Author Topic: Change and the inevitability of pain  (Read 12391 times)

royhendo

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Change and the inevitability of pain
« on: May 18, 2012, 06:48:10 PM »
Something changed at Liverpool Football Club in recent days, beyond the obvious impact on personnel. Something fundamental. Depending on your context, change can be seen as positive or negative. It's inevitable. Some will experience pain. Some will experience excitement.

We all love the club. And when we love something, and it changes, the pain or excitement we experience is that little bit more intense.

If we see the change as positive, we're naturally excited, and we want others to understand the reasons for our excitement.

If we see the change as negative, we naturally experience pain, and if the despair isn't too overwhelming, we baulk at notions that there's any reason to be excited.

Both responses are natural. We fall back on our faith in times of trouble, after all. Faith in commitment to the club's traditional values, or the other, more recent contender - faith in the existence of a rational 'plan'.

If your support for the club was founded on faith in its traditional values, you're probably deeply unsettled at the moment. On the other hand, if your support is founded on faith in the existence of a rational plan, you're probably quietly elated. If you're unsettled, you're probably incredulous at those expressing their elation. If you're elated, you're probably wishing the sceptics would be quiet.

Each group holds out their version of faith as the truth - that's how faith works. We argue, we debate, we hold up our beliefs as expressions of 'The Liverpool Way'. My way - our way - is right. Yours is wrong. Or, if it suits in rebuttal, "There's no such thing as a Liverpool Way."

It doesn't really matter what label you apply - each core belief is really a form of existential crutch, and there's no real certainty that it's right or wrong - certainly not at this stage. A few exist in a place where they can sit comfortably with this fact, and watch the whole thing unfold without judgement, and without that kind of polarised view. They're lucky. It's easier for them. The rest of us are unbalanced without the reassurance of our crutch.

The club, of course, while nominally a Limited Company (or a mind boggling Venn Diagram of Limited Companies), is really a vague hybrid entity - a subtle balancing of 'stakeholders' - players and staff, lenders, partners and sponsors, owners and investors, and last but not least, supporters. Call it a 'Holy Trinity', or a 'square with four equally important sides', the labels are irrelevant really - what manifests itself as the 'club' is really a complex and subtle product of the way these things interact. The whole thing yaws, pitches and rolls from season to season and decade to decade of course. Old players retire, new players come in. Managers are mutually consented. Legendary fans pass away, with young bucks taking their seats, and somehow, gradually, the club evolves. But tinker with that balance too much - give any of the elements too much of a jolt - and you run the risk of cracking the foundations of the whole thing. You could end up with a whole different club - a whole different balance in the relationship between the various groups.

The first really big 'tweak' in recent years came in 2007, when David Moores decided to sell the club to Tom Hicks and George Gillett. It took a while for everyone to realise the significance of what had happened, mind, but something truly seizmic had taken place, and it ultimately resulted in two of the key groups in the whole balancing act - the lenders and the supporters - intervening to jolt things again - arguably to jolt the whole thing back from the brink - back to life.

But again, that subtly changed the balance of things, to the extent that fans experienced a greater sense of entitlement, and belief in their own empowerment to influence things. The reality, however, is now beginning to dawn on a few people. We believe we have empowerment and influence, but the cold hard irony is that we've been emasculated. We have the illusion of empowerment and enfranchisement. We are no longer acknowledged as needed for our spiritual sustenance - we exist to be cheerleaders, and consumers, and contributors to 'fun' online polls. We exist to be herded from website to website, and TV channel to TV channel, with our collective numbers helping determine just how much revenue the Limited Companies can extract from sponsors. Sponsors who, of course, have now assumed the enfranchisement the fans may have formerly enjoyed.

Those committed to the traditional notion of faith in this context would argue the following: that the club has dispensed with the idea it exists to win trophies, and to nurture its roots in its community, in favour of revenue growth, brand management and meaningless European also-ran status.

Those committed to the rational notion of faith, on the other hand, maintain that the pursuit of these new objectives are the sine qua non of elite competition in modern day football, and that change must happen, or the club will wither and ultimately become meaningless.

Nobody really knows who's right. But whatever happens, what's inevitable is that pain will result, and that the club will be fundamentally different when we emerge from this process of change.

