Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[BCCC]

It's quite funny how people keep forgetting that Suarez himself is from a MULTIRACIAL background!!! Fucking hell, he grandfather is BLACK!

My next door neighbour is Asian, a lovely lady. She and her family fled to the UK from Uganda under the Amin regime so I'm not sure where exactly you are coming from?

[Smudgester]

He may not be racist Suarez, but If I called any of the black lads I know "Negrito" or whatever while having a argument with them or in any conversation to be honest id expect it to kick off. You dont say things like that, I was married to a black woman and 3 of my kids are mixed race and if anyone called any of them anything like that id put them in hospital, friendly or not. Its not on. Before any of the internet warriors in here kick off with me or whatever, dont bother. Im entitled to an opinion even if it isnt the same as yours.

You are - but are you Spanish ? Is Spanish your first language ? If not and you, and all your black mates, are English why would you use the word "negrito" in conversation ? It doesn't exist in the English language - you won't find it in the dictionary. If you, and your black mates, were Spanish then they wouldn't bat an eyelid if you used "negrito".

What seems to have happened, though I can't believe a QC has't spotted this straight away, is that a conversation has taken place in one language and then one of the participants has tried to twist the conversation into what sounds like it a nasty English one. It's called a false cognate - "negrito" in Spanish does not mean "negro" in English in the same way that "molestar" in Spanish does not mean "molester" in English.

But until the documents come out (eventually !!!) we'll never know. Just like most people who have seen LFC's statement still don't know why Evra hasn't been charged with breaking ES(1) seeing as he admitted it under oath at the hearing.

[Timbo's Goals]

he does supposedly speak spanish but certain but if you learnt your spanish in spain then negrito/negro don't quite have the same friendly meaning as they do in uraguay.

The crucial point here is that if true - ie that Evra began the 'dialogue' in Spanish - then the interpretations have to be viewed in their correct idiom. Thus Suarez's use of Porque negro/negrito would have tripped off his tongue instinctively. hence no racial undertow whatsoever merely what the fuck you on about you odious little Reptilain fuckin vermin piece of shit.

Sorry.

 

[Eeyore]

Non of them were called it in an argument though were they? Id be uncomfortable calling any of them players Negroe or whatever, I dont think its a word that should be used but thats me.

Id like to ask you though, if this was Hernandez of Man Utd accused of this with say Glen Johnson, would you be so supportive of the "context" and the culture and all that?

Hernandez has actually used the word and no one batted an eyelid Dani Pacheco has used the word and no one has batted an eyelid. It doesn't matter who uses the word because in Spanish it simply doesn't have the meaning that the people looking for Racism want it to have.

Phil Vickery was asked on the World Football phone in lat night on five live last night if Suarez would be able to get off with the charge if he used the term in South America. Vickery was very clear Suarez wouldn't get off with it because quite simply there would be no case to answer to.

It is an everyday virtually wholly affectionate word used in vast swathes of the Spanish Speaking World. It is something you call your girlfriend/boyfriend or mother as a term of endearment.

[redrockydennis]

Did the FA have anyone who can speak colloquial Spanish or spanish dialect or any Spanish on the panel?

[Jay797]

He used 'that word' because it holds no racial connotations in his native tongue. He used 'that word' because he was speaking in his native tongue to another individual who had chosen to speak to him in that tongue.

It is up to YOU to prove that what he said was "Inappropriate". I suggest you do it right here and now as well.

Tell me, in Uruguay what the meanings of "Negro" and "Negrito" mean?

I'm assuming for you to have reached this 'judgement' that you've read up on all of this (I know I have, including speaking to my mum who is entirely fluent in Spanish and speaking to friends that hail from South America).


So. Come out with it - why was a Spanish speaking person, speaking Spanish and coming out with a word in a Spanish conversation, initiated by another Spanish speaker using 'inappropriate language"?

Well said....AGAIN.

[BCCC]

The crucial point here is that if true - ie that Evra began the 'dialogue' in Spanish - then the interpretations have to be viewed in their correct idiom. Thus Suarez's use of Porque negro/negrito would have tripped off his tongue instinctively. hence no racial undertow whatsoever merely what the fuck you on about you odious little Reptilain fuckin vermin piece of shit.

