Author Topic: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool  (Read 555447 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5160 on: November 21, 2011, 09:21:01 pm »
Lucas does a solid job and I think his job looks a lot easier than it actually is. But with Adam providing the attacking threat, I wonder if Lucas automatic role as first pick is coming under threat soon. With soon I mean for next season. I believe we lack an aggressive, defensive midfielder. I think that kind of player will be on our list of transfer targets. Spearing is the closest we have, but if he can't get closer to the starting line up, I reckon he could be replaced in the summer. If we were to add a player similar to Mascherano in style, would we go with Lucas or Adam beside him? I am not convinced we would choose Lucas.

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Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5161 on: November 21, 2011, 09:34:01 pm »
Lucas does a solid job and I think his job looks a lot easier than it actually is. But with Adam providing the attacking threat, I wonder if Lucas automatic role as first pick is coming under threat soon. With soon I mean for next season. I believe we lack an aggressive, defensive midfielder. I think that kind of player will be on our list of transfer targets. Spearing is the closest we have, but if he can't get closer to the starting line up, I reckon he could be replaced in the summer. If we were to add a player similar to Mascherano in style, would we go with Lucas or Adam beside him? I am not convinced we would choose Lucas.
Who the hell hacked into Gnurglan's account?

Offline simesy

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5162 on: November 21, 2011, 09:46:08 pm »
Lucas does a solid job and I think his job looks a lot easier than it actually is. But with Adam providing the attacking threat, I wonder if Lucas automatic role as first pick is coming under threat soon. With soon I mean for next season. I believe we lack an aggressive, defensive midfielder. I think that kind of player will be on our list of transfer targets. Spearing is the closest we have, but if he can't get closer to the starting line up, I reckon he could be replaced in the summer. If we were to add a player similar to Mascherano in style, would we go with Lucas or Adam beside him? I am not convinced we would choose Lucas.
Masch was amazing for us but the game has moved on and we dont need a destroyer type.We have a dm who not only wins the majority of his tackles but he also stays on his feet and retains the ball thus able to use it more quickly which is vital in the 100mph modern game.We DO though need someone who can fill in for lucas so he can be rested now and again from continually doing all the donkey work.That's if you dont think spearing is of the same quality.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5163 on: November 21, 2011, 09:53:05 pm »
Who the hell hacked into Gnurglan's account?

Ha! Could be de-hydration after a game I played tonight.

Someone to come in for Lucas, it's nothing that will happen for the rest of the season. At least. But there is no competitor for Lucas in the side. Which is the main point. It's needed. As long as the competitor is Spearing, it's no concern for Lucas. But is that how we want to continue?

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5164 on: November 21, 2011, 09:55:06 pm »
That was an absolute cruncher. His tackling technique is unusual. He often tackles at speed and transfers the momentum of a sharp run into the collision. In that sense he tackles with his entire body rather than a savage swipe of the leg. It looks less spectacular but, christ, it must hurt his opponent.
It's also a reason behind his injury record. He rarely over reaches in a tackle, and never has to use his legs as a shield.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5165 on: November 21, 2011, 09:56:47 pm »
Ha! Could be de-hydration after a game I played tonight.

Someone to come in for Lucas, it's nothing that will happen for the rest of the season. At least. But there is no competitor for Lucas in the side. Which is the main point. It's needed. As long as the competitor is Spearing, it's no concern for Lucas. But is that how we want to continue?
No, but I think sangria made the point about Holden (Jones would have been ideal.) We need a player capable of playing that role in the center, along with CB and perhaps cover on the fullback role.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5166 on: November 21, 2011, 10:09:41 pm »
Masch was amazing for us but the game has moved on and we dont need a destroyer type.We have a dm who not only wins the majority of his tackles but he also stays on his feet and retains the ball thus able to use it more quickly which is vital in the 100mph modern game.We DO though need someone who can fill in for lucas so he can be rested now and again from continually doing all the donkey work.That's if you dont think spearing is of the same quality.

Oh, I think we could do with a destroyer (who can also play football). Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano and Lucas were such a great mix because they all offered different things. The biggest change in CM since, except for the overall drop in quality, is the energy that both Gerrard and Mascherano could provide. And we are heavily dependent on Lucas, who can't give us that energy. With Gerrard maybe not able to have the same impact game after game, we really could do with a new CM, who can provide it. Spearing? I think this season is his big chance, but I am not convinced he will pass the test.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline koolkamal

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5167 on: November 22, 2011, 12:04:32 am »
Lucas Leiva | The Brazilian Against The World (Stats analysis)
NOVEMBER 21, 2011 8:26 PM CHRIS VERMEULEN

Lucas Leiva, the player Liverpool fans love, and others love to hate. Recently though, the unBrazilian Brazilian has become a bit of a legend to Liverpool fans, and has become a pivotal part of Liverpool’s midfield.

