Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 75595 times)

Offline Junkle

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #200 on: May 20, 2012, 08:20:18 PM »
What I find interesting about all the fans that say top 4 finish over actually winning things needs to be the priority is that they completely ignore that a team has been doing that for what 6/7 years. Arsenal fans in the main seem to have have had enough of Wenger and his 'successful' top 4 finish every year, why? Because they actually want to win some trophies, all this 'if you finish in the top 4 you get more money and can attract better players so you can compete for the title' doesn't seem to pan out, if anything, Arsenal have ended up selling their best players and getting lesser players in and they have made the top 4 every year for what 10 years? Give me trophies every time.

BUT wenger does not spend that money hence the outcry.
The weakest link in the team is our main man BR.

Offline Waka

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #201 on: May 20, 2012, 08:28:06 PM »
That's correct and the reason for the question is to point out that this year the question is moot.

Ah, i think it's very easy to ask that question now that we know the outcome, yes 4th spot this year is a Europa place but nobody was to know.

People can gloss it up with Carling Cups and FA cup finals but our league form this year was a disaster, no two ways about it.

Offline red saint

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #202 on: May 20, 2012, 08:31:26 PM »
The object is to win the league. As we all agreed that takes money and the ability to attract the best players so it's an absolute no brainier 4th place on the way to 1st.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #203 on: May 20, 2012, 08:32:50 PM »
As both go into the Europa League now it makes no fucking difference apart from a couple of extra qualifying games.






Brilliant.
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Offline Alf Garnett!

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #204 on: May 20, 2012, 08:34:15 PM »
Some eye openers here,with the set up in place here income is vital-if we had another season like this i dont think we'd have a budget for players next summer-getting a CL place next season changes that.

Progression is key,amazes me some good posters here cant see that.

Offline Flyhalf

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #205 on: May 20, 2012, 08:40:40 PM »
Come on now ffs, your now happy with Liverpool fc not challenging for the league title and being competitive in the league over winning the smallest cup competition in england?
 I went that final and I have to say, I was underwhelmed, I honestly don't know what all the fuss was about, it was as if we hadn't won any silverware in 50 years. Also the manner in which we won it, Cardiff city, going to penalties...?
 We need to be in Europe for lots of reasons, for me it's competing with the best teams in the land for the biggest trophy in world football only bettered by the world cup. It's where Liverpool belongs, we've won it how many times now? But by saying you would rather win the carling cup above being 4th, your effectively saying your happy competing with the likes of fulham and sunderland, Swansea.... Wigan. Instead of are old rivals, we have competed with since the days of old for the title of best team in England.

Well I had fucking brilliant day. And I'm getting mightily pissed off with people belittling it cos it was 'only Cardiff', conveniently forgetting the teams we beat on the way there.

Who could forget Suarez's stunning goal against Stoke. Chelsea was a brilliant night, and then to turn over Man City over two legs. Don't tell me the City players didn't want it!

I'm with Kenny, I wouldn't swap it for anything, thanks.

Offline kazzzz

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #206 on: May 20, 2012, 08:41:34 PM »
carling cup last season and top 4 next season imo
Liverpool is different than any team from any American sport. You're not just a fan who's rooting for your team to prevail and win the big trophy. It's absolutely in your blood, effecting you nonstop, you want nothing but the best for your Liverpool family. You want to share in the struggles and the triumph just as a family would.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #207 on: May 20, 2012, 08:48:39 PM »
I am wondering whether our new manager will be told to field weakened teams in the cups now, I mean, they apparently don't count for anything. I really hope not.

You mean like Rafa, Rafa would of took 4th over the league cup anyday. The team finishing 4th means they have a good chance of winning the league and have had a good season.

Here's another question,

Who would take 4th next season and within spitting distance of winning the league  or The Carling cup again and nearer to going down again.
I know which one I would take.

