Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[rafathegaffa83]

Piece from CNN about the role of language in this

One word with many meanings translates into sports controversy
By Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN
November 17, 2011 -- Updated 1620 GMT (0020 HKT)

    Patrice Evra accuses Luis Suarez of using a racial slur
    British media reports suggest Suarez shouted the Spanish word "negrito"
    Experts say what that word means depends on when -- and how -- it's said
    "It's often a term of endearment," one scholar says

(CNN) -- A racially-charged word with many meanings may be at the root of a dispute between two sports rivals that reaches far beyond the soccer field, analysts say.

Manchester United's Patrice Evra, who is black, says the word Uruguayan Luis Suarez shouted repeatedly during a match last month was a racial slur. Evra demanded that Suarez be held accountable for the controversial exchange, which erupted as authorities investigate other accusations of racism in soccer.

Suarez, a striker for Liverpool, hasn't specified what he said, but he argues that it wasn't offensive.

"I didn't insult him. It was only a form of expressing myself. I called him something his own teammates from Manchester call him," Suarez said, according to the Uruguayan newspaper El Pais.

British media reports have suggested Suarez used the Spanish word "negrito."

If that's the case, whether Suarez's remark was racist is a complicated question that doesn't have a black-and-white answer, according to scholars who've studied race issues in Latin America.


"It's about questions of translation or context," said Mark Sawyer, director of the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics at the University of California Los Angeles.

The word's literal translation is "little black man." But generally, negrito is not considered a racial slur in Latin America, Sawyer said. In fact, it frequently has a positive meaning.

"It's often a term of endearment," he said.

But what the word means also depends on where -- and how -- it's said.

"In Puerto Rico, it has one meaning. In Cuba it has a slightly different connotation and in the Dominican Republic it has a slightly different connotation," said Jorge Chinea, director of the Center for Chicano-Boricua Studies at Wayne State University in Detroit.

Chinea said his mother and stepfather, both of whom were light-skinned, frequently used the word.

"When they talked as a couple, my mother would say, 'negrito, I love you.' ... I grew up listening to those expressions commonly being used by a lot of people in my community in Puerto Rico. And it was never associated with any color," he said.

After he moved to the United States in the 1960s, Chinea said, the word took on a different meaning. Many of his acquaintances used racial nicknames, he said, but there was no harm intended.

"It was always more like a quick way of acknowledging the distinctiveness of that person in a very friendly way," he said.

But Chinea said one of his Cuban colleagues in graduate school who employed the word drew criticism.

"When he used it and other people heard it, people came to me to complain. ... In the United States, it sounds offensive to some people," Chinea said.

In Uruguay, the meaning is clear, said U.S. radio talk show host Fernando Espuelas, who originally hails from the South American country.

"It's not a slur whatsoever," said Espuelas, whose show often addresses racism in the Latino community. "It's a term of endearment. You definitely would not use that if you were angry. It would sound ridiculous."

Several scholars said the word's meaning could be connected with complicated racial politics in different Latin American countries, which each had unique historical experiences with colonization and the slave trade.

Uruguay, Chinea noted, has a smaller population of African descendants than some other Latin American nations. In 2006, about 9% of the population declared "Afro or black" roots, according to Uruguay's National Statistics Institute.

"If I were of African descent and someone from that part of the world was to use the word toward me, I would probably think twice about what the intentions are, whereas if the person who was saying it was from Cuba you'd probably take it as a joke. And if you said it to a Puerto Rican, they'd just love it," Chinea said.


Using the word negrito to describe U.S. President Barack Obama got a Honduran government official into hot water in 2009.

Then-Foreign Minister Enrique Ortez was forced to resign after he called Obama a "negrito who does not know where (the Honduran capital of) Tegucigalpa is."

But analysts said without hearing exactly what Suarez shouted in the October football match, or how he said it, it's impossible to know what he meant.

"It's a very interesting case. It will be interesting to see if the English Football Association actually consults experts on this," Sawyer said. "If you want to charge someone with racism or making a racial slur, the person should at least have the intent of making a slur. It's not necessarily clear that Luis Suarez had that intent."

The association said Wednesday that it was charging Suarez, but did not provide details about what transpired.

"It is alleged that Suarez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behavior towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules," the association said in a statement.

"It is further alleged that this included a reference to the ethnic origin and/or color and/or race of Patrice Evra," the statement said.

Liverpool said in a statement that the club expects Suarez to request a personal hearing on the issue and "remains determined to clear his name of the allegation made against him by Patrice Evra."

