Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 74254 times)

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #240 on: May 20, 2012, 10:41:35 PM »
There was a fundamental difference then. Read your post back and you'll get it - finals and semi-finals... We weren't aiming to get into fourth and just be in the Champions League, under Rafa we were aiming to win the fucking thing. In those circumstances it made sense to make choices about where to focus our (limited) resources depending on the circumstances. The grand fallacy is that it's possible to decide where you will be successful each season as the the OP demonstrates.

No one thinks winning the Carling Cup is as good as winning the European Cup but it is better than going out after the group stages of the Champions League and winning fuck all year after year. As I said before - it's just swapping one level of mediocrity for another.

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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #241 on: May 20, 2012, 10:45:32 PM »
Thread premise is wrong, a better comparison would be between the CL placings and the Carling Cup. Chelsea somehow fluking their way to a trophy means Dalglish didn't get the job done by a margin of 18 points instead of 17. Doesn't change a thing.
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Offline Carolina Red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #242 on: May 20, 2012, 10:58:38 PM »
There was a fundamental difference then. Read your post back and you'll get it - finals and semi-finals... We weren't aiming to get into fourth and just be in the Champions League, under Rafa we were aiming to win the fucking thing. In those circumstances it made sense to make choices about where to focus our (limited) resources depending on the circumstances. The grand fallacy is that it's possible to decide where you will be successful each season as the the OP demonstrates.

No one thinks winning the Carling Cup is as good as winning the European Cup but it is better than going out after the group stages of the Champions League and winning fuck all year after year. As I said before - it's just swapping one level of mediocrity for another.

You can't aim to win the CL unless you qualify for it.

But I'll play your game. When Liverpool were "only" in the group stages or early knockout stages of the Champions League, NOBODY was saying "gee, winning the Carling Cup would be so much better!"

Because it wasn't true. No club in the Champions League would trade it for winning the League Cup. Top players would rather play in the Champions League than win the League Cup. Ever heard a top player say "I may look to move this summer unless we win the League Cup." Or, "Playing in the Champions League was OK, but it didn't look like we were ever going to win the League Cup, so I put in a transfer request so I could fulfill my ambitions of winning the League Cup."

There's no point in pretending otherwise.

Offline Driver 8

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #243 on: May 20, 2012, 11:00:54 PM »
All the bullish posts saying: let's focus on the league and play the kids in the cups are way off the mark. We should be winning trophies to attract sponsorship and TV exposure. Everton finished above us in the league this year - who had the better exposure and looks the most successful on the pitch?

Surely the more apt comparison for the purposes of this debate is with Spurs, not Everton, whose league campaign was little more distinguished than ours, and who don't have the gloss of a cup win. Despite missing out on the CL qualifiers thanks to Chelsea's win, Spurs still look more "successful on the pitch" than us.

It would have been bitterly ironic if we'd not performed in the cups, finished fourth, and wound up with a Europa League spot, so you're right in that sense, but for me the essential difference is that had we finished in the top four, right now I'd be looking to the future with a sense of optimism rather than one of trepidation.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 11:02:26 PM by Driver 8 »

Offline Alf

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #244 on: May 20, 2012, 11:01:35 PM »
The Chelsea win puts finishing 4th into context.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #245 on: May 20, 2012, 11:25:22 PM »
Both, how has this debate continued into May? Jesus.
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Offline Rojo O Muerto

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #246 on: May 20, 2012, 11:26:45 PM »
Progression towards 4th would be a nice start.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #247 on: May 20, 2012, 11:59:46 PM »
as someone once sang

I want it all
I want it all
and I want it now

But in between I will accept three trips to Wembley, knocking both Manchester clubs out of cups, and picking up myself the first trophy we have won in six years!

Can I also say Wenger won nothing for 7 years but gets into the CL lovely, but  doesn't win that either so other than TV Revenue what have their fans got to show for all this supposed success other than a few passport stamps and the odd postcard home!
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Offline Coolie High

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #248 on: May 21, 2012, 12:02:56 AM »
Thread premise is wrong, a better comparison would be between the CL placings and the Carling Cup. Chelsea somehow fluking their way to a trophy means Dalglish didn't get the job done by a margin of 18 points instead of 17. Doesn't change a thing.