When Rafa Benitez signed Ł5 million rated Lucas in the summer of 2007, he was known more as an attacking midfielder. Sure enough Lucas soon became the first Brazilian to score a goal for Liverpool. In his second season Lucas became increasingly unpopular and found it hard competing with Liverpool heroes such as Steven Gerrard, Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano.

Fast forward two years and Lucas has become one of the first names on the team sheet and is one of the best defensive, or holding, midfielders in not just the Premier League but also the world. This is largely due to Rafa Benitez overseeing his transition from attacking to defensive midfielder. The 2010/11 season was by far the best Lucas has had in a Liverpool short and the fans acknowledged this by voting him as the Standard Chartered Player of the Season. Lucas also had the most tackles of any player in any of the top four European leagues for the 10/11 season.

To see just how good Lucas is, we decide to compare him to 7 other Premier League players who play a similar role to him in the midfield. The 7 we chose are John Obi Mikel from Chelsea, Alexandre Song from Arsenal, Michael Carrick for Manchester United, Scotty Parker for Tottenham, Cheick Tioté for Newcastle, Nigel De Jong for Manchester City and Karl Henry from Wolves for good measure. These players offer us a nice spread across the Premier League log. For this article I’ll look at the stats for the 2011/12 season so far.

The stats (does not include gameweek 12) for the 8 holding mids of the Premier League.

 
Stats for the 8 best PL holding mids

So right off the bat you can see that most of them have started eight games or more this season so far except for Carrick and De Jong. This is most likely down to Manchester City having no need for De Jong is their superstar midfield and Alex Ferguson opting for youth rather than experience in his squad. For this reason they’ll be mostly ignored in their comparison and mostly used for perspective on stats for single games.

Newcastle’s Tioté has the most clean sheets with four in their brilliant unbeaten run. Lucas and Song come into a joint second with three clean sheets for Liverpool and Arsenal respectively. Behind them are Henry and Mikel with two a piece in 12 and 8 games respectively. Parker managed 1 clean sheet in eight starts and Carrick got one in his only start of the season. Bottom of the pile is De Jong who hasn’t achieved a clean sheets in three attempts.

Next we’ll look at their passing stats and how creative these midfielders are for their teams.
If we look at chances created, we’ll see that Song comes out on top with 13. The important thing in this statistic is that with Arsenal’s playing style, chances are created from all positions. Lucas comes in second with 10 chances; this will also speaks loads to how much we’ve changed into a squad geared for creating chances and scoring. Behind them are Mikel and Henry with 7, Parker with 6 and Tioté with 5. As I’ve said before, Carrick and De Jong’s stats are null and void in this comparison as it would skew the results.

Passes attempted has Mikel at the top with 643 passes and achieving a 92% completion rate. Lucas is in second place again with 569 attempted passes but his completion rate is a bit lower at 85%. Song comes in third with 559 attempted passes and achieves the same completion rate as Lucas; 85%. Karl Henry managed to get 86% of his 531 passes on target, earning him fourth place. Closely behind Henry is Tioté with 521 passes and an 82% pass completion percentage. With 491 passes and a 90% completion percentage is Scott Parker. I’ll just reiterate this round of results is based on Total attempted passes.

Ok now for the most important part for a defensive midfielder; defence. We’ll now look at two defensive charts. The first one is a line chart which compares Ground 50-50s won, successful tackles, loss of possession and fouls conceded. Then we’ll look at a pie chart detailing how many minutes each player manages before losing possession. Side-note: Carrick and De Jong left out again for reasons explained before.

Let’s look at the first chart:

 
Defensive stats compared

Firstly you’ll notice that most of Lucas’ stats sit a bit higher up that the rest, except for loss of possession and fouls conceded. If you think about it, those two stats are really ones we’ll want Lucas’ stats to be lower than the rest. Also, this chart is not based on the % of each stat but rather by how many tackles, 50-50′s the player won

Let’s start off with ground 50-50s; clearly Lucas is the best in the league at 50-50 challenges on the ground by a good country mile. Lucas managed to win 60% of his 138 50-50 challenges which is quite a feat. Only players that get close are Parker and Tioté with Parker getting 57% of his 110 50-50s right and Tioté winning 42% of his 149 50-50s. Karl Henry is by far the worst with 50-50s, only attempting 76 of them and only winning 57% of them. Mikel isn’t far off the bottom though; he managed to win 58% of his 89 50-50s. Song tries more 50-50s, 103 of them, but only wins 50% of them.

