Topic: New signings and progress

[RedRush]

@Pacman - is that you NASA?

With all due respect Redrush I can't agree

its  a question thats irked me for a while - do those posting on the forum have any responsibility as 'supporters' ?

My personal view is that if your a supporter , your a supporter - doesn't matter if your in the pub with yer mates, at the match or on the forum - sure you can voice your concerns - seeing Carroll trying to learn a new game hasn't been great - but there's a difference between saying - you aint sure he's going to be able to adapt his game and saying he's shit and will never make it here - its the difference between supporting and not supporting - between being part of the club pissing out and outside it pissing in -

where or how does calling our own players shit help the club? it doesn't. Its about self gratification and thats all, puting yourself and your entitled opinion above the club you say you support.

You're referring to one or two posters I'm sure, since I'm actually supportive of Carroll. Other's voicing a concern haven't done so on similar tones, just voicing a concern. I don't think anybody's putting themselves above the club when voicing a valid concern about the team. The right step would then be trying to refute the validity of the concern rather than to resort to attacking the poster. That was and still is, the main reason I posted.
 

Also your recollections of last year aint the finest - we lost our last two games, got spanked by west ham and drew with wigan - but you are right to point out that fans just remember what they want to - the fulham game for example often held up as a great example of our beautiful play - we could have been 5 up at half time but at the start of the 2nd half we were hanging on, another goal for Fulham and who knows what would have happened and they had chances - instead we bury a chance against the run of play and cruise to victory - small margins.

Why does it have to be this way, attacking my memory? I was referring to the six names I mentioned. They were a joy when they played together. I haven't forgotten the spanking at West Ham or the draw with Wigan, the loss to Spurs at home or to Villa away, but those games had the likes of Joe Cole, Ngog, Carroll playing in them in another system so no point in mentioning them. Against Fulham, we took off Meireles right after halftime, and our impetus did suffer a little. Against Wigan, we were actually quite good and hit the post twice.
 

another issue - I'm not saying we would be 2nd if we'd had some undeserved luck - we'd be 2nd if we'd had an average amount of luck - we've created more chances than any other team and conceeded fewer chances than the rest - thats not wishful thinking, thats not everybody being in the same boat,  they are the independently assessed facts - our finishing has been risible but we've also seen two keepers play blinders against us and then throw the ball in their own net the next game, we've hit the woodwork 12 times and missed 2 pens - there the type of stats you should see at the end of the season - convert those draws and the defeat at Stoke into what our 'terrible' performances actually deserved and we'd be comfortably second - convert Newcastles games into what they've deserved acording to their own fans and they'd be mid table, or Chelsea, or United or Spurs into what they've deserved and they'd have fewer points than now and on those margins our fans are getting the hump about the new signings and new style of play not working.

I agree on this. We've had bad luck so far. I've actually written in my previous posts that we are where we are because of our profligacy, that we are indeed creating  loads of chances. But for great goalkeeping by two visiting goalies and the number of shots hitting posts, we could have been up there in 2nd place. I'd still notice that Downing goes missing in games, that Adam or Downing tends to be either out of position a number of times or looked half-arsed when defending though. Just as I've noticed that with Kelly and Johnson both out, and Skrtel playing at rightback against Gareth Bale, perhaps we'd have done better having Kuyt start at rightwing instead of Henderson since he can provide excellent cover. No, a better example would be when we're winning, and I guess I have to pick the Arsenal game. They were on the ropes, and it took the mobility of Raul and the craft of Suarez introduced in the 71st minute to finally go on and win it. What I'm saying is that, irregardless of whether we win or not, we should be able to point out the things we are noticing, and right now, I'm noticing that Downing and Adam are defensively inadequate. I'm also noticing that teams like Swansea, Norwich, Sunderland, Wolves can outplay us in midfield somehow. Is that not a fact? Don't get me wrong, I'm as excited about our attack as the next guy, but defensively we're not working. Tell me why.
 

Suddenly all our performances are shit when actually we've played some great football in virtualy every game we've played. Against West Brom which was one of our poorest games in terms of football played - it was the first time we'd come from behind under Kenny this spell - - that includes the glory days of last season - isn't that progress? We battered Stoke and still lost as opposed to not turning up and being walked all over last season isn't that progress, we battered Norwich as opposed to getting outplayed by Blackpool, we've won at Arsenal for the first time in a gazillion years, beaten Everton as opposed  to getting humiliated by them, outplayed United............

I've never said that our performances were shit. I'm just saying that while we looked very good in attack, we were also very vulnerable in defence. Against Sunderland, we were great in the first half because Sunderland froze. But when they came out 2nd half and played the game they could, we were outplayed in midfield. We were magnificent against Bolton and Stoke, started badly against Spurs which resulted in a terrible defeat and two sending off, Started well against Wolves but got outplayed in midfield 2nd half but incidentally Carroll had his best overall game for us despite not scoring here, played so-so against Everton prior to Rodwell's dismissal, played superbly against the Mancs with Dirk Kuyt and Stevie G in the starting lineup, superb against Norwich 1st half could have buried them 4-0 but for the woodwork and then getting ourselves outplayed in midfield again in the 2nd half, started well against Swansea but found ourselves struggling in midfield again in the 2nd half.
 
As for those games against Stoke and Blackpool and Everton last year, why mention them in the context of what we're talking about? It's not like we're in any form of disagreement that Roy was a total disaster for our club. And as I've mentioned, despite winning at Arsenal, there were cause for concern as well, namely our overreliance on Suarez's brilliance. As for United, we also outplayed United last season, even beating them.
 
Progress? Sure. We're stronger now as a squad. The disagreement is only in terms of blooding the new players at the expense of players who deserves to play, and as vivabobbygraham has eloquently put, Kenny getting the blooding of the new recruits over and done with as soon as possible as opposed to the slow integration that most teams, even Barcelona, have a way of doing.
 

the idea that 'loyal' fans can't see issues with the current side is nonsense - clearly there are issues - but lets keep some perspective here -  Pacman calls it gelling - but its more  than that - we're trying to teach players how to play a new style of football - thats not just getting used to each other but also to where they've got to be and when.