Offline El Torres gol

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #208 on: May 20, 2012, 08:51:59 PM »
who cares?
I get the point Alan but my hero got sacked by americans who no nothing about the game I love(ed) and that keeps me awake at night, not the question posted here
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #209 on: May 20, 2012, 08:58:06 PM »
You mean like Rafa, Rafa would of took 4th over the league cup anyday. The team finishing 4th means they have a good chance of winning the league and have had a good season.

Here's another question,

Who would take 4th next season and within spitting distance of winning the league  or The Carling cup again and nearer to going down again.
I know which one I would take.

i choose the one you get a trophy for.
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Offline Carolina Red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #210 on: May 20, 2012, 08:59:30 PM »
Remember a couple years ago when Liverpool were going to Champions League finals and semifinals and thrashing Barca, Real Madrid, and the rest of Europe's elite? Remember how we were all saying "Yeah that's pretty good, but winning the League Cup would be just as good"? Yeah I don't remember that either, because NOBODY thought that at the time.

Arguing that the Carling Cup is just as good as competing in the Champions League is an obvious excuse to define down what constitutes "success."

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #211 on: May 20, 2012, 09:00:56 PM »
Remember a couple years ago when Liverpool were going to Champions League finals and semifinals and thrashing Barca, Real Madrid, and the rest of Europe's elite? Remember how we were all saying "Yeah that's pretty good, but winning the League Cup would be just as good"? Yeah I don't remember that either, because NOBODY thought that at the time.

Arguing that the Carling Cup is just as good as competing in the Champions League is an obvious excuse to define down what constitutes "success."

winning trophies is success.

Fucks sake how hard is that to understand. you get fuck all four finishing fourth and fuck all for beating a few top sides in the CL, fuck all.
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Offline wewonit5timesinistanbul

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #212 on: May 20, 2012, 09:02:24 PM »
as a supporter it got to be a cup, as nothing beats a good day out at a final and watching Liverpool win a cup. for the club its got to be 4th spot as Champions league helps the coffers and the more money we make the better chance we have of winning a cup/league., giving me the supporter a better chance of going to more cup finals.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #213 on: May 20, 2012, 09:08:34 PM »
That's correct and the reason for the question is to point out that this year the question is moot.

Forgive me, but the question is not moot, even this season.

While 4th didn't get Spurs CL qualification this season, it got them EL qualification directly to the group stages. It also gave them significantly more money than 8th place and the Carling Cup gave us.

I see zero evidence to support the implied argument that we "chose to concentrate on the Cups vs reaching for 4th". None.

Pretending that there was such a conscious choice made is making virtue out of necessity.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #214 on: May 20, 2012, 09:09:33 PM »
winning trophies is success.

Fucks sake how hard is that to understand. you get fuck all four finishing fourth and fuck all for beating a few top sides in the CL, fuck all.

Money and exposure is "fuck all" apparently. And winning the Carling Cup gets you everything.

Sure it does.
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Offline just Riggins?

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #215 on: May 20, 2012, 09:13:11 PM »
The cup everyday of the week.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #216 on: May 20, 2012, 09:15:52 PM »
Money and exposure is "fuck all" apparently. And winning the Carling Cup gets you everything.

Sure it does.

since when did we all become bankers. I'm in it for the trophies.
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Offline teganyavo

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #217 on: May 20, 2012, 09:18:43 PM »
Fourth place... as Chelsea proved last night, any side with a bit of quality can win the European Cup tournament. You can't win the thing if you're not playing in it, though. I personally miss Liverpool being a Champions League side and I think returning to that level is more important than winning domestic trophies, especially when you consider the fact that Champions League qualification goes hand-in-glove with the most important domestic trophy, the Premiership.

Before us, the Carling Cup winners were Birmingham. Not to discredit their accomplishment, they played a fantastic tournament, but they just finished 4th place in the Championship. Liverpool F.C. is what it is because of European Cup victories, not because of victories in a tournament won by a championship side.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 09:24:40 PM by teganyavo »

Offline Alf Garnett!

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #218 on: May 20, 2012, 09:26:17 PM »
since when did we all become bankers. I'm in it for the trophies.

