Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[Smudgester]

If he did admit to hearing it he would have, perhaps, been worse off - the panel would have thought that he was using the term (whatever he said) in retaliation. No?

And we all know that in football it's the retaliator that gets punished and never the instigator.

[BCCC]

What do you want him to do lie? (like Manchester United staff have been found to do, previously concerning racist accusations involving Evra).
If he hasnt heard Evra insulting him, it makes sense to me that he sees, like we all did, Evra running round shouting and wailing and making a general knob of himself. You can see Luis laughing at him. Which is were;
'Calm down, mate', (in Spanish). comes in, imo. (Fuck knows where Evra gets the 'at least 10 times' bit from. Luis says once.

I gave up counting the number of assumptions made in that statement. Let's wait for the written report.

[Lenin.]

There hasn't been any apologies.

What's your point? That because Evra hasn't apologised for something he has allegedly said (though it caused no offence), that our man shouldn't apologise for accidentally causing racial offence?

You were the one who said Luis should apologise.
Evra hasnt 'alledgedly' insulted Luis. He has admitted doing so.
Luis hasnt admitted causing racial offence.

[BCCC]

And we all know that in football it's the retaliator that gets punished and never the instigator.

That's an interesting and relevant point and possibly why LFC worded its statement so strongly.

[Kidspen]

If he did admit to hearing it he would have, perhaps, been worse off - the panel would have thought that he was using the term (whatever he said) in retaliation. No?

Could explain why in the Club statement it said Suarez told panel he didn't hear it, to his credit.
There would be no credit if he didn't hear it.

[Smudgester]

Nobody knew Evra had insulted Luis Suarez until he incriminated himself in his statement. He could and should be punished for it but it has no bearing on what Luis said or did.

I'll give you FA double standards but I can't see how it would have an effect on the outcome with Luis.

Provocation perhaps ? In any other type of tribunal/case/hearing, provocation is taken into account. You would hope that an FA hearing is no different.

[vivabobbygraham]

Actually Mirra your post is very enlightening as its thought process seems to hail from pretty much the same place as much of the UK medias - ie that no matter how you wrap it up the term 'negro' or 'negrito' simply has to be intrinsically racist because it's a blatant reference to colour [in this case of the skin of an odious little runt].

The point is none of us - or Liverpool Football Club's lawyers, players, manager etc - are saying for one minute that the term negro in either its English noun idiom or in its direct adjective translation from Spanish is not related to a black person or the colour black.

What is being maintained - not dressed up - is the fact that the term "Porque negro/negrito" on the streets of Uruguay has evolved a usage that has departed for some considerable time from its literal translation to mean something entirely different. It actually means a variety of things dependent upon context and expression. In this particular incident - as Evra in his typical venomous snarling manner brushed aside Suarez's attempts [in admittedly possibly patronising manner] to let it lie with a withering insult snapped in Spanish - it is likely Suarez's own 'Porque, Negro/negrita' was our equivalent of 'what the fuck's up with you pal?'

What we are all now pretty convinced about - courtesy of witnessing Evra's petulance live, the invaluable contribution of native Uruguyans regarding the street language meaning of the negro/negrito Uruguyan vocabulary and the utter shellshocked response of the club to the guilty verdict - is that there was no racial connotation whatsoever in Suarez's response. Not so much as a flicker. And apparently, too, very minimal if any insulting behaviour. The same would seem most definitely not be the case with the little venomous clat tale twat Evra.

Clearly when genuine Liverpool fans such as your goodself - and others too - are still sceptical of what seem to be the quite innocent facts of the matter [far from innocent in the case of Evra i might add] then it is hardly surprising that there remains such an uphill struggle yet to be encountered to ultimately prove Suarez's innocence and ram the heinous injustice right back up the jaxi of all the odious twats who have jumped so effortlessly onto the racist witch hunt bandwagon.

