Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[liverpooll]

I am really surprised and mentioned us before,

It cannot and absolutely cannot be seen as something anti-Liverpool, if we aim to discuss the fa is anti-liverpool or basically why me? why always me?(have this kind of thinking), we will not go much ahead. We need to be focused on topic and be specific to this context.

[WorldChampions]

Negrito doesn't mean anything in English? Would you put me in hospital if I called your kids ubgreubgerubg

[stockdam]

I find the whole thing disturbing and sad.

When I was called names to my face on the football pitch I knew they were shallow and just trying to wind me up. The response is to tell them to shut up and carry on. Complaining about it would never cross my mind as I'm big enough to sort it out.

However when it becomes a couple of players using the same insult then it's a targeted attack and in that case it should be brought up by the club as a complaint against the other club. This is a sign of a problem and should be stamped out immediately. I never witnessed this and I have no evidence that it goes on.

Back to the Suarez incident.

What makes it so pathetic is that neither Evra nor Ferguson appear to have stopped to think........

Evra said that Suarez is not racist. However by dragging him through this then he should have known that Suarez would now be labelled as a racist. Is that what the goal was? If so then that's sick.

As I said, if Suarez said something on the pitch that was deemed to be racist then deal with it between the people or the clubs. I'm pretty sure LFC would have issued a quiet statement to apologise for any offence taken and would also have taken Suarez aside and let him know not to use such a phrase again. If he subsequently does it again then the club would fine him heavily.

So if the guy "isn't a racist" then deal with it privately as when it goes public then it spirals out of control.

The baying for blood now and the polarisation is becoming a nightmare that will take a life of its own.

I'm pretty sure that Suarez is not a racist but I don't know if he used a racist comment to wind up Evra. If so then sort it out between the clubs and stamp it out immediately. Get rid of anyone who doesn't heed the private warning.

Going public does nobody any good unless the person is clearly racist. In that case the FA ban him for life. The same goes for somebody who is anti Jew, Irish, Asian, Chinese etc.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I think it would all have been a lot easier if Luis had apologised at the start. If you accidentally offend someone, that's the normal thing to do (ala Hansen).

As I said earlier, I once accidentally offended a Japanese girl by using the word 'oriental'. I apologised and explained I was unaware it was offensive, it seemed the right thing to do even though I had been guilty of nothing more than ignorance.

Suarez should have apologised to someone for calling them "mate" or "pal"?

If you called someone "mate" and then they demanded an apology what would you do?

"Er. Sorry Pal... Oh! Ah! I mean.. Honestly I didn't mean to upset you mate.. OH! SHIT!! Sorry mate.. Oh. Fuck. Er... Shite..."

[Timbo's Goals]

That would be a first in recent years.

 

[pewithree3]

In the seventies I worked in a car factory and changed shifts
and started working with a bloke from Glasgow.
His name was John as did another bloke we worked with so
I shouted Jock to him.
He exploded, going to punch me as he hated being called
Jock as it was racist!

[SRAWL]

A form of racism is when you put your own cultural ideals so far above other races or nationalities that your's becomes supreme.

Example: Judging that which is said in Spanish only after translating it into English because the majority of the population of the location you are in is English.

To ignore that other cultures and races have their own languages and their own phrases and understanding is racist.

Agree somewhat with this. What should have happened is: Evra complaining through the correct channels and Luis apologising for any offence he may have caused, but specifically highlighting that he did not mean it in an offensive way (as it is commonplace in his culture). This whole situation has gotten out of hand and the result is ridiculous for Luis and for the fight against racism as a whole. Luis has now been branded a racist and The FA have, again, confirmed what a waste of space they are by making a decision based on ignoring the normalities of a different culture and comparing them against Britain's "culture".

[Tony Clueless]

todo mi negro's???  Im pretty sure if I said that in spain/uruguay etc they would look at me funny 

That isn't how you say "mate".........companero maybe?

[drpepe]

191 pages and going strong!

I'm still not clear on what my view is.

Evra is such a horrible little twat it's hard to have any point of view that doesn't come down squarely against him.
I get the language difference totally.
I want to support Suarez, and like everyone else, I'm sure he's not a racist.

