Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 75593 times)

Offline kdorg

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2012, 05:18:50 PM »
Our league campaign was disappointing. Disappointing not disastrous.

The honours board at the Emirates has yet to record any silverware since they moved in. I'm sure they like the money from the CL (so would I) but a trophy wins EVERY time.

It goes down in the history books, it adds glory to the club. Call me an old romantic but pots are prizes, not somewhere to stash your wedge.

It's a good point too - as while CL qualification is supposed to be the holy grail in terms of attracting good players and I'm not saying it won't be to a degree, truth is Arsenal have been having trouble holding on to their best players because winning nowt, when a playing career is short, loses its charms. Henry left to go win the CL instead of be in it. Fabregas got sick of winning nowt and the final straw was not being able to win the Carling Cup. Van Persie is now looking to go as he's not had a medal of any description since 2005... etc

Being in the CL without winning it, won't necessarily be enough to keep the best players and improve your competitiveness long term. Van Persie was the difference between top 4 or not for Arsenal this year, if he does go - there great model may not actually continue to get them to top 4. Unless Wenger has some 18 year old wonder kid in the wings that's gonna bang in 30 goals for them next season.

I think being in it if people really think you might win it is a draw card but being like Arsenal - I don't think that is appealing to top players at all. It's the good ship win fuck all at the emirates.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 05:20:51 PM by kdorg »

Offline andyrol

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2012, 05:33:33 PM »
its very true this attitude of being IN the champions league doesnt mean all the top stars will flock. but WINNING the champions league or at least getting to semi's etc regularly will. much the same as this myth about the league ( premier league) being liverpools 'bread and butter' it never was. what shankly did was tap the trophy and say "this is our bread and butter" i.e. WINNING the league not finishing high up, not finishing second even but WINNING it. he also said in that interview ' cups and europe were great, great for the club and great for the city' i still think if he were alive today he'd say the same thing and hold no truck with this 'finishing 4th is better than the league cup/fa cup' stance held by loads of people today.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2012, 05:38:30 PM »
Finishing 3rd or 4th, while making it to the round of 8 or 16 in the CL without winning either domestic cup is preferable than winning the Carling Cup and finishing 8th in the League.


The 4th spot not being a CL spot this season means absolutely nothing, as it is a very unusual event.

A disappointing domestic league season is ameliorated by success in the Champions League, even the Europa League, and winning the FA Cup, or BOTH the Fa Cup and Carling Cup.

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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2012, 05:44:18 PM »
another question could be how long would fans be happy with 7th/8th place finishes but a carling cup win as opposed to no trophy but finish 2nd-6th?it was only at the start of THIS season that some of our fans were dismissing the carling cup as something for the kids and nothing else as it was important to finish top 4 and reclaim our place at the top table (whatever the hell that should be). now it seems that we see the carling cup as some massive achievement to be feared by all.

however the reality is that if all we won year after year the fans would start questioning why more isn't being done to get us to the champions league. there would be moaning about the cup runs hurting our league form, the owners not spending enough to allow us to challenge higher up, the manager would obviously not know what to do to get the league results and therefore should be sacked, on and on and on the calls would go for us to be doing better and the carling cup would start to mean nothing.

Very well put and pretty much the same feelings here.  It depends on the season and the duration of time.  The trophy win this season was huge for us, because it was the longest spell without a trophy since the 1966 - 1973 spell.  However, as you say, if you have a continual run of CC wins but no league improvements, people will get on the backs of the club and manager for not showing enough desire.

Offline SheffieldRed

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2012, 05:50:18 PM »
Right now I'd take a few years of regular CL qualification at the expense of CC/FAC trophies, though it pains me to say that. We need the revenue and the gravitas the CL competition draws to reinvest in the squad and to put us the eye of prospective talent.

But obviously I wouldn't want that trade of long term. I wouldn't want to be a perennial Arsenal.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #165 on: May 20, 2012, 05:50:39 PM »
The 4th spot not being a CL spot this season means absolutely nothing, as it is a very unusual event.


Tell that to Redknapp, Spurs and their supporters... It means something because it happened.

