Author Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)  (Read 894255 times)

Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5640 on: December 22, 2011, 02:00:03 pm »
My understanding is that as far as the Club are concerned the abusive comments and the reference to colour were in separate conversations. The two players were abusive to each other and then when they had been spoken to by the Ref Suarez made the calm down comment that had the reference to colour in it. 

Suarez offered an olive branch gave Evra a friendly pat on the head and moved on but Evra took offence.

Evra said Suarez used the word 10 times did he not?
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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5641 on: December 22, 2011, 02:00:46 pm »
There's something a lot of people aren't really picking up on. Racism isn't simply just a case of saying things like (and I beg your pardon in advance, I'm merely using these terms as example) n*gger, p*ki, desert rat, k*ke, etc. It's perfectly possible to be racist without using explicit language.

In 2003, the day war was declared on Iraq I decided to carry one of the placards that were used in the protests in London against the prospect of going to war. It was one of the official 'Stop the War' ones, so not something I made myself. All I did was carry it around. I took it with me to school and displayed it prominently in the car and carried it around the school campus. My school had a large cadet movement and quite a few teachers were members of the TA who faced the prospect of being called up. Needless to say, it was a massive talking point and I was well aware that I would be drawing attention to myself but I did it anyway. Many teachers commented in class or in private to me that they either agreed or disagreed with my point of view but respected the way I protested.

Except one teacher who stopped me in the hallway and asked me what passport I had. I'd never been taught by this particular teacher so I was confused that she'd ask such a blunt question without introducing herself or even asking me why I was protesting. I asked her why she wanted to know and why it was important and after going around in circles, she conceded that she was interested in my insight. I explained that I was British but my roots were from Iraq. She seemed satisfied by this answer and walked away.

The next day, I was telling a mate about this and told him it was really confusing. He said that he'd been in her class that afternoon and she asked them if anyone was friends with me or knew me. Then she started asking them if I was British and then wondered if I "paid any taxes" and then concluded that my family and I "must have enjoyed the benefits of the education and health systems."

Now, forget the details for the time being. For someone, anyone at all, to say that about me and my family is utterly disgraceful and at best xenophobic and at worst horribly racist. I was absolutely appalled and shaken and the only thing I could think of doing was calling my dad. Who incidentally worked in the public sector the entire time he was in this country (so directly giving something back to the country) as well as sending me to a private school (albeit on a large scholarship, otherwise there was no way we could afford it). So our 'burden' on the state was much lower than average, not to mention directly contributing to this daft cow's pay.

Needless to say, my dad went nuclear and was on the phone to the school, solicitors, you name it. Official statements were taken and the best the school could offer was that she 'didn't recall' what she said and she apologised for any distress caused. She didn't even have the guts to say this to my face, let alone in public similar to the initial comments to the class I wasn't even in.
Given the school's weak stance, I ended up simply leaving the week after.

She didn't call me a sand n*gger, she didn't even say anything to my face. Basically, she just regurgitated the sort of crap you read in the Daily Express or Mail in front of other people. I doubt you'll find anyone who will defend her actions, though, at the very least in airing political views in school. I found it incredibly insulting.

What does this have to do with the Suarez issue? In my opinion, this dilutes the issue of racism in such a way that can only harm the fight against prejudice and ignorance. I said when the allegations first surfaced that I couldn't believe Luis was racist but if he was, I wouldn't want him at the club a day longer. When I heard he said the word 'negrito', rather than immediately jump to conclusions I waited for the club's reaction and for a more informed explanation of the connotations of that term.
In fact, the whole issue has just made Evra look much worse. Saying 'get your hands off me, you South American' is far worse in my eyes than calling someone 'negrito'. The connotations of Evra's statement suggests that 'South American' is a derogatory term, much like that teacher implying that my family had no place in the country and that we offered nothing to society, are far more serious than Suarez calling him negrito. In fact, if Evra was communicating with him in Spanish, would that not suggest that Evra was well aware of the nuances of Spanish-speaking cultures? Particularly with Hernandez at the club who has shown since 2007 that he uses that term as well.
I wish that we lived in a society here that didn't give two shits about someone's skin colour or ethnicity. I don't label myself as anything other than British because what else am I? I was raised here and my mother tongue is English. Sure, I have a different background and I'm not ashamed of it. But why am I different to any other Brits because of where my parents or grandparents were from? Is coming down hard on Suarez for using the word 'negrito' going to bring us closer to that? I doubt it. But I can tell you that letting Evra's words slide is more damaging.

