Author Topic: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool  (Read 27935 times)

Offline myrlas

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #120 on: April 3, 2012, 01:03:35 pm »
The ignorance of Coates now is turning into a farce. If I remember correctly, he was our best player last time he played. He needs gelling in( oh why bother, everyone agrees on this anyway).
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #121 on: April 3, 2012, 01:09:12 pm »
Gah. It was horrible wasn't it?

Brilliant!  Can't disagree with anything.  I haven't been on here long and this may be the best post I have read!
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #122 on: April 3, 2012, 01:11:56 pm »
I posted this in the 'Fundamental Problem' thread; what it shows is that we've rarely played 442 in 2012 and that our tinkering with other systems has seen us get worse and worse (results wise, at least). That doesn't alter your basic point, which I more or less agree with, but does alter the detail. We should not put the faults of the season down to a 'rigid 442', because a) we've not played the rigid 442 very often recently and b) we had better results when we did.

...

http://www.football-lineups.com/team/Liverpool/FA_Premier_League_2011-2012/Fixture/

Some interesting information here. As ever with formations, different people will call a given formation slightly different things, but the site at least appears to be consistent in it's usage (Suarez-Carroll as a 442 rather than what I'd call a 4411; 4141 used rather than what many refer to as 433, etc).

On their analysis:

442 - 16 times (W7, D5, L4)
4141 - 8 times (W1, D2, L5)
4231 - 3 times (W2, D1, L0)
4411, 4321, 3421 - once each (W, L, D respectively)

What stands out graphically (without necessarily being a straightforward cause and effect) is that 4141 (>433) has been used most frequently in 2012; with one win and 5 defeats in 6 games. In 2011, 442 was used in 13 out of 19 games with a record of 6-5-2. We've won 4 league games out of 14 playing any system other than a 442. From the end of August through to late November, we played 442 in nine out of ten games. Since then, we've not played the same system 3 games running, and only twice played the same system 2 games running.

442 - 1.625 pts per game
Not 442 - 1.143 pts per game

Apart from anything else, it ties in with the stats that suggest starting with Carroll, even if he doesn't score, is producing better results. Of course the other aspect of that is that Suarez is not playing as a lone striker.

The site includes shots, shots on target and possession stats by game too.

I think the big question is why are we changing formations so much?  It clearly is having an adverse affect on the form of the team.

Offline kkjellquist

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #123 on: April 3, 2012, 01:13:46 pm »
Regarding Suarez, anyone else notice how he's laughing at bad calls now instead of arguing/pleading.  I think it's a sign he's done with this season and the crap he has to work with.  I don't blame him one bit. 
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #124 on: April 3, 2012, 01:14:18 pm »
Peronnell for me, we had a number of leader on the pitch against arsenal that day. Lucas, agger, pepe, dirk and luis. Two of the biggest leaders in this team from last year are out with an injury and for me lucas was the onfield captain of this team last year and his leadership qualities are missed.
We also had Flannagan, Spearing and Robinson on the pitch that day, youngsters.

Look at Skrtel, he's fucking running towards Lucas with absolute passion on his face, he's running fucking 90 yards the nutter.

You just don't see that at the moment in the players.
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Offline 1021

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #125 on: April 3, 2012, 01:16:25 pm »
Thanks for all the kind words, bit of a late night rant from me.

On the Dalglish point 'quite simply isn't the problem' I should have put 'quite simple isn't the problem'.

As you see throughout the post I've listed where I feel he has gone wrong, I have listed where he has gone wrong both in the tactical and the personnel department, and I have accused him of of going into games without a game plan. I do call him into question on a number of occasions over a number of issues.

But for me it's a feeling, I was sat in the Upper Kemlyn for the Wigan match and I looked out a side that were in pre-season mode with the exception of Luis Suarez, I saw no leadership on the field of play, I saw no bottle and I saw no effort. Same against Newcastle, players just going through the motions. Kenny's out there barking orders, gesturing, asking them for more, and they're not arsed.

I remember seeing a few weeks ago in the Pictures 11/12 thread a HD image of Kenny and good grief he looks drained. People were joking that nothing had changed about Kenny from his resignation interview to his reappointment presentation, even the hair. Well that's all changed now, and it's heartbreaking to see.

He's been let down this season by his players, the Luis Suarez case (where he was in the right) has taken a load out of him and he's ended up having to apologise for his conduct to Sky! The Club has let him down. Now supporters are. Yes, he's made mistakes, but he deserves another season, the players haven't put any effort in, and for that reason a good few of them should be shown the door.

As I said it's just a feeling, and I see a dozen issues that need rooting out before Kenny should be usurped.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #126 on: April 3, 2012, 01:20:27 pm »



A great post, just a few points to add though.

1. I think that early form under KD can be explained away as 'New manager honeymoon' when some players up their game to impress the new guy. That, and anything following the Roy era would seem like a blessed relief. I think what we have seen this year is a much more erratic and poorly integrated side. Unsurprising, but there are a few worrying trends in terms of gameplay and player quality. I just don't think, having seen the players and play this season that what we saw at the beginnig of his time in charge is where KD actually wants to go.

2. Your points about the old guard finally failing are well made (Gerrard is doing that thing where he phones it in and saves his legs for big matches and England finals). I would add that Kuyt has also deteriorated badly this season and Reina has also looked a lot less spry. Problem is the players brought in to make the transition to the new era from the old have failed to step up, forcing KD to rely on clapped out old fogeys.

3. Your defense of KD I feel is weak, suggesting its the players not performing rather than the manager. The problem I see it is that he brought in too much dross and its failed to perform. that is only part of the problem though, every manager can make an error of judgement (Carroll arrived in a very over-wrought, tense environment, I think that was a mistake made through urgency).

