Topic: New signings and progress

[Vulmea]

Woah hold on there Sparky. 

no difference for me making your mind up one way or the other -

 if you thought Lucas did well in the stiffs and when he first came into the team then you knew more than Lucas himself because he admits he wasn't good enough - he lacked strength and fitness - thinking he had the potential to improve and knowing he will improve are different things..........

[vivabobbygraham]

Woah hold on there Sparky. 

This Lucas shite bemuses the life out of me. Alan Green has an awful lot to answer for.

I had watched Lucas from his initial reserve games and it was clear from those initial games he was pretty much first team material even back then. And for me - and many others - he certainly began to prove it from the off once he started being selected first for odd games and then regularly once Xabi had gone.

The myth that has built up about the enormity of his improvement these past few seasons is just that - a myth - to those of us who have always rated him pretty highly. Sure he has matured in his all round play. No question of that.  But for many of us the lad was doing it right from the start. I certainly didn't require any faith to see what a decent player he was. He has always had reasonable pace and a decent 'engine' as they say, he has always got his foot in and competed perhaps not at Javier's level but in his own understated way not that far off, he has always been comfortably our best header of the ball in the middle of the park, he has always had decent control and he has always been able to deliver a reasonable if hardly ever spectacular pass.

Sure he can't shoot to save his life and especially in his early days he did make the odd gaffe and did give away several needless free kicks in dangerous areas and perhaps the odd pen. But show me one tackler who's never done that.

So where was the "belief" needed? Why did anyone need faith?

He was a decent player full stop.

For me the nasties in the crowd got on his back because although a different style of player he in effect became the first choice replacement for Xabi and there's not a midfielder on god's earth who could have done that gig.  So the lad was on a hiding to nothing [the expectation thing again?   . Also he was a definitive Rafa buy plucked from relative obscurity so the rafa haters had an ideal target to crucify the manager for a "lousy" buy and foreigner to boot.

Personally, I can only think the "vast improvement" myth is simply the justification some fans have needed for now almost being compelled by his consistent form to like him after at first dissing him something wicked [the fella in the seat next to us being a prime example - Lucas couldn't do anything right for him - and boy did we have some right ding dongs over it]. 

And as for the fact that you yourself needed the faith aspect to get you through the pre-acceptance spell? Well, on the one hand it is highly admirable but on the other it shows you haven't got a fuckin clue what it is you're watching.

Joke. Honest ter god. Believe.

 

I got behind him even though I had my doubts. I didn't buy into the argument some made that he was better going forward. He never looked comfortable in that role to me. But his sheer will to succeed won me over. He did that, not the weight of the minority who were purportedly behind him as their excuse that he was being played out of position did not wash with me. Lucas Leiva is a shining example of what can be achieved if you have belief in your own ability whilst knowing the manager has confidence in you, not the fans. I wondered whether he would suit Kenny's style. I needn't have. I have witnessed his rapid improvement under Kenny who has the midas touch with players on a personal level. In all this back and forth, perhaps his man management skills have been overlooked. His ability to coax, cajole and conjure performances, to make them better people as well as players is slowly blossoming into a squad that looks out for each other, a band of brothers if you like. All the tactics and team selections and transfer dealings in the World mean fuck all if you don't have the spirit and camaraderie in house to implement them.

[Timbo's Goals]

no difference for me making your mind up one way or the other -

 if you thought Lucas did well in the stiffs and when he first came into the team then you knew more than Lucas himself because he admits he wasn't good enough - he lacked strength and fitness - thinking he had the potential to improve and knowing he will improve are different things..........