Has Carroll ever been told to drop deep or cross the ball before? I doubt it - why is he being asked to do it now? I dont know but nor do most other people on here - but whilst I'm prepared to wait and see what the fuck Kenny is up to - some masterminds  on here already know and have written it off having never even seen him in training, to me thats the difference between trusting the manager and slagging him off between support and self indulgence.  Does trusting Kenny make you a super supporter - no - it should make you a normal one - those who are slagging him off on the other hand

Truth is Kenny probably doesn't even know if it will work, just that he wants it to work to allow him to play as  he wants to play - and as supporters, having been asked to be in this togther I think its our responsibility to support him rather than bottle it and start crying about how its not working and how we know better because we're season ticket holders....

the alternative is what? I'm entitled to my view, I've paid my money, I know what I'm seeing - fuckin nonsense - yeah you've a view but you've also got a responsibility - try putting the two things together and grow a pair - give the club the benefit of the doubt rather than your opinion - be part of something bigger than your own ego - stand with and for the club not against it.

no argument with constructive criticism - have  a debate about whether Carroll has the mobility, agility or vision to play the kind of role he's being asked to - all for that - but dont just spout forth shite about how poor our players are and how the manager does not know what he's doing but you do because you've got a season ticket and have seen the player for 6 games  this year...........

Not my point of view. A rant against Timbo's Goals so I should leave it as it is.
 

then there's your idea that these new signings are somehow going to integrate into a new team and style of play whilst sitting on the bench being used as subs - how exactly does  that work? In the auld days the reserves existed for that type of integration - we dont have that opportunity anymore.

It's not my idea. It's how new players are generally blooded into a system without losing shape - one at a time. The season is long and there will always be chances for integration. It's how most teams do it, even Barcelona. When you throw all your new signings on, without a proper pre-season, then that's called taking a calculated risk that the players are actually good enough to play a certain way. When doing so in such a critical (critical as in CL qualification and more options to buy the best players in the world) season as this year with so many contenders, then it's a huge gamble. I'd say it's not worked out as well as we wished, but it also isn't a complete disaster. Much better if Kenny proves all his doubters to be dumb-asses in the end!
 

Meanwhile the brilliant players from last year (Kuyt - the same kuyt who is slated mercilessly every game, Aquilani who's girlfriend insisted he return to Italy, Meireles who wanted double his money and was a fringe player at the end of last season) should be maruading through the opposition - again its all about seeing what you want to see. If Henderson, Carroll, Downing and Adam are going to succeed they'll need to play and learn - or play and fail - but 12 games - 12 games which should,  not could, should have seen us 2nd aren't enough - just like there not enough to say enrique is the answer at left back - no doubt Suarez will be cited as fitting straight in - one reason for that is Suarez plays the same wherever he is - he isn't fitting in, people  fit in with him - especially Carroll - same happened with Torres  when we structured the side around him. 

I'm curious. Don't you think that Kuyt/Maxi/Spearing/Lucas/Suarez/Meireles worked brilliantly as a team last year in nullifying attacks once Kenny took over? Do you see that we're getting overrun in midfield this year by lowly teams more often than not? If your views are so different that mine, is it than the case of both of us seeing what we want to see instead of just me seeing what I want to see? If you see what I see - in the sense that we're getting outplayed in midfield this year, then there's a valid concern, right? Again, if you noticed, not once did I say that our attack sucks, but you seem to think that I preferred last year's team because I think that they are better in attack, i.e. marauding through ther opposition. No! I think they play more as a team and are better in defence! I also happen to think that our attack's fine this year. A case of you seeing what you want to see in my posts? I normally abhor this kind of tit-for-tat argument, but I have to do this to show you because you fired the first shot.
 
As for Suarez, he fits in because he works hard at it, and because he's got the technical ability.
 

Also on Downing being  a good player - he is but so where the likes of Ray Houghton, Craig Johnston, Kevin MacDonald, Barney Rubble - a good team can turn good players into top players - not every player has to be a superstar to be part of a top team - I'd agree he was a safe buy - but we needed a reliable, left sided  player - something we've lacked - Riera was ok and part of the team that could maybe should have won the title - Downing is no worse than him and to my mind more conistent and harder working.

Again I agree he's a good player, but for us, his head hasn't been quite right. He'd pop up with magic and then disappear in the same game, like against Sunderland, and too often he'd occupy the same spaces as Enrique or when we lose the ball, there'd then be a large space behind him. I, more than anyone else, believe that not every player has to be a superstar. I think that's very evident in my posts so far, and I actually think Maxi/Spearing should play ahead of Downing/Adam. I am wrong of course, because there's no way I can know about the form of each player for every game and only Kenny knows of course. However, my point has always been that maybe the integration could have been done differently, maybe some players weren't chosen on merit but for team development, that maybe the defensive frailties of some of the players are a cause for concern, that it is alright to voice concerns in a thread without being accused of not being proper supporters.
 
And I really don't have time to do this. So I hope that if you disagree with my posts above, then we'll just have to agree to disagree as I really don't have the time to post too much. In fact we both are happy that Kenny's in charge and I think nobody's asking for Kenny's head. Cheers Vulmea for giving the time.

[RedRush]

I believe the Lucas analogy is an appropriate one in the context of what we were discussing. It was not directed personally at you but as a response to some of the shizer posted on here by the odd few. I stated earlier there are definite grounds for discussion over timing and ability of the players being castigated. I do not share your concerns; as I've said, I am very comfortable with Kenny's strategy so I won't repeat.

Reading the excellent post from VULMEA (spot on mate) I can't add anything other than to reiterate what I've said, rather Kenny finds out about the new players during a game than in and out of the side or from the bench. Dirk, Maxi and even Bellamy are squad players now rather than nailed on 1st team. Whether or not you agree with it is neither here nor there, it's a fact. If by Xmas the team is misfiring or it is palpably obvious it is not working we have 3 top players to step in while we go into the market again. I hope we do so looking to strengthen rather than consolidate for moving the team forward over time is what Kenny's remit is and not to win the title this year. 4th would be excellent but in my view, not essential as he is on a 3 year contract and is the only man for the job. If we start fart arsing around with a new manager every season then we are dead in the water.

All that said, and in answer to your final question, who is the arbiter of what Kenny's best available team is? It's a guess depending on your pov. For anyone to assume they know what the best available team is smacks of football manager and I don't go down that road. I look at the opposition, are we home or away, who's fit, who's in form, who's out, all the usual things and then I hazard a guess. But I never assume I know. I do, however, know this, after being privileged to follow the team (far more blinkeredly then) when Kenny was playing and in charge, I've learned one thing , when it comes to Kenny's team selection...never assume anything!

Finally, lest we forget, every player in the squad has had a go this season, it's not like everyone has been gathering splinters on the bench. 12 league and the Carling cup has seen a lot of changes overall. We have a strong squad now, something we have not be able to say for a long time, some are bound to be more disappointed than others. It's about the collective not the individual

The question was in regards to your statement that you were comfortable with Kenny's strategy to blood all the new recruits in one go. That was why I asked if you thought that it was a long term developmental strategy at the expense of playing his best team. If you think he's been playing his best team so far, fair enough, but that's hardly called a strategy, hence my final question about your thoughts. Don't take it as a slight against Kenny. Clearly no mere football supporter can ever be better than Kenny at picking out a team, and I think most supporters know that for a fact (I hope so) except for the most deluded ones.