I don't really like to use the analogy but it really does remind me of the awful struggle it was to convince fellow Liverpudlians of our supporter's innocence in the immediate aftermath of Hillsborough when all the media - bar the Liverpoool Echo - went into overdrive in their craving to pin the blame for the disaster on drunken, late, ticketless scouse thugs. The letters I wrote back then fell on so many deaf ears too.

Excellent post Timbo

[Dr Stop]

You were the one who said Luis should apologise.
Evra hasnt 'alledgedly' insulted Luis. He has admitted doing so.
Luis hasnt admitted causing racial offence.

I think it would all have been a lot easier if Luis had apologised at the start. If you accidentally offend someone, that's the normal thing to do (ala Hansen).

As I said earlier, I once accidentally offended a Japanese girl by using the word 'oriental'. I apologised and explained I was unaware it was offensive, it seemed the right thing to do even though I had been guilty of nothing more than ignorance.

[Clayton Bigsby]

I thought Mirra was a dude

[BCCC]

You were the one who said Luis should apologise.
Evra hasnt 'alledgedly' insulted Luis. He has admitted doing so.
Luis hasnt admitted causing racial offence.

Unfortunately Luis can't decide whether he caused offence even though it wasn't intended. Evra took offence and therefore it was investigated.

The problem is Evra with the full backing of Ferguson (who in my opinion knew exactly what was going to happen cause he's a malicious twat) decided to escalate the issue rather than do the obvious thing and ask Luis what he meant and thus giving him the opportunity to apologise.

[koppitekop11]

I think it would all have been a lot easier if Luis had apologised at the start. If you accidentally offend someone that's the normal thing to do (ala Hansen).

As I said earlier, I once accidentally offended a Japanese girl by using the word 'oriental'. I apologised and explained I was unaware it was offensive, it seemed the right thing to do even though I had been guilty of nothing more than ignorance.

They were speaking in Spanish FFS!

If they were speaking in English then yes, you could maybe blame ignorance, but if Evra is going to start a conversation in Spanish then he must accept what Suarez said in the context of his mother tongue.

Luis has absolutely nothing to apologise for.

[Timbo's Goals]

I thought Mirra was a dude

Corrected. My mistake.

 

[BCCC]

Provocation perhaps ? In any other type of tribunal/case/hearing, provocation is taken into account. You would hope that an FA hearing is no different.

Maybe but that will or won't come out of the written decision.

[Timbo's Goals]

I thought Mirra was a dude

So does Mirra it seems.

 

[**** The Pain Away.]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16325493.stm

Mr. Ferguson feels ban for Luis Suarez was right

Mr. Ferguson believes the Football Association made "the right decision" in banning Luis Suarez for eight games after he racially abused Patrice Evra.

Forward Suarez was also handed a £40,000 fine after he used "insulting words in reference to Manchester United defender Evra's colour".

Liverpool criticised the FA's verdict in a strongly worded statement.

But United boss Ferguson said: "We're satisfied they [the FA's independent commission] made the right decision."

Liverpool claimed Evra should also face charges after he admitted insulting Suarez during the altercation at Anfield in October.

Ferguson, speaking about Suarez's for the first time, added: "Our support of Patrice was obvious right from the word go and that's still the same.

SELECTED FOOTBALL BANS
1964: David Layne, Peter Swan and Tony Kay (life bans for betting on their team to lose, later reduced to 7 years)
1988: Paul Davis (9 matches for punching opponent)
1995: Eric Cantona (9 months for attacking supporter)
1998: Paolo di Canio (11 matches for pushing referee)
2003: Mark Bosnich (9 months for failed drugs test)
2003: Rio Ferdinand (8 months for failing to take drugs test)
2005: David Prutton (10 matches for pushing referee)

"This wasn't about Manchester United and Liverpool. It was nothing to do with that. This was an individual situation where one person was racially abused."

The Scot also referred to the way United reacted when Evra received a four-match suspension in 2008.