The bigger problem for me is the direction KD is taking the team. When Roy Evans was replaced by Houllier that signaled the end of the old era and the embracing of the new. While Houllier has his critics, the one thing he will always be credited with is starting the club down the road to a more professional era as the old ideas of boot room etc. were abandoned in favour of a more modern outlook. Benitez came in and took that process to a new level; super fit players, modern training methods, computer analysis, a focus on data gathering etc.

The main issue with Hodgson I always had was that he represented a move away from the the direction that Houllier and Benitez had taken the club, he seemed like a step backwards to an era that was no longer relevant, big, strong, clueless, 'domestic' players in rigid 442 formation, battering down backlines and being taken apart by sophisticated intelligent players, players that are now the lifeblood of the top end of the premiership.

When KD was brought in he was hailed as a offering a direct link to the past, the man who would unify the club and heal the wounds inflicted by the old American owners. At the time I felt he represented a risk; yes he could gel the club, but what past would he link to? Would he continue the work of Houllier and Benitez, or would he directly bypass that to the pre-modern era? What we have seen then is a bizarre hybrid of the two, with sabermetric or whateveryoumacallit being used to bring in players while Dalglish seems to place a premium on British, experienced throwbacks to the long-ball, widemen, 442, little-and-large era.

Newcastle was just one more example of this, players like Skrtel, Carragher, Bellamy and Carroll, ideal for a 442 juxtaposed to players like Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard and Spearing, more suited to a flowing, mobile, pass and move style. To my eyes the current side is some sort of horrible chimera composed of two opposing strategies, each competing to see which can be the victor for the future of the club. the problem as I see it is that KD seems to be trying to develop an old fashioned, direct 442 using ill-fitting parts from a flowing, mobile, 4231. Even if he succeeds in creating his footballing vision, I'm not sure that's where the club needs to go, whether the style of football he is trying to impose is even that relevant anymore. My concern is that in the summer KD will attempt to cut the Gordian knot by offloading the likes of Maxi, Kuyt, Agger, possibly even Suarez and bringing in more players like Downing etc. Yes, results might improve, but I can't see the team achieving much more than 5-7th with that template. it just seems too far away from where the modern game has gone.
« Last Edit: April 3, 2012, 01:24:15 pm by DonkeyWan »
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Offline subroc

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #127 on: April 3, 2012, 01:20:53 pm »
Thanks for all the kind words, bit of a late night rant from me.

On the Dalglish point 'quite simply isn't the problem' I should have put 'quite simple isn't the problem'.

As you see throughout the post I've listed where I feel he has gone wrong, I have listed where he has gone wrong both in the tactical and the personnel department, and I have accused him of of going into games without a game plan. I do call him into question on a number of occasions over a number of issues.

But for me it's a feeling, I was sat in the Upper Kemlyn for the Wigan match and I looked out a side that were in pre-season mode with the exception of Luis Suarez, I saw no leadership on the field of play, I saw no bottle and I saw no effort. Same against Newcastle, players just going through the motions. Kenny's out there barking orders, gesturing, asking them for more, and they're not arsed.

I remember seeing a few weeks ago in the Pictures 11/12 thread a HD image of Kenny and good grief he looks drained. People were joking that nothing had changed about Kenny from his resignation interview to his reappointment presentation, even the hair. Well that's all changed now, and it's heartbreaking to see.

He's been let down this season by his players, the Luis Suarez case (where he was in the right) has taken a load out of him and he's ended up having to apologise for his conduct to Sky! The Club has let him down. Now supporters are. Yes, he's made mistakes, but he deserves another season, the players haven't put any effort in, and for that reason a good few of them should be shown the door.

As I said it's just a feeling, and I see a dozen issues that need rooting out before Kenny should be usurped.

All that is subject to Dalglish having the vision and game plan and the ruthlessness to turn it around. The worry here is that he does not seem to be addressing all the things you set out. If he is realising it, shouldn't we have seen it at work - at least attempted to be worked - on the pitch long before this? After all, he should not wait til next season to fix problems which are clear already now.

As The Times article suggests, the owners see it that way too because they are described as requiring a written plan from him to explain how he is going to do things better next season. 

Offline redmark

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #128 on: April 3, 2012, 01:22:42 pm »
I think the big question is why are we changing formations so much?  It clearly is having an adverse affect on the form of the team.

My guess is that Dalglish wasn't satisfied with our form over the first half of the season; that we had to tinker a bit anyway with the loss of Lucas and then Suarez for a while. While we'd kill for the 'poor' form we had in the first half of the season now, it wasn't really good enough at the time. It's also arguable that we've had better performances in some of our 'tweaked' systems - for instance, the Arsenal game - but not results. What we're seeing now, clearly, is partly psychological rather than simply about the system, and further complicated by the replacement of Agger with Carragher (with a deeper defence and the apparent degeneration in Skrtel's game).

Fundamentally I don't think there's any getting away from the idea that Carroll was a mistake and we won't be able to establish something more sustainable (whether it's 4231, 4411, 4141, 433, etc) until the management recognises that and signs a quicker, goalscoring number 9. We might even see more from players like Downing and Henderson with more mobility and threat upfront.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #129 on: April 3, 2012, 01:28:28 pm »
I think the big question is why are we changing formations so much?  It clearly is having an adverse affect on the form of the team.

not sure elsewhere people are moaning about Kenny not changing things at all.

 I will get shot down for this, Stevie has returned for me as not the player he was yes he can do the one game Everton display but can he be what he was every game, the last few games tell me he cannot, the problem is he also has not enough discipline to be a CM. So he has to play up front with Suarez or rested because I dont believe he is fully fit either !