Sorry.

 

As a keeper of reptiles I find that more than mildly offensive :-).

[Lenin.]

If Evra accidentally (or deliberately) offended Suarez by any racial connotations of words he used then he should obviously apologise too.

Evra didnt accidently offend Suarez.
 
 We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms.  Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.

I dont know if there were racial connotations. Why hasnt he, at any time, issued an apology, as your'e suggesting Luis shoukld have done?

[Timbo's Goals]

Did the FA have anyone who can speak colloquial Spanish or spanish dialect or any Spanish on the panel?

No but they had one of the dirtiest centre halfs I 've ever seen.

 

[BCCC]

Evra didnt accidently offend Suarez.
 
 We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms.  Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.

I dont know if there were racial connotations. Why hasnt he, at any time, issued an apology, as your'e suggesting Luis shoukld have done?

Its a bit difficult to take offence at something you didn't hear nor would that then have had an impact on anything Luis did or didn't say.

[callanlfc5times]

Did the FA have anyone who can speak colloquial Spanish or spanish dialect or any Spanish on the panel?

No chance, this is a organisation who have only just a couple of days ago employed a female as a non-executive director.

[Timbo's Goals]

As a keeper of reptiles I find that more than mildly offensive :-).

Fuck me, you can't get away with insulting anything these days!

Mind you I guess it was a bit much likening a poor harmless reptile to that odious twat

 

[Geezer08]

As there are supporters from all over the world on this forum could i ask as how this case is being reported from overseas

Here in DK not much have been reported, the judgement was reported on Wednesday other than that its only stories and reactions related to the judgement(Most against Suarez, reactions from Mr Alex Ferguson and some c*nt who wanted Suarez behind bars). But there hasnt been any debate about this.

[Eeyore]

The crucial point here is that if true - ie that Evra began the 'dialogue' in Spanish - then the interpretations have to be viewed in their correct idiom. Thus Suarez's use of Porque negro/negrito would have tripped off his tongue instinctively. hence no racial undertow whatsoever merely what the fuck you on about you odious little Reptilain fuckin vermin piece of shit.

Sorry.

 

Correct we also must not lose sight of the fact that Evra speaks the language very well, is a close friend of Tevez another South American and was savvy enough about the intricacies of the language to come up with a word that is used by Spaniards to denigrate South Americans.

In Spain the South Americans are largely the down trodden low paid workers. It is similar to someone learning the English language well enough to know how to denigrate say an Irish person in England.

The person who is well equipped enough linguistically to come up with the right word to insult a South American in Spanish then feigns ignorance of the meaning of the word Suarez used.

[Dr Stop]

Evra didnt accidently offend Suarez.
 
 We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms.  Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.

I dont know if there were racial connotations. Why hasnt he, at any time, issued an apology, as your'e suggesting Luis shoukld have done?

Well I guess that if Suarez wasn't offended because he didn't hear it then an apology would be superfluous. Wouldn't be a bad idea anyway though to try and clear the air.

It will be interesting to see if there were any racial connotations to what Evra said, even if Suarez didn't hear it.

[BCCC]

Fuck me, you can't get away with insulting anything these days!

Mind you I guess it was a bit much likening a poor harmless reptile to that odious twat

 

One of my reptiles is called Suarez just to complicate things..

[Timbo's Goals]

Mirra - I'd be really grateful and it would be really enlightening if you'd be so kind as to assess the contrast in what I - and a few others too - have said about viewing the alleged Porque negro/negrita words through your English lens as distinct from the lens it was spoken in and thus intended to be heard in.

[fosspowered]

One of my reptiles is called Suarez just to complicate things..

Does it bite? 

[Redsnappa]

The more I read of this and the more I get to understand the nuances and meanings of Spanish and Latin American Spanish, the more I am convinced that Evra is a liar.

Humiliated playing-wise on the pitch by Suarez, he's twisted the exchange of words made in colloquial Spanish, fully understanding that what Luis said was absolutely harmless.