It's arguably illustrative that the first appointment we're expecting to see following our 'night of the long knives' is the role of chief 'herder' - the Director of Communications. That's no disrespect to whoever takes on the role, of course. That it's needed is brutally obvious, particularly to the traditionalists among us.

The club sacks maybe the second most important figure in its history, only for its staff, but two days later, to send out messages on twitter asking followers who they want to see replace him. They then go on to claim that those who objected had misunderstood the context of their messages - that 'they were simply looking for fan views to include on a fun online feature'. All at a time when many fans are desparate for reassurance that they, and their support are being taken seriously. That they're not being taken for granted. It's not that hard to figure out where the club's priorities lie.

For the traditionalists, sporting success is now seen as being a secondary concern for Fenway Sports Group. For the rationalists, that fact is seen as a necessary shift in focus, and that any success we might enjoy in future must be the by-product of commercial returns. That there's no room for sentimentalism or misguided tradition for its own sake.

So either we'll take it on the chin and tacitly consent to the herding, or we'll jack it all in and change the way we relate to the club. Either way, things will be different. The whole thing will become that little bit more plastic. And we'll sing about history and the shortcomings of other fans, but in reality we'll find ourselves becoming more and more like them.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 07:01:21 PM by royhendo »

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 07:22:16 PM »
amen. More later but we really are at a new time. New dawn or new twilight is yet to be seen.
Yep.

Offline No666

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 08:36:30 PM »
For me, there's no more to add: written with your customary equanimity and lightness of touch, Roy; for me, it's bitter to see savelfc and the summer of 2010 come to this but then I'm a sentimental traditionalist.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 08:38:37 PM »
So either we'll take it on the chin and tacitly consent to the herding, or we'll jack it all in and change the way we relate to the club.

Or we'll fight for the way we want it to be - whichever way that is - its been largely the same fight for 20 years plus just different battlegrounds - Kobiyashi maru -

or as the nappy clad one said - be the change you want to see in the world

« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 11:29:21 PM by Vulmea »
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 09:29:25 PM »
I'm not sure how you managed to write such a pacific even handed piece and still get in the little dagger at the end. Skilful.

Offline mrbutch

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2012, 12:12:13 AM »
i'm no fan of tradition or nostalgia but tradition and nostalgia shape me.

Damn them crass yanks, who we the British mimic at the cost of nostalgia and tradition.

And the "Owners" use Tradition as a marketable commodity, whilst stabbing our honoured and trusted King in the back

Truly not sure which way to turn right now

red under the bed

Offline sideshowme

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2012, 12:13:03 AM »
i agree about the two camps in which the supporters find themselves, but i can't avoid the feeling that there is a middle way between misty-eyed traditionalism and cold-hearted rationalism where the club can exist. 

i think every realistic supporter sees which way the wind is blowing, and can accept that football is only going to become more detached from traditional supporters as each season passes.  the events of wednesday were just too much of a paradigm shift though.  absent owners dispensing with the club legend who came close to ending the season with two trophies, even if he did only manage an 8th place finish with the 6th best squad in the league?  there's adapting to new realities, and then there's ripping the beating heart out of something great.  who knows, the transplant may make the club stronger.  but in my view it will never be the same.

great article by the way, and really enjoyed reading the condensed version in dialogue on twitter earlier too.
Dudek saaaaves for Liverpoool!  Liverpool have won the Champions' League!  Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart!

Offline Regi

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2012, 12:15:52 AM »
Great stuff Roy.
Pathetic though it is, sometimes when my frustration reaches breaking point, I think of all the others who I assume must feel the same and it helps calm me down.
Problem shared and all that.
If we as a club could just find some sort of stability where we can gauge our real position in the 'new order' ruled by mega-rich oligarchs and sheikhs, I'd be content for a bit... I'd accept the cards we've been drawn.
But as was often said about City before last weekend, it's the little bit of hope that's the killer
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Offline Bangin Them In

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2012, 12:20:55 AM »
Roy, this is spot on.

The club is now an empty vacuous place like a museum.

There is no character, spirit or vitality out of it at all, it simply exists to generate cash.