PS: I've also supported Liverpool for a long time now, when Sir Bob was in charge in fact. I should also add that there has also been many managerial mistakes and buys that didn't work out under Sir Bob, Joe, and Dalglish in his first incarnation as our manager. I guess I'm just trying to say that even the best managers do make mistakes. Nobody's suggesting they are better than the managers when they're picking teams or pointing out mistakes in a pub previously (and that's way before Football Manager or whatever computer games the young play nowadays) or in an internet forum currently, they are just voicing out what they think. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are just plain wrong. I think it is better to engage and to refute a point you feel is wrong by logic, rather than using the standard fall back that the manager (Kenny or anyone else) is better than everyone else and therefore he is right. Smacks of religious logic but hey, football is a religion no? 

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market.
its a fact of management

players who may be good might mot fit in for various reasons.

maybe certain things were missed when assesing a player.

[Mutton Geoff]

That's it though, isn't it? We paid premium fees and our best defence is that the players may be worth it some time in the future (but not now). Then compare with Enrique, who looks to be worth more than we paid for him. Suarez? So perhaps we could have had another 20-40M to spend in January.

How about spending 35M on Ba in January? He has done about as much as Carroll had last season. It might pay off in the future. Good deal?

Isn't going for Ba a danger of going for this years hot shot, short-term thinking, also he is scoring well now but didn't Stoke turn him down because something showed up in his medical ?

[subroc]

What do you think our style will eventually be if and when these new players mature? Will we go back to an improved version of the type of game we played at the tail end of last year - more of the type of clever runs by Meireles and Kuyt, energetic pressing and harassing, dominating midfield capable of shutting down opponents raids kind of game? Or have we bought players for a different kind of game altogether?

I suspect that the idea is that Henderson will become a younger and more inventive english Meireles, while Carroll will be the big target man foil to Suarez. Adam meanwhile is supposed to be like Alonso. So it may have been meant to be like the best of Benitez' teams but with the option of more power upfront in addition to a pass and move attacking game.

[Mutton Geoff]

I suspect that the idea is that Henderson will become a younger and more inventive english Meireles, while Carroll will be the big target man foil to Suarez. Adam meanwhile is supposed to be like Alonso. So it may have been meant to be like the best of Benitez' teams but with the option of more power upfront in addition to a pass and move attacking game.

Adam will never be like Alonso (nobody can be) however he has other qualities, as for Henderson I would like to think the benchmark for him will be Stevie rather than an English Meireles!

[subroc]

Reading the excellent post from VULMEA (spot on mate) I can't add anything other than to reiterate what I've said, rather Kenny finds out about the new players during a game than in and out of the side or from the bench. Dirk, Maxi and even Bellamy are squad players now rather than nailed on 1st team. Whether or not you agree with it is neither here nor there, it's a fact. If by Xmas the team is misfiring or it is palpably obvious it is not working we have 3 top players to step in while we go into the market again. I hope we do so looking to strengthen rather than consolidate for moving the team forward over time is what Kenny's remit is and not to win the title this year. 4th would be excellent but in my view, not essential as he is on a 3 year contract and is the only man for the job. If we start fart arsing around with a new manager every season then we are dead in the water.

All that said, and in answer to your final question, who is the arbiter of what Kenny's best available team is? It's a guess depending on your pov. For anyone to assume they know what the best available team is smacks of football manager and I don't go down that road. I look at the opposition, are we home or away, who's fit, who's in form, who's out, all the usual things and then I hazard a guess. But I never assume I know. I do, however, know this, after being privileged to follow the team (far more blinkeredly then) when Kenny was playing and in charge, I've learned one thing , when it comes to Kenny's team selection...never assume anything!

Finally, lest we forget, every player in the squad has had a go this season, it's not like everyone has been gathering splinters on the bench. 12 league and the Carling cup has seen a lot of changes overall. We have a strong squad now, something we have not be able to say for a long time, some are bound to be more disappointed than others. It's about the collective not the individual

Everyone has had a go, but Downing, Adam and Carrolll are clearly the "A" first choice team. It has always been the approach in Liverpool to progressively bring the enw players in when they are ready. I think what I am proposing, that is to blood them into the team gradually, is consonant with the Liverpool Way as well as not disrupting the balanced and the teamwork that was obtained at such high cost last season.

We cannot afford to wait till Christmas - this season is the most competitive ever for the CL qualification. There are 6 or even 7 teams competing for 4 places. 2 of them are probably out of sight, leaving 2 places to be fought over by 4 or 5 teams. 2 of those teams have more money than we do, are located in London which is mreo attractive to foreign players and have either a better squd or a more attractive style of play than we do.

[RedRush]

Adam will never be like Alonso (nobody can be) however he has other qualities, as for Henderson I would like to think the benchmark for him will be Stevie rather than an English Meireles!

I agree, Adam will never be like Alonso, and I think Hendo was bought to replace Stevie rather than Meireles. For the record I don't think Hendo will ever be like the force of nature that Stevie was either. That midfield that we had was excellent: Mascherano, Alonso, Stevie.

[RedRush]

I suspect that the idea is that Henderson will become a younger and more inventive english Meireles, while Carroll will be the big target man foil to Suarez. Adam meanwhile is supposed to be like Alonso. So it may have been meant to be like the best of Benitez' teams but with the option of more power upfront in addition to a pass and move attacking game.

And Downing an English Riera? Would be exciting if the plan works. I hope Adam can blossom into an Alonso, but at his age, I really doubt it!

[Gnurglan]

Isn't going for Ba a danger of going for this years hot shot, short-term thinking, also he is scoring well now...

Yes. Not suggesting we should actually sign Ba. It was more of a comparison to the Carroll deal. Ba has not shown enough to merit such an investment. Not a chance. It would be all about the future.

[leivapool]

Hi Vivabobbygraham, you have very good points and that is what I like to see.

There's a bit of difference though. Fans aren't labelling the new recruits shit or anything the Lucas-bashers used to do. Many are just pointing out that maybe it would have been better to build on our momentum from last year and blood the new players into the system of play from last year slowly instead of all at once. Many are also lamenting that the players haven't actually dislodged the star performers from last year on merit. I'd like to point out that the fans pointing out the defensive flaws and half-arsed attitude in Downing and Adam are not the same ones that blamed Lucas for everything. I for one, was very supportive of Lucas from the start and I'm supportive of Hendo and Carroll since they are still young and thus potential. So it's a bit unfair to apply the "Lucas-bashers-what-do-they-know" label on all those voicing concerns about players now. It is also a form of name calling, albeit done unwittingly.

This is my biggest frustration this season.  It's that the team unity and momentum we had last season was just thrown out with the bathwater.  There is no way that the TEAM is playing better with Adam and Downing in it, than the one with Maxi and Spearing 2nd half of last season.  They may have some qualities, but the team plays worse with them in.