Odious and cowardly doesn't even begin to describe what he's done to a fellow professional 

[thejbs]

I understand your point - and agree we should always make it contingent if we mention the possibility. I don't think speculating about this is wrong per se because that is part of the narrative as its being talked about out there. For example to ignore the possibility that the word negrito is part of this whole affair is to ignore what seems to be at the heart of every piece of discussion on every platform and media on this issue.

I agree that you have to entertain the possibility that he said Negrito and Evra started it by saying Sudaca.  You also equally have to entertain that Evra didn't say it and Suarez used the word 'negro' and was being deliberately derogative.

The majority on here are convinced of the former and are refusing to entertain the possibility of the latter and this is based on conjecture.  Such vehemence based on conjecture is startling to me.  I certainly support luis as the club supports him but I can't say more than that. I don't think its fair to start spitting back at Evra (as much as I've always disliked him).

[BCCC]

Does it bite? 

Not yet but currently going through puberty so anything is possible.

[Smudgester]

Its a bit difficult to take offence at something you didn't hear nor would that then have had an impact on anything Luis did or didn't say.

Where does that statement say Luis didn't hear it ? It simply says he told the panel that he didn't hear it eg he's not a grass and knows that this sort of thing goes on all the time (as Gordon Taylor always said in cases such as this ... until now of course).

[Mad Max]

Baconfaced, ginsoaked old c*nt thinks the matter is finished.

We've only just begun you c*nt.

He's a complete c*nt.

[Lenin.]

Well I guess that if Suarez wasn't offended because he didn't hear it then an apology would be superfluous. Wouldn't be a bad idea anyway though to try and clear the air.

It will be interesting to see if there were any racial connotations to what Evra said, even if Suarez didn't hear it.

Maybe he couldnt understand what the prick was babbling on about. Maybe Evra's spanish is shite?
It doesnt matter. Evra has admitted to  abusing Suarez. (I dont believe he will have admitted to a racial slur, probably about Luis's mother or sister). So where is the apology?

[The Gulleysucker]

I'm actually with Mirra on this.

There are few good reasons to ever refer to someone with a casual attributive adjective to their skin colour or ethnic origins.

Outside of deliberately malicious and outright racism, here in the UK it's grammatically a bit lazy for a start, almost a glottal stop that reflects a carelessness of thought or barren intellect and consideration for the sensitivities of others that as we now see, can too easily be interpreted as an insult with racial overtones with all the complications and polarisations that result.

However, it's fair to say that other cultures have very different sensitivities and linguistic nuances that while seeming odd to us simply must be taken into account but with scrupulous integrity and balance and with no suggestion of a hidden agenda in order to achieve a truly fair judgement.

I'm unsure and uncomfortable that this has been the case here, evidence of hypocrisy by the FA and others involved in this particular case in previous judgements give me little reason to have faith in their particular findings.

This is about two foreigners from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds having a private slanging match no one else heard though in a public place here in the UK and in a foreign language so veracity, context and intent are all, but we won't know this in detail until all the evidence to reach the conclusion has been shown.

Then, and only then, will it be time to reappraise and either accept this judgement and modify behaviour accordingly, or bring big guns to the fight and appeal the judgement.

[BCCC]

Where does that statement say Luis didn't hear it ? It simply says he told the panel that he didn't hear it eg he's not a grass and knows that this sort of thing goes on all the time (as Gordon Taylor always said in cases such as this ... until now of course).

Well if he told the fuckin panel he didn't hear it when he did then he's not really done himself any favours has he.

For the record I'm not telepathic so I can only go off the facts as they're reported, he says he didn't hear it then I have to take his word - as do the panel.

[Smudgester]

It will be interesting to see if there were any racial connotations to what Evra said, even if Suarez didn't hear it.

If the word was, as rumoured, "sudaca" then it has been made adundantly clear that this is far far worse than the word Suarez was meant to have used and, unlike Suarez's word, can only be used to racially abuse someone.

[JustDan]

Dunno if it's been posted, but #ISupportLuisSuarez is trending on twitter

[BCCC]

I'm actually with Mirra on this.

There are few good reasons to ever refer to someone with a casual attributive adjective to their skin colour or ethnic origins.