The reason it's been unusual in the past is that the number of entries per country generally approximates to the number of 'top' teams with a chance of wining it. If there are six teams who could do well in the Champions League and only four entry positions then the likelihood of it happening again is significantly increased for this country at least.

The premier league has had eight finalists and three winners in the last seven years. Two of those winners finished outside the top four. Not that unusual?...

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Offline Lucas21

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2012, 05:53:38 PM »
Plastics will say top four.

Match going fans will say a cup final/winning a cup.

I don't spend 45quid a match 2 celebrate pinching a top four places when playing Wigan. Going down to Wembley, winning a cup on penalties. One of the best days i have ever had. It that 'buzz' you get, you don't get that in a league game, or on your sofa.

Yep no comparison, playing Wigan away or Real Madrid, Barcelona away. No comparison at all

Offline Vidocq

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2012, 06:09:40 PM »
Yeah of course:



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Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2012, 06:17:21 PM »
Tell that to Redknapp, Spurs and their supporters... It means something because it happened.

The reason it's been unusual in the past is that the number of entries per country generally approximates to the number of 'top' teams with a chance of wining it. If there are six teams who could do well in the Champions League and only four entry positions then the likelihood of it happening again is significantly increased for this country at least.

The premier league has had eight finalists and three winners in the last seven years. Two of those winners finished outside the top four. Not that unusual?...

So, Spurs having finished fourth means that they go directly into the group stages of the EL. We're in two rounds earlier based on glorious Carling Cup victory. Spurs also get more PL money based on league position finish.

So, we got a trophy. A minor one. Had we won both Cups, then maybe our disappointing league position would be more palatable. Although I think Kenny would have been moved on by FSG, anyway.

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Offline Caffeine

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2012, 06:27:05 PM »
I don't see why it has to be so black and white.

CL or the cups? I'd like us to challenge for both, we all would.

Rafa is rightly loved and adored by a fair proportion of the users here, and his squad got better and better. The 08/09 side is the best LFC team I can remember (I am too young to remember our last title-winning side). We didn't win anything at all that season, but can anyone say it wasn't a fucking ride getting so close to the CL final and the league playing the most entertaining and unpredictable football many of us can remember?

Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2012, 06:40:16 PM »
Our league campaign was disappointing. Disappointing not disastrous.

It was our worst campaign in how many years? It was a little more than disappointing.

Besides I don't see why it has to be one or the other in terms of the OP. Both was certainly achievable this season.

Offline Junkle

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2012, 06:40:30 PM »
For me CL over CC any time. This is not a normal season and you would probably not see it again in the next 10 years. If 4th spot meant CL give me that any time. However if it meant EL like this year give me the cup. Next question...
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Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2012, 06:49:27 PM »
False premise. We all want the league; it's not that long since it was a realistic target. Fourth is better progress toward where we want to be than a carling cup is. How far back would we really need to go in people's posting history to find it described as the 'worthless'?
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2012, 06:51:44 PM »
In 2012 we played 28 games... 19 in the league, and 9 all up in the cups. I want to see us try in more than 9 out of every 28 games, even if only 9 of them are realistically going to get us a trophy.

Offline Junkle

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2012, 06:54:49 PM »
If this question was in relation to Kenny I would like people to remember that the last time Kenny managed us a WIN was 2 points and a DRAW was still 1 point which means that with amount of raws we accumulated this year we could easily have been in CL spot right now and that is how we used to win win. Our worst results used to be draws. In 2012 to be in. CL you have to really win and not play for a draw. I just believe that this coming season Kenny's team would have swapped most of those draws for wins and probably, may be, may be we would be competitive enough to be in the CL spot at the end of the day. My may bes are due to the fact that we would buy a player or two better than what we currently have... Which again I would never bet on because our net was not big enough to catch anything not British. Now we would never know and I wish Kenny could now come out and say we were monitoring player A and player B tfor next season.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #175 on: May 20, 2012, 06:56:20 PM »
It was our worst campaign in how many years? It was a little more than disappointing.

Besides I don't see why it has to be one or the other in terms of the OP. Both was certainly achievable this season.

Go back and read the OP.