Basically, the argument was  about Champions League places, and i would take a Champions League place over a Carling Cup, 4th was just stressed on bceause it was the minimum placing we had to finish to achieve it.

Offline Coolie High

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #249 on: May 21, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »
as someone once sang

I want it all
I want it all
and I want it now

But in between I will accept three trips to Wembley, knocking both Manchester clubs out of cups, and picking up myself the first trophy we have won in six years!

Can I also say Wenger won nothing for 7 years but gets into the CL lovely, but  doesn't win that either so other than TV Revenue what have their fans got to show for all this supposed success other than a few passport stamps and the odd postcard home!

Only that despite this we are still in a worse position than Wenger, i would trade a Carling Cup for a 3rd place finish and for Kenny to still be at this job.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #250 on: May 21, 2012, 12:10:58 AM »
Only that despite this we are still in a worse position than Wenger, i would trade a Carling Cup for a 3rd place finish and for Kenny to still be at this job.

do you know a lot of Arse fans would disagree with you about the first bit, most fans like their day at Wembley and a shiny thing at the end rather than a good spreadsheet figure!

As for Kenny he should still be here now,  but I dont think that had anything to do with our position in the league, except for giving them a convenient excuse to hide the real reasons!
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Offline vagabond

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #251 on: May 21, 2012, 12:12:18 AM »
This dichotomy is pointless. 4th place is no achievement in and of itself, while the Carling Cup is. However, 4th place is a far more important stepping stone (in most seasons) towards the ultimate achievement of winning the League than the Carling Cup perhaps is. One can want both.

Offline John C

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #252 on: May 21, 2012, 12:14:00 AM »
do you know a lot of Arse fans would disagree with you about the first bit, most fans like their day at Wembley and a shiny thing at the end rather than a good spreadsheet figure!
Our mediocrity is shinier than their mediocrity.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #253 on: May 21, 2012, 12:21:22 AM »
Our mediocrity is shinier than their mediocrity.

John nothing mediocre about winning one cup and putting United out of the other, nevermind won more this season than Fergie, maybe people need to revalue the way they judge success perhaps!

But elsewhere Montpelier just won the French League having spent just 2 mill against the PSG mega euro's club and other richer clubs and from a position of 14th last season, so the idea that you need to challenge from being in the top four or being bankrolled by a billionaire doesn't apply there does it?

Are you saying with the right manager or a lucky manager like Pardew we cannot win the league next year then because we finished 8th this year?
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Offline Lucas21

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #254 on: May 21, 2012, 12:43:00 AM »
John nothing mediocre about winning one cup and putting United out of the other, nevermind won more this season than Mr Alex Ferguson, maybe people need to revalue the way they judge success perhaps!


But there is plenty mediocre about classing knocking United out of a cup as a success. Sounding like the Bitters there

Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #255 on: May 21, 2012, 02:33:51 AM »
You can't aim to win the CL unless you qualify for it.

But I'll play your game. When Liverpool were "only" in the group stages or early knockout stages of the Champions League, NOBODY was saying "gee, winning the Carling Cup would be so much better!"

Because it wasn't true. No club in the Champions League would trade it for winning the League Cup. Top players would rather play in the Champions League than win the League Cup. Ever heard a top player say "I may look to move this summer unless we win the League Cup." Or, "Playing in the Champions League was OK, but it didn't look like we were ever going to win the League Cup, so I put in a transfer request so I could fulfill my ambitions of winning the League Cup."

There's no point in pretending otherwise.

100% correct, and your last sentence sums up the bizarre charade that seems to be the party line at RAWK these days. Let's pretend that we value a Carling Cup win more than we value being even a semi-competent league team. Let's pretend that it's 1984 again, we're 10 years old, and we are truly made up at the end of the season by our carling Cup. It is a complete falsehood. 

And to answer the original question, I'd rather show solid professional form over 38 games in the ultimate contest - the prem - than win the Carling Cup. And as I said in another thread, people who point to the CC as a great success and deride the aim of 4th as "a lack of patience/wanting it all now" etc. have got it completely backwards. The Carling Cup is the ultimate short-term victory. It gives you a great day out at Wembley and then nothing afterwards. A good league campaign, where you establish yourself as one of the top 4 teams in the country (completely removing any talk of the CL from the equation) gives you a platform to build on for the next season, and the one after that - it gives you a realistic hope that, if you just improve a little, you could potentially be in the hunt for the title next spring.

