Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 93779 times)

Offline stewil007

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #320 on: May 21, 2012, 11:14:26 AM »
Anyone seriously saying the Carling Cup is better than 4th place (not this season obviously) is being incredibly short sighted and does not care about the future success of the club at all.

why not this season (obviously)?  surely its the same every season or not at all.

Offline liverpoolfan1970

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #321 on: May 21, 2012, 11:16:58 AM »
And how do we buy top players - and keep the ones we have - without champions league football. They want to play in it, and we won't have as much money to pay their wages and attract new names.

Get 4th, get better players, compete for more trophies. It's so simple I don't understand how people don't get it. Do you want to be on a par with Chelsea and Arsenal. Or Everton and Aston Villa?

I think the problem is that some of our fan base, a VERY vocal minority I think, is stuck in the old mentality. Winning cups DOES matter, but SOME are more important than others. I'd say there are two levels of trophies. Top level: ECL, Premiere League, Europa League. Bottom level: FA Cup, Carling Cup. You can switch the ranking of ECL and Premiere League around, depending on how you view things. Either way, the fact is, the domestic cups are not top level. They are fun, they bring some prestige, but at the end of the day, they don't bring in cash, and the fact is, cash is the name of the game. Especially for a club like Liverpool which is far behind the top dogs when it comes to match day revenue.

At the end of the day, those saying FSG have no plan and no clue truly don't know what they are talking about. Not a single on of us on this message board know if there is or isn't a plan, but based on their history in Boston, there is a plan. They wanted to implement that plan last summer, but things went differently than they expected and the implementation of that plan was delayed. They've finally said the heck with it, and now they are doing what they should have done last summer. So for me, it is a no brainer. Fourth place.
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Offline XabiArt

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #322 on: May 21, 2012, 11:18:55 AM »
I think the problem is that some of our fan base, a VERY vocal minority I think, is stuck in the old mentality. Winning cups DOES matter, but SOME are more important than others. I'd say there are two levels of trophies. Top level: ECL, Premiere League, Europa League. Bottom level: FA Cup, Carling Cup. You can switch the ranking of ECL and Premiere League around, depending on how you view things. Either way, the fact is, the domestic cups are not top level. They are fun, they bring some prestige, but at the end of the day, they don't bring in cash, and the fact is, cash is the name of the game. Especially for a club like Liverpool which is far behind the top dogs when it comes to match day revenue.

At the end of the day, those saying FSG have no plan and no clue truly don't know what they are talking about. Not a single on of us on this message board know if there is or isn't a plan, but based on their history in Boston, there is a plan. They wanted to implement that plan last summer, but things went differently than they expected and the implementation of that plan was delayed. They've finally said the heck with it, and now they are doing what they should have done last summer. So for me, it is a no brainer. Fourth place.

Can you tell Tony Evans this please.


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Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #323 on: May 21, 2012, 11:28:26 AM »
I think the problem is that some of our fan base, a VERY vocal minority I think, is stuck in the old mentality. Winning cups DOES matter, but SOME are more important than others. I'd say there are two levels of trophies. Top level: ECL, Premiere League, Europa League. Bottom level: FA Cup, Carling Cup.

a) I don't think it's "old" mentality. Whisper it: but we didn't really give much of a toss about the League Cup in our heyday. A nice day out occasionally, but there's a reason we say "18-5", not "18-5-7-8".

b) Switch EL and FA Cup.
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Offline Red_Mist

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #324 on: May 21, 2012, 11:29:55 AM »
why not this season (obviously)?  surely its the same every season or not at all.

presumably he means because the CL winners finished outside the top four...which is unusual, but has happened twice in seven years, and could be more likely to happen again given the greater competition for places at the top of the Prem.

i guess the question should really be carling cup or CL qualification...and most would go for the latter next season if they were forced to hypothetically choose, if only to create some stability at the club (i.e. the manager would probably survive).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 11:52:47 AM by Red_Mist »

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #325 on: May 21, 2012, 11:39:19 AM »
presumably he means because the CL winners finished outside the top four...which is unusual, but has happened twice in seven years, and is likely to happen again given the greater competition for places at the top of the Prem.

i guess the question should really be carling cup or CL qualification...and most would go for the latter next season if they were forced to hypothetically choose, if only to create some stability at the club (i.e. the manager would probably survive).