In a post on his Facebook page shortly after the October match, Suarez said the accusations of racism upset him.

"I can only say that I have always respected and respect everybody," he said. "We are all the same. I go to the field with the maximum (enthusiasm) of a little child who enjoys what he does, not to create conflicts."

Evra, in an interview with France's Canal Plus, said evidence would support his claim.

"There are cameras. You can see him say a certain word to me at least 10 times. There is no place for that in 2011," he said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/17/sport/soccer-word-controversy/?hpt=isp_t5

[Stussy]

So can anyone explain why they would be interviewing several Man Utd players and nobody at all from LFC?

We don't know that they have not interviewed LFC players. If I had to speculate I'd imagine it would be impossible to carry out a fair investigation without doing so, and if they didn't, Suarez's QC would be onto it when it comes to the hearing.

[Juan Loco]

So I'll just throw it out there then 'cos non of our impartial, not at all biased press seem to want to engage the pressing issue.

If his teammates heard the alleged slur, why did none of his teammates draw the referees attention towards it during the match?

[Stussy]

I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on forums that Suarez has a mixed race background, but haven't been able to get detail on this yet from googling. I suspect it isn't true and is just a rumour thrown out there at random. Could any of our Uruguayan members confirm or deny this, just to clear it up? Cheers.

[1021]

If Manchester United players provided testomonies stating they too heard the racial abuse from Luis Suarez to Patrice Evra, how can they explain none of them reporting it to the referree during the game or at the final whistle or why none of them leapt to their captains defence and had words with Suarez.

I'm sure if you witnessed racial abuse on the pitch, the sort you could recall in vivid enough detail to provide a testomy before an FA hearing it would have raised some emotions at the time of the event.

[Stussy]

 

I called him something his own teammates from Manchester call him," Suarez said, according to the Uruguayan newspaper El Pais.

^^^ This for me is extraordinary if true. Its all speculation, but extraordinary if he's not mistaken or being untruthful.

[1021]

^^^ This for me is extraordinary if true. Its all speculation, but extraordinary if he's not mistaken or being untruthful.

If the case, we'll need names of the players then won't we, so they can all be called racists and banned/punished/summoned?

[horne]

beginning to wonder whether that loon blatter has probably come up with he best solution.
there are so many ifs and buts on this one that its going to be a dangerous outcome whatever the decision.
it should be used to send a global message out there that racism is a bad thing if that is the intention so that the element of doubt diminished maybe in the future.
the two should maybe shake hands and and put it down to experience with an element of good will attached and apologies made if any harm was done.....by both sides ....bit of understanding needed i reckon.
dont know how many black players suarez has played with over the years but he carries no scars in terms of run ins with this sought of thing before....evra does .....its too risky and important a decision to get wrong on an if and a maybe

[Stussy]

Its a strange one, because its an audacious claim, almost unbelievable, so you wonder why would he say it if it isn't correct? The alternative is that he's mistaken, or a liar.

[Stussy]

Yeah of course, could be just lost in translation too.

[horne]

Its a strange one, because its an audacious claim, almost unbelievable, so you wonder why would he say it if it isn't correct? The alternative is that he's mistaken, or a liar.

or a misunderstanding by someone who thinks he can speak a language fluently but at the end of the day is french?....thus is vulnerable to a slight misunderstanding.......i would bet good money that evra jumped to the worst conclusion initially and is shocked to realise that the word spoken from the mother tongue can carry a different meaning and intention.

[jckliew]

ALL sounds like cultural differences

it will end up

FA- No case as it was just a misunderstanding due to cross culltural differences covering Latin South America, Negrito-Franco and English.

Cased CLOSED.

Ah...........the what a wonderful world of diversities we live in! 

[hide5seek]

All the idle speculation on here is worse than the shyte British press.

All people really need to know is Luis Suarez will have the best lawyers the club can get and it he's to be found guilty the FA had better be 100% correct or it'll cause a shit storm they've never seen the like of.

As for numpties from Talkshyte, Daily Fail, Independent etc there all a bunch of know nothing pricks in particular Taylor from the Guardian.

[phonebook21]

I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on forums that Suarez has a mixed race background, but haven't been able to get detail on this yet from googling. I suspect it isn't true and is just a rumour thrown out there at random. Could any of our Uruguayan members confirm or deny this, just to clear it up? Cheers.

This video has Suarez's family in it, including his mother towards the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZFq0b7MEY

[swordfishtrombone]

http://www.chivascampeon.com/noticia/2009/

Maybe this gives us a clue about which of Evra's teammates could have called him negrito...