But...but...he's not stupid, and he must know that there are different meanings to be interpreted from it.
Having realised that Evra was blabbing to the press about it, his response should have been "where I come from it's not an offensive word, and I didn't mean it in an offensive way and I'm sorry if any offence was taken".
Problem solved two months ago. 
Instead this has all been hush hush, we didn't even know what had been said for weeks, and now at the end of another bit of hush hush with the panel we get the very very worst possible outcome for us.
We've not played this smart at all.
Irrespective of whether offence was meant (and don't tell me in the heat of the game that NO offence was possibly intended - because that doesn't wash either), the right thing to do is apologise and move on....and if he'd done that as soon as it blew up we would squarely be on the moral high-ground.
Instead - as fucking usual - us trying to convince the world that what we're saying is right.

good post and  something I had been considering - although i doubt Evra would have dropped the proceedings  , it would not have been an admission on suarez' side of any guilt whatsoever ,  but may have had a mitigating effect on the punishment (plus the possibility of added sympathy from media commentators which is always important to how the fa act on such incidents).

The Echo actually states today "The word used was Negro not Negrito".

I could not see them saying that unless they were privy to some information.

that possibly changes things. 

[Bouncer]

It's actually disgusting what the fa are doing. While the commission are on holidays celebrating Christmas with their families another person is having to put up with a witch hunt, abuse,almost the whole country against him. They've left him to the dogs, probably ruined his Christmas fucking disgusting.

Exactly ... Happy Fucking Christmas you incompetent FA fuckers and journos .... over a septic little c*nt and his odious gaffers misinterpretation and misunderstanding of an alien language!!

[Johnnyboy1973]

In the seventies I worked in a car factory and changed shifts
and started working with a bloke from Glasgow.
His name was John as did another bloke we worked with so
I shouted Jock to him.
He exploded, going to punch me as he hated being called
Jock as it was racist!

Good on him.

[koppitekop11]

that possibly changes things. 

How does it change anything?

If it was Negro then Negro means black. Hansen has been crucified for not using the word black on motd.

[Fruity]

Agree somewhat with this. What should have happened is: Evra complaining through the correct channels and Luis apologising for any offence he may have caused, but specifically highlighting that he did not mean it in an offensive way (as it is commonplace in his culture). This whole situation has gotten out of hand and the result is ridiculous for Luis and for the fight against racism as a whole. Luis has now been branded a racist and The FA have, again, confirmed what a waste of space they are by making a decision based on ignoring the normalities of a different culture and comparing them against Britain's "culture".

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. It is ridiculous and unless there is something in that evidence we are missing then the FA have made an absolute mess of this.

[Eeyore]

The Echo actually states today "The word used was Negro not Negrito".

I could not see them saying that unless they were privy to some information.

They are both owned by the Trinity Mirror group given that the Mirror branded Suarez a racist even though the FA and Evra didn't. I would take anything that particular Newspaper group say with a huge pinch of salt.

With the possibility of a libel case in the offing it would certainly be in the Trinity Mirror groups interest to muddy the waters.

[drpepe]

How does it change anything?

If it was Negro then Negro means black. Hansen has been crucified for not using the word black on motd.

hansen was describing players in the PL.

If you take the interpretation that suarez was using 'black' as a bit of a windup then it would clearly be a wind up with a racial element - ie. not allowed.

[THELEFTBACK]

Brian Reade finally comments:
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Brian-Reade-column-Why-Liverpool-must-draw-clean-line-under-Luis-Suarez-row-or-risk-soiling-the-club-s-name-article845934.html

 

When Brian Reade comments he is usually worth listening to.His newspaper clearly is a rival to the s*n.His politics appear working class based and he is a season ticket holder.That should justify that his opinions are at least heard.
The worry is that people will just dismiss them purely because he doesn't toe the party line on this issue.His continued campaign for raising the JFT96 campaign alone should grant him a proper hearing.

Any disagreement with him will be based on a shared understanding and he'll debate fairly.He is the one journalist who certainly cannot be accused of having an anti-Liverpool agenda.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

that possibly changes things. 

In what way? It has been posted and reposted from language sites that 'Negrito' and 'Negro' in Uruguay, Argentina and other South American countries have no connection with colour.