Outside of deliberately malicious and outright racism, here in the UK it's grammatically a bit lazy for a start, almost a glottal stop that reflects a carelessness of thought or barren intellect and consideration for the sensitivities of others that as we now see, can too easily be interpreted as an insult with racial overtones with all the complications and polarisations that result.

However, it's fair to say that other cultures have very different sensitivities and linguistic nuances that while seeming odd to us simply must be taken into account but with scrupulous integrity and balance and with no suggestion of a hidden agenda in order to achieve a truly fair judgement.

I'm unsure and uncomfortable that this has been the case here, evidence of hypocrisy by the FA and others involved in this particular case in previous judgements give me little reason to have faith in their particular findings.

This is about two foreigners from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds having a private slanging match no one else heard though in a public place here in the UK and in a foreign language so veracity, context and intent are all, but we won't know this in detail until all the evidence to reach the conclusion has been shown.

Then, and only then, will it be time to reappraise and either accept this judgement and modify behaviour accordingly, or bring big guns to the fight and appeal the judgement.

Nailed it.

[Kidspen]

Where does that statement say Luis didn't hear it ? It simply says he told the panel that he didn't hear it eg he's not a grass and knows that this sort of thing goes on all the time (as Gordon Taylor always said in cases such as this ... until now of course).

Are you saying that he might have lied to the panel?

[Timbo's Goals]

I agree that you have to entertain the possibility that he said Negrito and Evra started it by saying Sudaca.  You also equally have to entertain that Evra didn't say it and Suarez used the word 'negro' and was being deliberately derogative.

The majority on here are convinced of the former and are refusing to entertain the possibility of the latter and this is based on conjecture.  Such vehemence based on conjecture is startling to me.  I certainly support luis as the club supports him but I can't say more than that. I don't think its fair to start spitting back at Evra (as much as I've always disliked him).

Porque Negro or negrito - makes no difference in Uruguyan street idiom - it means yer what pal? or something about reptiles called Suarez resembling a snarling odious twat called Evra

 

[Smudgester]

Well if he told the fuckin panel he didn't hear it when he did then he's not really done himself any favours has he.

True. But according to the LFC statement, Evra admitted to the panel that he broke rule ES(1) - just cos nobody heard him he still did it. In effect he is in the same boar many are putting Suarez in ie he didn't help himself by admitting saying something. But here we are, nearly 5 days later, and still no charge for Evra.

In a criminal court, if you confess to a crime in a witness box then you'd be arrested the minute the stepped out of the court room.

Are you saying that he might have lied to the panel?

No. I am saying that he maybe didn't want to report it (no different to people not wanting to press charges when everyone knows there been an offence). "insulting behaviour" happens in every single game in the Premier League but it never gets reported (even when the players are clearly seen telling the ref to "fuck off you c*nt") but opponents never report it, they just get on with it. You may not like that but it's still a fact.

[SRAWL]

Well if he told the fuckin panel he didn't hear it when he did then he's not really done himself any favours has he.

If he did admit to hearing it he would have, perhaps, been worse off - the panel would have thought that he was using the term (whatever he said) in retaliation. No?

[Met]

I get the feeling Ferguson (and the FA?) are shitting themselves, hence coming out and telling us to accept the punishment, let the matter rest etc..

They expected us to accept the punishment and have our season derailed by shit but instead we're raiding the armory and preparing for war. They didn't see it coming.

[Dr Stop]

Maybe he couldnt understand what the prick was babbling on about. Maybe Evra's spanish is shite?
It doesnt matter. Evra has admitted to  abusing Suarez. (I dont believe he will have admitted to a racial slur, probably about Luis's mother or sister). So where is the apology?

There hasn't been any apologies.

What's your point? That because Evra hasn't apologised for something he has allegedly said (though it caused no offence), that our man shouldn't apologise for accidentally causing racial offence?

[Lenin.]

Well if he told the fuckin panel he didn't hear it when he did then he's not really done himself any favours has he.

For the record I'm not telepathic so I can only go off the facts as they're reported, he says he didn't hear it then I have to take his word - as do the panel.