I shall probably end up interacting with it rather like I react with any business, insist on results for my cash, end of story.
A win for the Liverpool country

Offline Rusty

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2012, 12:21:43 AM »
Lovely OP and hit the nail right on the head.

He's made Kaizer wet himself with excitement then cry when he realises all in one post. Ban him? Knight him in the new year's honours!

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2012, 01:31:11 AM »
Why does everything have to be so black and white? Traditionalists v Rationalists. Why isn't there any room for grey anymore?

Looking for divides is unnecessarily pugnacious. As a fanbase we've become so judgemental and hysterical. I miss the time when all we the fans just argued about tactics and players and not political ideologies for the club.

Offline Z e u s

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2012, 01:38:33 AM »
For the traditionalists, sporting success is now seen as being a secondary concern for Fenway Sports Group.

Not sure how you have come to that conclusion. 

They have always said they want to win, they have sacked Dalglish (and previously Hodgson) because they weren't being successful.

They want success and if they get that they'll get maximum rewards, as financially they'll benefit most if we are at the top.

Winning is their main goal, they have always said that and I don't think we have seen anything to suggest otherwise.  They have been ruthless to try and make that happen.

Offline richmond-red

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2012, 01:39:37 AM »
Well said Roy. I have little doubt which camp I'm in. I feel like I'm hearing a nasty footballing version of the Don Mclean classic - Wednesday was "the day the football died". Well at least it was for me.

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 01:43:01 AM »
There has been some brilliant posts on RAWK in the last week.

But reading them makes you think that we have now lost something from the very heart of this amazing club, that we will may never get back it's now a money making machine and not about what honors you may win and the traditions of the club.

And the only thing that matter about those two things is how you can make money from them.   
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Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2012, 01:51:11 AM »
Fantastic post roy. Well done  :wellin

There has been an absence of middle ground so far, and it's nice to see a respected poster helping to bridge that gap!

I have to say though... skepticism is one thing, but blatant fear mongering alarmism is another. I've been extremely saddened by some posters insistence that all signs point to financial ruin, or that "the americans" want nothing more than us to survive so they can get a big pay day in the future. No signs point to this whatsoever, and it just inflames the situation in my mind, and I don't think should should be accepted. Even if there is a possibility of some truth in that (which I just cannot fathom), coming out and stating it as a fact is dangerous, and causing real problems imho.

Edit:

For the traditionalists, sporting success is now seen as being a secondary concern for Fenway Sports Group. For the rationalists, that fact is seen as a necessary shift in focus

Actually I take issue with stating this as a fact. All the signs I have seen point to them not accepting losing the most games we have in eons, being the 17th worst team in 2012, and not showing any signs of fixing it. How that can be interpreted as "sporting success being a secondary concern" is beyond me?!?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 01:54:48 AM by kcbworth »

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2012, 01:57:16 AM »
As Darwin said: “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

Football has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.  Perhaps as a club we were holding onto older values and a way of operating that was out of date and unlikely to result in long term success.  We probably resisted change more than most top clubs.

I'm still gutted about recent affairs but I'm trying to be positive about the future.  Perhaps we have three options - give up (I'm done with football),  keep fighting (down with the owners)  or embrace change and help the club to compete in the new era.
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2012, 02:07:56 AM »
As Darwin said: “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

Football has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.  Perhaps as a club we were holding onto older values and a way of operating that was out of date and unlikely to result in long term success.  We probably resisted change more than most top clubs.

I'm still gutted about recent affairs but I'm trying to be positive about the future.  Perhaps we have three options - give up (I'm done with football),  keep fighting (down with the owners)  or embrace change and help the club to compete in the new era.

Or a 4th way the club may change.

But the fans think fuck that and keep the same traditions in the ground and outside, however the club tries to change them.

We are the real heart of the club and it's up to us to make sure some things do not change if we have control of these things.
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Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

Offline shelovesyou

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2012, 02:08:22 AM »
What a fantastic post.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head.

the easiest way for me to grow as a person is to surround myself with people smarter than I am

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2012, 02:17:18 AM »
Change may have symbolically taken place 2 or 3 days ago.

To me though, change took place back in 20 February 1992.

You know, with the Simple Minds song playing 'Alive and Kicking' on Sky. Turns out we had a new league called the Premier League, with a new trophy.