Racism comes in many shapes or forms, to different degrees. You could argue the toss about the place of 'negrito' in British society all you like but there's absolutely no call for saying something like 'get your hands off me, you South American.' And right now, there's only one person who has admitted to saying something in anger and it wasn't Luis Suarez.
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Offline B.Red

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5642 on: December 22, 2011, 02:02:39 pm »
Why wouldn't he ? It's the only common language they both speak with any degree of fluency

Sorry how do you know and why do you think Evra speaks Spanish? He's French/African and plays in England. I'm not discounting the possibility that he took some time to learn it but it'd be unusual.

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5643 on: December 22, 2011, 02:03:11 pm »
Good post, until you singled out the middle classes and accused them of being racist.  Wrong on many levels.

I didn't I singled out the middle class fools at the FA. You could argue that the very fact that we have a class system in this Country means we have failed to be inclusive.
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Offline Smudgester

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5644 on: December 22, 2011, 02:03:13 pm »
You need to understand that there are degrees of insulting language. A reference to someone's colour, meaning to insult someone's race, is seriously objectionable. Calling someone a generic swear word is not harmful and is empty of meaning.

And you need to understand that the 8 match ban is made up of 2 lots of 4 games; 4 games for "insulting behaviour" and 4 games for the racial context. As Lohag said, plenty of players use "insuilting behaviour" every single game and yet none of them have been given 4 game bans.

Sorry how do you know and why do you think Evra speaks Spanish? He's French/African and plays in England. I'm not discounting the possibility that he took some time to learn it but it'd be unusual.

It's well known he is fluent in 5 languages, one of which is Spanish. Given Suarez's command of English, it is certainly far more reasonable to assume the conversation was in anything but English.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 02:06:48 pm by Smudgester »

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5645 on: December 22, 2011, 02:03:26 pm »
Again, I really don't think "Negro" is racist.

Whether the word(s) used is racist or not is not actually relevant to the case. All that's relevant in terms of the rules under which Suarez has been charged are:

a) Whether the word(s) was "threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting" [Rule E3(1)]

in if that is the case then the following would also come into play as an "aggravating factor":

b) "including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability" [Rule E3(2)]
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Offline belfast-connection

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5646 on: December 22, 2011, 02:03:43 pm »
Seriously? It shouldn't matter but it does in this country. The issue is prejudice and race hatred. I am happy to defend Suarez because I am happy from what I know that this was a technical offence - he was found guilty of using insulting language and referring to Evra's skin colour - and that Luis is not racist.

If I thought Suarez was a racist I would want him out of this club like a shot.

There are people who use the word 'black' as an insult because they believe black people are inferior etc. If there is racist intent behind the use of the word then yes, it fucking matters and is not 'PC gone mad'.

i think that the point our legal team is on, the point the LFC statement is on, the players statement is on and the fans are on is that this should not be a technical offence

the connotations are such that there must be intent to be racist before the charge is proved

i suspect that the judgment will indicate that objectively speaking the words were 'racist' to use the shorthand whereas our case must be that subjectively they must be spoken with racist intent

defending our player on that territory is fine, but the distinction appears to have escaped the hysterical media masses
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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5647 on: December 22, 2011, 02:03:44 pm »
Sorry how do you know and why do you think Evra speaks Spanish? He's French/African and plays in England. I'm not discounting the possibility that he took some time to learn it but it'd be unusual.

He speaks Spanish.
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Offline The Fletcher Memorial

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5648 on: December 22, 2011, 02:06:51 pm »
If the customer was white would the first descriptive term out of your mouth be the colour of his skin?