The best tackler in the league? You guessed it; Lucas. Now his successful tackle percentage may not reflect that fact but if you take into account of tackles attempted and the amount won, then weigh it up against the rest you’ll see that he does it best with 40+ successful tackles in 10 games, as opposed to Karl Henry who has started more games than Lucas but hasn’t even managed 10 successful tackles. Indeed Henry averages a tackle attempt a game. To put that in perspective, Carrick started one game and already managed 12 attempted tackles.

Now on to fouls conceded. For me this is probably one of Lucas’ only weak points. That said, in perspective with the other players, he isn’t actually that bad. In this respect Scott Parker has conceded the least amount of fouls. Worst is Alex Song, who has been a bit of a naughty boy, but so has most of the Arsenal squad.

This brings us to loss of possession. Now brace yourselves ‘cause this is something quite special. Lucas has lost possession only three, yes 3, times in 10 league games. Now again to put this into perspective, Carrick started one match and lost possession as many times as Lucas. Mikel and Song are the closest to him with 8 and 9 respectively. Next up is Karl Henry with 11, Parker with 12 and Tioté with 15.

Let’s take a look now at the pie chart detailing the amount of minutes per loss of possession these players are averaging.

 
Minutes per Loss of Possession

Well the chart really speaks for itself if you look at the amount of minutes Lucas is averaging per loss of possession. The closest to him is Karl Henry with 95.2 minutes per loss of possession, which means there are 193.1 minutes between Lucas’ average and the next best average, quite spectacular to be honest. Mikel is third best with 92.2 minutes per possession loss. 3.8 minutes behind him is Song, who is averaging 88.4 minutes before losing possession. Parker manages to keep the ball for 59.2 and last but not least is Tioté who can only manage 54 minutes, without giving the ball away, in 9 games.

As Liverpool fans we don’t need to be told that Lucas is the best holding midfielder in the league, heck we believe he’s the best in the world. For others though, a bit of proof will go a long way to convince his critics, and I think we’ve seen in this article that Lucas really is a world class midfielder that offers a lot going forward and even more in defence. Only question now is; how long before Lucas gets his own Kop song? He surely deserves it after the stick he’s had to live through in his early Liverpool career. Lucas, Lucas LEIVA!

http://www.anfieldindex.com/4237/lucas-leiva-the-brazilian-against-the-world.html#tb
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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5168 on: November 22, 2011, 12:24:39 am »
Interesting read, thanks for posting that mate.

When Rafa Benitez signed Ł5 million rated Lucas in the summer of 2007, he was known more as an attacking midfielder. Sure enough Lucas soon became the first Brazilian to score a goal for Liverpool. In his second season Lucas became increasingly unpopular and found it hard competing with Liverpool heroes such as Steven Gerrard, Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano.

Honestly, that that even happened is still galling. Fucking twats who booed their own players and didn't give them a chance. It's happening with Henderson as well now.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline Notayesman

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5169 on: November 22, 2011, 12:41:22 am »
Super player, everything he does is so effortless. Just a really intelligent player, simple as that. And I love the way you never see him having to make a slide or last ditch tackle, the lad is just already where he's supposed to be.

Offline scared_person

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5170 on: November 22, 2011, 01:16:16 am »

Minutes per Loss of Possession

What an inappropriate use of a pie chart.

Offline new-red

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5171 on: November 22, 2011, 01:36:05 am »
Really good read but you chose the wrong type of chart for both graphs. You need to use bar graphs for both. I understood them but line graphs are to chart tendencies of over time and pie charts are divisions of a single thing.

If you don't care, I understand because you were still able to convey your point effectively but I thought you may want to know.
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Offline IndianKopite

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5172 on: November 22, 2011, 01:56:44 am »
I think rafa discouraged people from committing forward willy nilly and this led to a lack of opportunitys for this one touch style to emerge.   

So you think that only affected Lucas but not Mascherano?Ok,if you say so...

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5173 on: November 22, 2011, 02:15:10 am »
koolkamal did NOT put this together, did he? He just re-posted. Or so it appears.
Ludi Circenses!