Xabi Alonso said this in his Guardian interview yesterday:

"It's hard to judge England in South Africa but maybe they failed to gel despite having excellent players. Sometimes it seems the English don't rate those who make the team work rather than standing out themselves. You shouldn't necessarily pick the best players; you have to have a collective identity."


Sound familiar?  It's the reason Carrick and Lucas and players of that ilk are so under-valued in our game, yet consistantly get picked when fit.  This season we have had no collective identity.  We may be picking the best players, but we have no collective unit.  Last season we did, we had 10 outfield players who played as a team, worked together, defended together, and crucially, won together, and Maxi and Spearing were integral to that success.

[subroc]

And Downing an English Riera? Would be exciting if the plan works. I hope Adam can blossom into an Alonso, but at his age, I really doubt it!

Of course I believe that Downing and Adam will never be good enough to bring us back to the elite level again - that is why I think Dlglish and Comiolli really mesed up those transfers. Henderson may be one day, but he is too raw at the moment, and to use him in the first team and to sell Meireles instead to our rivals absolutely flummoxed me.

[subroc]

This is my biggest frustration this season.  It's that the team unity and momentum we had last season was just thrown out with the bathwater.  There is no way that the TEAM is playing better with Adam and Downing in it, than the one with Maxi and Spearing 2nd half of last season.  They may have some qualities, but the team plays worse with them in.

Xabi Alonso said this in his Guardian interview yesterday:

"It's hard to judge England in South Africa but maybe they failed to gel despite having excellent players. Sometimes it seems the English don't rate those who make the team work rather than standing out themselves. You shouldn't necessarily pick the best players; you have to have a collective identity."


Sound familiar?  It's the reason Carrick and Lucas and players of that ilk are so under-valued in our game, yet consistantly get picked when fit.  This season we have had no collective identity.  We may be picking the best players, but we have no collective unit.  Last season we did, we had 10 outfield players who played as a team, worked together, defended together, and crucially, won together, and Maxi and Spearing were integral to that success.

+1

[Timbo's Goals]

Not my point of view. A rant against Timbo's Goals so I should leave it as it is.

I will as well. I've said enough. My deep frustrations with the current situation for the many reasons I've pointed out as politely as possible in many RAWK threads finally got the better of me. It does no good to rant at fellow Reds. We should all strive to be better than that. And I certainly never wanted to become embroiled in some puerile insults competition with fellow Reds who clearly have a devotion to match my own but just happen to see things through an entirely different lens. Besides, yourself and Subroc represent my own sentiments on what has transpired far more eloquently than I could ever do. And besides it's an education reading your posts.

New words for today - Ad Hominem and irenicism - with meanings so pertinent to what's been voiced on here.

  

[Vulmea]

And I really don't have time to do this. So I hope that if you disagree with my posts above, then we'll just have to agree to disagree as I really don't have the time to post too much. In fact we both are happy that Kenny's in charge and I think nobody's asking for Kenny's head. Cheers Vulmea for giving the time.

not sure how to respond here you've asked  several questions and my opinion but ......

My argument isn't about pointing out mistakes , Kenny has clearly made some - he's said so himself - its not about debating the finer points of Adam tiring after 60 minutes or Downing not playing as well as he did at the start of the season thats all fair game

its the conclusions drawn as a consequence - its the slating of the manager and players,  its the overbearing expectation that everything has to be perfect or else its unacceptable

we are bedding in players and a style of football - there are a myriad of  reasons why we may be doing that and why it may not be working perfectly - why not trust that the staff know  what they are doing rather than disrespect and 2nd guess them?

why assume that you know better than they do how to bed in our new players or what style of play suits us when you have no idea about how they want to play and who they want to play it with?  Lets allow them to make their own mistakes not invent them , lets allow them to learn in a supportive atmosphere not one thats critical and fearful

Anfield should be a fortress - its not - we get edgy and scared rather than confident and forceful - thats fans and players- we need to all be in this together - unfortunately the gandhi approach takes time - in the mean time if that takes bashing heads together to get people on the same page......ynwa

[RedRush]

This is my biggest frustration this season.  It's that the team unity and momentum we had last season was just thrown out with the bathwater.  There is no way that the TEAM is playing better with Adam and Downing in it, than the one with Maxi and Spearing 2nd half of last season.  They may have some qualities, but the team plays worse with them in.

Xabi Alonso said this in his Guardian interview yesterday:

"It's hard to judge England in South Africa but maybe they failed to gel despite having excellent players. Sometimes it seems the English don't rate those who make the team work rather than standing out themselves. You shouldn't necessarily pick the best players; you have to have a collective identity."


Sound familiar?  It's the reason Carrick and Lucas and players of that ilk are so under-valued in our game, yet consistantly get picked when fit.  This season we have had no collective identity.  We may be picking the best players, but we have no collective unit.  Last season we did, we had 10 outfield players who played as a team, worked together, defended together, and crucially, won together, and Maxi and Spearing were integral to that success.

It cheered me to read what Xabi Alonso said. Pretty much my thoughts as well. We don't need stand out individuals in each and every position. We just need to have good players that can play well together as a team, creating something far larger than the sum of its parts.
 

Of course I believe that Downing and Adam will never be good enough to bring us back to the elite level again - that is why I think Dlglish and Comiolli really mesed up those transfers. Henderson may be one day, but he is too raw at the moment, and to use him in the first team and to sell Meireles instead to our rivals absolutely flummoxed me.

Aye it and a number of other decisions flummoxed me as well, but I live in hope that Kenny that will fix our flaws. I still have a lot of faith in him, but it's being tested.
 

why assume that you know better than they do how to bed in our new players or what style of play suits us when you have no idea about how they want to play and who they want to play it with? 

It's not right to equate asking one or two questions about decisions or players as signs the average poster thinks he's better than the manager. It's your assumption. Not his or mine. That's a personal attack on the poster rather than engaging in a sensible debate about the points being raised. There's no way an average poster can know better than the manager, even Roy Hodgson for that matter. If anyone thinks he's better than Roy as a football manager, then I'd like to see him manage Fulham or West Brom. That hasn't stopped Roy from making mistakes or for supporters from pointing them out. For what it's worth, this is Kenny we're talking about. Take all the things he's ever forgotten about football, divide it by a thousand, and that's about it, the sum total of things an average football supporter knows. Despite knowing this, and knowing my lowly place, I still believe in voicing my thoughts and being allowed to do so on an internet forum. Perhaps it is due to my personal strong views against all forms of censorship.

[Reds4Life]

Expectations and behaviours.

The most crucial aspects to this discussion.

The reason why this is crucial is that it determines the opinions we formulate, hence why everyone has a different opinion.