It could/would if the country you were in was populated predominantly by black people, i.e. white people were a minority.
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Offline jimmyred2010

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5649 on: December 22, 2011, 02:07:17 pm »
If the customer was white would the first descriptive term out of your mouth be the colour of his skin?

Dont be so picky, you know what i mean. See am i racist now because i even thought of saying a colour ?

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5650 on: December 22, 2011, 02:07:20 pm »
SMD, brilliant post. The last part is exactly what I've been thinking over the last couple of days.
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Re: Brilliant Suarez article from goal.com
« Reply #5651 on: December 22, 2011, 02:07:29 pm »
Except here in Cork. :)


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Offline Pilchard

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Re: Brilliant Suarez article from goal.com
« Reply #5652 on: December 22, 2011, 02:07:59 pm »
Its been a couple of days now since the FA announced the ban and I still havnt calmed down. I feel that I have to get my current feelings on paper, although I know I must be careful not to upset anybody.

Here goes.

Racism laws were introduced to give predominately black and Asian people in Britain the same rights as the indiginous population. Those laws were needed and were rightly introduced. Nobody should be prevented from education, work, promotion or many other activities based on skin colour. Those laws also covered the treatment of minorities and the possibility of incitement of hatred towards them. Again quite right and apt.

 But what seems to have happened is that the laws have been taken to extremes and we now see children in playground spats being branded racist for calling their mates names! We see footballers being castigated for what in reality is a paga between two grown men. Despite the language used, things are often said in the heat of an argument. It would be a saintly person indeed who cant recount saying something to someone then immediately regretting it.

I dislike John Terry with a passion, but maybe, when he was first aware of an alleged racist comment,  Anton Ferdinand had turned on Terry and asked why he was talking to him like that, things might have turned out different. there is a difference between being out of order and being completely odious. Im almost in agreement to some extent with Blatter, although I dont think he appreciates the scale of real racism in football, particularly in Europe.

I admit Im carrying a few pounds more than I should, but why should somebody insulting me on a personal level be trumped by other insults if delivered in the heat of the moment? I am in no way condoning racist chanting, far from it and I abhor racists as much as the next man, but I am amazed at the level of condemnation from all levels of media towards Luis Suarez because of a slip of the tongue!

If a player makes a rash tackle and potentially ends the career of a fellow player the FA will dole out a three match ban for the tackle. An eight match ban for a bloke having heated words seems ridiculous.

If Luis had called Evra 'a son of a terrorist whore', as former Blue-nose Marco Materazzi allegedly called Zidane, would his punishment (if any) have been less, (Materazzi was given a two match ban and a small fine). In other words are insults graded?

The FA havnt cited Luis for racism, unlike many tabloids, but he has been done for using language that contains a reference to Evras skin colour. Admittedly, thats not nice but presumably if he had insulted him for other reasons there would be no charge to answer. It appears that Evra, with his managers blessing, has gone running to the FA because he didnt have the balls to ask Suarez to knock the insults of at the time. After all, thats exactly what would happen in real life!

All the puritanical media and FA are doing is making it impossible for normal people to settle their differences without bringing external agencies into everyday arguments.

Racism is abhorant, lets make no bones about it, but if two blokes cant have a disagreement without one of them being accused by all and sundry of being a card carrying member of KKK then maybe things have gone too far.

Again, its not my intention to upset anyone, but if this is the FAs idea of fairness, then in my opinion, they have got it badly wrong.
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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5653 on: December 22, 2011, 02:08:08 pm »
@SMD :wellin

Offline B.Red

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5654 on: December 22, 2011, 02:08:52 pm »
He speaks Spanish.

Shall I just take your word for that then?