""Chicharito"  Hernández, destaca el gol anotado ayer por otro joven como Omar Esparza, en la victoria ante Tigres: " Me gustó mucho el gol del Negrito (Omar Esparza), creo que es una muestra de que los jóvenes de Chivas, estamos listos para responder en juegos importantes como los de Liguilla. Por mi parte seguiré trabajando con humildad  para ganarme una oportunidad."

[Discipline]

There is no evidence of Suarez saying "negrito", can we stop saying he said that please?

[Abrak]

3 (1) A Participant shall at all times act in the best interests of the game and shall not act in any manner which is improper or brings the game into disrepute or use any one, or a combination of, violent conduct, serious foul play, threatening, abusive,
indecent or insulting words or behaviour.

(2) In the event of any breach of Rule E 3(1) including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability (an “aggravating factor”),


I think that if you look at the charges against Suarez, it is perhaps wrong to get too hung up about whether the term 'Negrito' is abusive. Almost certainly by itself it is not (even if Evra didnt understand its meaning and thought it was). However the word would compound abusive behavior if it was used in addition under the rules because it would be a reference to the person's ethnic origin (just as calling Suarez 'Uruguayan' combined with 'abuse' would be an 'aggravating factor' as a reference to his nationality.) It is perhaps most obvious in the Terry case whereby the term 'black' is not abusive in itself but 'black c*nt' is 'abuse' with 'aggravating factor' of reference to his ethnic background.

If all there is to this, is that Suarez called him 'Negrito' then it is very difficult to pin the first charge of 'abusive behavior'. In fact, it is quite difficult to pin it anyway given that noone seems to have picked up on it outside of Evra. But if Suarez was being verbally abusive towards Evra in other ways, then I think that 'Negrito' (or even the use of the word 'French') would be considered an 'aggravating factor' that would subject Suarez to twice the normal punishment.

I would expect (or perhaps hope) the standard for proof of abusive behavior to be quite high - like for instance 'Rooney's swearing into the camera'.

[Chris Vincent]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/94Fn9RDgeoo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/94Fn9RDgeoo</a>

At least, this farce is not affecting Suarez's form on the field. He scored 4 goals against Chile when playing for Uruguay - 2 headers, 1 left foot shot and 1 right foot shot.

It's difficult to imagine a striker who is that good for his club as well as for his country.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

and how would they know what was said as bar hernandez none of the others speak spanish?

De Gea, Anderson probably speaks Spanish, Hernandez, Nani probably speaks Spanish, fabio and Rafael probably speak Spanish, Valencia.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Isnt it just, CNN even reporting it this has blown up its massive its an absolute disgrace and should have been sorted out weeks ago, instead the media, other managers and various players have succeeded in their witchunt of Luis Suarez and us fans should really do something about it, they have it in for us, they had it in for Rafa and its about time we put a stop to it !!!!

"Us fans should really do something.."

Depends what you mean. I think we should get behind our player until the position has been stated. There are enough things already about Evra's reporting of the situation that just don't ring true. I was at the match and there was no suggestion of any of this while the game was going on. Evra was shown up to be the shite footballer that he's looked of late throughout the game. He was moaning to everyone and anyone repeatedly - you could understand this if he reported what he said occurred - but he chose not to. You would think that he would have had just a problem with Suarez - but he has pushing and arguing with Liverpool players all over the pitch throughout the game. Questions have to be asked why he didn't take it forward when he had so many opportunities during and after the game. This is a crucial question. Why did he lie about the Ref 'knowing'? Why did he lie about the other officials 'knowing'? Why did he lie about it 'obviously being on TV and you can see it'? Why did he lie about "The other players hearing it?" If all the other players at the time said they heard nothing and no one else reported anything then why apparantly are they all changing their stories at this stage?

We've said that if it gets investigated and if Suarez has deliberately and with malice racially abused Evra then steps will need to be taken, but there are just far too many questions at present to automatically believe Evra. So let's just wait for the hearing, see what evidence is presented and then go from there.

I don't particularly want our fans to get too involved until the situation is clearer.

Any action taken at this stage will have ramifications throughout football - if Suarez has used a term that isn't racist at he gets done for it then the FA will be accusing 400 million people of being institutionally racist. Interestingly they will also be accusing several squad members of Manchester United of the same thing and every single Spanish player in every single league. Not to mention every single Spanish speaking player involved in the game outside the direct playing staff.

This has the potential to become very, very messy.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

There are a lot of posters lucky they are not serving short bans this morning.