 Henderson would be better alongside Jay and Shelvey on the right for now, it is at least worth a try.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #130 on: April 3, 2012, 01:42:26 pm »
I think the big question is why are we changing formations so much?  It clearly is having an adverse affect on the form of the team.

Spot on, worst still we are altering the team even after a win at times, the side is crying out for some stability and cohesion.

We are now in April after 31 games with the league season effectively over, yet we still have no clue as to what out best team is, how can you expect consistency in form if there is no consistency in the way we are trying to play.

Barring injuries and suspensions the spine of the team should be a constant, this was hugeley reminiscent of Rafa's team in the 08/09 season, we are just trying to satisfy the bulging ego's of too many 'stars'; by playing them regardless of form, which ultimately is causing Kenny to constantly restructure the team.

Comparing the two teams on sunday was like chalk and cheese (I cant believe im saying this after the differing summer transfers we both had), Newcastle knew how they wanted to play and what they had to do to make it work, they utilised there main threats by deploying a system that pretty much made us look absolutely woeful; both in attack and defence.

The real character of certain players also come to the fore, if they can't handle the atmosphere and scrutiny at places like St James Park (or What ever they are calling it now) heaven forbid what they will be like in some of Europe's 'hot beds', so to speak.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #131 on: April 3, 2012, 01:46:53 pm »
He's been let down this season by his players, the Luis Suarez case (where he was in the right) has taken a load out of him and he's ended up having to apologise for his conduct to Sky! The Club has let him down. Now supporters are. Yes, he's made mistakes, but he deserves another season, the players haven't put any effort in, and for that reason a good few of them should be shown the door.

Mate, good post again. Regarding the above, it must be a tough time for Kenny. Whilst he's obviously made mistakes and should be scrutinised just like anybody else, the issues regarding the Suarez/Evra case, how it played out and all the criticism he got for defending Suarez and how we apologised after the game at Old Trafford have just added up to something that Kenny didn't need to deal with. And now some fans are on his back. I'm not sure what will happen in the summer but our manager deserves our full respect.
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Offline Rohit

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #132 on: April 3, 2012, 01:52:32 pm »
We also had Flannagan, Spearing and Robinson on the pitch that day, youngsters.

Look at Skrtel, he's fucking running towards Lucas with absolute passion on his face, he's running fucking 90 yards the nutter.

You just don't see that at the moment in the players.

That team was playing with confidence and it was well drilled, this one has as much confidence as stewart downing has premier league goals for us.

Offline didi shamone

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #133 on: April 3, 2012, 01:52:53 pm »
Regarding Suarez, anyone else notice how he's laughing at bad calls now instead of arguing/pleading.  I think it's a sign he's done with this season and the crap he has to work with.  I don't blame him one bit.


I was thinking about this too. I hope he's just had it with this season and not the club or even the country. He looks bemused at the lack of fight or guile around him.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #134 on: April 3, 2012, 01:54:56 pm »
I fear for Kenny this summer. FSG have kept their counsel until now, which often indicates a pretty ruthless organisation. And there are some question marks over Kenny which may be hard to answer. His signings are a damning indictment - you either sign good players, or you make the best of your signings. Kenny has done neither.

Downing was a terrible signing - he's got a streak of yellow running through him so strong the sun seems to be shining wherever he runs. He's a disgrace.

Adam is what he is, an OK midfielder at about the £8m mark. He played quite well when Lucas was there to mop up for him, but he's out of his depth against the top teams.

Henderson, to me, is a mystery... he may blossom, but I suspect, like Downing, he doesn't have the mentality to play for this club. Good feet, good engine, but no willingness to take on responsibility, or bust a gut to break through into a danger area, or even compete for a 50/50. So many times this season he's stood there, flat on his heels, as a simple pass rolls past him...

Carroll, I actually feel some sympathy for. Clearly, he isn't top drawer. But it's not good management to sign a young striker for a big fee, then decline to play to his strengths. Even on Sunday, substituting him in front of the Geordies may have been understandable given his performance, but not when the whole team have played shit. This only undermines his confidence even more, and unfairly. He's not as ineffectual as he's being made to look, which is worrying.

If FSG have doubts about Kenny, how much will they back him in the summer? I think he's stuck - they'll either sack him, ask him to walk, or they'll decline to give him the big money he probably needs this summer, and he'll have one more season to try to get the best out of a very average squad. He's in a bind. If we win the FA Cup I can see him walking.


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Offline 1021

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #135 on: April 3, 2012, 01:58:33 pm »
All that is subject to Dalglish having the vision and game plan and the ruthlessness to turn it around. The worry here is that he does not seem to be addressing all the things you set out. If he is realising it, shouldn't we have seen it at work - at least attempted to be worked - on the pitch long before this? After all, he should not wait til next season to fix problems which are clear already now.

As The Times article suggests, the owners see it that way too because they are described as requiring a written plan from him to explain how he is going to do things better next season. 

Agreed, I said after the semi-final and Agger's injury that we had to use these remaining months (because we were not going to get forth place) to give Coates experience and Shelvey (before Adam's injury) because we may as well have young lads making mistakes on the pitch and learning from them, than have Carragher and Adam doing the same thing they've done all season, which hadn't been good enough.

I don't know why Kenny didn't do it. All the signs from last season with his faith in Robinson and Flanagan suggested he would but we haven't seen it this term, and with much more adept and experienced footballers that the pair from the academy.

All logic tells us that Carragher shouldn't be getting minutes, so why is he?
Has Kenny got a blind spot when it comes to our number 23? Or does the status of Carragher dictate he plays?
Frankly I'm not sure what is more worrying.


A great post, just a few points to add though.