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5655 on: December 22, 2011, 02:09:06 pm »
Lawrenson's comments make me sick. It most definitely is 'us and them' now, they criticise how we choose to deal with our player(s) by issuing matter of fact statements that in turn pull the puppet strings in other fans and other self righteous (with no reason) journalists. They will continue to lambast us and we will continue to behave as we know how, and as we know is right. I've no problem with the anti racism lot, but I do question how they can criticise us yet are happy to sit back and let the media tell lies. How was our message 'wrong' when we are yet to hear an appeal to clear his name. It's all one massive witch hunt now, hopefully they can get his name cleared and we'll see how that affects the way he's dealt with, I'd suggest the media would be less than willing to retract all the sh*te they've written and would act as if it was some kind of injustice.

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5656 on: December 22, 2011, 02:09:19 pm »
Bed straight after the game last night, up early for work, not seen a paper heard any news and I put the TV on now...

These lot just lining up now to have their say and put the club and Suarez down.

At what point will any of the rent a quote fuckers even consider he is from another country, speaks another language and totally different culture and understand it is a very rare occurrence someone would use the word Suarez did. Seriously doing my head in and I'm not even a victim in all of this.

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Re: Brilliant Suarez article from goal.com
« Reply #5657 on: December 22, 2011, 02:09:52 pm »
Spot on mate. In an ideal world referring to the colour of someone's skin should be as neutral as the colour of their hair.

In the FA's ideal world we have this utopia;

if you come to this country all players have to abide by not just the laws of the game but the laws of the land as well. Referring to someone's skin colour has got to be offensive – it's self-evident. Gordon Taylor

Has it got to be offensive, the implication i'm reading from this statement are that people of different ethnicity can never refer to the others skin without it being an insult.

I'd like to see the law of the land which backs up this legal precedent - I find it extraordinary that the law is that all references to skin colour are racist by their nature.



A tricky post to answer. I think the key lies in whether the use of a reference to skin colour is part of an adjective or the noun. Calling some one a fat c*** presumably puts emphasis on them being a c***, does the same apply if one replaces fat with a description of someones colour? In my opinion, the adjective which precedes the noun is almost always there as a negative description and thus it is saying that there is something inherently negative that can be ascribed to the skin colour, the result is that it should never be used as it is racist.

I'd also argue that it is worse than calling someone fat because a person has control (most of the time) over their weight whereas they don't over their skin colour and therefore it is worse to hold it against them. When you insult someone for being fat there are a set of assumptions that go along side it - presumably that they are lazy as they haven't shed said pounds. If you insult someone for being of a certain colour you are saying that the colour inherently has a negative connotation because there is no trait which has led to them being that colour. Therefore you are arguing implicitly that the skin colour is self evidently a bad thing. So i'm inclined to say it is worse, but it is hard to quantify that difference


« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 02:37:19 pm by Garcepticon »

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5658 on: December 22, 2011, 02:10:18 pm »
Evra said Suarez used the word 10 times did he not?

Not proven. Evra's claims he did, so idiots with an agenda have taken it as fact.

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5659 on: December 22, 2011, 02:10:20 pm »
"If the customer was white would the first descriptive term out of your mouth be the colour of his skin?"

If the customer had a neon green shirt on, would you not say the customer in the green shirt. You would use a distinguishing characteristic... big nose, red hair, over 6 feet tall etc.
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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5660 on: December 22, 2011, 02:10:47 pm »
The problem for me is the PC brigade gone mad it's has very little to do with Racism and everything to do with a self appointed minority trying to find something that simply isn't there in attempt to take the moral highground.

I don't like the term 'PC brigade gone mad' because it reeks of the Daily Mail, even if there are instances in which something
occurs due to fear of giving offence, or in which subjects that need to be discussed are not for the same reason. We are a massively better society for being sensitive to issues of discrimination and offence unlike in the past.

What I'm saying is that these are peripheral to our defence of Luis and are anyway, not in our power to change.

Our defence should be focussed entirely on legal means and if nesseccary, robust defence of him through the release of carefully weighted statements through our website at tactical moments to add heat and pressure and make our case explicitly if we are being stitched up.