That punishment was meted out after the Frenchman became embroiled in a post-match altercation with a Chelsea groundsman after United won a Premier League match at Stamford Bridge.

"Patrice got that suspension for the incident down at Chelsea when no one was there, just a groundsman and our fitness coach," said Ferguson.

"He got a four-match ban and we had to wait two weeks for the evidence to come through. We were quite astounded at that. A four-match ban?

"We thought it was well over the top for a trivial incident. But it happened and there's nothing you can do about it, you know."

Liverpool are waiting for the commission to deliver its full written findings before deciding whether to appeal.

That is not expected until after Christmas but, once it does arrive the club will have 14 days to consider their response, otherwise the suspension will begin at the end of that fortnight.

[joey55]

I think it largelly depends if they were having an angry exhange at the time he used the word negrito. If they were bating each other, then even if negrito is an affectionate term in South America, Suarez must know it isn't in this country, otherwise he wouldn't have used it. You don't call someone a name in an affectionate way during argument. If they were arguing and Suarez called Evra by a name in refferance to his skin colour, then he's guilty. If that is the case than Liverpool the club and the fans have a real problem on their hands following the last few days.

[Camarero25]

Only just read this, but that's a brilliant post, should be mandatory reading for everyone who claims "ignorance is no excuse"".

[smicer07]

I think it largelly depends if they were having an angry exhange at the time he used the word negrito. If they were bating each other, then even if negrito is an affectionate term in South America, Suarez must know it isn't in this country, otherwise he wouldn't have used it. You don't call someone a name in an affectionate way during argument. If they were arguing and Suarez called Evra by a name in refferance to his skin colour, then he's guilty. If that is the case than Liverpool the club and the fans have a real problem on their hands following the last few days.

The point is that "Negrito" doesn't mean ANYTHING in this country.

[Met]

So does Mirra it seems.

 

Fantastic post btw. As someone already mentioned, should be mandatory reading.

[marcus50bucks]

I thought Mirra was a dude

So did I.lol

[Lenin.]

I think it would all have been a lot easier if Luis had apologised at the start. If you accidentally offend someone, that's the normal thing to do (ala Hansen).

As I said earlier, I once accidentally offended a Japanese girl by using the word 'oriental'. I apologised and explained I was unaware it was offensive, it seemed the right thing to do even though I had been guilty of nothing more than ignorance.

Why didnt Evra apologise? He didnt accidently insult Luis. He meant it.

Unfortunately Luis can't decide whether he caused offence even though it wasn't intended. Evra took offence and therefore it was investigated.

The problem is Evra with the full backing of Ferguson (who in my opinion knew exactly what was going to happen cause he's a malicious twat) decided to escalate the issue rather than do the obvious thing and ask Luis what he meant and thus giving him the opportunity to apologise.

When was he supposed to apologise?

[harleydanger]

Maybe he couldnt understand what the prick was babbling on about. Maybe Evra's spanish is shite?
It doesnt matter. Evra has admitted to  abusing Suarez. (I dont believe he will have admitted to a racial slur, probably about Luis's mother or sister). So where is the apology?

`

Pretty sure the current train of thought was he called him sudaka, which is akin to paki, in that it's a pejorative term shortened from something longer. Sudamericano.

[lfcjake]

Dunno if it's been posted, but #ISupportLuisSuarez is trending on twitter

Worldwide too.

[Lenin.]

I think it largelly depends if they were having an angry exhange at the time he used the word negrito. If they were bating each other, then even if negrito is an affectionate term in South America, Suarez must know it isn't in this country, otherwise he wouldn't have used it. You don't call someone a name in an affectionate way during argument. If they were arguing and Suarez called Evra by a name in refferance to his skin colour, then he's guilty. If that is the case than Liverpool the club and the fans have a real problem on their hands following the last few days.

Where is this angry exchange?

[WelshMike]

The point is that "Negrito" doesn't mean ANYTHING in this country.