Our club under Moores hesitated, and never the twain met.

Offline The Ghost of Titi Camara

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2012, 02:22:02 AM »
Why does everything have to be so black and white? Traditionalists v Rationalists. Why isn't there any room for grey anymore?

Looking for divides is unnecessarily pugnacious. As a fanbase we've become so judgemental and hysterical. I miss the time when all we the fans just argued about tactics and players and not political ideologies for the club.

The fact we're arguing now over the ideology of the club is an indication of the scale of our current malaise. We're Liverpool Football Club. We should know precisely what our ideology is, we've always known before and that ideology -  Scouse socialism (with all its modern and traditional strands)  - is how many of us relate to the club as an abstract entity. It's a given. It needs no defence. We shouldn't have to remind anyone of its significance or its supremacy. That we now have to muster a defence is the necessary jolt for many among us to remember this is no longer our club. One of the most prominent words used over the last few days in relation to this saga has been owners. That's not us, by the way.

We are under the equivalent of colonial occupation. There are those from among us who will form a comprador elite (Ayre now, Purslow in the past) to benefit from our colonial masters through status, rank and cash. There will be many more who don't care, don't act and buy into the propaganda of our new masters sufficiently to never even see the power relationship this way. There will be others among us who have nothing to gain, but will still defend our new masters because they're philosophically convinced. There will be others who are installed as officers and overseers as direct tentacles of our new masters (Jen Chang, then possibly a lapdog manager). The most depressing part of this new reality is that we're ultimately in the Sierra Leone position until we have enough capital to steer our own ship collectively. That is, we recognise our own emasculation and put ourselves at the mercy of a foreign power here to suck the life out of us just because the only current alternative is economic oblivion. In the long-term, however, there can be no viable solution other than the freedom to make our own mistakes consistent with our own principles. Without the will or recourse to agency, we actually don't exist.

We are a market for our colonial masters to foist goods on while they ensure that this market is monopolised by their interests, products and partnerships (Warrior, LeBron, Fox). While they make our decisions, shape our future, sell us their products, we are their divided, disenfranchised, giddy piccaninnies watching their shadows creeping in the courtyard of the palace above us, wondering what they have planned for us next, our hopes staked on their benevolence.
I do remember being sat in Off The Pitch four years ago being told I was doom-mongering about Hicks and Gillett. It's made me cautious: some of you sound positively Candide-esque in your refusal to keep a watching brief.

Offline hedger

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2012, 02:23:01 AM »
A big change has happened, in fact the biggest change i have ever witnessed at Liverpool where it is now acceptable to win nothing as long as 4th place is guaranteed.  We must fight this tooth and nail

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2012, 02:25:12 AM »
I can recall Roy being against fan ownership. Well we have capitalist owners, enjoy the plastic flags.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Kicked_Into_Touch

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2012, 02:28:23 AM »
i think that some who are sharpening their pitchforks and dusting off protest signs may look back on these days in 5 or so years and reflect on the way they responded to events and be embarrassed somewhat....

of course, those who are calmly looking to the future with trusting eyes may have the same reaction in time....

but this is the beginning, one way or another - why can't we have a bit of hope??

i've been saying since everything's kicked off that they just might have a plan, these guys. no, i cannot say with absolute certainty (nobody can, for or against), but i HOPE they do, and i haven't exactly seen anything from them that suggests that they don't. they have clearly made mistakes, but they were bound to from the beginning - JWH never hid the fact that they knew nothing of managing a football club in europe, and how big the learning curve was for them.

why are we so willing to abide by the mistakes of players and managers, but not these blokes (whose work i'd wager is far more complicated)? is it because they're yanks (for some i'm dead certain it is)? or because the last guys were yanks? moores spent decades making mistakes managing this club, and while the internet wasn't nearly as finely honed a weapon of disgruntled masses as it is now, i'd be surprised if he'd be getting this level of grief if he were still around bungling along....

roy's right - its not the good old days anymore. but then it hasn't been since the early 90s. and just because things are changing doesn't mean that we have to discard history or traditions. we go on about liverpool existing to win trophies, but bristle at the idea that the people in charge take hard measures to best equip us to....win trophies. people deride the influence of the champions league and its money, and while a greedy owner wants it for his pocketbook, a smart, driven one would want it to better help the club compete - why can't we see if these guys are the latter, rather than assume they are the former??