The point should be 'progressing toward challenging for the Premier League and Champions League' (FA Cups and Carling Cups will come along occasionally regardless). Finishing fourth is better progress than finishing fifth, which is better than finishing sixth... etc.
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Offline Crosby Wych

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #326 on: May 21, 2012, 11:49:48 AM »
why not this season (obviously)?  surely its the same every season or not at all.

As this season an English team won the CL, I can't see that happening most years until City get their shit together.

Take a look at who Arsenal will attract in the summer and who we will attract, that should say it all.
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Offline Driver 8

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #327 on: May 21, 2012, 11:57:19 AM »

Offline keyo

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #328 on: May 21, 2012, 12:12:05 PM »
Quite right.

FSG is running a business. It's called Liverpool Football Club. To be truly successful, one needs to run it well like (I hate to say it) Mancs. They are still the industry's benchmark. Perhaps the only blemish is the way Glaziers are financing the club.
glaziers did not change the way united was run, that was already in place and gill remains the main player

That said, they still provide the template...and that includes leadership, decision makers policy and procedures ...things we lack
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #329 on: May 21, 2012, 12:12:22 PM »
They're moving to Chelsea to challenge for the title and the Champions League. It's been said repeatedly in this thread, but who is suggesting we simply aim for fourth? No one.

People who deliberately miss the point...
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #330 on: May 21, 2012, 12:15:07 PM »
I don't have a side to this argument but I do have a question.

What felt better?

2007 Champions League semi final win against Chelsea
or
2012 Carling Cup win against Cardiff
:D

Offline Jay012345

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #331 on: May 21, 2012, 12:27:10 PM »
After whats happened to the spuds, we can see how dangerous fourth spot is. Both in Europa, but at least we got a cup to show for it.

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #332 on: May 21, 2012, 12:56:52 PM »
The point should be 'progressing toward challenging for the Premier League and Champions League' (FA Cups and Carling Cups will come along occasionally regardless). Finishing fourth is better progress than finishing fifth, which is better than finishing sixth... etc.


Fair point, although I sort of agree and disagree.

Disagree if you're saying that any improvement, say 6th or 7th, is preferable to a cup win (in this fairly daft hypothetical discussion), because it's not. But agree that, although we should aim to win everything we enter, the priority is undoubtedly to make progress in the league for player confidence, manager stability, supporter unity, reputation etc etc etc. Unfortunately I think we've sacked the man best placed to bring about those things. I would obviously love to be proved completely and utterly wrong on that.

Offline Caffeine

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #333 on: May 21, 2012, 12:57:41 PM »
Let's be honest, if we finished 4th and Chelsea won the Champions League, do you REALLY think Dalglish would of been sacked? Not a chance.

No. To suggest otherwise is pure churlishness and immaturity. Everyone knows that but it doesn't suit their agenda to admit it.

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #334 on: May 21, 2012, 01:03:10 PM »
Fair point, although I sort of agree and disagree.

Disagree if you're saying that any improvement, say 6th or 7th, is preferable to a cup win (in this fairly daft hypothetical discussion), because it's not. But agree that, although we should aim to win everything we enter, the priority is undoubtedly to make progress in the league for player confidence, manager stability, supporter unity, reputation etc etc etc. Unfortunately I think we've sacked the man best placed to bring about those things. I would obviously love to be proved completely and utterly wrong on that.

I'm certainly not saying that 6th or 7th is preferable to a cup win, but that every position in the league is better than the one below it (to be honest, as they're very dependent on what other clubs are doing, I'd rather focus on points than pure position). I think cup wins come along occasionally almost regardless.
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Offline aedge659

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #335 on: May 21, 2012, 01:05:52 PM »
I don't have a side to this argument but I do have a question.

What felt better?

2007 Champions League semi final win against Chelsea
or
2012 Carling Cup win against Cardiff


Very good point...i think you know the answers already though.

Online kennedy81

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #336 on: May 21, 2012, 01:07:57 PM »
After whats happened to the spuds, we can see how dangerous fourth spot is. Both in Europa, but at least we got a cup to show for it.

so we shouldn't try get fourth in case an english team who doesn't finish in the top 4 next season wins it again?

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #337 on: May 21, 2012, 01:11:14 PM »
But there is plenty mediocre about classing knocking United out of a cup as a success. Sounding like the Bitters there

yeah know them well do you I class wiping the smile of fergies face as a good thing any time, dont you! Also you may have missed this bit it put us in the next round.
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Offline james_lfc

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #338 on: May 21, 2012, 01:21:13 PM »
the carling cup is meaningless because most teams just play their reserves in it. to be honest i seriously couldn't even list off the top of my head the last 3 winners of the carling cup before us. finishing 4th would mean that we were scoring a lot more goals and not losing homes games to the likes of west brom and wigan. are some people seriously claiming that when they were witnessing our awful league form they just remembered the carling cup and felt happy? and even this season finishing 4th put spurs straight into the group stages of the europa while we still have to qualify.

