Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[drpepe]

It would have to be 'Negrito' as Evra (Allegedly) is a bloke.

of course. That's my Spamish for you... 

[Ipcress]

It is strange that the other day Kenny said Liverpool were not allowed to talk about the decision but Ferguson has free reign to give interviews about it.

I got the feeling this was advice from LFC lawyers.

I'd like to think that it's to leave them in a stronger legal position should they pursue the matter in the courts.

[EdEdP]

Mirra currently thinks it's racist. He's not yet commented on whether in the Uruguyan street idiom Suarez's language may have been entirely innocent.

'Negrito' can be used as a jibe and 'banter' so to speak in Uruguay and a few other South/Central American countries such as Chile, Mexico and even Cuba, but it never has racist connotations.

[shelovesyou]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

[RedRabbit]

In what way? It has been posted and reposted from language sites that 'Negrito' and 'Negro' in Uruguay, Argentina and other South American countries have no connection with colour.

What? How is that possible?

Are they suggesting that if both SWP and say Leighton Baines  went to Uruguay, they'd both be termed as negritos?

[Nessy76]

What? How is that possible?

Are they suggesting that if both SWP and say Leighton Baines  went to Uruguay, they'd both be termed as negritos?

Yes, that is exactly what people who are familiar with the phrase as it is used in Uruguay are saying.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What? How is that possible?

Are they suggesting that if both SWP and say Leighton Baines  went to Uruguay, they'd both be termed as negritos?

Yep. Look it up yourself. One easy place to start is 'Negro' on the Wiki Language site.

On that page look up 'Negrito' and 'Negro' and notice what it specifically says about Uruguay.

Or read through this thread. I'm bored of reposting it and reposting it.

[Dr Manhattan]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

Except it really isn't.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

so should suarez be hung out to dry like this if it wasnt intended as a racist comment though, and if evra was so offended why didnt he bring it up with the ref or to suarez at the time

[callanlfc5times]

Yep. Look it up yourself. One easy place to start is 'Negro' on the Wiki Language site.

On that page look up 'Negrito' and 'Negro' and notice what it specifically says about Uruguay.

Or read through this thread. I'm bored of reposting it and reposting it.

Mate every page so far it seem's you have had to post the same thing over and over again each time in response to a different person who doesn't get that Uruguay is a different country, with a different language and culture where words are different and have a different meaning over there.

[Lenin.]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

Evra is learning Korean. If he mishears a Korean word and feels that it is abusive is that that?

[RedRabbit]

To think that all of this could have been avoided if the two players had the chance to get together and discuss the issue like grown men.

I actually don't think the FA had any choice but to find Luis guilty of using a "racist" term because he admitted using it himself. The 8 game ban is ridiculously harsh though given the context it was used in, and the whole thing could have been avoided if Evra accepted Luis' explanation for using this term. However, its clear that Evra has either decided that Luis' was deliberately using a racist word towards him knowing it would be hurtful, or he has seen an opportunity to get a rival player banned for a long time.

We should appeal the ban and put forward our case that the term was not meant to be derogatory or hurtful, and lets hope the panel decide to reduce it on this basis. But the way the panel gave their verdict and then delayed giving everyone the reasons why has certainly contributed to the hate campaign against Luis, and for this the FA should be heavily criticised. They should not have given their decision until they had all of their paperwork ready to explain their decision making process.

Regarding the team wearing the Suarez shirts I had no problem with it, but the media backlash has no doubt harmed the clubs reputation with all of the negative publicity. If the panel had the balls to release their reasons for the decision to ban Luis then the public and media would have more of the facts to look at and make an informed decision on the whole thing rather than just jumping on the media's anti-Suarez campaign and berating the lad.

The whole thing has been a mess from start to finish, and sadly LFC and Luis have come out of it smelling like shit.

I agree with most of that.

I'm not sure we come out of it "smelling like shit" though. It's a shitty situation to be fair, but standing up for your player and adopting a siege mentality it something I've wanted this club to do for a long time. What other clubs fans or the media think about it is of no concern, nor should it be, to me.

[hedger]

Mark lawrenson in todays daily mirror......

 

[redsox0411]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

Perhaps he should learn proper Spanish then. There was no offence intended. Evra started a conversation in Spanish and Suarez used a term that has no racial meaning in his mother tongue, and Evra is offended, because said word is an offensive one in their common second  language? Beyond the Pale

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Mark lawrenson in todays daily mirror......

 

you mean the banned daily mirror

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Perhaps he should learn proper Spanish then. There was no offence intended. Evra started a conversation in Spanish and Suarez used a term that has no racial meaning in his mother tongue, and Evra is offended, because said word is an offensive one in their common second  language? Beyond the Pale

and also evra is meant to be good mates with some of the south americans who've played there isnt he?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Mark lawrenson in todays daily mirror......

 

Why are you reading the Mirror though mate? It's been Anti-Liverpool and Anti-LFC from when I was a kid. It's never changed. My missus dad reads it and I just don't get it. He says it's because he likes the crosswords.