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #256 on: May 21, 2012, 02:34:50 AM »
Good post MR.
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Offline oojason

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #257 on: May 21, 2012, 03:03:57 AM »

And to answer the original question, I'd rather show solid professional form over 38 games in the ultimate contest - the prem - than win the Carling Cup. And as I said in another thread, people who point to the CC as a great success and deride the aim of 4th as "a lack of patience/wanting it all now" etc. have got it completely backwards. The Carling Cup is the ultimate short-term victory. It gives you a great day out at Wembley and then nothing afterwards. A good league campaign, where you establish yourself as one of the top 4 teams in the country (completely removing any talk of the CL from the equation) gives you a platform to build on for the next season, and the one after that - it gives you a realistic hope that, if you just improve a little, you could potentially be in the hunt for the title next spring.

We're not in the top 4 as of yet, and whilst we're trying to improve to get there then winning the Carling Cup - and let'd not forget so-nearly winning the FA Cup - is a good base to start from. It gives players confidence, experience of how to win tough games under pressure, and will help attract those players who will make us better - and gives us fans something to be cheerful for.

It's not a question of 4th or winning the Carling Cup - it's a question of progress to that goal of competing for all honours, and with the recent history of our club - not to mention the events of this season and having a new manager in winning the League Cup and nearly getting the FA Cup should be worth more to the MD of the club than coming out after the new manager has just been sacked after 18 months and saying it wouldn't been enough to keep him in a job as the revenues from those competition aren't good enough.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #258 on: May 21, 2012, 03:11:51 AM »
Well said Mumm-Ra.  There is a shifting of goalposts here which is mostly made easy by the fact that no one was stupid enough to suggest that winning the league cup was better than getting to the late stages of the champions league.  FFS people were disappointed as hell that we were only in the Europa cup and not the champions league.  Its quite simple really, you and I could have a whip around and organise a cup and get Liverpool to participate in it and it would count as silverware but if we are being honest, its a fucking mickey mouse cup because you and I conjured it from out of nothing pretty much.  There is a lot of delusion on at the moment. 

Nothing wrong with the league cup win but its not exactly the pinnacle of a footballer's career.  The champions league might be though.  And you've got to be in it to win it.  I reckon Mum-Ra, Finn and Redmark have all got it right here.  Suggesting FSG want us to just finish in the fourth spot to keep revenues running is frankly laughable and can mostly be attributed to Ayre's verbal diarrhoea and even though I think he should shut his mouth immediately I don't suspect for one second that he is saying that 4th is the height of our ambitions.
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Offline woof

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #259 on: May 21, 2012, 03:13:47 AM »
I think the phrasing of the question could be put better. It's utterly nuts to compare fourth place and winning a trophy. However, if we looked at the bigger picture and I'm sure most of you would agree that winning the league remains the holy grail, then the Carling Cup is worth as much as toilet paper. Historically, the eventual champions of the league come from the top3 position from the previous season. It is quite unlikely for a team to finish 8th and then become the champions the following season. With that in mind, getting to top 3 or 4 (i.e. CL spots) becomes a springboard for the next season to be genuine contenders.

Offline tamadic

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #260 on: May 21, 2012, 03:24:17 AM »
Sorry, someone may say it already here.
Funnily enough, 4th is good, but not this season.
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Offline coolbyrne

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #261 on: May 21, 2012, 03:31:36 AM »
John nothing mediocre about winning one cup and putting United out of the other, nevermind won more this season than Mr Alex Ferguson, maybe people need to revalue the way they judge success perhaps!

So we should revalue our success based on how many bits of silverware United win or don't win? Is that the road we want to go down? "We finished 8th, but that's okay because we won the Carling Cup and they didn't, neener neener neener!"

This isn't directed at you, but I wondered this yesterday while watching the CL final and this might be a good place to ask it: if you could choose between the penalty shoot-out between AC Milan and Liverpool in Istanbul, or the penalty shoot-out between Cardiff City and Liverpool at Wembley, which would you choose?
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #262 on: May 21, 2012, 03:39:49 AM »
This dichotomy is pointless. 4th place is no achievement in and of itself, while the Carling Cup is. However, 4th place is a far more important stepping stone (in most seasons) towards the ultimate achievement of winning the League than the Carling Cup perhaps is. One can want both.