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #339 on: May 21, 2012, 01:30:34 PM »
the carling cup is meaningless

Do one Ian  ;)

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #340 on: May 21, 2012, 01:43:53 PM »
There's a nice trophy available for the winners of the Championship, since league positions are irrelevant.

Even when we were winning the League Cup every year it was a secondary thimg. Some trophys are bigger than others. Unfortunately the one that the big boys play for has a qualification requirement.
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Offline Flaccid Bobby Fowler

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #341 on: May 21, 2012, 01:44:08 PM »
thread title should be champions league or carling cup! champions league all the way.

Offline Carlito Roberto

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #342 on: May 21, 2012, 01:47:43 PM »
The way football's going you'll soon get a trophy for finishing in the top four.

At least that would put a stop to this most unoriginal debate that rears it's ugly head every single season!

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #343 on: May 21, 2012, 01:58:50 PM »
They're not moving to Chelsea to come fourth either.

Straw man argument.  There is no doubt that we want to win the champions league rather than just be in it.  And as bad as Ayre's PR drive has been, I think this is so obvious it doesn't even need saying.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #344 on: May 21, 2012, 01:59:42 PM »
I think this depends on your age group , I come from an era before the sky induced Prem and when the European Cup was only fought between champions, so i will take cups before top 4 because of this,

 however i do understand the argument for being in the top four but it isnt what i was brought up to respect or desire in football and you cannot change the habits of an old dog!
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Offline Cre_mCr_cker

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #345 on: May 21, 2012, 02:28:13 PM »


Hooray, here we go, we don't understand football because we're young and our minds have been warped and frazzled by the shiny yellow ticker of Sky.
This is a Liverpool forum. We are not talking about Demba Ba's cock.

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Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #346 on: May 21, 2012, 02:55:24 PM »
John nothing mediocre about winning one cup and putting United out of the other, nevermind won more this season than Mr Alex Ferguson, maybe people need to revalue the way they judge success perhaps!

I can’t agree with that reasoning at all. It seems like something I would have said as an 8 year old. We may have won more than Man U this season but do you really think that gives us any kind of bragging rights over them? They amassed 37 more points than us this season. Let that sink in for a second. Over 38 games they absolutely destroyed us. And they came within seconds of winning the title. I would take that ‘failure’ over a Carling Cup win any day.

Let’s put it another way – of these two choices, which one do you view as a more impressive achievement:

-   Our 08/09 league campaign where we finished in second on 86 points and were right in the hunt with 3 or 4 games left
-   Our 11/12 Carling Cup victory

Which left you more proud of and impressed with our team?

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #347 on: May 21, 2012, 03:02:52 PM »
Hooray, here we go, we don't understand football because we're young and our minds have been warped and frazzled by the shiny yellow ticker of Sky.

I blame Xboxes and Football Manager.
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Offline Lucas21

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #348 on: May 21, 2012, 03:07:55 PM »
Mumm-Ra, excellent posts.

Agree 100%

Offline Lucas21

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #349 on: May 21, 2012, 03:09:20 PM »
Hooray, here we go, we don't understand football because we're young and our minds have been warped and frazzled by the shiny yellow ticker of Sky.

If Sky had the influence that some people think, wouldn't all the "sky-washed" people support Man United????

Offline west_london_red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #350 on: May 21, 2012, 03:15:42 PM »
Just out of curiosity, is there an age limit to when you qualify as part of the 'Sky Generation'? Do you have to have a subscription to Sky to be part of this generation? What if you have a Sky subscription but not Sky Sports?

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #351 on: May 21, 2012, 03:18:19 PM »
I think this depends on your age group , I come from an era before the sky induced Prem and when the European Cup was only fought between champions, so i will take cups before top 4 because of this,

 however i do understand the argument for being in the top four but it isnt what i was brought up to respect or desire in football and you cannot change the habits of an old dog!

I don't think it's that, Geoff. I'm pre-Sky, and I clearly remember being massively more bothered about the League (and the European Cup) than either domestic cup; and the FA Cup was a long way ahead of the League Cup.
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Offline Lucas21

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #352 on: May 21, 2012, 03:34:12 PM »
Just out of curiosity, is there an age limit to when you qualify as part of the 'Sky Generation'? Do you have to have a subscription to Sky to be part of this generation? What if you have a Sky subscription but not Sky Sports?