Question: This season, that's this season, getting fourth place and winning the Carling Cup both get you into the Europa League... Champions League is irrelevant.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #176 on: May 20, 2012, 07:01:25 PM »
Go back and read the OP.

Question: This season, that's this season, getting fourth place and winning the Carling Cup both get you into the Europa League... Champions League is irrelevant.

4th gets you to the group stage of the EL, this season. Carling Cup gets you to the third qualifying round, with the first match being August 2, this season.

Plus 4th gets you more money from the PL, etc. than 8th, every season.

The only advantage of LFC vis-a-vis Spurs this season: One Carling Cup.
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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #177 on: May 20, 2012, 07:02:44 PM »
False premise. We all want the league; it's not that long since it was a realistic target. Fourth is better progress toward where we want to be than a carling cup is. How far back would we really need to go in people's posting history to find it described as the 'worthless'?


Well as Steve is the the original RAWK editor I'd say the site's position is pretty clear and consistent:

The Glory of the Cups

These days there appears to be an opinion among many Liverpool fans that failure to qualify for the Champions League will render any season worthless. They feel that the cups pale into insignificance when compared to the race for one of the top four spots and the ultimate aim of the League title. This opinion even kept rearing its ugly head during the headlong adrenalin rush of 2001.


Now I'm one of the old school who believes all trophies are important. The "We-might-be-Champions League" (as it should be called) is an important competition don't get me wrong. Its primary purpose though is to generate money for the bigger clubs and was set-up by UEFA to prevent a breakaway European Superleague.

The game of football is not about money, though the press may suggest otherwise. It always was and always will be about GLORY. The winning of the Championship will remain the priority for LFC, our bread and butter as Shankly once said, but who are we to be churlish in denying the Glory that the cups bring?

Our roll of honour is long and distinguished - every cup won has been important. 2001 was a fantastic season with us battling in all 3 cups into May. Who will ever forget Roma away or Barcelona at home? The fantastic performance against Palace at Anfield or the nerve-shredding anxiety of the penalties in Cardiff? Jamie Carragher's sweetly struck winner so unexpected. Owen's double-barrelled dose of genius on a sunny Cardiff afternoon and the crazy, crazy night in Dortmund against the Boca-clad Alaves. "I am not English I am Scouse" as the Basques' slogan became. Great memories all.

The cut and thrust of the sword-fight provided by these knock-out games help sustain us through those long away trips in the league to the likes of Charlton, Middlesbrough and Southampton. Have some of our fans have forgotten how to enjoy football? Its simplicity, purity and sheer beauty thrills me still. Perhaps they over-analyse financial implications and weigh up big-name buys with alacrity.

Perhaps they have forgotten that if 11 dustmen, true and fair, beat Real Madrid in a game of football on a park pitch, the Glory is theirs. And the duty of every club must remain to compete to the best of their ability for every trophy they enter. The dignity of the club and the loyalty of the fans shouldn't be lightly cast-away.

So if you're currently ambivalent towards our run to the final of the so-called "Worthless Cup" remember, now is the time to enjoy football. Rejoice in the success. Drink a toast to the glorious pursuit of the cup, no matter how "small" you perceive it to be. And remember how lucky you are to support the Reds - there are many teams that haven't reached a final in half a century.

As the banner should have said: Red wine for my men - we seek Glory at dawn.

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Offline RedPross

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #178 on: May 20, 2012, 07:03:20 PM »
The Cup every single time!!!!! I'm 45 so remember the good times but also remember us being humble respectful of our opponents and celebrating our successes and not the money it earnt.

If we ever win something you have to look st it being possibly the last thing we ever win!!!!! Look at Forest, Leeds, Blackburn etc etc

There are no guarantees in football....... Bad club ownership bad decisions can quickly change things!!!!

So i'd take the Carling Cup or any cup over 4th any time!!!!

Offline Zlen

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #179 on: May 20, 2012, 07:04:22 PM »
Yeah of course:]

Jeez Mr Alan X...I'm not sure I cold have made that post anymore tongue in cheek if I tried.
Read again, we share the sentiment you expressed with that pic.

Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #180 on: May 20, 2012, 07:05:30 PM »
Go back and read the OP.