This.  4th (or more accurately, Champion's League places) is a stepping stone to league trophies, FA Cup trophies, and even Carling Cup trophies.  No one wants to be Arsenal, finishing 4th every year and nothing more.  We want 4th because without it we can't compete in the CL, and without the CL we have difficulty both affording and attracting the quality players that will bring us more trophies.
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Offline Kopitian

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #263 on: May 21, 2012, 03:45:34 AM »
why is there an "or" in the question.

we are liverpool football club. Our achievements to aim for should never have an "or"

Offline PJG

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #264 on: May 21, 2012, 03:52:28 AM »
I wonder what Birmingham were thinking last year

So not getting relegated or the Carling Cup?

Offline BostonScouse

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #265 on: May 21, 2012, 04:08:54 AM »
You can't compete for all the trophies unless you are in the top 4, and you can't attract world class players unless you are competing for all the trophies. That's why, in my opinion, it's more important to get 4th place and an opportunity to play for every trophy than anything else, and then win a couple in the process.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #266 on: May 21, 2012, 04:27:47 AM »
You can't compete for all the trophies unless you are in the top 4, and you can't attract world class players unless you are competing for all the trophies. That's why, in my opinion, it's more important to get 4th place and an opportunity to play for every trophy than anything else, and then win a couple in the process.

What if you try and get fourth, miss out but win one cup and get to the final of the other. (Liverpool)

What if you invest all of your resources into league position, win nothing but come fourth - and still miss out in CL qualification. (Spurs)

It isn't a precise science. But some things help a lot. Spurs have had stability, trust and backing for their footballing management and consistant investment.

We have had two managers sacked, the DoF appointed and subsequently sacked for an unbelievable series of blunders. We have a recruitment process for MD resulting in hiring the marketing guy. We have sacked our Director of Communications just before the MD goes out and puts his feet in his mouth by saying we don't value the cups as much as the league position - despite him introducing an auto-cup money making scheme. (as someone on twitter said: a gerald ratner moment). We flip-flopped on the Suarez racism row and eventually threw Dalglish and Suarez under the bus.

That's why in my opinion it is more important to get the footballing and managerial structures in place, maybe win a trophy or two in the process before deciding whether we have been successful or not.

Offline Fordy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #267 on: May 21, 2012, 04:59:03 AM »
Ashley Cole said it all for me.

After the CL final in his interview he said:

"This is why I came here, no one can say anything to me now - this is why I came here"

Now at Arsenal it seems that getting into the CL is the most important thing to them and not winning things - and they haven't won anything for 7 years. So Cole was playing for a club that lost their sole. While he was a Arsenal the aim was to win but then things changed and the aim became CL football.

Chelsea aim has been clear for a long time - we're here to win things.

If Liverpool want to be in the CL - No point just being in it - the aim has to be to win the god dam thing. Under Rafa that was the aim..

Under Kenny the aim was to WIN hence why he said he would swap the Carling Cup for anything.

No point aiming for 4th as anything but 1st is nowhere. No point entering a competition if the aim isn't to win.

Offline Vidocq

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #268 on: May 21, 2012, 05:16:43 AM »
i'm pretty sure being in ch.l brings more money to the club than winning carling cup
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Offline Fordy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #269 on: May 21, 2012, 05:29:48 AM »
i'm pretty sure being in ch.l brings more money to the club than winning carling cup

So is that what you support Liverpool for? Generating money.

Offline mtpeters

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #270 on: May 21, 2012, 05:38:37 AM »
We're not in the top 4 as of yet, and whilst we're trying to improve to get there then winning the Carling Cup - and let'd not forget so-nearly winning the FA Cup - is a good base to start from. It gives players confidence, experience of how to win tough games under pressure, and will help attract those players who will make us better - and gives us fans something to be cheerful for.

It's not a question of 4th or winning the Carling Cup - it's a question of progress to that goal of competing for all honours, and with the recent history of our club - not to mention the events of this season and having a new manager in winning the League Cup and nearly getting the FA Cup should be worth more to the MD of the club than coming out after the new manager has just been sacked after 18 months and saying it wouldn't been enough to keep him in a job as the revenues from those competition aren't good enough.