It's if you watch Sky, play Football Manager and own a Sony ChickenBox

Offline LondonRedMan

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #353 on: May 21, 2012, 03:39:44 PM »
I don't have a side to this argument but I do have a question.

What felt better?

2007 Champions League semi final win against Chelsea
or
2012 Carling Cup win against Cardiff

2007 semi win BUT the CC cup win in 2012 was very close. For me Kenny bringing a cup home was a special moment in itself.

Offline scoresagain

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #354 on: May 21, 2012, 04:04:21 PM »

Ahh, the Sky Generation argument, how nice to see you again.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #355 on: May 21, 2012, 04:05:32 PM »
I think deep down everone understands that the CL is more important than any domestic cup - in terms of finance of value to the club.  However, Ayre and FSG will do well to remember that this football club exists to win things.
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #356 on: May 21, 2012, 04:05:52 PM »
FSG is running a business. It's called Liverpool Football Club. To be truly successful, one needs to run it well like (I hate to say it) Mancs. They are still the industry's benchmark.

Would that be the same Mancs who were in two consecutive League Cup finals before they finally won the league after 26 years? Just asking like?

Alex Ferguson - the industry's benchmark - would certainyl recognise the value of winning lesser cups on the way to becoming champions - Ferguson's first 3 seasons saw no trophies and no finals; 1989-90 FA Cup winners and 13th; 90-91 League Cup runners up, European Cup winners cup winners and 6th; 91-92 League Cup and 2nd; 92-93 Champions; the rest is very painful history.

So on your "copy the industry standard" template surely 8th, League Cup winners and FA Cup runners up is not desperately bad progress for a first (or even being uncharitable, 2nd) season manager. Of course, there is one ingredient missing in all this that the "industry standard" hierarchy (albeit not the supporters) demonstrated in abundance at the time - fucking patience.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Red number seven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #357 on: May 21, 2012, 04:09:59 PM »
Hooray, here we go, we don't understand football because we're young and our minds have been warped and frazzled by the shiny yellow ticker of Sky.
Certainly not warped and frazzled and infinitely smarter in many ways than we older generations, but definitely a decreasing attention span and an apparent difficulty understanding the concept that things that are worth having take a long time and a lot of pain to build, that there usually isn't a quick fix for big problems and that heritage is something that you cling onto in uncertain times, not a strap line that you use for an advert.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #358 on: May 21, 2012, 04:10:49 PM »
Would that be the same Mancs who were in two consecutive League Cup finals before they finally won the league after 26 years? Just asking like?

Alex Ferguson - the industry's benchmark - would certainyl recognise the value of winning lesser cups on the way to becoming champions - Ferguson's first 3 seasons saw no trophies and no finals; 1989-90 FA Cup winners and 13th; 90-91 League Cup runners up, European Cup winners cup winners and 6th; 91-92 League Cup and 2nd; 92-93 Champions; the rest is very painful history.

So on your "copy the industry standard" template surely 8th, League Cup winners and FA Cup runners up is not desperately bad progress for a first (or even being uncharitable, 2nd) season manager. Of course, there is one ingredient missing in all this that the "industry standard" hierarchy (albeit not the supporters) demonstrated in abundance at the time - fucking patience.

Oh yes, copying what Ferguson did more than 20 years ago is the way forward. Fucking hell.
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #359 on: May 21, 2012, 04:16:28 PM »
I think deep down everone understands that the CL is more important than any domestic cup - in terms of finance of value to the club.  However, Ayre and FSG will do well to remember that this football club exists to win things.
1. Of course everyone understands that, purely financially, qualification for the biggest money spinner in world football is of more value.
2. The argument is what is of more inherent value, not monetary value. On the one hand the progression of the club in terms of another trophy on the honour roll (making us level 1st in terms of domestic cup wins, by the way), the recgontion that it is a club that wins trophies still, as well as the fact that players have learnt what it is to win - and lose - a cup final - extremely important; for example, in my opinion, the 2001 (and 2003) trophy haul was part of the reason for the belief that helped us deliver the 2005 Istanbul miracle. On the other hand, very validly, Champions League qualification gives the cash and kudos to help recruit and pay yet more top players. This is an argument that is entirely dependent on your values as a supporter
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.