1. I think that early form under KD can be explained away as 'New manager honeymoon' when some players up their game to impress the new guy. That, and anything following the Roy era would seem like a blessed relief. I think what we have seen this year is a much more erratic and poorly integrated side. Unsurprising, but there are a few worrying trends in terms of gameplay and player quality. I just don't think, having seen the players and play this season that what we saw at the beginnig of his time in charge is where KD actually wants to go.

2. Your points about the old guard finally failing are well made (Gerrard is doing that thing where he phones it in and saves his legs for big matches and England finals). I would add that Kuyt has also deteriorated badly this season and Reina has also looked a lot less spry. Problem is the players brought in to make the transition to the new era from the old have failed to step up, forcing KD to rely on clapped out old fogeys.

3. Your defense of KD I feel is weak, suggesting its the players not performing rather than the manager. The problem I see it is that he brought in too much dross and its failed to perform. that is only part of the problem though, every manager can make an error of judgement (Carroll arrived in a very over-wrought, tense environment, I think that was a mistake made through urgency).

1: I'm in complete agreement;
The erratic and poorly intergrated side could be down to the sheer number of changes made in the summer (Downing, Henderson, Adam, Enrique) all brought into the first team, as well as trying to solve the problem Andy Carroll presents. And ultimately down the fact that the players who don't suit the formation (4-4-2) that we brought in to accomodate the aforementioned players are our best ones; Lucas (is better served as part of a double pivot as he played with Spearing last year rather than a conventional 'two' and Luis Suarez.

2:
Kuyt has been pretty weak this season it has to be said, and Reina had looked unsettled but I think the root of this is in how deep we have played defensively, limiting his ability to play as a the sweeper-keeper.

3:
What I am trying to put across is a sense of root cause, and while blame should be placed at Kenny's door there are questions beyond just the manager.
How much decision making power does Kenny Dalglish have when it comes to transfers?
Do we really think Kenny ten minutes into the job, on a temporary basis would have been sanctioned to sign a striker who cost 35M regardless of the Torres money?
Adam was clearly 'his man' and it wouldn't have been a difficult deal to get through would it? The player wanted to come, Blackpool would have negotiated a deal despite their grandstanding, but that was postponed until the Summer, suggesting that Comolli was doing his thing first.
Does he know that much about Sebastian Coates? Is that part of the problem perhaps?

But absolutely, we have signed dross, and lost of it;
Downing 20M has replaced Maxi. It's a downgrade.
Henderson (who I like) and Adam have come in and Aquilani and Meireles were shown the door. That's a serious downgrade in quality in our first team
Carroll for all intents and purposes replaced Torres, who despite being 'shite' has contributed with more goals and considerably more assists than Carroll.

There is no direction with our transfers, it doesn't seem like there is a clear plan and the dynamic between Comolli/Kenny is an interesting one.


The bigger problem for me is the direction KD is taking the team. When Roy Evans was replaced by Houllier that signaled the end of the old era and the embracing of the new. While Houllier has his critics, the one thing he will always be credited with is starting the club down the road to a more professional era as the old ideas of boot room etc. were abandoned in favour of a more modern outlook. Benitez came in and took that process to a new level; super fit players, modern training methods, computer analysis, a focus on data gathering etc.

The main issue with Hodgson I always had was that he represented a move away from the the direction that Houllier and Benitez had taken the club, he seemed like a step backwards to an era that was no longer relevant, big, strong, clueless, 'domestic' players in rigid 442 formation, battering down backlines and being taken apart by sophisticated intelligent players, players that are now the lifeblood of the top end of the premiership.

When KD was brought in he was hailed as a offering a direct link to the past, the man who would unify the club and heal the wounds inflicted by the old American owners. At the time I felt he represented a risk; yes he could gel the club, but what past would he link to? Would he continue the work of Houllier and Benitez, or would he directly bypass that to the pre-modern era? What we have seen then is a bizarre hybrid of the two, with sabermetric or whateveryoumacallit being used to bring in players while Dalglish seems to place a premium on British, experienced throwbacks to the long-ball, widemen, 442, little-and-large era.

Newcastle was just one more example of this, players like Skrtel, Carragher, Bellamy and Carroll, ideal for a 442 juxtaposed to players like Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard and Spearing, more suited to a flowing, mobile, pass and move style. To my eyes the current side is some sort of horrible chimera composed of two opposing strategies, each competing to see which can be the victor for the future of the club. the problem as I see it is that KD seems to be trying to develop an old fashioned, direct 442 using ill-fitting parts from a flowing, mobile, 4231. Even if he succeeds in creating his footballing vision, I'm not sure that's where the club needs to go, whether the style of football he is trying to impose is even that relevant anymore. My concern is that in the summer KD will attempt to cut the Gordian knot by offloading the likes of Maxi, Kuyt, Agger, possibly even Suarez and bringing in more players like Downing etc. Yes, results might improve, but I can't see the team achieving much more than 5-7th with that template. it just seems too far away from where the modern game has gone.

And that's just a brilliant assessment of our problems and where we go from here.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

Offline KirkVanHouten

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #136 on: April 3, 2012, 02:01:29 pm »
I'm just scared at the moment because our defence has been so solid but since Agger has been out it looks atrocious. Really, we seem to go between two different styles on a game by game basis. It's either very direct or dominating possession and doing very little with it. The problem is that we don't have enough pace to be lethal on the counter-attack and nobody really runs off of Carroll when he does win the ball, so it's really ineffective. Then when we have teams park the bus and we dominate possession we lack any real creativity apart from Suarez who ends up beating 3 men but is off balance when he shoots.

When I think about what our finishing is like on top of this I actually find myself tearing my hair out.