Thing is mate,if we were happy to go down that road-eventually we'd be no different from Middlesbro,Villa,Leicester etc..

You look at the previous winners of the League cup who finished ouside the CL places & that itself says everything.

If we had owners with deep pockets,that changes my opinion.

Offline Il Capitano

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #219 on: May 20, 2012, 09:26:18 PM »
Finishing top four is ultimately the short-termist's preference. Winning trophies marks you down in history as having achieved and taken something from the season, whilst aspiring to finish in the top four is a lust after money, fame, attraction and exposure: an immature gluttony of the idea of riches, that has taken hold of the modern game. Champions league qualification is not an achievement in of itself, and not something to remember. The "money - > better players - > success" path that people have formulated in their minds as justification for this short-termism is a myth. You become dependant upon the vices of European football to get your fix - so much so that it becomes the sole focus of the club to perpetually continue its status, at the cost of progression and at a cost of its history.

Offline Red number seven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #220 on: May 20, 2012, 09:26:29 PM »
Come on now ffs, your now happy with Liverpool fc not challenging for the league title and being competitive in the league over winning the smallest cup competition in england?
I will never be happy with Liverpool not winning the league, but I am realistic to see we are not good enough at present and we need to make progress towards that goal. Some of that progress is getting used to the feeling of winning trophies. But let's not preted that 3rd and 4th is "competing for the title"; Arsenal and Spurs were not competitivie in the league and haven't really been for a long time.

I went that final and I have to say, I was underwhelmed, I honestly don't know what all the fuss was about, it was as if we hadn't won any silverware in 50 years. Also the manner in which we won it, Cardiff city, going to penalties...
We also beat Chelsea, City and Stoke on their own patches to win that "smallest trophy in English football" but let's not stand in the way of massive reductionism, eh? Suffice to say, next time, sell your ticket to someone who will enter into the spirit of it (at face value of course) and save your money for the next Istanbul, because that's clearly the only final that is good enough for you.

I have seen Liverpool win the league cup many times now, and I have never, ever got bored of or been underwhelmed by it. I would rather it was the European Cup, or the League, but consistently winning trophies even when you're going through a pretty mediocre spell is an excellent habit.

We need to be in Europe for lots of reasons,
We're in Europe.  Or are you going to dis another trophy in our glorious history?
for me it's competing with the best teams in the land for the biggest trophy in world football only bettered by the world cup. It's where Liverpool belongs, we've won it how many times now?
You seriously asking that?
But by saying you would rather win the carling cup above being 4th, your effectively saying your happy competing with the likes of fulham and sunderland, Swansea.... Wigan. ?
...Chelsea, City...
Instead of are old rivals, we have competed with since the days of old for the title of best team in England.
...And beat them, at our best, to trophies like the League, the European Cup and the League cup (1981,2,3 and 4) - it was good enough to be celebrated by Hansen, Dalglish, Rush, Souness, Paisley, Fagan; it should be good enough to be celebrated by Reina, Agger, Gerrard, Suarez and you.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #221 on: May 20, 2012, 09:28:46 PM »
Thing is mate,if we were happy to go down that road-eventually we'd be no different from Middlesbro,Villa,Leicester etc..

You look at the previous winners of the League cup who finished ouside the CL places & that itself says everything.

If we had owners with deep pockets,that changes my opinion.

i'd rather win the league, until that days comes i'll take the carling cup and fa cups.
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Offline ryatnalkar

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #222 on: May 20, 2012, 09:32:47 PM »
i'd rather win the league, until that days comes i'll take the carling cup and fa cups.