We should always keep in our mind the simple fact that by the nature of what we are dealing with, a defence of Luis is going to be construed by many as possibly condoning racial abuse. We have to disabuse that notion through sensitive handling of the case and through the strength of our legal argument and appeal. Discount the knee jerk of mancs and others - there are other people out there who genuinely feel that because of the nature of what has happened.

We need to box exceedingly clever here, because we are appealing in Luis's defence, against a grand narrative that has developed that he is guilty of a moment of racial abuse. We do that by accurately making the legal case against it, not by railing against PC gone mad. We are walking a tightrope here and we need to do so without being confrontational to anything but the case against Suarez in legalistic terms. We need to understand how this is being perceived in a wider narrative and be sensitive to that.


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Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5661 on: December 22, 2011, 02:12:51 pm »
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5662 on: December 22, 2011, 02:13:32 pm »
Dont be so picky, you know what i mean. See am i racist now because i even thought of saying a colour ?

Didn't say you were. Just find it interesting that when describing a black customer the initial response is the colour of his or her skin. Dont worry, I've done it myself. But, as I say, if the customer was white, I reckon its nailed on you wouldn't be using the colour of his or her skin to describe.

It's more a comment on society.

With regards to black and coloured I dont see the problem myself. I have friends that want to called black as oppossed to coloured but I find it bizarre as some have initmated that this is racist, to do so.
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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5663 on: December 22, 2011, 02:14:45 pm »
i think that the point our legal team is on, the point the LFC statement is on, the players statement is on and the fans are on is that this should not be a technical offence

the connotations are such that there must be intent to be racist before the charge is proved

i suspect that the judgment will indicate that objectively speaking the words were 'racist' to use the shorthand whereas our case must be that subjectively they must be spoken with racist intent

defending our player on that territory is fine, but the distinction appears to have escaped the hysterical media masses

Again - I think this needs clarification. Suarez HAS NOT been charged by the FA with being a racist or using racist words. The charge is, as I stated earlier:

Using "threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting" [Rule E3(1)] "including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability" [Rule E3(2)].

Absolutely no mention of racism. In fact I don't think 'racism' is driectly referred to anywhere in the FA rule-book.
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Offline montysmum

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5664 on: December 22, 2011, 02:15:41 pm »

It's f*cking unbearable on twitter / facebook / footy blog sites at the moment.  Every single f*cker who holds a grudge against liverpool has come crawling out of the woodwork to vent their spleen.  It's absolutely poisonous.  Understandably we've closed ranks and batoned down the hatches at the club, and that makes them even more venomous.  How dare we not hang our man out to dry?  How dare we say f*ck you to an establishment that at best tolerates us.  These people see it as their chance to take the scousers down a peg or two, and the fact that we're not bending over f*cks them off even more.   

Agree with you, it is poisonous at the moment.  I am sick to death of the sanctimonious twoddle being spouted on the tv and radio by people who just can't wait to label Suarez a racist and the club as encouraging him in that behaviour by supporting him.

Suarez and the club are being vilified by people who just can't wait to jump on the bandwagon.  I am sick to death of seeing representatives of the PFA, anti-racist organisations, media commentators etc all going on about how bad racism is and how it shouldn't be condoned, and using the Suarez case to back this view up.

I am deeply proud of Kenny, the player and the club for how they have behaved over this.

As for the FA, I have only disgust.  They had the option to make a stand and use common sense over this.  They could have given him credit for admitting using an offensive word when he could quite easily have denied it as no one else heard anything.  Ironically, if Suarez hadn't been so honest and open about it none of this would be happening probably!

They could have quite easily told Suarez that the words he used, while acceptable in his own culture and country are not viewed that way here, given him a warning and a fine and there would be none of the hatred going on at the moment. 

Instead they decided to 'make a stand' to show the world how it should be done, to slap Blatter in the mush over his 'shake hands' comment, and in doing so they have caused an international outcry and a young player to be forever labelled a racist.

I am totally pissed off and angry with all of them.





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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5665 on: December 22, 2011, 02:17:09 pm »
Not proven. Evra's claims he did, so idiots with an agenda have taken it as fact.

So Evra did say it then, which was the question id asked.