Actually, that was THE question...and a fucking stupid one at that lol  ;D

Offline Another Red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #271 on: May 21, 2012, 05:55:24 AM »
In February, I said the Carling Cup. A trophy and 5th/6th finish (what most of us were expecting at the time), would have been a reasonable result. I don't think anyone expected our league form to spiral out of control as rapidly as it did towards the end. So in hindsight, I'd much prefer us to have finished 3rd than win the Carling Cup & finish 8th, behind Everton.

The league position is a much better indicator of where we are as a team and the difference between finishing 3rd and 8th is enormous.

Offline Discipline

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #272 on: May 21, 2012, 05:56:09 AM »
I was delighted when we won the Carling Cup this season but if I had choice next season for either CL or the Carling Cup + FA cup, I'd pick the CL any day of the week.
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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #273 on: May 21, 2012, 05:57:24 AM »
100% correct, and your last sentence sums up the bizarre charade that seems to be the party line at RAWK these days. Let's pretend that we value a Carling Cup win more than we value being even a semi-competent league team. Let's pretend that it's 1984 again, we're 10 years old, and we are truly made up at the end of the season by our carling Cup. It is a complete falsehood. 

And to answer the original question, I'd rather show solid professional form over 38 games in the ultimate contest - the prem - than win the Carling Cup. And as I said in another thread, people who point to the CC as a great success and deride the aim of 4th as "a lack of patience/wanting it all now" etc. have got it completely backwards. The Carling Cup is the ultimate short-term victory. It gives you a great day out at Wembley and then nothing afterwards. A good league campaign, where you establish yourself as one of the top 4 teams in the country (completely removing any talk of the CL from the equation) gives you a platform to build on for the next season, and the one after that - it gives you a realistic hope that, if you just improve a little, you could potentially be in the hunt for the title next spring.

Absolutely spot on that.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #274 on: May 21, 2012, 06:00:53 AM »
100% correct, and your last sentence sums up the bizarre charade that seems to be the party line at RAWK these days. Let's pretend that we value a Carling Cup win more than we value being even a semi-competent league team. Let's pretend that it's 1984 again, we're 10 years old, and we are truly made up at the end of the season by our carling Cup. It is a complete falsehood. 

And to answer the original question, I'd rather show solid professional form over 38 games in the ultimate contest - the prem - than win the Carling Cup. And as I said in another thread, people who point to the CC as a great success and deride the aim of 4th as "a lack of patience/wanting it all now" etc. have got it completely backwards. The Carling Cup is the ultimate short-term victory. It gives you a great day out at Wembley and then nothing afterwards. A good league campaign, where you establish yourself as one of the top 4 teams in the country (completely removing any talk of the CL from the equation) gives you a platform to build on for the next season, and the one after that - it gives you a realistic hope that, if you just improve a little, you could potentially be in the hunt for the title next spring.

What like Arsenal and Spurs?

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #275 on: May 21, 2012, 06:00:56 AM »
The question should be, what would hurt more... after 38 league games missing out on CL football on the final day or losing a CC final to a Championship team in extra time?

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #276 on: May 21, 2012, 06:03:34 AM »


No point aiming for 4th as anything but 1st is nowhere. No point entering a competition if the aim isn't to win.


Are you really that short-sighted? The aim isn't to finish top 4 and be happy with that. The aim is to finish top 4 so it can be used as a stepping stone hopefully towards winning the thing we all really want. The league title.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #277 on: May 21, 2012, 06:05:43 AM »
What like Arsenal and Spurs?

No-one is saying your guarenteed to win the league title finishing in the top 4 but, it certainly gives you a better chance.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #278 on: May 21, 2012, 06:16:15 AM »
What like Arsenal and Spurs?

They are closer to the top than us.  First is first, second is nothing shouldn't be taken literally.  To say there is no difference between finishing second and 16th as I've read is ridiculous. 
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #279 on: May 21, 2012, 06:17:56 AM »
Are you really that short-sighted? The aim isn't to finish top 4 and be happy with that. The aim is to finish top 4 so it can be used as a stepping stone hopefully towards winning the thing we all really want. The league title.

And of course the champions league, to qualify for which we need to be in the top 4.  There is some serious shortsighted shit here.  And some straw man arguments as well. 
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The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.