I'd forgotten about him saying that. But now you mention it I do remember reading it at the time and recall wondering whether he was simply going along with the myth of this vast improvement or whether he genuinely believed he had come on that much. The fact is most players do improve as they gain vital experience and Lucas is no exception to that. So there's no doubt he has matured into a better player and as both you and VBobbyG rightly say his spirit in doing so in the face of the perceived idiocy of quite a few reds and commentators/media figures that he wasn't any good speaks volumes for him. However, the vast improvement thing is just not how I've seen his development. It's just been an orthodox trajectory as far as i've been concerned. No more no less. I guess if there is anything exceptional it's the fact he's come through all the shit and bile so unscathed and eternally grinning like Bernie fuckin Winters.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

I got behind him even though I had my doubts. I didn't buy into the argument some made that he was better going forward. He never looked comfortable in that role to me. But his sheer will to succeed won me over. He did that, not the weight of the minority who were purportedly behind him as their excuse that he was being played out of position did not wash with me. Lucas Leiva is a shining example of what can be achieved if you have belief in your own ability whilst knowing the manager has confidence in you, not the fans. I wondered whether he would suit Kenny's style. I needn't have. I have witnessed his rapid improvement under Kenny who has the midas touch with players on a personal level. In all this back and forth, perhaps his man management skills have been overlooked. His ability to coax, cajole and conjure performances, to make them better people as well as players is slowly blossoming into a squad that looks out for each other, a band of brothers if you like. All the tactics and team selections and transfer dealings in the World mean fuck all if you don't have the spirit and camaraderie in house to implement them.

Yeah. I think that attacking midfield talk stemmed from a few goals from his Gremio days. Like you I didn't really see him in that role not because he can't link up coming forward [he has shown that ability quite a few times] but mainly because he can't shoot for toffee.

Agree totally about Kenny's genius at man management. I just don't think Lucas is the finest example of it. I'm sure Kenny has helped him a lot but as I maintain in my other post - transformation? What transformation?

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

you could see it from day one what lucas was about.
if lucas said he wasnt good enough at the start its because of his humble nature nothing else.

[Timbo's Goals]

you could see it from day one what lucas was about.
if lucas said he wasnt good enough at the start its because of his humble nature nothing else.

Yeah that's probably nearer to how I saw his comments. He's got a marvellous natural humble and self effacing manner which somehow you just know is no act but simply the way he really is. A real liverpool player. A throwback to the old days of Cally and Hunt and Gerry Byrne and....Viva Bobby Graham 

[Vulmea]

you could see it from day one what lucas was about.
if lucas said he wasnt good enough at the start its because of his humble nature nothing else.

what when he was average and out of touch in the reserve side and outplayed by Spearing?

no doubt the same way people could see how Josemi was so good from day one or Insua or Nemeth or Eccleston or Amoo or endless list of would be stars who looked good from 'day one'

its as mad as writing players off after 12 games......

[vivabobbygraham]

Yeah. I think that attacking midfield talk stemmed from a few goals from his Gremio days. Like you I didn't really see him in that role not because he can't link up coming forward [he has shown that ability quite a few times] but mainly because he can't shoot for toffee.

Agree totally about Kenny's genius at man management. I just don't think Lucas is the finest example of it. I'm sure Kenny has helped him a lot but as I maintain in my other post - transformation? What transformation?

Wasn't he on Purslow's 'list' that he gave to Hodgson? So, Hodge podge kept him and continued to play him but getting the nod regularly from Kenny and the new contract must have been a huge boost to him. Added to that Kenny always seems to be around him when the photo's are being taken...or is it the other way around?

[Timbo's Goals]

what when he was average and out of touch in the reserve side and outplayed by Spearing?

ha ha - you obviously never watched them much together then. Either that or you're simply a fuckin nark or you're on these forums merely to attempt [not so subtle] wind ups.  I like Jay - not least for his versatility. He's a great lad and deserves his chance.  But a blind man could see Lucas's class towered above everyone else in those limited games he played for the reserves.

I think you're a fuckin nark personally. Great fun tho.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

Wasn't he on Purslow's 'list' that he gave to Hodgson? So, Hodge podge kept him and continued to play him but getting the nod regularly from Kenny and the new contract must have been a huge boost to him. Added to that Kenny always seems to be around him when the photo's are being taken...or is it the other way around?

Spot on from what I've read and heard VBG. What would be interesting to know is just what prompted Purslow and for that matter why his attempt failed. Was it his own decision to try to get shut, was it someone else inside, was it merely to rid the club of pure Rafa signings such as Lucas and aquilani.