Offline cmoogster

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #137 on: April 3, 2012, 02:01:42 pm »
I fear for Kenny this summer. FSG have kept their counsel until now, which often indicates a pretty ruthless organisation. And there are some question marks over Kenny which may be hard to answer. His signings are a damning indictment - you either sign good players, or you make the best of your signings. Kenny has done neither.

Downing was a terrible signing - he's got a streak of yellow running through him so strong the sun seems to be shining wherever he runs. He's a disgrace.

Adam is what he is, an OK midfielder at about the £8m mark. He played quite well when Lucas was there to mop up for him, but he's out of his depth against the top teams.

Henderson, to me, is a mystery... he may blossom, but I suspect, like Downing, he doesn't have the mentality to play for this club. Good feet, good engine, but no willingness to take on responsibility, or bust a gut to break through into a danger area, or even compete for a 50/50. So many times this season he's stood there, flat on his heels, as a simple pass rolls past him...

Carroll, I actually feel some sympathy for. Clearly, he isn't top drawer. But it's not good management to sign a young striker for a big fee, then decline to play to his strengths. Even on Sunday, substituting him in front of the Geordies may have been understandable given his performance, but not when the whole team have played shit. This only undermines his confidence even more, and unfairly. He's not as ineffectual as he's being made to look, which is worrying.

If FSG have doubts about Kenny, how much will they back him in the summer? I think he's stuck - they'll either sack him, ask him to walk, or they'll decline to give him the big money he probably needs this summer, and he'll have one more season to try to get the best out of a very average squad. He's in a bind. If we win the FA Cup I can see him walking.




Nail on the head

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #138 on: April 3, 2012, 02:03:48 pm »
Agreed, I said after the semi-final and Agger's injury that we had to use these remaining months (because we were not going to get forth place) to give Coates experience and Shelvey (before Adam's injury) because we may as well have young lads making mistakes on the pitch and learning from them, than have Carragher and Adam doing the same thing they've done all season, which hadn't been good enough.

I don't know why Kenny didn't do it. All the signs from last season with his faith in Robinson and Flanagan suggested he would but we haven't seen it this term, and with much more adept and experienced footballers that the pair from the academy.

All logic tells us that Carragher shouldn't be getting minutes, so why is he?
Has Kenny got a blind spot when it comes to our number 23? Or does the status of Carragher dictate he plays?
Frankly I'm not sure what is more worrying.


1: I'm in complete agreement;
The erratic and poorly intergrated side could be down to the sheer number of changes made in the summer (Downing, Henderson, Adam, Enrique) all brought into the first team, as well as trying to solve the problem Andy Carroll presents. And ultimately down the fact that the players who don't suit the formation (4-4-2) that we brought in to accomodate the aforementioned players are our best ones; Lucas (is better served as part of a double pivot as he played with Spearing last year rather than a conventional 'two' and Luis Suarez.

2:
Kuyt has been pretty weak this season it has to be said, and Reina had looked unsettled but I think the root of this is in how deep we have played defensively, limiting his ability to play as a the sweeper-keeper.

3:
What I am trying to put across is a sense of root cause, and while blame should be placed at Kenny's door there are questions beyond just the manager.
How much decision making power does Kenny Dalglish have when it comes to transfers?
Do we really think Kenny ten minutes into the job, on a temporary basis would have been sanctioned to sign a striker who cost 35M regardless of the Torres money?
Adam was clearly 'his man' and it wouldn't have been a difficult deal to get through would it? The player wanted to come, Blackpool would have negotiated a deal despite their grandstanding, but that was postponed until the Summer, suggesting that Comolli was doing his thing first.
Does he know that much about Sebastian Coates? Is that part of the problem perhaps?

But absolutely, we have signed dross, and lost of it;
Downing 20M has replaced Maxi. It's a downgrade.
Henderson (who I like) and Adam have come in and Aquilani and Meireles were shown the door. That's a serious downgrade in quality in our first team
Carroll for all intents and purposes replaced Torres, who despite being 'shite' has contributed with more goals and considerably more assists than Carroll.

There is no direction with our transfers, it doesn't seem like there is a clear plan and the dynamic between Comolli/Kenny is an interesting one.


And that's just a brilliant assessment of our problems and where we go from here.

On Dalglish's power over transfers, it seems clear from what both Henry and Comolli have said - he has the final say. If he does not agree, the signing is not done. I agree that Adam is clearly his signing. Henderson and Downing were probably a combination of both Comolli and Dalglish - the stats would have appeled to Comolli while their Britishness and premiership experience would have appealed to Dalglish. Carroll would have given Dalglish memories of Shearer and Blackburn's style of playing while Comolli would have seen the moneyball aspects of his youth and profile at the time.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #139 on: April 3, 2012, 02:05:15 pm »
Good posts by Donkeywan and ThatKennedymoment.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #140 on: April 3, 2012, 02:07:39 pm »
On Dalglish's power over transfers, it seems clear from what both Henry and Comolli have said - he has the final say. If he does not agree, the signing is not done. I agree that Adam is clearly his signing. Henderson and Downing were probably a combination of both Comolli and Dalglish - the stats would have appeled to Comolli while their Britishness and premiership experience would have appealed to Dalglish. Carroll would have given Dalglish memories of Shearer and Blackburn's style of playing while Comolli would have seen the moneyball aspects of his youth and profile at the time.

Just seems weird doesn't it?
Could the directionless quality of it be down to the fact that you cannot really be having two people calling the shots.
Surely Comolli shoudl be scouring Europe looking for the best young talents?
It seems like the Buy British approach is routed into the Club's philosophy at the moment, and it's a terrible idea.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #141 on: April 3, 2012, 02:08:50 pm »
I fear for Kenny this summer. FSG have kept their counsel until now, which often indicates a pretty ruthless organisation. And there are some question marks over Kenny which may be hard to answer. His signings are a damning indictment - you either sign good players, or you make the best of your signings. Kenny has done neither.

