe I went a bit overboard by declaring the entire season bad since we did win a cup but those numbers don't make pretty reading.

As he said - you haven't been around long. A bad season isn't down to statistics - that's what matters to people who don't actually support the club because that's all they have to go on. I could think of other shite seasons as well as the one above that were worse than this.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #434 on: May 21, 2012, 08:33:21 PM »
Talk good what is bad? Just face reality and admit this season was really bad. Don't try to make it look good, while it clearly isn't. With this mentality the football will never improve.

Haha... try actually reading my posts mate.
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Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline carra1892

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #435 on: May 21, 2012, 08:34:02 PM »
This seems to have become a should Kenny have been sacked or not thread...

Like every thread..
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #436 on: May 21, 2012, 08:34:04 PM »
Why cant people fucking understand.

We dont finish 4th very soon. Our best players are gone. We arnt getting close to even competing in the league cup for a very long time. Its so simple its untrue.

We will turn into Aston Villa. Aston Villa or Arsenal, who would you prefer to be on a par with?

I honestly dont understand peoples logic. By picking League cup you are basically picking one option for a year, then eventually its going to be neither, for a long time as the gap will only widen. By picking the top 4, you are giving yourself a real chance at both every year.


People are idiots.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #437 on: May 21, 2012, 08:34:12 PM »
who remembers the player who scores a goal that got us into the CL, if there is one because it should be a collective over the season!

Who remembers who scored against Real Madrid when we beat them 4-0?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #438 on: May 21, 2012, 08:36:09 PM »
I think in the year we won the treble we beat Charlton away on the last day of the season about 4-0 to clinch fourth spot, and I think Robbie Fowler scored the winner, might even have got a hat-trick ... can't remember any of the goals but do remember it topping of a great trophy filled season.

I also think we celebrated that year for the treble not qualifying for the champions league  ;) .

Err... it was third place. Fourth place happened the following year because Liverpool won the UEFA CUp and bumped up the Premier League's coefficient.

See winning Cups is a good thing...
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Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #439 on: May 21, 2012, 08:37:18 PM »
Who remembers who scored against Real Madrid when we beat them 4-0?
One of the best nights of my life that, what a team we had back then.