Question: This season, that's this season, getting fourth place and winning the Carling Cup both get you into the Europa League... Champions League is irrelevant.

So? If we hadn't achieved CL because of Chelsea last night and we had finished 4th whats the problem with that? We don't want to finish as high as possible in league then?

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #181 on: May 20, 2012, 07:05:52 PM »
Jeez Mr Alan X...I'm not sure I cold have made that post anymore tongue in cheek if I tried.
Read again, we share the sentiment you expressed with that pic.

Apologies - been a long day.
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Online arthur sarnoff

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #182 on: May 20, 2012, 07:08:14 PM »
If this question was in relation to Kenny I would like people to remember that the last time Kenny managed us a WIN was 2 points and a DRAW was still 1 point which means that with amount of raws we accumulated this year we could easily have been in CL spot right now and that is how we used to win win. Our worst results used to be draws. In 2012 to be in. CL you have to really win and not play for a draw. I just believe that this coming season Kenny's team would have swapped most of those draws for wins and probably, may be, may be we would be competitive enough to be in the CL spot at the end of the day. My may bes are due to the fact that we would buy a player or two better than what we currently have... Which again I would never bet on because our net was not big enough to catch anything not British. Now we would never know and I wish Kenny could now come out and say we were monitoring player A and player B tfor next season.

Kenny's not that old.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #183 on: May 20, 2012, 07:08:42 PM »
So, if we had finished fourth and we were in the group stages of the EL instead of the 3rd qualifying round and had missed out on CL football on account of Chelsea winning the CL, we would all say: If ONLY we had won the Carling Cup! We would have one more trophy, we would have less money coming in from the PL, and we would have those two extra rounds of qualification for the EL group stages to help us with our preseason training and fine-tuning.

Right?
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Offline Cracking Left Foot

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #184 on: May 20, 2012, 07:15:04 PM »
I am wondering whether our new manager will be told to field weakened teams in the cups now, I mean, they apparently don't count for anything. I really hope not.

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #185 on: May 20, 2012, 07:22:25 PM »
I think it shows the horrible state of modern football, when winning silverware (including the Carling Cup), is seen as less of an achievement than gaining champions league qualification. When I have my, what feels like weekly discussion with mates about this very topic, I use the Arsenal like argument. Take two teams: A and B. Team A has qualified for the CL for the previous ten years, but has not won any silverware. Team B however, has not once qualified for the CL, but has won one Carling Cup in the past ten years. To me, it makes absolute sense that team B is the more successful of the two clubs. When clubs list their honours, they don't list the years in which they have qualified for the CL in addition to their cups.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #186 on: May 20, 2012, 07:25:09 PM »
I am wondering whether our new manager will be told to field weakened teams in the cups now, I mean, they apparently don't count for anything. I really hope not.

I really hope that FSG do not operate with that sort of 'logic'. This has now become worse than politics.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #187 on: May 20, 2012, 07:30:39 PM »
I think it shows the horrible state of modern football, when winning silverware (including the Carling Cup), is seen as less of an achievement than gaining champions league qualification. When I have my, what feels like weekly discussion with mates about this very topic, I use the Arsenal like argument. Take two teams: A and B. Team A has qualified for the CL for the previous ten years, but has not won any silverware. Team B however, has not once qualified for the CL, but has won one Carling Cup in the past ten years. To me, it makes absolute sense that team B is the more successful of the two clubs. When clubs list their honours, they don't list the years in which they have qualified for the CL in addition to their cups.

One singular Carling Cup in ten years makes a team more successful then one who has qualified for the CL every single year for ten years?

The Carling Cup is a minor cup. A couple of years ago, people were describing the EUROPA League as a 'mickey mouse' competition and turning their noses up towards it. Now, the Carling Cup has become a major trophy.

Obviously, winning silverware/trophies is good and important. During Rafa's reign we were concerned about our not having won the LEAGUE for so long. Now, we're supposed to prefer winning the Carling Cup over finishing fourth and missing on the CL on account of Chelsea winning the CL. Even though had we finished fourth we'd be in the group stages of the EL, rather than the 3rd qualifying round, starting our season at the same time as European minnows.