What were your expectations of the new signings and how has this driven your behaviour in relation to them?
What was your expectation of the progress we were going to make with all of these new signings and how has this driven your behaviour in relation to the team?

Forget branding people "loyal" and "disloyal" because nothing will be achieved by that but petty squabblings, one-upmanship and general arguments which divide us all as "SUPPORTERS".

We all love Liverpool Football Club, we all want the club to win everything so no need to cause unnecessary division.

Expectations and behaviours.

What are FSG’s to Kenny?
What are Kenny’s to the squad?
What are yours?

Mine?

I expect that we will make the Top 4.
I expect that the squad we are assembling will allow us to achieve more points than the previous season.
I expect the team to be playing football that is indicative of Liverpool Football Club's philosophy
I expect that Kenny and the management team will do what is right by Liverpool Football Club and always put LFC first in decisions
I expect that we will be challenging every year for major honours within 2-3 years with the core of this squad

Are we anyway to ensuring that my expectations are met? I think so. 

I think Kenny is rebuilding HIS team, not Rafa's crushing machine, not OFC dismantling operation, HIS TEAM playing HIS FOOTBALL to LFC's footballing philosophy.

[Red_Rich]

All day Sunday, LFCtv had extended highlights of all our games so far this season.

We played some great stuff for most of the time.

All our new signings did well in most games.

Luck deserted a few of them at times (especially Andy) and a bit of understanding too in some moments in some games.  But it's been about 15 competitive games all told this season.  They're still gettingused to each other.

Yes, there are areas we need to improve - finishing etc - but believe me ... once this team clicks into full tilt, we are going to be a force.  Once we've added another 2 wordlclass players, we are going to be a major force.  I can just sense it.

We're going in the right direction.  JUST SUPPORT THE LADS!!!!!  They'll get there.

[keswick]

For the money we spent on Downing, Henderson and Adam, you can only really say Downing was a true risk. Henderson is very young and unless you have only been listening to commentary, rather than actually watching his performances within the games, then you would have witnessed a very young player with bags of potential. He's not quite there but time is on his side.
Charlie Adam is another not so risky transfer. For the money LFC paid for him, if he doesn't work out then the recuperation of a sell on fee wont be to much of a problem. Now we come to Downing. And may I say, a player I advocated to be playing for Liverpool....Out of the above mentioned he has to be the only risky purchase! At this moment in time, and this is just my opinion, he has struggled playing for a bigger club. With his age and the fee we paid for him, he will be the one that we take a financial hit on!

[jckliew]

IMHO there has been too much chops and changes with the purchase of Downing, Henderson and Adam.
We were having a pretty fine time with Maxi, Kyut, Spearing, Mireles towards the end of least season.

Its been pretty clear that the changes have not brought a better pattern of play and therefore results
thus far.

[Timbo's Goals]

Expectations and behaviours.

Good, positive and reflection inducing post Reds4Life.

For me it's a simple exercise. And it certainly makes it perfectly clear what has determined why I've been so dismayed by what I've been seeing - and I must stress I mean entire performance levels not simply the juiciest highlights as clearly they can be misleading.

I should say I'm using two back to back displays as the example for simplicity not because I'm naive enough to believe you can read everything into two games but because they capture my current disillusionment in a nutshell.

There were a few games last season that had me purring at Kenny's genius and licking my lips with anticipation at what might be ahead of us. However, it was the Fulham game - where we played Kuyt alongside Suarez with Meireles, Lucas, Spearing and Maxi in midfield - that had me doing cartwheels of joy. It was the best football played by any side bar Barca that I witnessed last season. Against a decent team always up for the task on their own midden and capable of beating most opposition it was a sheer delight of determined pressing, harrying, winning back possession and most encouragingly sublime passing, movement, interchanging and finally clinical finishing that saw that wonderful 2-5 away victory and promised us so much.

It was simply a marvellous team performance but if I had to pick one player out whose influence was more crucial than anyone else then I would have to say Dirk Kuyt up front alongside Luis. His pressing and movement and link up play in that forward role as distinct to his reliable but unimaginative wide right displays was for me the pattern setting key for an afternoon of sheer joy that ranked with most I've ever seen.

Six days later the injury to Meireles saw Carroll re-introduced up front against Spurs with Kuyt back to his conventional role wide right. On the night it was as if an entirely different team had taken to the field. I was bitterly disappointed after what I'd seen but I consoled myself by the comforting reassurance that the marked contrast between the two displays made it certain that Kenny would follow the pattern of the Fulham display as the way forward for his team. Sure, it would mean big Andy relegated to a possible plan B role until perhaps he was able to show more - but what the heck - with a few additions we were still set fair for the next season.

So I guess what I witnessed in that game has sort of had me craving all this season so far to see the same sort of formation as that Fulham game and at the same time dreading seeing big Andy's name on the team sheet. So far the only game in which the same formation and players [with Bellamy for the sadly departed Meireles] have been selected was for Brighton in the league cup. Again - for the first half at least - with the same formation and personnel we witnesssed the same sort of exhilarating fluid, pressing and passing football we'd seen down at Fulham. Again, I felt that even though this had been clearly earmarked as kenny's second eleven the quality of what they showed that first half against a half decent side would have Kenny comtemplating using such a line-up as his first choice eleven.

Alas no such luck...

And so...

Expectation? - rational or irrational - and I have to admit the level of hostility in this thread to my own outburst of frustration has meant I'm no longer sure whether it is or isn't rational - it is the above which has determined my own expectation.

Behaviour? - rightly or wrongly for most of the time and certainly at the games I've been outwardly supportive of what's transpired so far but inwardly bemused and disillusioned and possibly I'd say even distressed by it not happening how I envisaged. This thread is the first time I have really let loose my frustrations when one poster - not Vulmea i hasten to add - termed posts from other disillusioned fans simply expressing their dismays [not my own as i hadn't then posted in here] as embarrassing and throwing toys out of the pram.

Having read all the posts of the likes of Vulmea and BobbyGraham and others who maintain the positive spin on things I have to say I find little in their positiveness to reassure me as to why what's been happening has happened. I can still see no pattern nor logic in it. Players I admire for their abilities have either been shifted out - meireles and Aquilani - or cannot command regular places - Kuyt[UP FRONT ] , Maxi, bellamy, Spearing. Meantime, the new signings have taken their own place as apparent first choice as if of divine right. It's not that i don't see that they have their particular qualities. It's simply that from what I have seen they have not shown anything like the same abilities - individually and most certainly collectively - as the ones who have either gone or who cannot command first choice selection.