A pile of shite written by a pile of wankers from what I've read of the useless fucking pile of twat.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

In terms of the FA sentence, 'proportionality' is the key word as it sends a message that, in their belief, Luis offence was the extreme of racial abuse.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

and also evra is meant to be good mates with some of the south americans who've played there isnt he?

He is. They use the same term to him. In part this is why Suarez was so astonished by the Ban and fine and label of 'racist'.

I'm wondering why Evra hasn't reported them to the FA. Or is it because he already knows what the meaning is?

I'm sure it will all come out.

[Passmaster Molby]

I agree with most of that.

I'm not sure we come out of it "smelling like shit" though. It's a shitty situation to be fair, but standing up for your player and adopting a siege mentality it something I've wanted this club to do for a long time. What other clubs fans or the media think about it is of no concern, nor should it be, to me.

The part about smelling like shit refers to how the club is preceived by the football community, and right now we are getting a kicking like it or not. This "could" have an effect in turn on sponsors etc, although I would hope that they are sensible enough to realise the club doesn't condone racism despite the warblings of people like Adrian Durham et al.

[stockdam]

To think that all of this could have been avoided if the two players had the chance to get together and discuss the issue like grown men.

Well not if Evra thought that Suarez was a racist......however he clearly said otherwise and so you are absolutely correct. Sort it out privately and if necessary between the two clubs.
 

The whole thing has been a mess from start to finish, and sadly LFC and Luis have come out of it smelling like shit.

Once it went public then somebody was going to suffer. Evra stated that Suarez wasn't a racist but now the mud is going to stick and that's not going to do him any good. The feeling between the clubs is bound to worsen now.

You've got to be very careful when accusing somebody of racist remarks in football and you've basically given every away crowd to jeer his every touch. Is that what you wanted Evra especially as you claim Suarez is not a racist?

[Smudgester]

If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.

Is it bollox. If that's how it works (which it isn't by the way) I can pick any word at random I like that you have said to me and claim it's offensive to me and do what Evra did. The 'crux of it' is that you meant to offend not that I was offended.

As for Ferguson and his comments; "the matter is over" - says who ? I am not sure why he thinks that's for his club to decide, and "we're satisfied with the decision" - doesn't really matter if they weren't, they don't set the punishment the FA does ... what would he (or will he) do then when/if Suarez gets a reduced ban through appeal or gets cleared entirely ?

[Bob Loblaw]

...and everyone else is entitled to an opinion without the fear of being put in hospital.

Sorry, mate, but that standpoint makes you the racially intolerant one, much as I appreciate that you're trying to be the exact opposite and protective of what you perceive to be the wronged ethnic minority group. If you can't accept someone might have a slightly different understanding of racial terms than you and the black lads you know, and it's possible for some cultures to use black in a non-perjorative sense, then I would humbly suggest your attitude is, ironically, one of racial intolerance and your proposed approach to anyone transgressing your view of the world is frankly pretty ugly.

All this boils down to communication, words, meaning and interpretation. Suggesting that you would injure someone and put them in hospital for an unintended slur, however heinous it might sound, is bewildering and does you or any racial minority no good whatsoever.

Very well said.

[Dr Manhattan]

Mark lawrenson in todays daily mirror......

 

There's actually not too much wrong with what he's said, other than the fact that he seems to think that the football side of things and the fact that he can't play for us during his ban is the most important thing, and hardly mentioning the damage caused to Luis Suarez as a person, which for me is THE most important aspect of all of this, coupled with the precedent the FA are disastrously setting.

[Hij]

M

[Nessy76]

Is it bollox. If that's how it works (which it isn't by the way) I can pick any word at random I like that you have said to me and claim it's offensive to me and do what Evra did. The 'crux of it' is that you meant to offend not that I was offended.

Depends what the word is. "Negro" comes with a certain amount of baggage, you have to see that.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Depends what the word is. "Negro" comes with a certain amount of baggage, you have to see that.

in english it does, not in spanish which was the language of the conversation

[Nessy76]

in english it does, not in spanish which was the language of the conversation

I understand that, but it isn't just "picking any word at random" is it?

[Fruity]

in english it does, not in spanish which was the language of the conversation

not in its own right is it racist but in spanish it means black. It just depends what went before the "black" and what went after and until we all know exactly what that was its hard to know.

[Eeyore]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

Which bit of Suarez saying he only used a word Evra's team mates use didn't you understand.

[RedRabbit]

Yep. Look it up yourself. One easy place to start is 'Negro' on the Wiki Language site.

On that page look up 'Negrito' and 'Negro' and notice what it specifically says about Uruguay.

Or read through this thread. I'm bored of reposting it and reposting it.

Fair enough.

[Red number seven]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

Really not that simple, even though I understand why you're saying it is.

In terms of a strict, technical application of the law, you can argue that it is. After all, Suarez used a term that a reasonable man could take to be insulting and made reference to black, which is the colour of Evra's skin, and Evra took offence. This fits the definition and therefore makes him guilty.