Downing was a terrible signing - he's got a streak of yellow running through him so strong the sun seems to be shining wherever he runs. He's a disgrace.

Adam is what he is, an OK midfielder at about the £8m mark. He played quite well when Lucas was there to mop up for him, but he's out of his depth against the top teams.

Henderson, to me, is a mystery... he may blossom, but I suspect, like Downing, he doesn't have the mentality to play for this club. Good feet, good engine, but no willingness to take on responsibility, or bust a gut to break through into a danger area, or even compete for a 50/50. So many times this season he's stood there, flat on his heels, as a simple pass rolls past him...

Carroll, I actually feel some sympathy for. Clearly, he isn't top drawer. But it's not good management to sign a young striker for a big fee, then decline to play to his strengths. Even on Sunday, substituting him in front of the Geordies may have been understandable given his performance, but not when the whole team have played shit. This only undermines his confidence even more, and unfairly. He's not as ineffectual as he's being made to look, which is worrying.

If FSG have doubts about Kenny, how much will they back him in the summer? I think he's stuck - they'll either sack him, ask him to walk, or they'll decline to give him the big money he probably needs this summer, and he'll have one more season to try to get the best out of a very average squad. He's in a bind. If we win the FA Cup I can see him walking.

Deserves another quote. Agree with most of this.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #142 on: April 3, 2012, 02:11:06 pm »
Just seems weird doesn't it?
Could the directionless quality of it be down to the fact that you cannot really be having two people calling the shots.
Surely Comolli shoudl be scouring Europe looking for the best young talents?
It seems like the Buy British approach is routed into the Club's philosophy at the moment, and it's a terrible idea.

I think last summer Dalglish went for players he 'knew' and had seen a lot of (Coates excepted). I would expect this summer we should see more of Comolli's influence.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #143 on: April 3, 2012, 02:14:03 pm »
When KD was brought in he was hailed as a offering a direct link to the past, the man who would unify the club and heal the wounds inflicted by the old American owners. At the time I felt he represented a risk; yes he could gel the club, but what past would he link to? Would he continue the work of Houllier and Benitez, or would he directly bypass that to the pre-modern era? What we have seen then is a bizarre hybrid of the two, with sabermetric or whateveryoumacallit being used to bring in players while Dalglish seems to place a premium on British, experienced throwbacks to the long-ball, widemen, 442, little-and-large era.

Newcastle was just one more example of this, players like Skrtel, Carragher, Bellamy and Carroll, ideal for a 442 juxtaposed to players like Suarez, Enrique, Gerrard and Spearing, more suited to a flowing, mobile, pass and move style. To my eyes the current side is some sort of horrible chimera composed of two opposing strategies, each competing to see which can be the victor for the future of the club. the problem as I see it is that KD seems to be trying to develop an old fashioned, direct 442 using ill-fitting parts from a flowing, mobile, 4231. Even if he succeeds in creating his footballing vision, I'm not sure that's where the club needs to go, whether the style of football he is trying to impose is even that relevant anymore. My concern is that in the summer KD will attempt to cut the Gordian knot by offloading the likes of Maxi, Kuyt, Agger, possibly even Suarez and bringing in more players like Downing etc. Yes, results might improve, but I can't see the team achieving much more than 5-7th with that template. it just seems too far away from where the modern game has gone.

That's a good post. And the Academy is also geared towards what we had pre-Hodgson so what does that mean for them? The idea was to have a direct link from the Academy to the first team but they seem like 2 different identities at the moment. The other thing is that with a DoF in place, the culture at the club is supposed to remain consistent so that when the manager changes, we still have the same idea of what we're doing and the direction we're headed. If that's the case, then it's worrying on the evidence so far. If it isn't, what is it? We've gone down the route of being a more direct, British, 442 type though some of the players don't suit it so it's a all a bit mish mash at present. And the frustrating thing is that Dalglish last season - with the players we had then - showed he's capable of playing in a way that had a link with Rafa and the Academy which is something we could have built on. We've gone a different way and made big changes.

In the summer, once we bought the players we did, there were a lot of questions as it was obvious that they were a move away from what we had. So far it hasn't worked out (though we have played well on occasion and had some bad luck) and there's been additional questions that have come to fore like the players' mentality, leadership on and of the pitch and what definitive way we're going to play (Kenny's been changing the team an awful lot).
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #144 on: April 3, 2012, 02:16:43 pm »
If FSG have doubts about Kenny, how much will they back him in the summer? I think he's stuck - they'll either sack him, ask him to walk, or they'll decline to give him the big money he probably needs this summer, and he'll have one more season to try to get the best out of a very average squad. He's in a bind. If we win the FA Cup I can see him walking.

I'm not the first or the last to believe this;

Lose to Everton and continue this freefall and he's surely gone.

Beat Everton, have a solid inspired final win or lose, and salvage some pride from the run-in and he stays.


With all that said, I wouldn't be shocked one bit if FSG is scouting replacements right now.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #145 on: April 3, 2012, 02:18:44 pm »
Just seems weird doesn't it?
Could the directionless quality of it be down to the fact that you cannot really be having two people calling the shots.
Surely Comolli shoudl be scouring Europe looking for the best young talents?
It seems like the Buy British approach is routed into the Club's philosophy at the moment, and it's a terrible idea.