and people go on, making parallels about H+G, but we aren't on the rack financially, and aren't even approaching it as far as i'm aware, so we can afford to give FSG the leeway to do something that we frankly couldnt with H+G and the bankers hung off their backs....

this has been a bit of a ramble, and i can understand people being raw with what's gone on, but lets have a bit of hope - we could be looking back on today in five years from a fantastic position, with the club competing for and winning everything out there, a manager who truly loves the club, players who would die for the shirt, and fans who's walk all over the world to watch......

Offline shelovesyou

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2012, 02:29:30 AM »
Change may have symbolically taken place 2 or 3 days ago.

To me though, change took place back in 20 February 1992.

You know, with the Simple Minds song playing 'Alive and Kicking' on Sky. Turns out we had a new league called the Premier League, with a new trophy.

Our club under Moores hesitated, and never the twain met.

Sadly, our club was heavily involved with the creation of the Premier League.
We got too big for our boots.
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 02:32:39 AM »
An erudite summary there and one that inspires me to flesh out a muse I've been mulling over for the last couple of days.

Seemingly:

" No [one] man is bigger than the club..."

Well my thumb [alone] is big and powerful enough to change a T.V channel and eliminate 'the club' from having any kind of audience in my own private space.

Quote
If a tree falls in a forest but nobody is there to hear it, does it make a noise?

If a club is 'big' but it ceases to receive homage in your own personal household, is it still a 'big' club?

Thereafter, should the club only be viewed as 'big' out of social prudence whenever one is in the company of the die-hard L.F.C supporter who also maintains the illusion that his wife is beautiful and that his children are talented.

Only men [supporters] who are bigger than the club need wrestle with these dilemmas.

Those who actually believe that " no one man is bigger than club..." will likely include themselves in the appraisal....and that's the part of this fallacy I find disturbing.

NOTHING is that big that it cannot be given the middle-finger if it ceases to resonate with your own personal values.

YNWA

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2012, 02:34:52 AM »
Beautifully written big man  :wellin

I'm not ashamed to say that a little piece of my heart has been torn out these last couple of days. But just like the battered wife who returns to the abusive husband much to the chagrin and warninga of family members, I'll still probably be back for more. Rationalisation only gets in the way of blind love so it's easier to discard it. Over the last few years though, more and more I don't think anything could sum up my feelings better than this song (no apologies for the cheesy use of Janis Joplin). But I've decided that there is only so many pieces they can take before there's nothing left. Is this the last one? I honestly don't know yet, but as soon as I'm certain it's not, I'll fight like fuck to keep it.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/hsJPDYWOMdg" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/hsJPDYWOMdg</a>
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 02:48:45 AM by macca888 »
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2012, 02:36:04 AM »
An erudite summary there and one that inspires me to flesh out a muse I've been mulling over for the last couple of days.

Seemingly:

" No [one] man is bigger than the club..."

Well my thumb [alone] is big and powerful enough to change a T.V channel and eliminate 'the club' from having any kind of audience in my own private space.

If a club is 'big' but it ceases to receive homage in your own personal household, is it still a 'big' club?

Thereafter, should the club only be viewed as 'big' out of social prudence whenever one is in the company of the die-hard L.F.C supporter who also maintains the illusion that his wife is beautiful and that his children are talented.

Only men [supporters] who are bigger than the club need wrestle with these dilemmas.

Those who actually believe that " no one man is bigger than club..." will likely include themselves in the appraisal....and that's the part of this fallacy I find disturbing.

NOTHING is that big that it cannot be given the middle-finger if it ceases to resonate with your own personal values.



MMmm I dont know but I do know that noise is perceptive.
Hope that helps.
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Offline Rormac

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2012, 02:46:01 AM »
we could be looking back on today in five years from a fantastic position, with the club competing for and winning everything out there, a manager who truly loves the club, players who would die for the shirt, and fans who's walk all over the world to watch......

wonderful words.  But these uncharted baseball waters are difficult to fathom.