Of course above anything else I trust Kenny. Of course I know as Vulmea points out that he's forgotten more than all of us on here will ever know about the game. Of course I know that blending and gelling of a bunch of new players can take time [though not necessarily always - Barnesey, beardsley, aldo, mcmahon and houghton]. Also, despite the apparent negativity at the moment I have always been a rose tinted cock-eyed optimist. However, my expectations have not been met. far from it. And my behaviour - ie my severe puzzlement and dismay at what's so far transpired - is I guess governed by the height of those expectations and the amount the actuality has fallen short of them.

If that's out of order then so be it.  Let's just hope that before too long the new signings are proving the doubts of all of us diillusioned folk entirely wrong and unfounded and that we're all singing once again from pretty much the same hymn sheet.     

[vivabobbygraham]

The question was in regards to your statement that you were comfortable with Kenny's strategy to blood all the new recruits in one go. That was why I asked if you thought that it was a long term developmental strategy at the expense of playing his best team. If you think he's been playing his best team so far, fair enough, but that's hardly called a strategy, hence my final question about your thoughts. Don't take it as a slight against Kenny. Clearly no mere football supporter can ever be better than Kenny at picking out a team, and I think most supporters know that for a fact (I hope so) except for the most deluded ones.

PS: I've also supported Liverpool for a long time now, when Sir Bob was in charge in fact. I should also add that there has also been many managerial mistakes and buys that didn't work out under Sir Bob, Joe, and Dalglish in his first incarnation as our manager. I guess I'm just trying to say that even the best managers do make mistakes. Nobody's suggesting they are better than the managers when they're picking teams or pointing out mistakes in a pub previously (and that's way before Football Manager or whatever computer games the young play nowadays) or in an internet forum currently, they are just voicing out what they think. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are just plain wrong. I think it is better to engage and to refute a point you feel is wrong by logic, rather than using the standard fall back that the manager (Kenny or anyone else) is better than everyone else and therefore he is right. Smacks of religious logic but hey, football is a religion no? 

As I tried to explain, obviously not very well, I do not know what Kenny's best team is so cannot answer that rather black and white question, and I ask you, how do you know what Kenny's 'best team' is?

I am speaking in general terms re the football manager analogy and again it was not meant personally yet you take it so? I have consistently stated I hear the argument about timing and ability in the new players whilst not agreeing with it. Again, I have put forward a counter argument that is dissimilar to yours yet you harp on it and hint at 'religious logic.' Dunno mate, you seem a bit zealous in your argument that Kenny is not playing his best team and you know what that 'best team' is. Fair play, you crack on with that and we will agree to disagree.

[vivabobbygraham]

Everyone has had a go, but Downing, Adam and Carrolll are clearly the "A" first choice team. It has always been the approach in Liverpool to progressively bring the enw players in when they are ready. I think what I am proposing, that is to blood them into the team gradually, is consonant with the Liverpool Way as well as not disrupting the balanced and the teamwork that was obtained at such high cost last season.

We cannot afford to wait till Christmas - this season is the most competitive ever for the CL qualification. There are 6 or even 7 teams competing for 4 places. 2 of them are probably out of sight, leaving 2 places to be fought over by 4 or 5 teams. 2 of those teams have more money than we do, are located in London which is mreo attractive to foreign players and have either a better squd or a more attractive style of play than we do.

The Liverpool way was to integrate new players slowly you are right but that was many years ago when patience was a virtue, when the reserves league was competitive and enabled the management to have a long hard look at the player before moving him up to the 1st team. There was also the little matter of continuity already in place. The 1st team (same team as last season) was settled and it took exceptional circumstances for a player to be left out.

Fast forward to now and the instant success mentality as is prevalent today, this forum being a prime example, and the Liverpool way has been resurrected, mostly off the field by the new owners and they way they conduct themselves but also by Kenny in instilling in the squad a passion for the club first and foremost. It has yet to fully transmit to the pitch but that is where the advocating of patience again comes in. Kenny believes in his new players, he is staking his reputation on them. For that he must be given credit and support. While you may not agree with his decisions at least show him the courtesy of giving him space to allow his strategy to take effect.

12 games is nowhere near enough time imo. The Liverpool way is to get behind the manager but more importantly than that, to get behind the players concerned and not castigate them. For me, the problem of our in and out form lies firmly at Anfield where support has been muted in stark contrast to the magnificent following away from home. That tension at Anfield transmits to both sets of players, and has been part of the reason why teams go there and help themselves. What's not to like about playing away at Anfield these days?

[RedRush]

As I tried to explain, obviously not very well, I do not know what Kenny's best team is so cannot answer that rather black and white question, and I ask you, how do you know what Kenny's 'best team' is?

I am speaking in general terms re the football manager analogy and again it was not meant personally yet you take it so? I have consistently stated I hear the argument about timing and ability in the new players whilst not agreeing with it. Again, I have put forward a counter argument that is dissimilar to yours yet you harp on it and hint at 'religious logic.' Dunno mate, you seem a bit zealous in your argument that Kenny is not playing his best team and you know what that 'best team' is. Fair play, you crack on with that and we will agree to disagree.

If you read my post carefully, I wasn't asking that black and white question again. I was merely explaining why I asked it in the first place after your explanation which you did explain very well. As I said, it wasn't meant as a slight against Kenny. I actually thought that you were the one that hinted that perhaps Kenny wasn't picking his best team in preference for team development, hence the question. it's irrelevant if you don't think so!

As for the "Football Manager" thing, I actually agree with it. I was merely explaining that way before there were these games on PC or PS2 or whatever it is that kids play nowadays, people used to pick their own best teams out irregardless of what the manager picks eventually. It's a very popular pasttime down for any football fan down the years. That's hardly me taking it personally.

I think we're both right in our thoughts. You think picking a team that you think is the best team, a common past time among fans down the generation, rather than what Kenny plays, smacks of football manager, and I think that using the standard he's-the-manager-who-are-you fallback as a response without any logical refutation of the point being raised smacks of religious logic, in the sense that religion cannot be questioned.

And again, I've never said I know for sure (who knows? I'm as flummoxed as the next guy) what the best team is, rather that the team from the tail end of last year was very good and perhaps Kenny should have built on that and eased the new players in gradually rather than take a chance that they will perform immediately. You've probably been led astray into reaching that conclusion about me by my question to you (in response to your earlier reply) that is utterly irrelevant now. Not sure if you will read back through my posts to see how we got here as I think it's been a misunderstanding.

[Timbo's Goals]

I think we're both right in our thoughts. You think picking a team that you think is the best team, a common past time among fans down the generation, rather than what Kenny plays, smacks of football manager, and I think that using the standard he's-the-manager-who-are-you fallback as a response without any logical refutation of the point being raised smacks of religious logic, in the sense that religion cannot be questioned.