Offline new-red

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5174 on: November 22, 2011, 03:28:53 am »
So you think that only affected Lucas but not Mascherano?Ok,if you say so...

Both of them stayed back. The wingbacks were supposed to get forward and the DMs were supposed to help the slow back line by covering the spaces left by the WBs because our CBs were too slow to stop attackers getting around them. Too make sure we wouldn't get done on the counter.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5175 on: November 22, 2011, 06:18:34 am »
So you think that only affected Lucas but not Mascherano?Ok,if you say so...

What are you on about? you been sniffing the nitrous oxide again?

Offline filthy1980

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5176 on: November 22, 2011, 08:02:15 am »


http://www.anfieldindex.com/4237/lucas-leiva-the-brazilian-against-the-world.html#tb

the suggested song in the comments i thought was quality

To Queens “we will rock you”

Buddy youre a Redman, hardman,
playing for our team,
gonna be the best man one day,

Youve got blood on your face,
your tackling is great,
Spraying through balls all over the place.

Lucas, Lucas, Leiva!
Lucas, Lucas, Leiva!

Offline ReeNah

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5177 on: November 22, 2011, 08:52:16 am »
Best player we have at the moment. Well done!!~
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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5178 on: November 22, 2011, 08:52:29 am »
Both of them stayed back. The wingbacks were supposed to get forward and the DMs were supposed to help the slow back line by covering the spaces left by the WBs because our CBs were too slow to stop attackers getting around them. Too make sure we wouldn't get done on the counter.

I don't think that's completely accurate. Whilst Rafa did try and get the fullbacks more involved (the signings of Dossena and Johnson indicate this), Lucas still got forward quite a few times during that final season when paired with Mascherano. I do think he was still to be mindful of his defensive duties but it helped that he had a type of player Mascherano beside him, whose tenacity and pace could hold up an attack by the opposition. When Mascherano left, Lucas was the best, perhaps only choice to fulfil that role and it's been the same ever since.
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Offline drpepe

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5179 on: November 22, 2011, 09:03:52 am »
What an inappropriate use of a pie chart.

 ;D that was my first thought too - perhaps we're a little pedantic given the context )but i also didn't like the use of a line chart in the first figure , either!)

interesting analysis though  8)

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5180 on: November 22, 2011, 09:15:34 am »
So you think that only affected Lucas but not Mascherano?Ok,if you say so...
When are you going to realise that Masch doesn't play for us and Lucas does?

Offline Cadno

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5181 on: November 22, 2011, 09:25:24 am »
When are you going to realise that Masch doesn't play for us and Lucas does?
And that one is a Centreback and the other a Holding Midfielder  ;)
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Offline The Wooly Ginger

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5182 on: November 22, 2011, 09:27:16 am »

Stats for the 8 best PL holding mids
Interesting, thanks for posting.

What is a "loss of possession"? Does that mean an unsuccessful dribble? How about Lucas's 88 incomplete passes? Because I think that statistic is pretty useless without "dribbles attempted". Basically that row seems to put how adventurous the player is in dribbling in reverse order.
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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5183 on: November 22, 2011, 10:04:26 am »
A joy to watch. Many times durng the game he looked to be short of time, and in danger of losing possession, but not once did it happen. With quick feet, and an even quicker mind, he made sure we not only kept the ball, but were able to start attacks with almost every pass he made. Superb player, and I still get the feeling he's just getting started.

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5184 on: November 22, 2011, 10:49:00 am »
Who the hell hacked into Gnurglan's account?
I was about to say that! Strange coming from the Gnurgler

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5185 on: November 22, 2011, 10:49:05 am »
koolkamal did NOT put this together, did he? He just re-posted. Or so it appears.

Yep I didn't put it together, just re-posted it from anfieldindex.com website. They have some good articles on there.

A joy to watch. Many times durng the game he looked to be short of time, and in danger of losing possession, but not once did it happen. With quick feet, and an even quicker mind, he made sure we not only kept the ball, but were able to start attacks with almost every pass he made. Superb player, and I still get the feeling he's just getting started.

Agree especially the bit in bold. He's just going to get so much better.
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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5186 on: November 22, 2011, 12:10:10 pm »
I`d love to see a compilation of Lucas` performace on sunday.The lad was absolutely immense.So comfortable in possession and deadly in the tackle.He`s an absolute monster of a player.I love watching him play.
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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5187 on: November 22, 2011, 12:31:17 pm »
I`d love to see a compilation of Lucas` performace on sunday.The lad was absolutely immense.So comfortable in possession and deadly in the tackle.He`s an absolute monster of a player.I love watching him play.