What do you want him to do lie? (like Manchester United staff have been found to do, previously concerning racist accusations involving Evra).
If he hasnt heard Evra insulting him, it makes sense to me that he sees, like we all did, Evra running round shouting and wailing and making a general knob of himself. You can see Luis laughing at him. Which is were;
'Calm down, mate', (in Spanish). comes in, imo. (Fuck knows where Evra gets the 'at least 10 times' bit from. Luis says once.

[BCCC]

True. But according to the LFC statement, Evra admitted to the panel that he broke rule ES(1) - just cos nobody heard him he still did it. In effect he is in the same boar many are putting Suarez in ie he didn't help himself by admitting saying something. But here we are, nearly 5 days later, and still no charge for Evra.

In a criminal court, if you confess to a crime in a witness box then you'd be arrested the minute the stepped out of the court room.

Nobody knew Evra had insulted Luis Suarez until he incriminated himself in his statement. He could and should be punished for it but it has no bearing on what Luis said or did.

I'll give you FA double standards but I can't see how it would have an effect on the outcome with Luis.

[Timbo's Goals]

I'm actually with Mirra on this.

There are few good reasons to ever refer to someone with a casual attributive adjective to their skin colour or ethnic origins.

Outside of deliberately malicious and outright racism, here in the UK it's grammatically a bit lazy for a start, almost a glottal stop that reflects a carelessness of thought or barren intellect and consideration for the sensitivities of others that as we now see, can too easily be interpreted as an insult with racial overtones with all the complications and polarisations that result.

However, it's fair to say that other cultures have very different sensitivities and linguistic nuances that while seeming odd to us simply must be taken into account but with scrupulous integrity and balance and with no suggestion of a hidden agenda in order to achieve a truly fair judgement.

I'm unsure and uncomfortable that this has been the case here, evidence of hypocrisy by the FA and others involved in this particular case in previous judgements give me little reason to have faith in their particular findings.

This is about two foreigners from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds having a private slanging match no one else heard though in a public place here in the UK and in a foreign language so veracity, context and intent are all, but we won't know this in detail until all the evidence to reach the conclusion has been shown.

Then, and only then, will it be time to reappraise and either accept this judgement and modify behaviour accordingly, or bring big guns to the fight and appeal the judgement.

Mirra currently thinks it's racist. He's not yet commented on whether in the Uruguyan street idiom Suarez's language may have been entirely innocent.

So do you actually mean you think it's racist pending a read of the transcript?

[Met]

I thought Mirra was a dude

[redtel]

I'm actually with Mirra on this.

There are few good reasons to ever refer to someone with a casual attributive adjective to their skin colour or ethnic origins.

Outside of deliberately malicious and outright racism, here in the UK it's grammatically a bit lazy for a start, almost a glottal stop that reflects a carelessness of thought or barren intellect and consideration for the sensitivities of others that as we now see, can too easily be interpreted as an insult with racial overtones with all the complications and polarisations that result.

However, it's fair to say that other cultures have very different sensitivities and linguistic nuances that while seeming odd to us simply must be taken into account but with scrupulous integrity and balance and with no suggestion of a hidden agenda in order to achieve a truly fair judgement.

I'm unsure and uncomfortable that this has been the case here, evidence of hypocrisy by the FA and others involved in this particular case in previous judgements give me little reason to have faith in their particular findings.

This is about two foreigners from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds having a private slanging match no one else heard though in a public place here in the UK and in a foreign language so veracity, context and intent are all, but we won't know this in detail until all the evidence to reach the conclusion has been shown.

Then, and only then, will it be time to reappraise and either accept this judgement and modify behaviour accordingly, or bring big guns to the fight and appeal the judgement.

We do need to see the FA's report.

Ponder this if you will. John Barnes has commented that Suarez admitted to using the "problem" word. He added that he would not have done this if he intended to racially abuse Evra. Suarez knows that to racially abuse a player is wrong, but he was using the word in what he thought was a non racial way.

It's difficult to understand how the panel could not see this simple truth if they were trying to reach a just verdict. It raises the question as to what exactly their motives were leading up to the case.