Topic: Stoke 1 - 0 Liverpool (Walters) Sept 10th KO 3PM

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

It's alright, you're boss hugo.

[Torpedo Tommy]

It was a penalty, and a clear one. What Carra was doing so horrifically out of position, miles behind play and apparently unaware that by stepping up Walters would have been miles offside I don't know, but once the pass came through Carra got caught off balance, started to fall and quite clearly had his arm around Walters' waist and was dragging him down.

The referee also had that front on view which showed Carra's arm on him, clear as day.

Absolute stone-waller, much more so than any of our shouts, though to be fair at least one of Skrtel's or that first hand-ball should have been given.

So what you are saying is as soon as a player puts a hand on another and breaks his momentum then its a free-kick / penalty?  Ok.  Explain how 'Carra got caught off balance'

[classycarra]

Disagree with all of that. The still image makes the offence look far worse than a real time clip. Secondly, it's never a red card, and thirdly, if Carroll had done that he would have been penalised- as he was against Sunderland.

no it doesnt, at all. i get the impression you know that though. an image doesnt show movement

the real time clip shows the offence far better, obviously, and in that you can see walters body being dragged sideways in a way you couldnt move without being pulled.

given that its a foul that was given, it was a goalscoring opportunity and that carragher was clearly the last man the rulebook states it was a red card offence. youre off hand dismissal as never a red card doesnt offer any explanation as to why. i tihnk you just dont want to accept it

[smicer07]

no it doesnt, at all. i get the impression you know that though. an image doesnt show movement

the real time clip shows the offence far better, obviously, and in that you can see walters body being dragged sideways in a way you couldnt move without being pulled.

given that its a foul that was given, it was a goalscoring opportunity and that carragher was clearly the last man the rulebook states it was a red card offence. youre off hand dismissal as never a red card doesnt offer any explanation as to why. i tihnk you just dont want to accept it

Back to goal isn't a goalscoring opportunity. Has to be going towards goal.

[Torpedo Tommy]

if you watch that video rather than use a still image, you'd see that the hand isnt placed on a player. its wrapped half way around his body and you can clearly see that it's pulling/dragging walters. no question that it's a foul

the only way it isn't a penalty is if walters fouled carragher but i don't think he did.  we'd all be furious if the ref called that a foul if it was carroll in walters' place.

if you consider the rulebook, carragher could and probably should have been red carded too so i dont think we have any cause for complaining about that single decision

"the only way it isn't a penalty is if walters fouled carragher but i don't think he did"- he did.  Moments before Carragher tried to get his body back in pole position Walters grabbed hold of his arm which, technically, is a foul

"if you consider the rulebook, carragher could and probably should have been red carded too" - WUM - you must be but as Walters fouled Carragher the discussion on Red cards is irrelevant

[-Q-]

I genuinely think the long grass played the biggest part in the game. Even Lucas, who is normally flawless in his passing was misplacing passes.

It didn't just affect passing, it made it impossible for us, especially Downing, to run with the ball.  But that is within the rules as far as I know so credit to Stoke for making the most of their severely limited talents by manipulating the game environment.  The PL should set a standard for blade length because that was ridiculous.

[-Q-]

It was never a penalty.

If the minimal contact Carra made with Walters was a foul, then the contact Walters made with Carra was also a foul.

Either they were both fouls, or neither were.  Football is a physical game.  Neither were fouls.

Also - the ref gave a free-kick against Skrtel for less than Walter's barge into Carra.

[Solomon Grundy]

Just seen the highlights for the first time today and heres my take on the penalty incidents :

1) The Delap hand ball in the box was a penalty

2) Theirs was a deffo penalty. You can see Carra dragging him down.

3) The Upson handball right at the end was never a penalty in a million years. He had no chance of getting his arm out of the way as he came sliding in. We'd be fuming if that was givin at the other end.

[Solomon Grundy]

It was never a penalty.

If the minimal contact Carra made with Walters was a foul, then the contact Walters made with Carra was also a foul.

Either they were both fouls, or neither were.  Football is a physical game.  Neither were fouls.

Also - the ref gave a free-kick against Skrtel for less than Walter's barge into Carra.

Sorry dont agree mate. Walters just gave Carra a good old-fashioned shoulder-barge. Nothing wrong with that imo. Whereas Carra definitely was pulling Walters down as he went to ground. Definate penalty.

[classycarra]

Back to goal isn't a goalscoring opportunity. Has to be going towards goal.

he was running towards goal the whole way through, only time he rotated away from goal was when the arm went around him.

[andy in warrington]

Just seen the highlights for the first time today and heres my take on the penalty incidents :

1) The Delap hand ball in the box was a penalty

2) Theirs was a deffo penalty. You can see Carra dragging him down.

3) The Upson handball right at the end was never a penalty in a million years. He had no chance of getting his arm out of the way as he came sliding in. We'd be fuming if that was givin at the other end.

that's how I saw them also.