We will see in the summer whether our fears over Comolli are justified or not. The stories of us sniffing around Tello are definitely in the right direction.  Meanwhile our fears over Dalglish can still be assuaged if he changes things on the pitch to hoqw we should be playing.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #146 on: April 3, 2012, 02:28:45 pm »
1021,

Belter of a post mate. Brilliant work.

You've higlighted our problems at the back and I think the buck now must stop with Kenny. Drop Carra, play Coates.

I also think he may need to rest Enrique and play one of the youngsters or Aurelio.
If he retires I'll eat my fucking cock.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #147 on: April 3, 2012, 02:28:48 pm »
Yet another buying into the stereotype of these artisans who sit about like they are at the beach until the ball comes by them where they then do a couple of stepovers and then pass the ball to someone else and get back to working on their tan.  Frankly that is the kind of stereotyping that has done us no good.  The virus Yorky mentioned IMO has pervaded into supporter mentality.  In other words, we've lost our balls.  We no longer have any swagger as a club.  We pretend we do but actually no we don't.  We are no longer used to being the overwhelming favourites.  We prefer being underdogs and that mentality is reflected where we have ''working class heroes'' rather than throughbreds. 
 
I'm not sure what the fuck you're on about here, he was ribbing into Kuyt (again), I don't know about you, but the diggler for me has done a good job for us over the years and deserves more than the petty shite spouted in his post.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #148 on: April 3, 2012, 02:36:26 pm »
This is our worst league campaign in what, 20 years?  After spending over 100 million since January last year you would think we would have progressed just slightly, but we have been diabolical and have actually degressed. The mentality of the player has got even more fragile, the tactics have got even more transparent, our play has got even more one dimensional and our manager in now starting to crack by giving Houllieresque post match interviews.

We are an abomination of a club at the moment, not helped by the fact we had an utterly atrocious summer transfer window. I still think we have got further to go to hit rock bottom and all I can say is this summer is going to be fucking interesting.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #149 on: April 3, 2012, 02:38:05 pm »
That's a good post. And the Academy is also geared towards what we had pre-Hodgson so what does that mean for them? The idea was to have a direct link from the Academy to the first team but they seem like 2 different identities at the moment. The other thing is that with a DoF in place, the culture at the club is supposed to remain consistent so that when the manager changes, we still have the same idea of what we're doing and the direction we're headed. If that's the case, then it's worrying on the evidence so far. If it isn't, what is it? We've gone down the route of being a more direct, British, 442 type though some of the players don't suit it so it's a all a bit mish mash at present. And the frustrating thing is that Dalglish last season - with the players we had then - showed he's capable of playing in a way that had a link with Rafa and the Academy which is something we could have built on. We've gone a different way and made big changes.

In the summer, once we bought the players we did, there were a lot of questions as it was obvious that they were a move away from what we had. So far it hasn't worked out (though we have played well on occasion and had some bad luck) and there's been additional questions that have come to fore like the players' mentality, leadership on and of the pitch and what definitive way we're going to play (Kenny's been changing the team an awful lot).

God yes, the point about the academy is so well made. Both Houllier and Benitez struggled to make significant headway with the academy. Now, finally, after years of under achievement and battles the youths are looking ship shape with excellent coaches and a clear structure and style. Watching them play is a real joy, hell the kids nearly turned over Everton's reserves with a lot of established premier players in the side. Now though where do the likes of Silva, Suso etc fit in?  The only one who looks like he could get a look in is the out and out wide player sterling, mainly because he suits both styles of play. It feels like all the good work done over the last ten years, particularly in the reserves and academy are going to go to waste. I think part of the reason Pacheco failed was because he was just breaking through at a time when two managers who didn't appreciate what he brought to the game were in the ascendancy at the club.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #150 on: April 3, 2012, 02:45:44 pm »
A great post, just a few points to add though.


Very good post mate.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #151 on: April 3, 2012, 02:59:06 pm »
God yes, the point about the academy is so well made. Both Houllier and Benitez struggled to make significant headway with the academy. Now, finally, after years of under achievement and battles the youths are looking ship shape with excellent coaches and a clear structure and style. Watching them play is a real joy, hell the kids nearly turned over Everton's reserves with a lot of established premier players in the side. Now though where do the likes of Silva, Suso etc fit in?  The only one who looks like he could get a look in is the out and out wide player sterling, mainly because he suits both styles of play. It feels like all the good work done over the last ten years, particularly in the reserves and academy are going to go to waste. I think part of the reason Pacheco failed was because he was just breaking through at a time when two managers who didn't appreciate what he brought to the game were in the ascendancy at the club.

You're on a roll there - another good post. And let's not forget that the youth academy still has a long way to go - Lison and Ajax really taught them a harsh lesson in Nextgen. Will they enjoy the same encouragemetn towards a mor European style of play or will there be pressure to adopt mro British styles of playing?

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #152 on: April 3, 2012, 03:00:47 pm »


Thanks for that; really a top, top post.

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #153 on: April 3, 2012, 03:08:59 pm »
My concern is that in the summer KD will attempt to cut the Gordian knot by offloading the likes of Maxi, Kuyt, Agger, possibly even Suarez and bringing in more players like Downing etc.
I really,REALLY hope you're wrong there.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #154 on: April 3, 2012, 03:18:43 pm »
Gutted by the result, but devastated at the way we lost after starting so brightly.  Obviously, if the ref sees the handball on the line, it could have been a different story.  Sadly, looking at recent form the story would have been that we'd have missed the pen and lose 2-0.  We were by far the better team up until they scored with probably their first chance of the match.  When they scored the first, they came right back into the game but that happens.  The worst thing about the performance was that we never even looked like scoring when they went 2-0 up, they were in total control. NUFC are a team brimming with confidence, we looked racked with self-doubt.  Gerrard suffers massively from Lucas' absence, he is half as effective when asked to sit deep.  I thought Carroll played his best half hour of football in a red shirt (aside from the City game last year), definitely thought he would score at some point in the game.  He did brilliantly to fashion a chance for himself and rather than tap it in with his wrong foot, he elected to dive due to a lack of confidence.  After that, he just wasn't there. He was upset at being taken off and understandably given the circumstances. I'm glad to see the passion from him - we just need to see more of it on the pitch.