Exactly. I wish people would stop trying to equate it to an English word/term, or saying that 'negrito means "x" in this country' as there is no literal translation. That's why you have to take account for the fact that they were probably speaking Spanish and that it's an inoffensive South American term. Something which the fuckwits at the FA, on the 'independent' panel or at Man Utd don't seem to have the slightest bit of understanding about.

[KennyDaggers]

So is Mirra male or female? I always presumed because of his/hers excellent boxing knowledge Mirra must of been a male.(sexist I know)

I also think Mirra makes some excellent points in this thread.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Evra didnt accidently offend Suarez.
 
 We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms.  Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.

I dont know if there were racial connotations. Why hasnt he, at any time, issued an apology, as your'e suggesting Luis shoukld have done?

anton ferdinand didnt hear terry's supposed insult did he?

[Lenin.]

`

Pretty sure the current train of thought was he called him sudaka, which is akin to paki, in that it's a pejorative term shortened from something longer. Sudamericano.

There is no evidence of that though, currently.

[harleydanger]

The point is that "Negrito" doesn't mean ANYTHING in this country.

Country irrelevant. Language relevant.

So far we've got a bunch of white haired public school boys who've somehow stumbled through life onto a panel at the FA telling Spanish speakers what their own language means.

[Timbo's Goals]

Excellent post Timbo

Ta VBG - absolutely awful this isn't it mate. A stitch up followed by a witch hunt. Thankfully unlike Hillsborough the truth will surely emerge sooner rather than later. We await to see how the obscene British media will deal with it when it does come out. It will be fascinating but I won't be holding my breath for proper justice. They all but ignored Lord Justic Taylor's findings and did nowt to alter public perception.

[KennyDaggers]

Exactly. I wish people would stop trying to equate it to an English word/term, or saying that 'negrito means "x" in this country' as there is no literal translation. That's why you have to take account for the fact that they were probably speaking Spanish and that it's an inoffensive South American term. Something which the fuckwits at the FA, on the 'independent' panel or at Man Utd don't seem to have the slightest bit of understanding about.

According to Briane Reade and today's Echo it seems the word used has actually been 'Negro'.

[smicer07]

According to Briane Reade and today's Echo it seems the word used has actually been 'Negro'.

I don't think anyone really knows, hence the disgraceful fact that the FA haven't released the "evidence" and the QC is now on his jollies.

[Loco74]

Some good questions from twatter, i haven't heard about the QC's holiday, anyone else???

1. Why does the FA seemingly have no procedure to ensure absolute privacy & confidentiality for reporting & resolving sensitive incidents?

2. In the absence of any procedure, why has there been no public request from the FA to ask for media restraint to ensure a fair hearing?

3. Did all interviewees have recourse to the same video evidence before finalising their statements?

4. Have all documented incidents that happened during the match been investigated according to the FA's own disciplinary procedures?

5. Why did it take the FA over 1 month to decide there was a case to answer and charge Suarez?

6. Why did the FA finally choose to announce the charge within 2 hours of the Sepp Blatter "racism/handshake" gaffe?

7. On what basis do the FA think it is fair and reasonable to announce the verdict without the full written judgement and rationale?

8. After announcing verdict why did FA statement not request responsible media reporting until judgement was available?

9. If it's true that the QC leading hearing had planned vacation why wasn't verdict or whole hearing delayed until his return?

10. Why is there no basic scale of penalties for FA rule E3 (1) aligned to other FA penalties such as "serious foul play"?

[Red number seven]

I think it would all have been a lot easier if Luis had apologised at the start. If you accidentally offend someone, that's the normal thing to do (ala Hansen).

So you go along with Sepp, then? ;-)
I kind of agree with that, actually, and have said before that an interpreted PFA arbitration would've been a really good approach to this, but several things confound this assessment.