Yeah. Kenny's faith in him must have been a terrific boost.

[Vulmea]

ha ha - you obviously never watched them much together then. Either that or you're simply a fuckin nark or you're on these forums merely to attempt [not so subtle] wind ups.  I like Jay - not least for his versatility. He's a great lad and deserves his chance.  But a blind man could see Lucas's class towered above everyone else in those limited games he played for the reserves.

I think you're a fuckin nark personally. Great fun tho.

 

I watched them I just dont re-write history to something it wasn't. Spearing had some games he dominated for our stiffs and ran the whole game. It doess not mean he had what it would take to play in the Prem.

Mellor was head and shoulders above anything in our reserves he was a class apart at that level but didn't pass muster at the top grade - you can't judge any player based on their performances for our reserve side especially the reserve set up of a few years ago it was a travesty. Its not even like watching a player at a league 2 game and saying he'll make it in the prem, the reserve league wasn't even as competritive as league 2.

[Sangria]

Spot on from what I've read and heard VBG. What would be interesting to know is just what prompted Purslow and for that matter why his attempt failed. Was it his own decision to try to get shut, was it someone else inside, was it merely to rid the club of pure Rafa signings such as Lucas and aquilani.

Yeah. Kenny's faith in him must have been a terrific boost.

From what Hodgson said, there was an offer from Inter which Purslow accepted, but Hodgson changed his mind later on and stopped the transfer going through when he realised he was short in CM. I think it was the same PC/interview where he revealed the existence of Purslow's list.

Wasn't he on Purslow's 'list' that he gave to Hodgson? So, Hodge podge kept him and continued to play him but getting the nod regularly from Kenny and the new contract must have been a huge boost to him. Added to that Kenny always seems to be around him when the photo's are being taken...or is it the other way around?

The first boost he got was from Menezes, who picked him for Brazil even though Poulsen was getting picked ahead of him at Liverpool. Poulsen was still Hodgson's first choice when Lucas had his first monster game of the season, when he had an Alonsolike controlling performance against Ukraine. Dalglish gave him additional encouragement by using him as one of the keystones in the team, IMHO going too far in the process. As much as I like Lucas, I think Dalglish relies on him way too much, for an area where it shouldn't be too costly to reinforce.

[Timbo's Goals]

I watched them I just dont re-write history to something it wasn't. Spearing had some games he dominated for our stiffs and ran the whole game. It doess not mean he had what it would take to play in the Prem.

Mellor was head and shoulders above anything in our reserves he was a class apart at that level but didn't pass muster at the top grade - you can't judge any player based on their performances for our reserve side especially the reserve set up of a few years ago it was a travesty. Its not even like watching a player at a league 2 game and saying he'll make it in the prem, the reserve league wasn't even as competritive as league 2.

Hmmm.

Nah.

I'll stick with my own take thanks all the same even though me rating him highly enough back then to be decent first team material was actually not - forgive my paraphrasing you - humanly possible unless I'd been LFC management.

You are a hoot though V.

 

[Vulmea]

I'll stick with my own take thanks all the same even though me rating him highly enough back then to be decent first team material was actually not - forgive my paraphrasing you - humanly possible unless I'd been LFC management.

You are a hoot though V.

 

dont think our staff can either - thats why they send players out on loan -

except the odd one or two maybe like Gerrard and Owen - they were not head and shoulders above the rest more like head, shoulders, knees and toes..... i feel a song coming on

[Timbo's Goals]

dont think our staff can either - thats why they send players out on loan -

except the odd one or two maybe like Gerrard and Owen - they were not head and shoulders above the rest more like head, shoulders, knees and toes..... i feel a song coming on

 

Wow you sing too? It just gets better and betterer

 

[Discipline]

Liverpool have snapped up MK Dons teenage sensation Seyi Ojo, much to the anger of Dons boss Karl Robinson.

The 14-year-old midfielder completed his move after spending four years at the Dons, during which time there he earned two England caps at Under-16 level.