Stoke's was a penalty. Carragher got on the wrong side of Walters, and he ended up with his arm around his waist, grabbing him. Poor defending.

The handball in the 1st half was a stonewaller but we didn't seem to appeal much.

[-Q-]

Agree with you on the Upson one, I've seen them given at Old Trafford, but that wasn't a pen.

As for theirs, Carra is not pulling him down, watch it again, he has his arm around him, but he isn't yanking him to the ground at all, there was contact, but not enough to warrant a pen.

[callanlfc5times]

The foul on Skrtel was a penalty as well. Well should have been

[classycarra]

"if you consider the rulebook, carragher could and probably should have been red carded too" - WUM - you must be but as Walters fouled Carragher the discussion on Red cards is irrelevant

haha, WUM? the discussion on the red card is relevant given that the ref gave a foul. i dont see how you can argue that if the ref called it a foul, then it could have been a red

you could see in carras reaction, along with agger especially trying to convince the ref that he wasnt the last man. that for me tells you enough about the potential for a red card being real

think the fact he didnt get a red card shows that maybe the ref wasnt entirely sure.

[Solomon Grundy]

Agree with you on the Upson one, I've seen them given at Old Trafford, but that wasn't a pen.

As for theirs, Carra is not pulling him down, watch it again, he has his arm around him, but he isn't yanking him to the ground at all, there was contact, but not enough to warrant a pen.

Showed it close up on goals on sunday mate. As Carra puts his arm around Walters he deffo grabs hold of him as he is falling. Yes the bluenose twat did go down easy, but its still a penalty imo. Really poor defending by Carra.

[Ultimate Bromance]

3) The Upson handball right at the end was never a penalty in a million years. He had no chance of getting his arm out of the way as he came sliding in. We'd be fuming if that was givin at the other end.

Reminded me of that penalty decision against Carra last year, forget vs who, when he slid in to try and block a cross and the ball just slammed into his hand from a very short distance away. Maybe it's soft, but them's the rules. Be nice if they were enforced on a consistent basis.

[Redeo]

The foul on Skrtel was a penalty as well. Well should have been

In an ideal world yes. In reality, Skrtel could have tried selling it a bit. The whole situation looked more 'awkward' than like a penalty...

[Redeo]

Reminded me of that penalty decision against Carra last year, forget vs who, when he slid in to try and block a cross and the ball just slammed into his hand from a very short distance away. Maybe it's soft, but them's the rules. Be nice if they were enforced on a consistent basis.

That was in Europe with another referee behind the goal. That's why the penalty was called on Carra. Otherwise, it is very hard to see...

[-Q-]

Showed it close up on goals on sunday mate. As Carra puts his arm around Walters he deffo grabs hold of him as he is falling.

Yes the bluenose twat did go down easy, but its still a penalty imo.

No! NO NO NO NO! 100x NO!

One of the most annoying and persistent myths in modern football is the idea that contact + dive = penalty.

Really poor defending by Carra.

100% agree with this part.

[Red Bird]

Reminded me of that penalty decision against Carra last year, forget vs who, when he slid in to try and block a cross and the ball just slammed into his hand from a very short distance away. Maybe it's soft, but them's the rules. Be nice if they were enforced on a consistent basis.

Was about to say the same thing. Carragher has been penalised at least twice for similar offences. My reaction has always been that his arm stopped the ball from reaching his intended target, intentional or not. It's the inconsistency in application that irks me.

[Solomon Grundy]

Reminded me of that penalty decision against Carra last year, forget vs who, when he slid in to try and block a cross and the ball just slammed into his hand from a very short distance away. Maybe it's soft, but them's the rules. Be nice if they were enforced on a consistent basis.

That was in Europe with another referee behind the goal. That's why the penalty was called on Carra. Otherwise, it is very hard to see...

That wasn't a penalty for me either.

[Loo Pan]

haha, WUM? the discussion on the red card is relevant given that the ref gave a foul. i dont see how you can argue that if the ref called it a foul, then it could have been a red

No, it is not a clear goalscoring opportunity. After barging into carragher he has to face away from goal to control the ball, and Carra is still goalside of him. Never in a million years.

[Oscar3]

Anyone who thinks it was a pen for Stoke...Are you watching the Norwich game?

[Redeo]

Showed it close up on goals on sunday mate. As Carra puts his arm around Walters he deffo grabs hold of him as he is falling. Yes the bluenose twat did go down easy, but its still a penalty imo. Really poor defending by Carra.

Objectively, it was a clear penalty. Sure Walters could have stayed on his feet, but it would have been really dumb for him to do so given the obvious opportunity Carra provided him with.

[-Q-]

In an ideal world yes. In reality, Skrtel could have tried selling it a bit. The whole situation looked more 'awkward' than like a penalty...

You want us to turn into a team of cheating diving mancs? No thanks.  You shouldn't have to roll around on the floor performing theatrics for the ref to give a pen.