BUT

1. Evra openend the conversation with (it seems) a pretty vile, racist insult, IN SPANISH.

2. Suarez response was patronising (I don't think it was endearing or friendly use of the word negro/negrito, nor do I think it was meant in a racially perjorative way) and also IN SPANISH.

3. The initial insult and response have been translated into English such that they both lose their meaning in the language in which they were used, the language in which Evra started the exchange in Spanish. The two terms are now entirely different pollluted as they are by British colonial history and racism rather than Spanish colonial history and racism.

4. The charge is about racist language. One of two things should have happened.

Either...It should not be translated. It should be judged in the idiom and with the context this gives.

Or... After translation, Suarez could only be found guilty, but the culturo-linguistic complexities should've completely mitigate Suarez's sentence such that it should merely have been a large suspended sentence hanging over him, with LFC guaranteeing to educate him and the FA/PFA/Kick it out campaign learning from the experience and setting up bespoke educational packages for foreign players to understand the cultural differences and aceeptable norms in Britain.


But no, scapegoat the foreigner, make a cheap political point and bury the real problems. The FA way

[stockdam]

I agree with this quote from Steve Doughty of the Daily Mail

We need to tell the difference between the sort of gross and repugnant racism that used to disfigure British football grounds and the low-level everyday heat-of-the-moment on-field abuse that may or may not have been intended as a racial slur.
We need to be aware that there is a danger of going round in ever-decreasing circles.
My view is that the Suarez punishment was a mistake and will only serve to deepen resentment and bad feeling among thousands of football fans.

[Fruity]

Which bit of Suarez saying he only used a word Evra's team mates use didn't you understand.

The thing is though I think that is irrelevant as well. What your mates call you is not what you would allow a stranger to call you. Your mates can call you "fat" as banter". You are not going be laughing if some random/competitor etc called you "Fat"

[shelovesyou]

so should suarez be hung out to dry like this if it wasnt intended as a racist comment though, and if evra was so offended why didnt he bring it up with the ref or to suarez at the time

Of course he shouldnt mate, Im as appaled at the witchunt as anyone.
Of course as well it was not intended to be a racist comment, but regardless of intention if it happened to offend Evra, which in turn it seemed to, and i realise thats very questionable when we consider he mentioned nothing to the ref at the time, that however does not mean he wasnt offended by it.

[shelovesyou]

In terms of the FA sentence, 'proportionality' is the key word as it sends a message that, in their belief, Luis offence was the extreme of racial abuse.

Absolutely agree mate. And for the record I am disgusted by the way the media and the FA have treated this incident.

[Haemoglobin]

Even once the offending word is revealed in the published documents, if it is negro, we'll need to know whether it was said as 'knee-grow' or 'negg-row'. You'd assume Suarez would have used the latter, and using the former could be seen as quite a bit dodgier, so it's a very impotant distinction.

That word itself has only become a no-no in English as a result of the shameful history of segregation in the United States of America. Obviously you'd get yourself in similar hot water if you ever said "Hey you, black", or "What's up, black?" to a black person (unless of course you were on the closest of terms with them, and it was more a sort of mutually agreeable affectionate nickname that truly transcended both race and political correctness - like honestly enjoying being called whitey or blanco by good friends of other ethnicities). But it's generally understood that "the tall black guy over there in the leather jacket" is absolutely fine, and a world away from "the tall negro [knee-grow] guy over there...". This is why this particular case calls for a great deal of sensitivity and clarity in its handling, for the sake of both parties.

One things for certain, whoever made the decision to publish the verdict long before providing the evidence is either an idiot or a complete cunt or both. They've left Luis and LFC dangling precariously in the media storm.

[john_mac]

Just read Reade's article and I dont think anyone could disagree with it.
If Suarez used a term that Evra found offensive it matters not what we believe or the club believes, thats the crux of it.
I appreciate and understand the need to eradicate the notion that Suarez is a racist and im all for that, becuase thats what he has been branded, and unfortunately , success or no success at appeal will not change that for the majority.

But whether we like it or not if Evra was offended by what Suarez said, thats that.

bollox

what about if Suarez used a term that both Evra and his manager thought he could use to his advantage

[Red number seven]

The part about smelling like shit refers to how the club is preceived by the football community, and right now we are getting a kicking like it or not. This "could" have an effect in turn on sponsors etc, although I would hope that they are sensible enough to realise the club doesn't condone racism despite the warblings of people like Adrian Durham et al.

Additionally, it's not over yet. NESN, John Henry's American mouthpiece, have already started to explain LFC's and Suarez's position. I think this is going to be an ugly war that will be waged via media and legal fronts, and if and when the "Sudaco" stuff comes out, a few people, like Adrian Durham and Paul McGrath are going to look pretty fucking hypocritical.

[Bouncer]

He called him "Mate"

You'd honestly hospitalise someone if they called you "mate" or "Pal" in English?

Some people seem to be  more sensitive, attuned or aware of these things than others by all accounts.