From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5666 on: December 22, 2011, 02:17:27 pm »
My understanding is that as far as the Club are concerned the abusive comments and the reference to colour were in separate conversations. The two players were abusive to each other and then when they had been spoken to by the Ref Suarez made the calm down comment that had the reference to colour in it. 

Suarez offered an olive branch gave Evra a friendly pat on the head and moved on but Evra took offence.

So possibly, the word was used in a context completely different from the one mentioned in the statement the club released immediately after the verdict in which we mention the Kop end goalmouth incidence.

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5667 on: December 22, 2011, 02:17:55 pm »
Again - I think this needs clarification. Suarez HAS NOT been charged by the FA with being a racist or using racist words. The charge is, as I stated earlier:

Using "threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting" [Rule E3(1)] "including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability" [Rule E3(2)].

Absolutely no mention of racism. In fact I don't think 'racism' is driectly referred to anywhere in the FA rule-book.

That's the problem, it's all semantics. If you are going to say "you insulted him , making particular reference to his skin color" then you are implying Racism.

How else do you define racism?

Offline PhilV

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5668 on: December 22, 2011, 02:18:55 pm »
SMD  :wellin :thumbup what a post!

Offline Aaronb121

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5669 on: December 22, 2011, 02:19:01 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5PA6lah_kY (United fans chanting racist b*****d last night)

Disgusting behaviour, doubt anything will be done about it though.

Offline B.Red

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5670 on: December 22, 2011, 02:20:01 pm »
Again - I think this needs clarification. Suarez HAS NOT been charged by the FA with being a racist or using racist words. The charge is, as I stated earlier:

Using "threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting" [Rule E3(1)] "including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability" [Rule E3(2)].

Absolutely no mention of racism. In fact I don't think 'racism' is driectly referred to anywhere in the FA rule-book.

Because racism is too complex for a rulebook to define. It's implied however that insulting language with a reference to someone's skin colour etc is racist. Legal language will always try to stear clear of using complex terms whereas the papers will go gungho and fuck the consequences.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Brilliant Suarez article from goal.com
« Reply #5671 on: December 22, 2011, 02:20:26 pm »
Its been a couple of days now since the FA announced the ban and I still havnt calmed down. I feel that I have to get my current feelings on paper, although I know I must be careful not to upset anybody.

Here goes.

Racism laws were introduced to give predominately black and Asian people in Britain the same rights as the indiginous population. Those laws were needed and were rightly introduced. Nobody should be prevented from education, work, promotion or many other activities based on skin colour. Those laws also covered the treatment of minorities and the possibility of incitement of hatred towards them. Again quite right and apt.

 But what seems to have happened is that the laws have been taken to extremes and we now see children in playground spats being branded racist for calling their mates names! We see footballers being castigated for what in reality is a paga between two grown men. Despite the language used, things are often said in the heat of an argument. It would be a saintly person indeed who cant recount saying something to someone then immediately regretting it.

I dislike John Terry with a passion, but maybe, when he was first aware of an alleged racist comment,  Anton Ferdinand had turned on Terry and asked why he was talking to him like that, things might have turned out different. there is a difference between being out of order and being completely odious. Im almost in agreement to some extent with Blatter, although I dont think he appreciates the scale of real racism in football, particularly in Europe.

I admit Im carrying a few pounds more than I should, but why should somebody insulting me on a personal level be trumped by other insults if delivered in the heat of the moment? I am in no way condoning racist chanting, far from it and I abhor racists as much as the next man, but I am amazed at the level of condemnation from all levels of media towards Luis Suarez because of a slip of the tongue!

If a player makes a rash tackle and potentially ends the career of a fellow player the FA will dole out a three match ban for the tackle. An eight match ban for a bloke having heated words seems ridiculous.

If Luis had called Evra 'a son of a terrorist whore', as former Blue-nose Marco Materazzi allegedly called Zidane, would his punishment (if any) have been less, (Materazzi was given a two match ban and a small fine). In other words are insults graded?