"This is the opportunity of a lifetime for Seyi and his parents which has proved far too difficult to turn down," Dons chairman Peter Winkelman told the club's official website.

"There has been a lot of interest and speculation regarding Seyi which he has coped with admirably.

"We are extremely proud to have Seyi in our record books as our first schoolboy to receive an international cap.

"Everyone at the club would like to wish Seyi the best of luck in his future and we all look forward to the day he runs out at Anfield."

But Robinson was not in as generous mood, slamming the Premier League over the new Elite Player Performance Plan which reduces the amount of compensation big clubs have to pay for young talent.

“I went to watch our youth team this morning and I’m making a complaint,” he said. “It was a disgrace – I’ve seen something in this industry that I won’t accept. I want to make a point of it.

“There were three agents there going round trying to sign the kids of 14 and 15 years old. I’ve got them on tape and it will be done properly. Four Premier League clubs were there watching our players illegally. It’s a disgrace to our industry and I’m going right to the FA – right to the top. It made me sick.”

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2011/11/17/2762299/official-liverpool-sign-mk-dons-teenage-star-seyi-ojo

[HoinkDoink]

I heard about this player a few months ago, big things are expected from him so happy we signed him

[Timbo's Goals]

Ha ha.

Best moment of a pretty shit week. Gave me a smuggo chuckle anyroad.

Watching Barnesey on LFCtv talking about Lucas. Reckons Lucas is playing no different now from what he's done from the very start and his initial doubters and critics have merely jumped on the bandwagon of the myth of improved form to justify their initial doubt/criticism.

The man's clearly re-writing history eh V?

 

[Vulmea]

Ha ha.

Best moment of a pretty shit week. Gave me a smuggo chuckle anyroad.

Watching Barnesey on LFCtv talking about Lucas. Reckons Lucas is playing no different now from what he's done from the very start and his initial doubters and critics have merely jumped on the bandwagon of the myth of improved form to justify their initial doubt/criticism.

The man's clearly re-writing history eh V?

 

haven't seen it

love barnesy to bits but what he knows about football you might as well write on a biscuit but if its made you smile I guess you hang on to it

[Marko B]

what when he was average and out of touch in the reserve side and outplayed by Spearing?

no doubt the same way people could see how Josemi was so good from day one or Insua or Nemeth or Eccleston or Amoo or endless list of would be stars who looked good from 'day one'

its as mad as writing players off after 12 games......

That's absolute rubbish right there. I can't deny I haven't watched a great deal of reserve games but of those I did see there wasn't one where Spearing was the better or more mature player than Lucas.

Lucas' technique, movement, work rate and intelligence has always stood out, right from the start. The only anomaly is certain supporters not valuing those vital attributes to a player's game over the more flashy but ultimately far less valuable to a team.

[Timbo's Goals]

haven't seen it

love barnesy to bits but what he knows about football you might as well write on a biscuit but if its made you smile I guess you hang on to it

Ha ha, an iced gem or a wagon wheel?

It only makes me smile because I knew you'd be so pleased for me. I can feel your true sensibilities see V.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

That's absolute rubbish right there. I can't deny I haven't watched a great deal of reserve games but of those I did see there wasn't one where Spearing was the better or more mature player than Lucas.

Lucas' technique, movement, work rate and intelligence has always stood out, right from the start. The only anomaly is certain supporters not valuing those vital attributes to a player's game over the more flashy but ultimately far less valuable to a team.

So how long you been a member of the backroom staff then marko lad?

 

[Sangria]

haven't seen it

love barnesy to bits but what he knows about football you might as well write on a biscuit but if its made you smile I guess you hang on to it

If what I've heard from him as a commentator is any guide, he'd be a pretty good technically inclined coach.

[Sangria]

That's absolute rubbish right there. I can't deny I haven't watched a great deal of reserve games but of those I did see there wasn't one where Spearing was the better or more mature player than Lucas.

Lucas' technique, movement, work rate and intelligence has always stood out, right from the start. The only anomaly is certain supporters not valuing those vital attributes to a player's game over the more flashy but ultimately far less valuable to a team.