1. Read the opening post and the rest of the thread before posting
2. Abide by the guidelines in the opening post
3. Avoid inane speculation or dumb analogies
4. Leave your paranoia at home

If there is something you don't understand then feel free to ask the question and hopefully someone will be able to answer it.

[Upinsmoke]

I think i've come to terms with this "charge" in the sense that i believe luis is innocent and will clear his name.
Its important we all get behind him now and stop throwing rumours around. If anything let this make our bond with luis even stronger.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Just one other note on the idea of supporters getting behind him.  This is important and we should show him full support, innocent until proven guilty after all.  So plenty of Uruguayan flags and belt out his song with passion.

I think it is vital though that we don't sink to the level of the knuckle dragging idiots who followed Chelsea to Genk though.  Football rivalries to not transcend things like racism, and their attacks on Anton Ferdinand (who never made a complaint btw) were vile and if anything served only to reinforce how influential footballers are and hence how important it is that Terry is very publically punished if found guilty.

[hoonin]

Its important we all get behind him now and stop throwing rumours around. If anything let this make our bond with luis even stronger.

Already sent him my last rolo.

[Buzz Killington]

Thought this bit was interesting from Kenny (The Guardian)

The Suárez issue has merely compounded Dalglish's view that Liverpool are not getting any help from the authorities.

"Most of the time you don't want to say anything but, if you don't say anything, they'll walk all over you," he said. "They might still walk all over us anyway but you've got to justify yourself, you've got to have an opinion and you've got to make a statement of a belief you've got."

[RayPhilAlan]

3 (1) A Participant shall at all times act in the best interests of the game and shall not act in any manner which is improper or brings the game into disrepute or use any one, or a combination of, violent conduct, serious foul play, threatening, abusive,
indecent or insulting words or behaviour.

(2) In the event of any breach of Rule E 3(1) including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability (an “aggravating factor”),

Remember Robbie getting hauled over the coals for abusing Le Saux many years ago? Le Saux whacked him for it, and got sent off, but if I remember correctly Robbie's inciting of him got him in trouble too. Certainly when he did his sniffing the goal-line thing against Everton a few weeks later the FA completely threw the book at him, and I'm pretty sure it was partly because of the Le Saux incident. Can someone with a better memory confirm - did Robbie get a ban for the Le Saux incident, or was it a suspended sentence that fell after the Everton incident?

I'm just wondering, you see, if found guilty will Luis be given a suspended sentence, or suspended in part at least. I certainly don't see it being any worse than that.

[BluMunkey]

Anybody hear Gus Poyet tearing a strip off Ronny Irani just now on Talk Sport? Big defence of Luis but some of the things he said might not help him too much due to how these things get twisted.

[Abrak]

Just one other note on the idea of supporters getting behind him.  This is important and we should show him full support, innocent until proven guilty after all.  So plenty of Uruguayan flags and belt out his song with passion.

I think it is vital though that we don't sink to the level of the knuckle dragging idiots who followed Chelsea to Genk though.  Football rivalries to not transcend things like racism, and their attacks on Anton Ferdinand (who never made a complaint btw) were vile and if anything served only to reinforce how influential footballers are and hence how important it is that Terry is very publically punished if found guilty.

However it would be hypocritical (IMHO) if fans supported Suarez while at the same time (booing/crucifying) Terry. They are both innocent until proven guilty and the value of our support for Suarez is worth very little if it is accompanied by a condemnation of Terry against whom allegations have not yet been proven also.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

However it would be hypocritical (IMHO) if fans supported Suarez while at the same time (booing/crucifying) Terry. They are both innocent until proven guilty and the value of our support for Suarez is worth very little if it is accompanied by a condemnation of Terry against whom allegations have not yet been proven also.

Agreed.

[Dr. Beaker]

(Black) FIFA spokesman just seems to have indicated that Luis is guilty by urging Liverpool to take action! I really can't believe what I heard him say on the BBC. Did anyone else just see it.

It was just a FIFA apolgy on behalf of Blatter, but he wandered off onto the Luis case!

[drpepe]

(Black) FIFA spokesman just seems to have indicated that Luis is guilty by urging Liverpool to take action! I really can't believe what I heard him say on the BBC. Did anyone else just see it.

It was just a FIFA apolgy on behalf of Blatter, but he wandered off onto the Luis case!

It is a huge problem that (just like Mascherano)  an incident involving our player is being joined with a much larger much more serious issue.

Did this fa spokesman mention terry?