Particularly in the first half - just seemed to be running the show.  Not sure if I remember the play exactly but at one point he made a tackle near the half-way on the right and it knocked the ball onto one of our lads (Kuyt?)...he was instantly up for the return and played a first time through-ball to Suarez who was in oceans of space behind Ashley Cole.  Happened so quickly that Lucas must have either decided on the pass before the tackle or spotted Suarez whilst he was still 'recovering' from he impact of the challenge.

Offline -Willo-

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5188 on: November 22, 2011, 12:46:18 pm »
He's now world class IMO

Offline mulhergremista

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5189 on: November 22, 2011, 12:46:52 pm »
What are you talking about? Stop getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.

Back to the game Luiz is a c*nt for getting Lucas booked rolling around like that when they had agreed to donate food to charity.

David Luiz?  well,  we will not agree about him, but that is OK and not the issue here/

The issue that make me react the way i reacted was the following quote, and if this is your English humor, it is in a very bad taste.

Quote
I know it's Children in need day today but any chance of a whiparound to help this poor Moldovan fella pay his billz.

Yourcash can help Lucash the fella with no skillz pay his billz
.
That, one of the other pearls that ar there. 

Anywhere, I did not understand what the expression "fo sizzle" means, and also what have I to do with the Bulgarian president, apparently some relative with Lucas moldavian parents

Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5190 on: November 22, 2011, 12:53:09 pm »
The issue that make me react the way i reacted was the following quote, and if this is your English humor, it is in a very bad taste.
That, one of the other pearls that ar there. 

Anywhere, I did not understand what the expression "fo sizzle" means, and also what have I to do with the Bulgarian president, apparently some relative with Lucas moldavian parents

It was a joke, you clearly don't understand English very and clearly don't understand RAWK well either, stop taking everything so serious.

We all love Lucas on here, no one was being racist toward him or his family and fo shizzle is an American slang term that was said as a joke.

Chill out.

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5191 on: November 22, 2011, 01:20:56 pm »
David Luiz?  well,  we will not agree about him, but that is OK and not the issue here/

The issue that make me react the way i reacted was the following quote, and if this is your English humor, it is in a very bad taste.
That, one of the other pearls that ar there. 

Anywhere, I did not understand what the expression "fo sizzle" means, and also what have I to do with the Bulgarian president, apparently some relative with Lucas moldavian parents

Haha

Fo shizzle = for sure. I hope as you continue to post on RAWK that you are able to loosen up a bit because you are good poster with a unique insight into our brazilian lad and I like hearing about it. But relax a little.

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Offline kopindian

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5192 on: November 22, 2011, 01:48:57 pm »
Lucas Leiva believes Liverpool must treat every game as is if they were facing their top four rivals.

The Reds have established a superb record against the main Barclays Premier League contenders since Kenny Dalglish's return to the helm, with Sunday's 2-1 win at Chelsea the latest statement of their intent.

However, the Brazilian reckons they must reproduce that level of intensity week in, week out if they are to achieve their aims for the season.

"We spoke about this before Sunday's game," said Lucas. "If we approach every single game like we approached the Chelsea game, then we would be in a better position.

"We had to get the three points here because we'd dropped those points at home.

"Now we need to find a good way of playing at home, we have to improve our record there and if we do that then our position will definitely get better.

"When you're playing against teams that aren't maybe considered among the top clubs, then you always need to be on the attack and score goals.

"We have to find the balance and the right time to do that. When we play away, the first thing we do is defend very well and on the counter-attack we are dangerous. We have to find out the way to play at home, if we can do that then we can have a very good season."

Lucas also revealed the plan that saw the Reds clinch victory through Glen Johnson after substitute Daniel Strurridge had cancelled out a 33rd minute strike from Maxi Rodriguez.

He said: "They had the ball a lot at the back, and our strategy was to let the centre backs have the ball and then press at the right moment.

"When you regain the ball close to or in the opposition's half, you always have a chance to break and you can find space. That's what happened when we got the ball off Mikel and scored our first goal.

"If you see Barcelona play, they play the ball out from the back a lot and they can be open if you regain the ball. But the problem is that against Barcelona, you can't get the ball off them!


"We could do that against Chelsea though, and that was important."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/lucas-we-need-a-chelsea-repeat

Offline carling

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5193 on: November 22, 2011, 02:20:06 pm »
He's now world class IMO

Well most people outside of these Lucas threads consider Mascherano to be world class, and Lucas makes that guy look like a Sunday league player.  So I think we need another level again to describe Lucas.  Galaxy class perhaps?  Universe class?  What's that Jet Li film that goes on about a multiverse or something?