I personally wonder if Evra would have played his racist card if he'd known that Suarez's grandfather was black?

I'm surprised that our diligent media haven't done the investigation on the usage of the word and the backg... Ha ha ha. Sorry I can't even finish that sentence. The idea of expecting our media to even begin to do their fucking job and do it with any sense of decency, honour or diligence is entirely fucking hilarious.

[**** The Pain Away.]

Could someone tell me what is considered racism and what that is not (apart from the obvious)?

Black, colored, dark, negro...?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

todo mi negro's???  Im pretty sure if I said that in spain/uruguay etc they would look at me funny 

That isn't how you say "mate".........companero maybe?

You sure about that?

Let me get this straight - you are honestly saying that people in Spain speak the same Spanish as people in South America?

[indianscouser]

Another good post there matey & so so very true. I quite enjoy reading your posts.

+1

[smallprint]

I'm pretty sure that the majority of south america speaks portugese don't they ?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

When Brian Reade comments he is usually worth listening to.His newspaper clearly is a rival to the s*n.His politics appear working class based and he is a season ticket holder.That should justify that his opinions are at least heard.
The worry is that people will just dismiss them purely because he doesn't toe the party line on this issue.His continued campaign for raising the JFT96 campaign alone should grant him a proper hearing.

Any disagreement with him will be based on a shared understanding and he'll debate fairly.He is the one journalist who certainly cannot be accused of having an anti-Liverpool agenda.

I disagree. I've read plenty of shite off him over the years. He has done some sterling work for Liverpool FC and Liverpool in the whole. But he is also employed by the Daily Mirror. And when it comes down to it, he has to do what they tell him. They will also edit his pieces and they will also add headlines.

If you got him in a private conversation then I have no doubt of what you say and I would agree 100%

But he is not his own master when working for a paper. If they have an agenda or 'party line' then they simply would not let him continually create articles that directly contradicted that. I would have thought that was an obvious point that everyone would be aware of.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm pretty sure that the majority of south america speaks portugese don't they ?

No. Brazil speak Portuguese. Countries like Uruguay and Argentina speak South American variations of Spanish.

(I've been to all three as well)

[SP]

Could someone tell me what is considered racism and what that is not (apart from the obvious)?

Black, colored, dark, negro...?

It is not that simple. All of those words could be used in racist and non-racist contexts. You cannot formulate a simple mechanistic approach to judge racist intent.

[john_mac]

See Ferguson thinks the decision w as fair and we should shut up and live with it. Now there's a surprise it is all down to that prick and the FA in his pocket. What a c*nt

[Bob Loblaw]

So when are we making a formal complaint about Evra?

[SP]

So when are we making a formal complaint about Evra?

When we receive the written evidence that he has committed an offence.

[The G in Gerrard]

When we receive the written evidence that he has committed an offence.

Do the FA need a complaint raised before they can investigate anything Evra may or may not have said?

[Chakan]

Do the FA need a complaint raised before they can investigate anything Evra may or may not have said?

More than likely yeah.

[Passmaster Molby]

To think that all of this could have been avoided if the two players had the chance to get together and discuss the issue like grown men.

I actually don't think the FA had any choice but to find Luis guilty of using a "racist" term because he admitted using it himself. The 8 game ban is ridiculously harsh though given the context it was used in, and the whole thing could have been avoided if Evra accepted Luis' explanation for using this term. However, its clear that Evra has either decided that Luis' was deliberately using a racist word towards him knowing it would be hurtful, or he has seen an opportunity to get a rival player banned for a long time.

We should appeal the ban and put forward our case that the term was not meant to be derogatory or hurtful, and lets hope the panel decide to reduce it on this basis. But the way the panel gave their verdict and then delayed giving everyone the reasons why has certainly contributed to the hate campaign against Luis, and for this the FA should be heavily criticised. They should not have given their decision until they had all of their paperwork ready to explain their decision making process.

Regarding the team wearing the Suarez shirts I had no problem with it, but the media backlash has no doubt harmed the clubs reputation with all of the negative publicity. If the panel had the balls to release their reasons for the decision to ban Luis then the public and media would have more of the facts to look at and make an informed decision on the whole thing rather than just jumping on the media's anti-Suarez campaign and berating the lad.