For me, the turning point was the thick neck and the haircut. Bulking up and trying to project a tougher image, that showed me he was prepared to take a good look at what were seen as his shortcomings and address them. Attitude is a hard thing to define most of the time, but here was a clearly visible illustration of it. From that point on, I started noticing all the non-game team things he did, like being one of the first on the scene in any fight (he and Mascherano were usually the first two). Being a good technical player is one thing, but I also like it when they show some fight as well.

[Discipline]

Okay. What the fuck. There is no way Seyi Ojo is fourteen. No way at all.

[Marko B]

So how long you been a member of the backroom staff then marko lad?

 

Haha if only I got paid for watching the amount of footy that I do while procrastinating my time away!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oOEZTFlACf4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oOEZTFlACf4</a>

Seriously though, even from watching something like this (I can't remember if I watched this exact game at the time or not) a number of things stand out when watching Lucas and give hints as to how good he might be (and these were things that certainly weren't just limited to this small package).

Technique - his first touch is never for the sake of taking one or just to trap the ball, it's always to tee up his next pass or movement. Also, he tends not to look to the area he's passing into.

Intelligence - Watch for the above and you'll see that his first touch tees up what he then wants to do with the ball ie creating the space or right angles for the pass he wants to play, often he doesn't even look when he plays the pass, it shows he's thinking one step ahead. Then watch his movement, there's no pause after he passes the ball, rather he continues the pass and the move without hesitation. So not only is it apparent he's generally thinking one step ahead (ie the exact pass) but that he's two ahead in that his movement and the pattern of play itself has been mapped out.

Movement - Watch for the variation in his movement. Some players are lazy in that they generally just sit and ball watch after passing the ball or the play passes them by, others are more instinctive or agressive without thinking (ie their immediate action is to drive forward without regards for the circumstances of the play and whether such an action will allow for their effective further involvemet in the play). Watch the variation of the movement of Lucas -  sometimes he runs, sometimes he sits, sometime he walks -  but the common thread is that if you look at the angle and space which opens up a moment or two after the play leaves Lucas he has generally created a situation where he is both available and in a good position to receive the pass should his teammate wish to use him.

And those were just a few of the attributes which gave me confidence that Lucas would be a cracking player.

[Vulmea]

That's absolute rubbish right there. I can't deny I haven't watched a great deal of reserve games but of those I did see there wasn't one where Spearing was the better or more mature player than Lucas.

Lucas' technique, movement, work rate and intelligence has always stood out, right from the start. The only anomaly is certain supporters not valuing those vital attributes to a player's game over the more flashy but ultimately far less valuable to a team.

totally agree - absolutely now get jason mcateer and jamie redknapp to say it as well and it's the same as fact - 

 

If what I've heard from him as a commentator is any guide, he'd be a pretty good technically inclined coach.

you may be right he certainly helped turn himself into a fantastic player - worked on his balance particularly from a very early age as I understand it - well ahead of the curve at the time - was a voice during the protests as well - as I said luv him to bits but his track record does not fill me with any confidence ( a few games with Jamaica doesn't cut it) and he's come out with as much fluff as he has insighful comment over the years imho - he has a tendency to support all of our players (thankfully) regardless.

I'm just watching the interview - the one were Didi is sitting next to Barnes and says - Lucas has grown as a player...... selective hearing maybe  - also where Barnes makes the point that because he always rated Lucas others have to eat humble pie and therein lies the reason behind why JB said what he did just like all the chest beaters on here - JB has him down as 'a simple give and go player, let others make the team attractive'  - many of Lucas's ardent supporters repeatedy say Lucas's isn't that at all - so is JB right on that bit as well - or are we just going to believe the nice bits.... I've got it on in the background he's now just said Downing has played reallly well and was the bright spark in the last two games....... really John? Actually I agree with the last bit just not the first bit - even playing below par Downing can create something.