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5194 on: November 22, 2011, 02:21:27 pm »
Well most people outside of these Lucas threads consider Mascherano to be world class, and Lucas makes that guy look like a Sunday league player.  So I think we need another level again to describe Lucas.  Galaxy class perhaps?  Universe class?  What's that Jet Li film that goes on about a multiverse or something?
Would be hilarious, if anyone had actually said the bold bit, or anything even close to it.

Offline carling

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5195 on: November 22, 2011, 02:39:39 pm »
Would be hilarious, if anyone had actually said the bold bit, or anything even close to it.

Damn that was fast. :)

Offline new-red

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5196 on: November 22, 2011, 02:46:04 pm »
Damn that was fast. :)

Haha, We're quick on the draw in here. Don't Fuck with Lucas thread. We're always watching.
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Offline IndianKopite

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5197 on: November 22, 2011, 02:49:34 pm »
Both of them stayed back. The wingbacks were supposed to get forward and the DMs were supposed to help the slow back line by covering the spaces left by the WBs because our CBs were too slow to stop attackers getting around them. Too make sure we wouldn't get done on the counter.
yeah dude thats what I am saying.Our friend rojo here said Lucas' passing game looked worse under Rafa cuz Rafa told him to stay back all the time.I didn't make any arguement ,just asked rojo why did the same not apply to Mascherano as well.

What are you on about? you been sniffing the nitrous oxide again?

Yeah maybe.You want some?



When are you going to realise that Masch doesn't play for us and Lucas does?

Dude it wasn't me who brought up Mascherano in thread :)

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5198 on: November 22, 2011, 03:16:51 pm »
yeah dude thats what I am saying.Our friend rojo here said Lucas' passing game looked worse under Rafa cuz Rafa told him to stay back all the time.I didn't make any arguement ,just asked rojo why did the same not apply to Mascherano as well.


So you are saying mascherano was a more attacking passer of the two under Benitez? If so, that is just blatantly untrue. Mascherano mainly just switched the play from side to side. Imo, he tried to emulate alonso with those passes and make our style more expansive but he clearly didnt understand when to play the long pass or short pass. Consequently, the ball would move from side to side a lot but it never really acheived anything because they weren't played to players in space or to release them down the wing like Alonso.

Now a lot of that I believe is down to the movement of the side which was just nonexistent when alonso left. Alonso used to provide all the movement in his passes. Players would take up any position and Alonso could pass to them from Jupiter so they never had to move much. When he left, we were left with Lucas and masch which was a major change.

 Lucas as we know, plays a short passing game which is only effective if the movement is there in the side to receive a pass and play it quickly. But when there is no movement and players aren't showing for the ball then those short passes become completely ineffective. He would pass to Kuyt on the wing, but Kuyt wouldn't have anyone showing for the ball so he would have to dwell on the ball before passing back to Lucas. The defense had more than enough time to move with the ball and reestablish their shape. hence the fans giving Lucas stick about his creativity. The fulham game shows the exact opposite where  quick short passing is devastating.

Mascherano though tried to play an expansive passing game to compensate for the loss of alonso but he neither has that range, accuracy, precision, or, most importantly, passing speed of alonso so that style of passing didn't really work. When alonso played a 30 yard pass it was as flat as any pass could possibly be. Players who were in space received the pass with far more time and space because the defense could.t move that quickly. Unfortunately, masch's passes take 1-2 seconds longer to reach a player which is often all the time a defensive player needs to cover the ground to close down the receiver.

This is precisely why Lucas doesn't play long passes very often. He doesn't have that bullet 40-60 yard pass like alonso, or gerrard for that matter. So he plays the shorter passes more quickly and 3-4 short passes can do the same thing as a long pass but with the added benefit of making the defense have to react to each pass and adjust accordingly. If the passes are played at pace then by the time the play reaches the opposite flank, the defense is even more distorted than it would be had they just had to cover a long pass which just requires a collective defensive shift.

Now with more movement it is clear to see that Lucas is the much more attacking passer.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool
« Reply #5199 on: November 22, 2011, 04:30:06 pm »
.Our friend rojo here said liverpools one touch passing game looked worse under Rafa cuz Rafa told players to stay back, and not commit forward all the time from centre mid. I made an arguement ,just didn't read the post of rojo and assumed he was only talking about mascherano