[Dr. Beaker]

It is a huge problem that (just like Mascherano)  an incident involving our player is being joined with a much larger much more serious issue.

Did this fa spokesman mention terry?

Yes he did go on to say that the Terry case was worse as he was the England captain. But didn't pre-judge that case.

[redhot-robbie]

The FA are in a tough position, Luis is firmly saying he did not say anything racist and Evra is saying he did.  Now we don't know if there is any footage backing up his claim but the report saying he is going to need his teamates as a witness would suggest not, if so it is one mans word v's another = impossible to charge and the FA can't do anything other than warn both players.

IF Luis said something that in Spanish has a different meaning again the FA would struggle to do anything because that in it self would be discriminating against a 'race' and legal teams would have a field day trust me.

The FA have done the only thing they can do to save face really, charge Luis to show it is looking into it, have a hearing and then dismiss.

I am honestly not worried because from the information we have there is no case to answer.

[Joe_Singh]

Thought this bit was interesting from Kenny (The Guardian)

The Suárez issue has merely compounded Dalglish's view that Liverpool are not getting any help from the authorities.

"Most of the time you don't want to say anything but, if you don't say anything, they'll walk all over you," he said. "They might still walk all over us anyway but you've got to justify yourself, you've got to have an opinion and you've got to make a statement of a belief you've got."

It really is. I've wanted the siege mentality at Anfield for a while. I think its one of the factors that cost Rafa his job the fact that he wouldn't use it.

[doc_antonio]

Yes he did go on to say that the Terry case was worse as he was the England captain. But didn't pre-judge that case.

i don't understand how a "racial slur" or racism in general can be worse "because he's the england captain" racism has no stay in football full stop. each case is as bad as the last and should be treated in the same way. we've came so many years trying to kick it out of football, so the Suarez case is just as bad as the Terry case, they are both professional footballers, stars for their respective team and both need to lead by example. I hope that the accusations against suarez aren't true, and i hope it get cleared quickly so we can move on past this.

[Abrak]

I think it is quite important to view how your own moral compass sits with this whole process.

Personally, my own sits above my loyalty to Liverpool (and I can guarantee that my own moral values are pretty low). If I genuinely believed that Suarez had intended racial abuse against Evra I would in no way support him despite my loyalty to Liverpool. In fact my loyalty to Liverpool encompasses that value.

As things 'apparently' stand I will also place my belief in the fact that Suarez is not racist above what is currently both the charges and the media evidence on the basis that (1) he is not really being charged as being a racist and (2) I see no evidence (yet) that he had the intention of being racist. So I will probably support Suarez as 'innocent' even if he is declared guilty under the the 'FA eyes'.

However, the high bar I place on the 'proof of guilt' means absolutely nothing if I can 'pre-judge' others as guilty (whether it is not because they play for Liverpool or otherwise.) If supporters cheer Suarez and boo Terry dont be surprised that supporters get readily condemned in the press as exerting double standards and having no moral compass at all.

[Yozza1]

Uruguayan Gus Poyet on talksport now backing Suarez's case

If you missed it you can listen here

http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/1293/42/exclusive-poyet-luis-suarez-100-not-racist

[Tommy_W]

Poyet doesn't come across well at all in that interview

[the_red_pill]

http://www.chivascampeon.com/noticia/2009/

Maybe this gives us a clue about which of Evra's teammates could have called him negrito...

""Chicharito"  Hernández, destaca el gol anotado ayer por otro joven como Omar Esparza, en la victoria ante Tigres: " Me gustó mucho el gol del Negrito (Omar Esparza), creo que es una muestra de que los jóvenes de Chivas, estamos listos para responder en juegos importantes como los de Liguilla. Por mi parte seguiré trabajando con humildad  para ganarme una oportunidad."

It could be the word "negrito", since they've got Nani, Hernandez, the twins, Valencia in that team, so it's possible. They are his teammates and if anyone in that team was ever going to call him "negrito", it would be them.

Him saying that he called him something which his own teammates call him(IF it's that word), would then not be a plea of ignorance like "Look, even his teammates call him that, so it should not be offensive to him". It's more a hint or a giveaway that he used the word "negrito", which- if coupled with his statement- would just mean that he called him something that is common and not even offensive among South Americans.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Its a strange one, because its an audacious claim, almost unbelievable, so you wonder why would he say it if it isn't correct? The alternative is that he's mistaken, or a liar.

The things which are fact that go against him is the interview he gave to French TV where the very clear assertions he gave all turned out to be untrue.