My opinion

Lucas wasn't good enough when he started - he was a kid coming from a slow paced less physical league playing a different system - it would be ridiculous to expect him to be - he's said it, his performances showed it, he's improved his strength, his stamina, his understanding of his role and his 'presence' in the team -  there are a hundred reasons why it could have gone wrong in those early days - not least Lucas's own mentality - not even Lucas knew how he would react to a new country, new culture and then the lack of patience -  now because its come right those who guessed he would come good are bigging themselves up and think themselves justified - I think the loyalty showed to Lucas was great by those lads - I was neutral can't claim to be part of that but nor was I part of the get Lucas out campaign - for me he had to learn and improve to stay in the team, that didn't mean he couldn't and for me his time was running out, thankfully in the last couple of years he has stepped it up  - the idea he didn't need to grow and improve makes me smile nothing more - its typical human behaviour isn't it - 'told you so' - if it had gone wrong his supporters would be saying nothing now or making excuses about the crowd or his age or how he's been used - thats football - how the hell this turned into a Lucas thread I dont know - too many evangelical lucas supporters about who want to crow about how they were right all along I guess.

[Sangria]

you may be right he certainly helped turn himself into a fantastic player - worked on his balance particularly from a very early age as I understand it - well ahead of the curve at the time - was a voice during the protests as well - as I said luv him to bits but his track record does not fill me with any confidence ( a few games with Jamaica doesn't cut it) and he's come out with as much fluff as he has insighful comment over the years imho - he has a tendency to support all of our players (thankfully) regardless.

I'm just watching the interview - the one were Didi is sitting next to Barnes and says - Lucas has grown as a player...... selective hearing maybe  - also where Barnes makes the point that because he always rated Lucas others have to eat humble pie and therein lies the reason behind why JB said what he did just like all the chest beaters on here - JB has him down as 'a simple give and go player, let others make the team attractive'  - many of Lucas's ardent supporters repeatedy say Lucas's isn't that at all - so is JB right on that bit as well - or are we just going to believe the nice bits

I've pointed before to a comment from Barnes about 1 and 2 touch football that opened my eyes to an understanding of football that I didn't even know existed, where the 1 or 2 touches not only speeds play, but also has a knock on effect on the rest of the team's fluency.

About Lucas. He is a give and go player, and always has been. It's his basic building block. It also reflects that comment from Barnes that I referred to. But he's not just that. While pass and move is his basic footballing philosophy, if you take time to look at certain aspects of his game, he is still good. I've commented before about his tackling method, which almost exactly mirrors what Paisley said. There's his off the ball movement, which I'll admit I'm not the best person to appreciate, but others who better understand that part of the game say it's good. There's his passing technique, which is probably the one area of the game which I can talk about with any claim to practical knowledge, which is also good. There's his heading ability, and tribute enough is paid by opposition managers when they pull off their bruisers who've been nullified by Lucas. And most of all, there's his attitude, which is as close to perfect as I've ever seen from any footballer.

Combine all these things together, and compare them with what Shankly and Paisley have said about what they look for in a footballer. They were talking about Lucas, down to almost every detail.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Ha ha.

Best moment of a pretty shit week. Gave me a smuggo chuckle anyroad.

Watching Barnesey on LFCtv talking about Lucas. Reckons Lucas is playing no different now from what he's done from the very start and his initial doubters and critics have merely jumped on the bandwagon of the myth of improved form to justify their initial doubt/criticism.

The man's clearly re-writing history eh V?

 

barnsey is bang on.

that first season he was excellent in a number of games....even though there were clearly problems with other players who were brought up differently in the game in the team....ie.on another wavelength...a charlie hughes one.

not every game he reached the peak of the newcastle away (his finest 90 minutes for us ) game or the chelsea away game carling cup (v essien lampard and mikel.....his finest half of football for us to date) but he was still adapting to the pace and physical differences.
he still had the same inttelligence he has now.he still won loads of "nicking the ball" tackles he does now
he still won loads of headers like he does now
his first time passing is still top notch like it is now.

nothing much has changed except he can coe with a whole season of rough and tumble charlie hughes style opponents and his team mates understand what he is about.

so well in barnsey...you always were a legend for us

[Timbo's Goals]

how the hell this turned into a Lucas thread I dont know

Hmm..difficult one that ...er let me hazard a guess.