The whole thing has been a mess from start to finish, and sadly LFC and Luis have come out of it smelling like shit.

[Nessy76]

Could someone tell me what is considered racism and what that is not (apart from the obvious)?

Black, colored, dark, negro...?

In the UK, generally "black" is the preferred term. Individuals may, of course, feel differently. But if you live somewhere where "coloured" is spelt "colored" you should probably check with the locals.

[Eeyore]

See Ferguson thinks the decision w as fair and we should shut up and live with it. Now there's a surprise it is all down to that prick and the FA in his pocket. What a c*nt

It is strange that the other day Kenny said Liverpool were not allowed to talk about the decision but Ferguson has free reign to give interviews about it.

[Nessy76]

Do the FA need a complaint raised before they can investigate anything Evra may or may not have said?

Of course not. The club has already said that it should be investigated anyway.

[drpepe]

In what way? It has been posted and reposted from language sites that 'Negrito' and 'Negro' in Uruguay, Argentina and other South American countries have no connection with colour.

I personally wonder if Evra would have played his racist card if he'd known that Suarez's grandfather was black?

I'm surprised that our diligent media haven't done the investigation on the usage of the word and the backg... Ha ha ha. Sorry I can't even finish that sentence. The idea of expecting our media to even begin to do their fucking job and do it with any sense of decency, honour or diligence is entirely fucking hilarious.

i totally agree.

However, it is the interpretation/lack of interpretation by the FA panel that may have made it 'worse' to have used negro in their eyes, rather than a word like negrita which has absolutely no equivalent (spelling-wise).

[The G in Gerrard]

More than likely yeah.

Of course not. The club has already said that it should be investigated anyway.

That's cleared that up

[Red number seven]

He may not be racist Suarez, but If I called any of the black lads I know "Negrito" or whatever while having a argument with them or in any conversation to be honest id expect it to kick off. You dont say things like that, I was married to a black woman and 3 of my kids are mixed race and if anyone called any of them anything like that id put them in hospital, friendly or not. Its not on. Before any of the internet warriors in here kick off with me or whatever, dont bother. Im entitled to an opinion even if it isnt the same as yours.

...and everyone else is entitled to an opinion without the fear of being put in hospital.

Sorry, mate, but that standpoint makes you the racially intolerant one, much as I appreciate that you're trying to be the exact opposite and protective of what you perceive to be the wronged ethnic minority group. If you can't accept someone might have a slightly different understanding of racial terms than you and the black lads you know, and it's possible for some cultures to use black in a non-perjorative sense, then I would humbly suggest your attitude is, ironically, one of racial intolerance and your proposed approach to anyone transgressing your view of the world is frankly pretty ugly.

All this boils down to communication, words, meaning and interpretation. Suggesting that you would injure someone and put them in hospital for an unintended slur, however heinous it might sound, is bewildering and does you or any racial minority no good whatsoever.

[drpepe]

It is strange that the other day Kenny said Liverpool were not allowed to talk about the decision but Ferguson has free reign to give interviews about it.

as ferguson stated, to him "the matter is over". 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

i totally agree.

However, it is the interpretation/lack of interpretation by the FA panel that may have made it 'worse' to have used negro in their eyes, rather than a word like negrita which has absolutely no equivalent (spelling-wise).

It would have to be 'Negrito' as Evra (Allegedly) is a bloke.

[Nessy76]

i totally agree.

However, it is the interpretation/lack of interpretation by the FA panel that may have made it 'worse' to have used negro in their eyes, rather than a word like negrita which has absolutely no equivalent (spelling-wise).

True. If the argument is that ignorance is no defence, then using a word such as "negro" which is so similar to the English word "negro" could still be an offence. Suarez' case would then have to be a plea for a lenient sentence, based on cultural differences.

The word "negrito", on the other hand, is a purely Spanish word with no connotations in English. If Luis said that, there should be no case to answer.

[The G in Gerrard]

He may not be racist Suarez, but If I called any of the black lads I know "Negrito" or whatever while having a argument with them or in any conversation to be honest id expect it to kick off.

I'd be surprised you would use that terminology so that's an irrelevant example imo