We are at a pretty low ebb at the moment, the team needs 100% support from us all.  Sniping and criticism is not going to help - particularly at Carroll who is a 23 year old, relatively inexperienced young lad with the weight of expectations of hundreds of thousands of scousers and millions of wools on his shoulders.  I find it perverse that I need to say it, but Kenny also needs our 100% backing.  He has come back and picked us up from our lowest low to lead us to a cup win and semi-final place already.  There are problems we all know about, we have not scored enough goals and several of our signings do look over-awed at playing for Liverpool FC which is a concern. I hope FSG come out and say categorically that Kenny is our manager for next year and that Andy Carroll will be a Liverpool player just to shut the vultures in the press right up (same goes for Suarez).  There is a lot of work in the summer, money does need to be spent and you've got to speculate to accumulate.  Get rid of some older players (Kuyt, Maxi, Aurelio) and buy first team replacements with a bit of pace and guile.  I'd keep last summer's signings, but they do need to be made to fight for their place.  We are in transition, this is a difficult phase, but the only way we will get out of it is by us all getting behind everyone in the a Red shirt.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #155 on: April 3, 2012, 03:29:01 pm »
I'm not sure what the fuck you're on about here, he was ribbing into Kuyt (again), I don't know about you, but the diggler for me has done a good job for us over the years and deserves more than the petty shite spouted in his post.

I quoted your own post where you said that you would much rather have workrate over artisans who just sat there.  Problem here is, artisans don't always sit around.  They do a lot more in fact and perhaps show as much work rate as anyone known for their work rate.  That is why they are artisans. 
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #156 on: April 3, 2012, 03:46:27 pm »
We need to give Coates a chance to establish a partnership with Skrtel we have gone from one of the best defences in the League to a shambles since Carra has come into the side. The build up to the two goals shows why.



Ist goal.





2nd goal





You just cannot do that your two centre backs have to play as a pairing and hold a line, in the build up to both goals Carra is running blindly for the sanctuary of the penalty area totally oblivious to where his partner and the full backs are. We have got a lightening quick sweeper keeper and he should be looking to cover the penalty area on the counter attack not Carra.

This season we have had Coates telling Carra to push up against Spurs at White Hart Lane and yesterday Shelvey told Carroll to get in the F@@king box, the experienced players aren't providing leadership the youngsters are and that needs to be put right.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #157 on: April 3, 2012, 03:48:49 pm »
Having watched the match over off the DVR, I can say that we did actually look like we could/would score even after we went down 2-0. Had Perch not been able miraculously and luckily to block Suarez's shot (after he had beaten Krul to the loose ball, and sorted himself out to take the shot, including having to worry about Carroll interfering with his shot) it could have been 'game on'.


The inclusion of Bellamy made all the sense in the world on paper, but it didn't turn out as planned, at all. Despite his trying his best, Bellamy was clearly rusty and did not offer us even 75% of what we have all come to expect of him when he's on the pitch.

Kuyt coming in for Carroll turned out to be more trouble than it was worth. Kuyt ended up on the right flank where he effectively contributed sweet eff all. If anyone needed substituting (and I know he ended up at right back/wingback after Pepe's red card) it was Gerrard, and not Shelvey.

Anyway, we weren't quite as poor/bad as all of our emotions made us think right after the end of the match. The one player who was uncharacteristically poor was Jose Enrique who may have found his nemesis in Ben Arfa.
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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #158 on: April 3, 2012, 03:57:12 pm »
Don't have many thoughts on the game besides its obvious our confidence is totally shot

Just a word on Kenny.
I've only ever had 2 heroes - people I'm a "fan" of. One is Muhammad Ali the other is Kenny

Against that background I really hope he doesn't want to do the job next year.
Not because I think he should be fired or because I think he's as much to blame as some do but because I don't see things getting better for him

He doesn't look like he's enjoying it and he's starting to look lost. He's also taking shots left and right from the media and even our own fans.
I was elated when he came back but also had the nagging voice that it could be a terrible idea as the bench mark he's set for himself here is so high and we'd already fallen so far that it could easily be the hiding to nothing its turned into.

I'd love him to turn it round but I just don't see it; certainly not quickly. The idea of us starting next year as we're finishing this and him actually being fired or the supporters getting on his back is just not something I want to see as a Kenny fan
So I hope we win the FA cup and he decides to move on (or up) amicably and FSG spend some time and money to find the next 'Rafa' who can come in and revolutionize the club over the next 5 years.

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Round Table Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
« Reply #159 on: April 3, 2012, 03:59:59 pm »
The build up to the two goals shows why.
Agree with your general point, but it's more than harsh to pin the first goal on Carragher, and not Skrtel. The ball wasn't played in at that snapshot you show, but several seconds later. We did hold a decent line then, but for some reason Skrtel dropped about 5 yards behind the rest trying to cover Cisse, when there really was no need to that at the time. It was Skrtel's mistake, not Carragher's.

If that situation had been in reverse, I doubt you would've blamed Skrtel for being a yard of 5 seconds earlier. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but my impression is that everything is Carragher's fault, all the time. There's plenty of arguments against him starting already, I think it's best if we look at those, rather than blame every single fault the team makes on him.