And again, I've never said I know for sure (who knows? I'm as flummoxed as the next guy) what the best team is, rather that the team from the tail end of last year was very good and perhaps Kenny should have built on that and eased the new players in gradually rather than take a chance that they will perform immediately. You've probably been led astray into reaching that conclusion about me by my question to you (in response to your earlier reply) that is utterly irrelevant now. Not sure if you will read back through my posts to see how we got here as I think it's been a misunderstanding.

Just to come in on this if I may.

Ha - aren't we the polite ones

I don't see this as actually "picking" my best team. I'm sure I may have once in the dim and distant past have had ideas in that regard but I can't recall for the life of me the last time I ever did so.

No, what I'm putting forward is the team that Kenny has selected - or the formation and personnel at least - that in my own opinion has provided the most encouraging performance levels both individually and collectively that I've yet to see during Kenny's brief reign. I'm sure there's a distinction between that and actually picking a team. Got to be, surely. They're all Kenny's when all is said and done.

[RedRush]

Just to come in on this if I may.

Ha - aren't we the polite ones

I don't see this as actually "picking" my best team. I'm sure I may have once in the dim and distant past have had ideas in that regard but I can't recall for the life of me the last time I ever did so.

No, what I'm putting forward is the team that Kenny has selected - or the formation and personnel at least - that in my own opinion has provided the most encouraging performance levels both individually and collectively that I've yet to see during Kenny's brief reign. I'm sure there's a distinction between that and actually picking a team. Got to be, surely. They're all Kenny's when all is said and done.

Actually this "Best Team" thing is a misunderstanding.

I actually think that vivabobbygraham had a good counter argument to my point about building on last years team by integrating the new recruits slowly, although he did mix it with some name-calling (not me though) and typical ad hominem attacks ("Some less worthy would do well to remember that before they spout their bile"). He believed that it was Kenny's strategy to blood all at once and stay with the pack aiming for fourth, and if it doesn't go well by December, there's the top pros to call on, and then there's the January window. All very good points. But by saying that it's an intentional strategy on Kenny's part, and the fact that there's a chance that it will all go wrong and then having to rely on Kuyt/Maxi/Bellamy I thought that perhaps he was suggesting that Kenny wasn't picking his best team, that perhaps Kenny was forgoing that in order to get everyone to gel as quickly as possible, so I asked him what's his best team then. Somehow he took it wrongly that I was thinking that I had the better team in mind compared to Kenny's which wasn't my original intention at all, with the resulting who-are-you-to-know-what's-Kenny's-best-team, and then me replying that I thought such thinking was more religious logic than an attempt to engage, resulting in a conversation that went downhill afterwards.

But you do raise a point. The team at the end of last year played a more balanced brand of football, exciting in attack and tight in defence, is still Kenny's team. Vivabobbygraham's counter argument is that the members of that team is 2nd choice now and we'll all just have to accept that as fact, since it is the King's strategy to blood the new players all in one go. Maybe he's right, that we should all just accept that and shut up and cheer the team on even if deep down inside we think that something's quite wrong?

[Fuzion6]

On Charlie Adam - according to Opta stats he has covered more ground per game this season than any other player. Very interesting...

[vivabobbygraham]

Actually this "Best Team" thing is a misunderstanding.

I actually think that vivabobbygraham had a good counter argument to my point about building on last years team by integrating the new recruits slowly, although he did mix it with some name-calling (not me though) and typical ad hominem attacks ("Some less worthy would do well to remember that before they spout their bile"). He believed that it was Kenny's strategy to blood all at once and stay with the pack aiming for fourth, and if it doesn't go well by December, there's the top pros to call on, and then there's the January window. All very good points. But by saying that it's an intentional strategy on Kenny's part, and the fact that there's a chance that it will all go wrong and then having to rely on Kuyt/Maxi/Bellamy I thought that perhaps he was suggesting that Kenny wasn't picking his best team, that perhaps Kenny was forgoing that in order to get everyone to gel as quickly as possible, so I asked him what's his best team then. Somehow he took it wrongly that I was thinking that I had the better team in mind compared to Kenny's which wasn't my original intention at all, with the resulting who-are-you-to-know-what's-Kenny's-best-team, and then me replying that I thought such thinking was more religious logic than an attempt to engage, resulting in a conversation that went downhill afterwards.

But you do raise a point. The team at the end of last year played a more balanced brand of football, exciting in attack and tight in defence, is still Kenny's team. Vivabobbygraham's counter argument is that the members of that team is 2nd choice now and we'll all just have to accept that as fact, since it is the King's strategy to blood the new players all in one go. Maybe he's right, that we should all just accept that and shut up and cheer the team on even if deep down inside we think that something's quite wrong?

Couple of points. You are editing my words and even making them up in part. I've never called Dirk, Maxi or Bellamy 2nd choice. What I did say was that they were not nailed on 1st team players as Maxi and Dirk may have been considered last season. Secondly, you have taken my;"Some less worthy would do well to remember that before they spout their bile" quote completely out of context, have edited it, excluding the "on both sides of the argument" significant passage and also took it personally which I also said was never my intention.

I thought we were having a discussion but to bastardise what we have said to another poster is a cheap shot. As I said last post, crack on, and we'll agree to disagree

[Timbo's Goals]

I thought we were having a discussion but to bastardise what we have said to another poster is a cheap shot. As I said last post, crack on, and we'll agree to disagree

It's alright Bobby lad your secret's safe with me

 

[Timbo's Goals]

On Charlie Adam - according to Opta stats he has covered more ground per game this season than any other player.

Well that's fucked that one up then huh.

 

[vivabobbygraham]

It's alright Bobby lad your secret's safe with me

 

Nod, nod, wink,  , say no more 

[Timbo's Goals]

Maybe he's right, that we should all just accept that and shut up and cheer the team on even if deep down inside we think that something's quite wrong?

I'm sure the likes of yourself and Subroc - like myself - do that game in game out regardless of how it is you're actually viewing matters. As we've maintained in exhausting the fuckin thing to death - there's got to be a massive distinction between supporting your team whatever transpires and having an opinion about whatever it is that is transpiring.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

Nod, nod, wink,  , say no more 

I can't remember if I asked you - but have you heard anything about bobby in recent years? I assume he's okay. I still see Goron wallace around now and again - in the supermarket ! The only dyed in the wool Scot I've ever come across with the broadest South wales accent you could find. I've never actually asked him if he keeps in touch with Bobby.

 

[Vulmea]

It's not right to equate asking one or two questions about decisions or players as signs the average poster thinks he's better than the manager. It's your assumption. Not his or mine. That's a personal attack on the poster rather than engaging in a sensible debate about the points being raised. There's no way an average poster can know better than the manager, even Roy Hodgson for that matter. If anyone thinks he's better than Roy as a football manager, then I'd like to see him manage Fulham or West Brom. That hasn't stopped Roy from making mistakes or for supporters from pointing them out. For what it's worth, this is Kenny we're talking about. Take all the things he's ever forgotten about football, divide it by a thousand, and that's about it, the sum total of things an average football supporter knows. Despite knowing this, and knowing my lowly place, I still believe in voicing my thoughts and being allowed to do so on an internet forum. Perhaps it is due to my personal strong views against all forms of censorship.