Er...I think it has possibly stemmed from some rather quite timid poster with a name beginning with the letter V using the mythical  'transformation' of Lucas the player as a prime example of his own "trusting the manager's opinion of a player's ability" rather than what he'd seen with his own eyes to justify his own 'belief in Kenny whatever ' mantra. And then, when challenged on this apparent inconsistency in his argument, unleashing his 'ordinary fan impossibility to spot ability" theorem rather than having the grace to admit that perhaps some fans might just have been correct in their assertion of noticing off their own bat that Lucas from the start did, indeed, possess some definitive quality without actually doing so in order simply to do an Eddie Calvert impression but merely to illustrate that perhaps there is after all more than one fuckin poster on these godforsaken boards who knows what they're talking about.

You, sir, are one fuckin corker.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

I've got it on in the background he's now just said Downing has played reallly well and was the bright spark in the last two games....... really John?

 

I kind of thought you might spot that if you'd watched the programme. It did sort of undermine his credibility.

Right, can't have any compromise - press Vulmea mode button.

Fuckin knobhead - he was talking about the England games not ours.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

barnsey is bang on.

that first season he was excellent in a number of games....even though there were clearly problems with other players who were brought up differently in the game in the team....ie.on another wavelength...a charlie hughes one.

not every game he reached the peak of the newcastle away (his finest 90 minutes for us ) game or the chelsea away game carling cup (v essien lampard and mikel.....his finest half of football for us to date) but he was still adapting to the pace and physical differences.
he still had the same inttelligence he has now.he still won loads of "nicking the ball" tackles he does now
he still won loads of headers like he does now
his first time passing is still top notch like it is now.

nothing much has changed except he can coe with a whole season of rough and tumble charlie hughes style opponents and his team mates understand what he is about.

so well in barnsey...you always were a legend for us

Sorry, GI - I agree wholeheartedly. The last comment was sarcasm aimed at mister fuckin know it all on here. As you might now have gleaned.

 

[vivabobbygraham]

Hmm..difficult one that ...er let me hazard a guess.

Er...I think it has possibly stemmed from some rather quite timid poster with a name beginning with the letter V using the mythical  'transformation' of Lucas the player as a prime example of his own "trusting the manager's opinion of a player's ability" rather than what he'd seen with his own eyes to justify his own 'belief in Kenny whatever ' mantra. And then, when challenged on this apparent inconsistency in his argument, unleashing his 'ordinary fan impossibility to spot ability" theorem rather than having the grace to admit that perhaps some fans might just have been correct in their assertion of noticing off their own bat that Lucas from the start did, indeed, possess some definitive quality without actually doing so in order simply to do an Eddie Calvert impression but merely to illustrate that perhaps there is after all more than one fuckin poster on these godforsaken boards who knows what they're talking about.

You, sir, are one fuckin corker.

 

Now then Timbo.

I think what Vulmea has been alluding to all along stems back from what the subroc said and that was Lucas improved because the fans were behind him or something along those lines and is the residue of that rather than one post taken in isolation. There may well have been some fans who thought he was the business early doors and I believe you when you say you were one of them. You were, my friend, one of the original few and should be applauded for that. I wasn't and believe Kenny has been instrumental in turning him in to the near complete player he is now. He is not, and in my opinion never was, a player better going forward as his supporters were saying way back then. Those managers who believed in him early doors saw a DM and that is what he has become and a damn fine one at that with plenty of improvement left in him. He listens, he learns and is not afraid of putting in the hard graft to achieve excellence. Bit like Keegan was don't you think?

[Timbo's Goals]

Now then Timbo.

You're right VBG.

Cheap shots should be left to V. And V alone. After all, nobody does them better.

 

[vivabobbygraham]

You're right VBG.

Cheap shots should be left to V. And V alone. After all, nobody does them better.

 

I was just saying 'now then, Timbo'  as opposed to tut tut   

[Vulmea]

Hmm..difficult one that ...er let me hazard a guess.