The FA havnt cited Luis for racism, unlike many tabloids, but he has been done for using language that contains a reference to Evras skin colour. Admittedly, thats not nice but presumably if he had insulted him for other reasons there would be no charge to answer. It appears that Evra, with his managers blessing, has gone running to the FA because he didnt have the balls to ask Suarez to knock the insults of at the time. After all, thats exactly what would happen in real life!

All the puritanical media and FA are doing is making it impossible for normal people to settle their differences without bringing external agencies into everyday arguments.

Racism is abhorant, lets make no bones about it, but if two blokes cant have a disagreement without one of them being accused by all and sundry of being a card carrying member of KKK then maybe things have gone too far.

Again, its not my intention to upset anyone, but if this is the FAs idea of fairness, then in my opinion, they have got it badly wrong.

I too have been waiting for myself to calm down, you have posted exactly how i feel, thank you. the world is going mad
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Offline barneystuta

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5672 on: December 22, 2011, 02:22:29 pm »
There's something a lot of people aren't really picking up on. Racism isn't simply just a case of saying things like (and I beg your pardon in advance, I'm merely using these terms as example) n*gger, p*ki, desert rat, k*ke, etc. It's perfectly possible to be racist without using explicit language.

In 2003, the day war was declared on Iraq I decided to carry one of the placards that were used in the protests in London against the prospect of going to war. It was one of the official 'Stop the War' ones, so not something I made myself. All I did was carry it around. I took it with me to school and displayed it prominently in the car and carried it around the school campus. My school had a large cadet movement and quite a few teachers were members of the TA who faced the prospect of being called up. Needless to say, it was a massive talking point and I was well aware that I would be drawing attention to myself but I did it anyway. Many teachers commented in class or in private to me that they either agreed or disagreed with my point of view but respected the way I protested.

Except one teacher who stopped me in the hallway and asked me what passport I had. I'd never been taught by this particular teacher so I was confused that she'd ask such a blunt question without introducing herself or even asking me why I was protesting. I asked her why she wanted to know and why it was important and after going around in circles, she conceded that she was interested in my insight. I explained that I was British but my roots were from Iraq. She seemed satisfied by this answer and walked away.

The next day, I was telling a mate about this and told him it was really confusing. He said that he'd been in her class that afternoon and she asked them if anyone was friends with me or knew me. Then she started asking them if I was British and then wondered if I "paid any taxes" and then concluded that my family and I "must have enjoyed the benefits of the education and health systems."

Now, forget the details for the time being. For someone, anyone at all, to say that about me and my family is utterly disgraceful and at best xenophobic and at worst horribly racist. I was absolutely appalled and shaken and the only thing I could think of doing was calling my dad. Who incidentally worked in the public sector the entire time he was in this country (so directly giving something back to the country) as well as sending me to a private school (albeit on a large scholarship, otherwise there was no way we could afford it). So our 'burden' on the state was much lower than average, not to mention directly contributing to this daft cow's pay.

Needless to say, my dad went nuclear and was on the phone to the school, solicitors, you name it. Official statements were taken and the best the school could offer was that she 'didn't recall' what she said and she apologised for any distress caused. She didn't even have the guts to say this to my face, let alone in public similar to the initial comments to the class I wasn't even in.
Given the school's weak stance, I ended up simply leaving the week after.

She didn't call me a sand n*gger, she didn't even say anything to my face. Basically, she just regurgitated the sort of crap you read in the Daily Express or Mail in front of other people. I doubt you'll find anyone who will defend her actions, though, at the very least in airing political views in school. I found it incredibly insulting.