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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #188 on: May 20, 2012, 07:33:37 PM »
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Offline jeremyh94

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #189 on: May 20, 2012, 07:35:12 PM »
I am wondering whether our new manager will be told to field weakened teams in the cups now, I mean, they apparently don't count for anything. I really hope not.

Well I certainly hope a new manager will not be told to field weakened teams in league games

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #190 on: May 20, 2012, 07:36:57 PM »
I like us winning trophies, I would also like to see us play in the Champions League. How about we do both  :)
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Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #191 on: May 20, 2012, 07:53:36 PM »
Well as Steve is the the original RAWK editor I'd say the site's position is pretty clear and consistent:


And I didn't disagree with it. I don't want us to finish 4th simply for CL qualification, but as progression towards becoming a title challenging side again (as we were as recently as 3 years ago). Winning the CC is great. But it's the trophy that any big side not focused on Europe can reasonably expect to win.

The attempt to paint the aim for the top four as money-grabbing and modern 'anti football' is false. It's not the 'Liverpool Way' to glorify the winning of a trophy (on penalties vs championship opposition) that the biggest clubs play their reserves in and a relegated club won last year, while we slip further into upper mid table obscurity. The league is our bread and butter. I take it Shanklyisms still count versus RAWK mod pronouncements?

There is zero evidence that FSG want to finish in the top four in order to extract money from the club. We have their statements that they want to be finishing in the top four to fund investment and challenge for trophies. While there are criticisms of what they have done to date and how they have handled appointments and sackings, i don't believe there is, as yet, grounds to distrust their motives and intention to make us competitive.

The glorification of the CC win to excuse real issues with the performance of the team this season is not in the spirit of the 'Liverpool Way'.
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Online Bjinxi

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #192 on: May 20, 2012, 07:54:28 PM »
I like us winning trophies, I would also like to see us play in the Champions League. How about we do both  :)

Next Season might be one of the most important ones for us. We have to spend wisely and have to make top four. Just imagine Arsenal losing v.P and Spurs Modric and Bale. Massiv chance for us

Offline redmark

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #193 on: May 20, 2012, 07:55:21 PM »
I am wondering whether our new manager will be told to field weakened teams in the cups now, I mean, they apparently don't count for anything. I really hope not.

Nobody, including Ayre and the owners, has said they don't count for anything.
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Offline Shanks1965

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #194 on: May 20, 2012, 07:57:31 PM »
For me 4th place every single time. We don't make the 'rules' but we have to play by them and you only have to look at how the other big teams prioritise Champions League qualification over the League Cup, the Europa Cup and even to some extent the FA Cup to see that. They can't all be wrong.

Besides which if we had finished 4th instead of reaching 2 cup finals and winning one of them we'd still have Kenny in charge.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:00:31 PM by Shanks1965 »
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Offline readybreck

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #195 on: May 20, 2012, 07:58:49 PM »
Really think it was good for us to get back to wembley, almost like getting something nagging out of our system so winning the cup at this time was good for us- but CL qualification now sadly must become a priority for next season or we run the risk of fading further.

Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #196 on: May 20, 2012, 08:00:21 PM »
Not mutually exclusive.  Winning begets more winning.

Offline 12Kings

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #197 on: May 20, 2012, 08:13:17 PM »
Look at it another way, imagine never having anything to celebrate. Nothing, ever.

Isn't that a horrible prospect?

I know what your saying, but pundits were even talking about us being the real deal before the start of the season. We had the resources to play to win in the league this season, we do need to be up there, fighting to win in Europe again, and it draws in the best players. The question laid out in this thread is, 4th or carling cup? Not 4th or silverware. If we'd won the Fa cup also, I think I'd be quite optimistic for next season regardless of us being 8th.

Offline Red Cez

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #198 on: May 20, 2012, 08:13:50 PM »
Well I certainly hope a new manager will not be told to field weakened teams in league games

They won't. People are just trying to one up each other with the scaremongering.
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Online Alan_X

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Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #199 on: May 20, 2012, 08:16:11 PM »
The question laid out in this thread is, 4th or carling cup?

That's correct and the reason for the question is to point out that this year the question is moot.
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