But we all use an ambiguous and imprecise language called engish which leaves many things up to interpretation- lets look at one of your earlier pieces

"It's not my idea. It's how new players are generally blooded into a system without losing shape - one at a time. The season is long and there will always be chances for integration. It's how most teams do it, even Barcelona. When you throw all your new signings on, without a proper pre-season, then that's called taking a calculated risk that the players are actually good enough to play a certain way. When doing so in such a critical (critical as in CL qualification and more options to buy the best players in the world) season as this year with so many contenders, then it's a huge gamble. I'd say it's not worked out as well as we wished, but it also isn't a complete disaster. Much better if Kenny proves all his doubters to be dumb-asses in the end!"


Is this critical or supportive of management? Does it show a tolerance of ideas and an open mind or is it suggesting your mind is made up and something has to happen to change it?
The argument you present is entirely one way and asks simply for blind faith to support Kenny. You may think what you've written is neutral - it isn't its very one sided all of the emphasis is against what the management team have done.

Timbo shows at least one example when a group of signings thrown in together worked - Aldo, Beardsley, Houghton, Barnes, Kenny did the same at Blackburn - why not balance it with examples of where it worked - why not state that Barca are adding to an established quality side whilst we had to bring in half a new team, why not mention that some of our players are past thirty and we need to look to the future, that any plans Kenny had may have been disrupted by Gerrards extended absence, the international breaks at lunatic times.

Kenny is placed in a position where he has to prove his doubters and dumb asses wrong rather than people trusting what he is doing will come good. Thats the whole point its about giving Kenny the support he needs to get it right not the environment of doubt and judgement we currently have which does not help. add to that the criticsim of individual players, the recent boing and you can see a storm brewing a kin to the Rafa hate him/love him travesty we went through before. We've forgoten how to support not least because of the idea that everybody has a right to express their views - but that freedom in all walks of life should come with a responsibility for those views. On the internet no such responsibility exists - its faceless and yet as we know it is neither unheard or inconsequential.

Of course people are entitled to their own views - thats not the debate - its whether supporters should allow those frustrations and negative thoughts to create a atmosphere in which its harder to succeeed than fail - where the benefit of the doubt goes to their own fears rather than the management team - its a subtle shift away from support but its a shift away.

Kenny isn't omnipotent the side may not 'ge'l his tactics may be wrong,  he may be asking too much of individuals (he has a tendency to do this ) but he should be given the time for his plans toi work - 12 games isn't that time, especially 12 games where an average amount of luck could have seen us 2nd . Oddly enough there were those who were vehemently against signing Barnes, who said Aldo could never cut it in the top flight, who thought Houghton lacked the class to succeed with us .... they were proven wrong and had to eat humble pie but that helps no one - much better that there was no humble pie - far better not to have to say sorry or be a dumb ass -

[Cadno]

On Charlie Adam - according to Opta stats he has covered more ground per game this season than any other player. Very interesting...

Does not really surprise me, when he charges out of the defensive line only to get passed around he then has to jog/walk back again.  Covers twice as much distance in the same move as any other player because he runs forward only to have to go back again. 

Mabye that's what's wrong and he is trying too hard and trying to do everything himself instead of trusting his team mates

[leivapool]

On Charlie Adam - according to Opta stats he has covered more ground per game this season than any other player. Very interesting...

Surely this is one of the most meaningless stas ever.  A player can run all over the picth, doing nothing effective whatsoever (headless chicken analogy)  and get the distance covered award.  Another player may run less, but actually be effective in his running, closing down players, tracking opoosition runners, etc.  Furthermore, it is significantly easier to trundle around a puitch for 90 mins, often chasing behind the attacking player who has skipped by you oh too easily than it is to sprint short distances regularly.  The jogger may have more miles, but the sprinter has put in more effort - try sprinting for more than a minute and you'll see what I'm saying.  Dirk Kuyt is incredibly fit, according to this stat he doesn't run as far as Charlie, but Darren Burgess recently said that Dirk sprints over a kilometer in a match.  Sprinting is very hard to sustain, jogging isn't.  It's quality of work that matters, not amount of in this case.

[Fuzion6]

Surely this is one of the most meaningless stas ever.  A player can run all over the picth, doing nothing effective whatsoever (headless chicken analogy)  and get the distance covered award.  Another player may run less, but actually be effective in his running, closing down players, tracking opoosition runners, etc.  Furthermore, it is significantly easier to trundle around a puitch for 90 mins, often chasing behind the attacking player who has skipped by you oh too easily than it is to sprint short distances regularly.  The jogger may have more miles, but the sprinter has put in more effort - try sprinting for more than a minute and you'll see what I'm saying.  Dirk Kuyt is incredibly fit, according to this stat he doesn't run as far as Charlie, but Darren Burgess recently said that Dirk sprints over a kilometer in a match.  Sprinting is very hard to sustain, jogging isn't.  It's quality of work that matters, not amount of in this case.

I agree with you...sprinting stats would be more useful. However it still shows he does cover ground and doesn't just do nothing all game...

[west_london_red]

Yes, there are areas we need to improve - finishing etc - but believe me ... once this team clicks into full tilt, we are going to be a force.  Once we've added another 2 wordlclass players, we are going to be a major force.  I can just sense it.

We have been after those two world class players for longer then I can remember now. Also, how do you get world class players to joing a non-world class team?

[leivapool]

I agree with you...sprinting stats would be more useful. However it still shows he does cover ground and doesn't just do nothing all game...

Indeed.  I don' think posters think Adam does nothing, I think some get frustrated with the quality of what he does.  He does, as another poster has pointed out, run out when we get the ball on the attack, but is often ignored.  So, why is this?  Is Adam in the wrong position to receive the pass?  He does then attempt to press, but a little ineffectually and opposition players tend to just skip past him.  We then see him jogging back behind the player with the ball, and we hope Lucas will cover.  When Adam attacks, he doesn't bust a gut to get back if we lose the ball, unlike say Kuyt or Bellamy.  So yes, Adam jogs plenty, but defensively his distance covered stat doesn't amount to much useful input for the team.

[Red_Mist]

Of course people are entitled to their own views - thats not the debate - its whether supporters should allow those frustrations and negative thoughts to create a atmosphere in which its harder to succeeed than fail - where the benefit of the doubt goes to their own fears rather than the management team - its a subtle shift away from support but its a shift away.

Great post, all of it.