The first is that Evra did not apparently complain via the normal, appropriate channels. Had he told the ref what Luis had said, Luis told the ref what Evra had said, the ref arbitrate, one or both apologise and move on, that would've sorted it. If the ref judged what had happened as heinous he would've included it in his match report. If he didn't either player would still have right of report to the FA or to the PFA. He could've even gone and told Ferguson, who could've spoke to Dalglish, who could've brought the players togethr. Evra chose French National TV to announce that Suarez had racially abused him, thereby starting an international incident and ensuring every man and his dog had an opinion before a word of evidence had been heard, and mostly that was that Suarez is racist, which is a massive slur against a decent guy whose deeds in life far outweigh any words he may have casually said.

The second is that The PFA (according to Gordon Taylor) offered to arbitrate and were told not to. By whom?  My guess is the FA as noone else would have the authority to stop them, unless either Evra or Suarez refused, which seems unlikely. Why? Did they want a show trial to prove how anti-racist they were, but then got the shock of their life when their own captain got caught up in it.

Finally, increasingly likely speculation that Evra insulted Suarez with the "Sudaco" comment. If that is true, then why would Suarez apologise for a accidental racial offence when he perceives that someone has racially abused him?

[Camarero25]

Don't get all these people saying he shouldn't have referred to Evra's colour, no matter the context. The point Liverpool seem to be arguing is that negro/negrito has no racial connotations in Suarez's culture, it simply means "mate". The word is also used when referring to white people, therefore how can it be a reference to race?

[BobbyDavro]

191 pages and going strong!

I'm still not clear on what my view is.

Evra is such a horrible little twat it's hard to have any point of view that doesn't come down squarely against him.
I get the language difference totally.
I want to support Suarez, and like everyone else, I'm sure he's not a racist.

But...but...he's not stupid, and he must know that there are different meanings to be interpreted from it.
Having realised that Evra was blabbing to the press about it, his response should have been "where I come from it's not an offensive word, and I didn't mean it in an offensive way and I'm sorry if any offence was taken".
Problem solved two months ago. 
Instead this has all been hush hush, we didn't even know what had been said for weeks, and now at the end of another bit of hush hush with the panel we get the very very worst possible outcome for us.
We've not played this smart at all.
Irrespective of whether offence was meant (and don't tell me in the heat of the game that NO offence was possibly intended - because that doesn't wash either), the right thing to do is apologise and move on....and if he'd done that as soon as it blew up we would squarely be on the moral high-ground.
Instead - as fucking usual - us trying to convince the world that what we're saying is right.

[Eeyore]

According to Briane Reade and today's Echo it seems the word used has actually been 'Negro'.

So Hansen is being criticised for using the term Coloured instead of Black and Suarez is being criticised for the using the direct Spanish translation of the word to the one Hansen should of used.

I get it now.

[Timbo's Goals]

I also think Mirra makes some excellent points in this thread.

I'm awaiting his take on the English/Uruguyan interpretation.

[Smudgester]

Unfortunately Luis can't decide whether he caused offence even though it wasn't intended. Evra took offence and therefore it was investigated.

And the way the justice system works in country, you can't punish the 'speaker' just because the 'hearer' found it offensive. You can only punish the 'speaker' if they knew it was offensive or meant it to be offensive.  If it was the former, the courts would be full of nutjobs claiming even the most normal thing was offensive to them.

According to Briane Reade and today's Echo it seems the word used has actually been 'Negro'.

I don't think anybody knows to be honest - other than the people at the hearing. When this whole thing started, the media were saying it was definitely "negrito" and then, a cynic would say suspiciously, about 1 week before the hearing started the Guardian (I think) stated the word used was "negro" and it seems to have stuck as in the media ever since.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

So is Mirra male or female? I always presumed because of his/hers excellent boxing knowledge Mirra must of been a male.(sexist I know)

I also think Mirra makes some excellent points in this thread.

He a massive man mountain of a man. A giant i tell thee.