The thing is ACHP, we can win both those cups every year for next 100 years being in championship and still not have a clue about league title. I am not belittling our achievement this year, but its just lame to put such thick glasses and say that we had a better season than Spurs. They are closer to league title than we are is the truth. (People here are making out as if we lost 4th place by a point or GD. ) Now I understand football changes really fast. But a side that finished 4th last season has a better chance at title than the side that finished 8th.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #223 on: May 20, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »
The thing is ACHP, we can win both those cups every year for next 100 years being in championship and still not have a clue about league title. I am not belittling our achievement this year, but its just lame to put such thick glasses and say that we had a better season than Spurs. They are closer to league title than we are is the truth. (People here are making out as if we lost 4th place by a point or GD. ) Now I understand football changes really fast. But a side that finished 4th last season has a better chance at title than the side that finished 8th.

i understand completely, we was in the CL for years and didnt win the league though, some people think if we get in it, thats it , we'll win the league.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #224 on: May 20, 2012, 09:34:47 PM »
since when did we all become bankers. I'm in it for the trophies.

Surely, it's understandable that as supporters we care about "money and exposure" only to the extent that they allow our club to attract better footballers, to play better football, and to win the League, Cups, compete and/or win the CL, etc.

We're not bankers or share-holders. We're not interested in LFC being a financially sound, even prosperous, club for the birds.

On the other hand, not seeing being in good financial shape as a necessary condition for footballing success and progress is a bit mysterious.
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Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #225 on: May 20, 2012, 09:35:37 PM »
Surely, it's understandable that as supporters we care about "money and exposure" only to the extent that they allow our club to attract better footballers, to play better football, and to win the League, Cups, compete and/or win the CL, etc.

We're not bankers or share-holders. We're not interested in LFC being a financially sound, even prosperous, club for the birds.

On the other hand, not seeing being in good financial shape as a necessary condition for footballing success and progress is a bit mysterious.


i dont care about money or exposure, call me a glory hunter but i'm in it for the trophies.
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #226 on: May 20, 2012, 09:39:08 PM »
. But a side that finished 4th last season has a better chance at title than the side that finished 8th.
Logically that's true, but I think us and Spurs are equally likely to win the league next season.

Neither of us will be anywhere near competing, as neither of us were this season (really)

Harsh on Spurs, who probably believed for a long time (and I would hvae hads I been a Spurs fan to be fair), but did anyone other than Spurs fans ever believe there was any chance on earth they would be anywhere near being above United and City come the end of the season? Never crossed my mind.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 09:41:23 PM by Red number seven »
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline Red number seven

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #227 on: May 20, 2012, 09:43:03 PM »
i dont care about money or exposure, call me a glory hunter but i'm in it for the trophies.
I agree - although money and exposure probably - on balance - does increase your chances of winning yet more trophies.

But doesn't winning trophies give you money and exposure too?

Im confused - are we being asked to pick between money and exposure on one hand and trophies on the other, because I have to say I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline And Could He Play

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #228 on: May 20, 2012, 09:43:57 PM »
exactly , surely winning trophies gets you exposure.
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Offline Caffeine

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #229 on: May 20, 2012, 10:02:06 PM »
Go back and read the OP.

Question: This season, that's this season, getting fourth place and winning the Carling Cup both get you into the Europa League... Champions League is irrelevant.

But the target for the season wasn't fourth for the sake of picking a random league position. It was fourth on the basis that it would get us into the CL. Not to mention the fact that third and fourth was only decided on the last day.

The question should be "Champions League next season or a Carling Cup?"

Offline ryatnalkar

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #230 on: May 20, 2012, 10:02:40 PM »
i understand completely, we was in the CL for years and didnt win the league though, some people think if we get in it, thats it , we'll win the league.
Obviously, thats not true. But there is absolutely nothing a Carling cup can do to your mentality if you manage to win what 4 games out of the last 19 in the league? So yeah, in that context, a 20 games win season than a 13 game win season for me. (I just dished out those numbers to make the point about confidence and positives in a side, nowt to do with our current season)
Logically that's true, but I think us and Spurs are equally likely to win the league next season.

Neither of us will be anywhere near competing, as neither of us were this season (really)

Harsh on Spurs, who probably believed for a long time (and I would hvae hads I been a Spurs fan to be fair), but did anyone other than Spurs fans ever believe there was any chance on earth they would be anywhere near being above United and City come the end of the season? Never crossed my mind.