Ian Holloway did tell the story of having a senior ref (not sure if it was Halsey, Hackett or Webb...) come to their training ground and explain to the players that if they are honest, they won't get penalties, if they dive, the ref will give them.

[Ultimate Bromance]

That wasn't a penalty for me either.

What if it happens outside the box, is it a foul?

[-Q-]

Objectively, it was a clear penalty. Sure Walters could have stayed on his feet, but it would have been really dumb for him to do so given the obvious opportunity Carra provided him with.

So diving is now acceptable?

However, Carra should not have given him the opportunity, I agree. 

[Solomon Grundy]

No! NO NO NO NO! 100x NO!

One of the most annoying and persistent myths in modern football is the idea that contact + dive = penalty.

100% agree with this part.

I wouldn't say he dived to be honest. The pull from Carra was enough for him to be put off balance and lose his footing so he went down. It was a foul plain and simple.

[John C]

Did anyone notice BBC Sport had the result 1-1?
Knobheads.

[Redeo]

That wasn't a penalty for me either.

I felt Carra clearly committed penalty in that European game. His hand was way up. Yesterday's call is a bit more justifiable, but it should've still been called IMO...

[-Q-]

I wouldn't say he dived to be honest. The pull from Carra was enough for him to be put off balance and lose his footing so he went down. It was a foul plain and simple.

Well, we are going to have to agree to differ on that one

It was bad defending, but not a pen.

[Solomon Grundy]

What if it happens outside the box, is it a foul?

Point taken.

[Redeo]

You want us to turn into a team of cheating diving mancs? No thanks.  You shouldn't have to roll around on the floor performing theatrics for the ref to give a pen.

Ian Holloway did tell the story of having a senior ref (not sure if it was Halsey, Hackett or Webb...) come to their training ground and explain to the players that if they are honest, they won't get penalties, if they dive, the ref will give them.

Nobody's suggesting we should cheat. The reality is you have to sell a bit what happens to you on the pitch. Otherwise it may go unnoticed. That's not cheating.

Cheating is when you pretend or act like foul was being committed on you when in fact it wasn't.
'Selling it' is when you act in a way to ensure that the illegal tackle has actually been committed on you is noticed by the referee. If you think about it, there is a difference there.
As I said, the tackle on Skrtel didn't look like a penalty and he didn't help make it look like a penalty. It is only at the second replay that I thought, hey, this could have actually been a penalty. If Suarez was in that position the ref would have been much more likely to call the penalty; its a matter of intelligence, know-how, ...

[shravan.satya]

Clear penalty. Carra shouldn't have had his hand across Walters. He doesn't have enough quality to score that goal. 2 bad mistakes by Carra in the last 2 games. Hopefully if either of Glen or Kelly is fit, Kenny will start with Skrtel and Agger as CBs.

[Always_A_Red]

I tell you one thing that gets me fuckin angry and its not the ref, its not our players, its not the linesman....its some of our gobshite fuckin away fans who feel the need to snap chairs and kick the shit out of everything when we dont do well at another clubs ground!!

Was sat in block 40 about row 20 and there's these group of 20 somethin lads 4 rows behind me kicking the shit of of chairs, shouting abuse at the ref, shouting shite at Peter Crouch (who incidently was a great player for us and who we should have alot of respect for), and swearing and shouting at our own fuckin players when things didnt go well!

It was an incredibly frustrating day yesterday. It always is when we go there (remember last year??!). That doesnt mean individuals should resort the bollocks like that.

Rant over!

[Carlito Roberto]

Stoke's penalty was nailed on, Carra let him get the wrong side and then was stupid enough to grab hold of him. That's two terrible errors in two games, the guy really needs benching.

[petrichor]

Just seen the highlights for the first time today and heres my take on the penalty incidents :

1) The Delap hand ball in the box was a penalty

2) Theirs was a deffo penalty. You can see Carra dragging him down.

3) The Upson handball right at the end was never a penalty in a million years. He had no chance of getting his arm out of the way as he came sliding in. We'd be fuming if that was givin at the other end.

that's how i saw it too..
carragher had gotten away with dragging down opponents in the box before, so luck evens out..

[Pistolero]

very unlucky to have a c*nt like clattenberg in the middle..iffy pen at best

[andyrol]

all we want as supporters is consistant refereeing. if that was a foul and penalty by carragher then why isnt the same (and often far worse) offence , i.e. holding, punished at every corner,free kick and throw in into the box? also there is NO WAY that an arm around the waist with hardly any contact should fell a man of the same size, but the stoke player threw himself to the floor as if he'd been clotheslined by jonah lomu.

[sidneyroughdiamond]

Carra's aftermatch comments really gave away the fact that he thought it was a penalty,

At the time I thought their penalty was harsh. I haven't seen it again and will need to have a look before I make a judgement. It might have been or it might not have been.