Er...I think it has possibly stemmed from some rather quite timid poster with a name beginning with the letter V using the mythical  'transformation' of Lucas the player as a prime example of his own "trusting the manager's opinion of a player's ability" rather than what he'd seen with his own eyes to justify his own 'belief in Kenny whatever ' mantra. And then, when challenged on this apparent inconsistency in his argument, unleashing his 'ordinary fan impossibility to spot ability" theorem rather than having the grace to admit that perhaps some fans might just have been correct in their assertion of noticing off their own bat that Lucas from the start did, indeed, possess some definitive quality without actually doing so in order simply to do an Eddie Calvert impression but merely to illustrate that perhaps there is after all more than one fuckin poster on these godforsaken boards who knows what they're talking about.

You, sir, are one fuckin corker.

 

ahh I see now - I didn't recognise your scouting ability or your ability to see into the future  - my apologies -  it's all clear now,  well I mean its clear why I didn't see it

the mythical transformation of Lucas - good touch - I'm definately out on a limb with that one now you have JB on you side its a proven fact he's as good now as he was then and so we dont believe the lad himself, we've learnt nothing about his mental strength,  he hasn't actually put on the half stone he claims he has or improved his fitness and all round play .......these myths can be damn pesky

oddly enough as my post says the programme was on in the background - can't comment on the england games can't stand them - was he 'really good' in those games as JB suggested, did he comment at all on how he's been doing for us?

what was Didi's take on the mythical Lucas improvement?

I thought I mentioned half a dozen players in the trusting the manager bit - for some reason you seem to have focussed on lucas - when it could have been any number of players - didn't know it was such a sore point but hey ho I live and learn unlike some eh?

I'm inconsistent because I trust others views (better informed and more experienced people any way) over my own but I'm a know it all..........I couldn't see how great Lucas was after one game but others could and I'm the know it all....mmmm - nope struggling with those basic concepts

also can you explain the inconsistency between trusting the manager and er trusting the manager rather than you own eyes - that seems consistent........think you were having one of your bad moments there

'your own eyes' are massively over rated you have a tendency to see what you want to see - the campaign against Lucas being  a prime example - sorry just re-read this this is not a dig at you specifically but everybody as in the evidence of your own eyes....the police stats on the wrong people being picked out in line ups for example is horrifying

are you still of the subroc school of not making it personal? you appear to have a problem with me which is disapointing I thought we were getting on betterer?

keep on smiling

[Timbo's Goals]

I was just saying 'now then, Timbo'  as opposed to tut tut   

 

Was in the supermarket earlier today on the pretext of shopping but really hoping to see gordon wallace and ask him about our Bobby. I'm getting the distinct impression he must have changed his shopping day to avoid me pestering him. Either that or he's disguising himself. 

[vivabobbygraham]

Was in the supermarket earlier today on the pretext of shopping but really hoping to see gordon wallace and ask him about our Bobby. I'm getting the distinct impression he must have changed his shopping day to avoid me pestering him. Either that or he's disguising himself. 

I reckon your first impression was correct.  . No reason but I just love this smiley and use it randomly 

[steveeastend]

Ha ha.

Best moment of a pretty shit week. Gave me a smuggo chuckle anyroad.

Watching Barnesey on LFCtv talking about Lucas. Reckons Lucas is playing no different now from what he's done from the very start and his initial doubters and critics have merely jumped on the bandwagon of the myth of improved form to justify their initial doubt/criticism.

The man's clearly re-writing history eh V?

 

Ha, great guy that John Barnes! Always liked him, remembering him defending Rafa and his tactics being the main reason for us for being able to compete with the likes of Chelsea and ManU because we weren´t able to pay similar wages and fees...

He just knows football!

[Matt8Pie]

Why does the official site post articles about who we're linked to from newspapers? The main site has an article saying we're linked to Eric Abidal according to the Mirror. Surely they have a bit of insight as to who's on a watch list and there's no point in them fuelling rumours in this way? Or is it simply a method to try drive traffic into the site?