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2012, 02:53:21 AM »
MMmm I dont know but I do know that noise is perceptive.
Hope that helps.

If I had merely logged out and gone to bed....never again to return to this thread, then no it wouldn't have helped. So it helps only in the context of my senses still being willing to meet that which is on offer half-way by means of 'lingering.'

Which cements the broader point rather admirably I feel.
YNWA

Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2012, 02:54:38 AM »
As the saying goes time waits for no man? guess same could be applied to the club, football will not wait around for Liverpool to build on old values, which sadly means nothing in this day and age. Either we move the times or stand still and complain about how much football has change.
Liverpool manager Rafael Benítez admitted after the match that the manner of his side's victory had stunned him and he stated: "My problem is that I don't have words to express the things that I feel at this moment"

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 03:02:08 AM »
The train is leaving with or without us

Offline Zeb

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 03:02:16 AM »
I'm not sure how you managed to write such a pacific even handed piece and still get in the little dagger at the end. Skilful.

Mac the Knife?

Don't think there can really be too many shades of grey here, can there?

We've got the embodiment of the financial principle being expounded over there at Arsenal. Long discussions about the stadium frequently end back to that point - is there room for a period of relative mediocrity where the club's ambitions to win things slides before the financial imperatives of trying to compete with clubs who, when presented with FFP regulations, will argue that this year they lost £99m whereas last year they lost £100m and so fulfill the criteria required?

Maybe Kenny's time in charge was the last stand in a war against the commercialisation of football which has been fought at the club over the past forty years. Some of us will look back and remember it with pride. Others, of a different viewpoint, will look at it and deride it as a huge mistake. Seems like the future course of the club is now plotted. Brave New World and all that.
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Offline Garcepticon

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2012, 03:07:09 AM »
Or we'll fight for the way we want it to be - whichever way that is - its been largely the same fight for 20 years plus just different battlegrounds - Kobiyashi maru -

or as the nappy clad one said - be the change you want to see in the world

I'd love to think that is possible, but as Roy said, we've been emasculated. We may need to withdraw all support and funding from the club to counter-act such a movement towards financial sustenance, as opposed to a 'Liverpool exists to win trophies' mentality.

Personally, I look at Arsenal existing in such a boring repetitive nature and I lose interest in football. Wigan, as another example, aim every year to stay in the PL, for the honour? No, for the money.

I write about Politics in my degree, and an academic notes how the electorate has become less 'subordinate to elites' and unlikely to follow the whims of political parties (see the drastic fall in party membership). Numerous factors influence this, education levels etc, but one reason is the changed nature of political parties, with regards to their inclination to seek election over representation - for example, Lib Dems introduce top-up fees to enable power sharing with the Conservatives at the expense of their supporters. Or the Labour party dropping its traditional values (Clause IV) as they will not sit well with the majority of voters. In some ways I think you can see a parallel between this and our football club.

The Football club is moving towards maximising its support, it is looking to create a 'one size fits all' policy which fits as many fans as possible so that they can maximise revenue. This was true before, at least to some extent. But now I feel like the sacking of Kenny represents a clean break from the old LFC way of doing things - focusing on what the fans wanted, i.e., winning trophies, at the expense of making a business profitable.

Why bother supporting a football club if it has few roots in the local community and little inclination to put anything aside from profit at the forefront of its thinking? It is depressing, and whilst I can still follow the football club, it won't be the same.

Offline actwithoutwords

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2012, 03:09:05 AM »
Well written as that is, I really think people are overreacting to what happened this week. Obviously we all have our problems with the way football has changed, but it would be a mistake to project our own fears and agendas into every little thing that happens. This week a manager was sacked who was significantly underperforming and who had shown no signs that he was capable of arresting the drift towards mediocrity. Maybe he deserved more time, maybe more time would have just made things worse. It'sa huge moment for FSG, but it's not an epochal moment in the history of the club. Moores selling to G&H was.

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2012, 03:10:57 AM »
I admit it lads I am grieving. 

But does that mean I want FSG to fail?