What does this have to do with the Suarez issue? In my opinion, this dilutes the issue of racism in such a way that can only harm the fight against prejudice and ignorance. I said when the allegations first surfaced that I couldn't believe Luis was racist but if he was, I wouldn't want him at the club a day longer. When I heard he said the word 'negrito', rather than immediately jump to conclusions I waited for the club's reaction and for a more informed explanation of the connotations of that term.
In fact, the whole issue has just made Evra look much worse. Saying 'get your hands off me, you South American' is far worse in my eyes than calling someone 'negrito'. The connotations of Evra's statement suggests that 'South American' is a derogatory term, much like that teacher implying that my family had no place in the country and that we offered nothing to society, are far more serious than Suarez calling him negrito. In fact, if Evra was communicating with him in Spanish, would that not suggest that Evra was well aware of the nuances of Spanish-speaking cultures? Particularly with Hernandez at the club who has shown since 2007 that he uses that term as well.
I wish that we lived in a society here that didn't give two shits about someone's skin colour or ethnicity. I don't label myself as anything other than British because what else am I? I was raised here and my mother tongue is English. Sure, I have a different background and I'm not ashamed of it. But why am I different to any other Brits because of where my parents or grandparents were from? Is coming down hard on Suarez for using the word 'negrito' going to bring us closer to that? I doubt it. But I can tell you that letting Evra's words slide is more damaging.

Racism comes in many shapes or forms, to different degrees. You could argue the toss about the place of 'negrito' in British society all you like but there's absolutely no call for saying something like 'get your hands off me, you South American.' And right now, there's only one person who has admitted to saying something in anger and it wasn't Luis Suarez.

Brilliant post. Everyone should read it.

Offline redannie

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5673 on: December 22, 2011, 02:23:32 pm »

With regards to black and coloured I dont see the problem myself. I have friends that want to called black as oppossed to coloured but I find it bizarre as some have initmated that this is racist, to do so.


The word coloured is seen as racist because of its use in the American South and Apartheid S Africa when 'coloureds' had separate washrooms, seats in restaurants and on buses etc. People of colour is a more acceptable description now

Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Brilliant Suarez article from goal.com
« Reply #5674 on: December 22, 2011, 02:24:14 pm »
Well we're not all perfect, you'll get there someday champ *condescending pat on the back*

Nods sympathetically, knowing that we all cant be from Cork, sure god love ya.... ;)
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline ArcticRed

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5675 on: December 22, 2011, 02:24:32 pm »
That's the problem, it's all semantics. If you are going to say "you insulted him , making particular reference to his skin color" then you are implying Racism.

How else do you define racism?
is that a serious question?
Have a gander at SMD's post a page back.

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Re: Brilliant Suarez article from goal.com
« Reply #5676 on: December 22, 2011, 02:25:32 pm »
The word in question, negro, understandably appears ugly and bigoted when laid down on paper in English. As demonstrated by the anecdote at the start of this article, however, in Uruguay as in Argentina and much of Latin America it is considered a neutral, even familiar term. Friends, sons, daughters, parents are addressed with the phrase, or its diminutive negrito/a, whether they are from African, mixed-race or even European descent with blue hair and blonde eyes.

Eh?

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5677 on: December 22, 2011, 02:25:34 pm »
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Offline Stussy

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5678 on: December 22, 2011, 02:25:55 pm »
Again - I think this needs clarification. Suarez HAS NOT been charged by the FA with being a racist or using racist words. The charge is, as I stated earlier:

Using "threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting" [Rule E3(1)] "including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability" [Rule E3(2)].

Absolutely no mention of racism. In fact I don't think 'racism' is driectly referred to anywhere in the FA rule-book.

This is true, and I think it is at this point that Luis has a right to feel aggrieved, because despite what the FA have said, this really is being perceived as smiting a racist, that is how the majority of people look at it, its how (seemingly) the whole British media are playing it, and its how the FA are harvesting the kudos for having taken a hard line against racism.

That is why this is so frustrating.
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Offline zebenzui

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Re: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)
« Reply #5679 on: December 22, 2011, 02:27:23 pm »
Didn't say you were. Just find it interesting that when describing a black customer the initial response is the colour of his or her skin. Dont worry, I've done it myself. But, as I say, if the customer was white, I reckon its nailed on you wouldn't be using the colour of his or her skin to describe.

I would if it was the most distinguishing feature, i.e he was the only white person in the vicinity and therefore easily identifiable by that trait.