Spurs are right now, so much ahead of us, they have outplayed us for last 3 years. I know both the clubs stand very little chance of winning the league. But man to man, they have a better squad than us and 3 years back that wasnt even a close question. The only thing thats holding them back is Arry and their wage limits. A tactician with some little more money support and they would have challenged this year IMO.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #231 on: May 20, 2012, 10:04:21 PM »
This is getting a bit pathetic now. The premise of this thread is quite ridiculous really, there was no way of knowing that 4th would not guarantee you a place in the CL at the start of the season. That was the minimum goal which all parties agreed to. People need to grow up and stop spitting their dummies out because King Kenny has been sacked. If it was any other manager there would be no outcry
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #232 on: May 20, 2012, 10:08:27 PM »
Remember a couple years ago when Liverpool were going to Champions League finals and semifinals and thrashing Barca, Real Madrid, and the rest of Europe's elite? Remember how we were all saying "Yeah that's pretty good, but winning the League Cup would be just as good"? Yeah I don't remember that either, because NOBODY thought that at the time.

Arguing that the Carling Cup is just as good as competing in the Champions League is an obvious excuse to define down what constitutes "success."

There was a fundamental difference then. Read your post back and you'll get it - finals and semi-finals... We weren't aiming to get into fourth and just be in the Champions League, under Rafa we were aiming to win the fucking thing. In those circumstances it made sense to make choices about where to focus our (limited) resources depending on the circumstances. The grand fallacy is that it's possible to decide where you will be successful each season as the the OP demonstrates.

No one thinks winning the Carling Cup is as good as winning the European Cup but it is better than going out after the group stages of the Champions League and winning fuck all year after year. As I said before - it's just swapping one level of mediocrity for another.
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Offline Arcadian

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #233 on: May 20, 2012, 10:17:43 PM »


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The object is to win everything. These goals are not mutually exclusive.


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Offline Caffeine

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #234 on: May 20, 2012, 10:21:36 PM »
Did people complain about Rafa's half strength league cup teams when we were trying to sustain our position in the top 4?

Offline Michigan Red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #235 on: May 20, 2012, 10:22:58 PM »
i dont care about money or exposure, call me a glory hunter but i'm in it for the trophies.

Screw the league then. Lets focus solely on winning the Carling every year.

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #236 on: May 20, 2012, 10:27:28 PM »
since when did we all become bankers. I'm in it for the trophies.

When we say "18-5", why is that? Why don't we add FA cups and League cups?
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Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #237 on: May 20, 2012, 10:28:26 PM »
i'd rather win the league, until that days comes i'll take the carling cup and fa cups.

To win the league, we need to progress in the league.
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Offline Michigan Red

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #238 on: May 20, 2012, 10:29:28 PM »
To win the league, we need to progress in the league.

Exactly. And cracking the top 4 is a good stepping stone towards that goal. Winning FA and Carling cups is not. They are competitions in which teams often don't even field full strength squads.

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #239 on: May 20, 2012, 10:31:22 PM »
There was a fundamental difference then. Read your post back and you'll get it - finals and semi-finals... We weren't aiming to get into fourth and just be in the Champions League, under Rafa we were aiming to win the fucking thing. In those circumstances it made sense to make choices about where to focus our (limited) resources depending on the circumstances. The grand fallacy is that it's possible to decide where you will be successful each season as the the OP demonstrates.

No one thinks winning the Carling Cup is as good as winning the European Cup but it is better than going out after the group stages of the Champions League and winning fuck all year after year. As I said before - it's just swapping one level of mediocrity for another.

Then you're assuming the goal of the owners is ONLY to reach the top four for financial benefit - and presumably not reinvest that money? If and when that happens, I'll join you on the barricades. But we need to finish top four to make the money and attract the players to become a real force in the league again. If in the tournament, with a good manager (maybe even Rafa himself), why can't we win it?
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