No

Offline Kicked_Into_Touch

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2012, 03:29:06 AM »
wonderful words.  But these uncharted baseball waters are difficult to fathom.

aye, but just because you can't see past the fog doesnt meant you're destined to hit rocky shoals....a leap of faith in every way

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2012, 03:32:31 AM »
Well said Roy. I have little doubt which camp I'm in. I feel like I'm hearing a nasty footballing version of the Don Mclean classic - Wednesday was "the day the football died". Well at least it was for me.

Uncanny, exactly the same song's been going through my head since then too, for the same reasons.  It feels like something very important's been taken out. Someone posted In My Life on one thread last night, and that got me.
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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2012, 03:36:09 AM »
What many seem to forget is that although this club is in changing, it's changing for the good. We very well may not agree with the latest changes made but FSG are doing it in their best interests. They're here to make us the greatest club once again and it can't be done without financial backing, so yes, they're going to milk as much money out of every stakeholder they can.

FSG are here to make money, let's make no mistake about it, but the way they've conducted themselves (with the Red Sox) tells you how different they are from the former cowboys. For them to make any profit, they first need to make us a success on the field (with all short term profits being reinvested in the club) which will eventually translate off the field and make us self-sufficient.

Look at our new plan or structure and the names being linked: Pep, Txiki, Cruyff, Van Gaal, Landrup. Of course there are the less glamoruous candidates like Martinez and Rodgers, but the key here is the personnel that they envision.  I'm worried no doubt with the sacking of Kenny, but we must realise that we have one common vision along with FSG: Success.
Keep it simple.

Offline keyo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2012, 03:38:37 AM »
It is interesting when you consider change and all it brings in terms of practical change, physical and emotional impacts. We all accept change to different degrees and in different ways. We also all have different views and attitudes with regard to approaching change, and we have views on other people's reactions. It is this that causes debate/argument. The most common debate with change is that it is inevitable and needs to be embraced whilst others rail against it and ask why is it inevitable and why should it be embraced?

The reality is change is always occurring and "embracing change" becomes changing practical outputs and viewpoints, whereas those who don't "embrace" tend adapt their routines without making root and branch change.

Go back to 2007, and there was an inevitbility around moores selling and everyone accepted it for their own reasons...."the club needs to move into the 21st century" or "moores is useless he needs to go" and lots in between

In the time since moores sold, what has changed at the club? Do we have better infrastructure? Have processes at the club improved? Have the assets of the club been invested in by externally sourced investment? Has there been improvements in the management at anfield, melwood and Kirkby that have resulted from the implementation of plans of new owners? Has the ethos or attitude of those at the club improved? And has the investment in the playing staff been of a substantial level that was out of reach of the ownership per sellout?

Ultimately most people wanted change for one reason or another. Was overseas investment the only option? And if not was it the best option? With hindsight are we better placed now than in 2007? Have we learned anything from racing to greet our "saviours" with open arms without thought for traditions and values. Or was it a necessary root and branch change to move forward, improve our revenues, remain competitive.

And have our traditions and values been lost? Or are they being hidden amongst the malaise needing implementation of fsg plans for reigniting? And without engagement can it be reignited, no matter how good fsg's plan is can it be implemented by absentee owners? Do we care if they are absent? Do we want them to be uninvolved and merely there to bankroll success and get the best people in place? Is that even possible when you are not sheikh mansour?

Change....inevitable, yes, but that does not mean we have to forget or leave behind the values that make us what we are.
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Offline keyo

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Re: Change and the inevitability of pain
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2012, 03:46:10 AM »
Look at our new plan or structure and the names being linked: Pep, Txiki, Cruyff, Van Gaal, Landrup. Of course there are the less glamoruous candidates like Martinez and Rodgers, but the key here is the personnel that they envision.  I'm worried no doubt with the sacking of Kenny, but we must realise that we have one common vision along with FSG: Success.
Agree we need to hang tight before making judgements. And their record with the red sox gives them some credit in the bank. I would caution about judging them on the names linked as there is no credible source that they have either been considered or contacted or that they would be interested. A plan is a plan, and if it is Martinez and works great, so am not judging on that either. I would say they have made us look small time by dealing with Wigan and Swansea the way they have.  These things should be in confidence for all concerned and that appears to not be on the agenda at all with both wigan and Swansea going straight to the press.
Joey's ate the frogs legs, made the swiss roll, now he's munchin' gladbach!!