Author Topic: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One  (Read 92617 times)

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #120 on: April 12, 2011, 04:03:46 pm »

The internet is a bad place - People like Mac Red are on it.

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #121 on: April 12, 2011, 04:16:54 pm »

The internet is a bad place - People like Mac Red are on it.

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2011, 04:21:54 pm »
Yeah okay but we're not building or upgrading the Westfalenstadion so what Dortmund did is limited in how it affects us. We're Liverpool and we want a ground that screams "we're Liverpool" and that includes having a Kop that emulates the spirit of its predecessors.

Personally, I very much doubt that any affordable new stadium can have such a stand, and comply with the safety regulations at the same time ... Above, I have posted 2 pictures of the old standing Kop ... If you think that any new stadium can recreate that, then I have nothing else to add to this debate ...
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Offline SMD

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #123 on: April 12, 2011, 04:35:10 pm »
I have nothing else to add to this debate ...

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2011, 05:00:30 pm »
Because the entire idea about the new stadium is not about extending the Kop ... It is about having a bigger capacity stadium, with (at least) additional 15,000 seats, and with some heavily improved corporate hospitality facilities
And why can't we achieve that, and at the same time making the kop at least the same fucking size. Leglislation or not, architecture is on another level now compared to when the kop was refurbished. We should be able to feasibly build a 16k single tier stand.
When Borussia Dortmund were upgrading the Westfalenstadion, they didn't make the Sudtribune bigger They've increased the capacity of the other stands and filled the corners ... Also, they've built some heavily improved corporate hospitality facilities (VIP areas), in order to increase the match-day revenue, without raising the ticked prices for the ordinary fans in the stands ...
If we were refurbing Anfield, I'd want them to leave the kop alone as well.

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #125 on: April 12, 2011, 05:02:37 pm »
Personally, I very much doubt that any affordable new stadium can have such a stand, and comply with the safety regulations at the same time ... Above, I have posted 2 pictures of the old standing Kop ... If you think that any new stadium can recreate that, then I have nothing else to add to this debate ...
Of course it's impossible to recreate the standing kop.

From my point of view, and match day experience, the parrybowl ticks none of the boxes I'd be looking for, apart from the seat are red. IF you've never set foot on it durign a match day, then you'll never understand.

Offline stewy17

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2011, 05:12:36 pm »
Nevermind this single tier kop carry on, what about the new anfield road??

I'm praying that they make it multicoloured like it used to be! anyone got any photos of the old stand?

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2011, 05:32:45 pm »
Because the entire idea about the new stadium is not about extending the Kop ... It is about having a bigger capacity stadium, with (at least) additional 15,000 seats, and with some heavily improved corporate hospitality facilities ... When Borussia Dortmund were upgrading the Westfalenstadion, they didn't make the Sudtribune bigger They've increased the capacity of the other stands and filled the corners ... Also, they've built some heavily improved corporate hospitality facilities (VIP areas), in order to increase the match-day revenue, without raising the ticked prices for the ordinary fans in the stands ...


Agreed

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #128 on: April 12, 2011, 05:43:17 pm »
This is what I meant about the existing Kop being "deep" not "steep":



It's really wide and the gradient is relatively shallow, the roof is lower towards the pitch and it's enclosed at the sides. And to get back to the original purpose of the thread this:



...has nothing to do with any of those things.
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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2011, 05:46:25 pm »
This is what I meant about the existing Kop being "deep" not "steep":




That stand isnt much steeper either, Quite similar?

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2011, 05:50:06 pm »
Hey, he has the same name as you!

what's that?


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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #131 on: April 12, 2011, 05:58:27 pm »
what's that?
Where's the photo you posted under the text where there's a will... re new kop, also what design was it from?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 06:09:01 pm by mark82 »

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #132 on: April 12, 2011, 06:16:40 pm »
Where's the photo you posted under the text where there's a will... re new kop, also what design was it from?






It's from some options I did to promote the practicality of redeveloping Anfield and since we were talking about re-creating the 'dark and brooding' look of the old kop and whether it was possible to do it with the new regs...



« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 09:58:17 am by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #134 on: April 12, 2011, 07:08:06 pm »
And why can't we achieve that, and at the same time making the kop at least the same fucking size. Leglislation or not, architecture is on another level now compared to when the kop was refurbished. We should be able to feasibly build a 16k single tier stand.

A new 16,000-seats single-tiered stand, if you build it complying with the new safety regulations (minimum distance between the rows, the maximum allowed angle of the stand and the minimum distance of the first row from the pitch), will give an awful experience, especially when watching from the highest rows of that new stand ...

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/football_stadiums_technical_recommendations_and_requirements_en_8211.pdf

By the way, when I was discussing the matter with an architect friend of mine, he has shown me some examples from a book ... I have just asked him about the name of that book again ... It is: ''Stadium Atlas - Technical Recommendations for Grandstands in Modern Stadia'' by Stefan Nixdorf ...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 07:23:10 pm by Ливерпул »
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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2011, 07:24:39 pm »
By the way, when I was discussing the matter with an architect friend of mine, he has shown me some examples from a book ... I have just asked him about the name of that book again ... It is: ''Stadium Atlas - Technical Recommendations for Grandstands in Modern Stadia'' by Stefan Nixdorf ...


I bought it last Friday - excellent book.
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Offline xerxes1

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #136 on: April 12, 2011, 08:30:42 pm »
It is: ''Stadium Atlas - Technical Recommendations for Grandstands in Modern Stadia'' by Stefan Nixdorf ...
An excellent reference book.

You make a good point about a massive single tier stand not being an end in itself. It can result in a roof that is so high that a significant amount of the noise is lost.

An overhang on a twin tier can help to generate very high levels of noise bringing the roof closer to greater numbers of fans both above, and below.
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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #137 on: April 12, 2011, 09:59:05 pm »
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Offline mark82

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #138 on: April 12, 2011, 11:05:28 pm »





It's from some options I did and since we were talking about re-creating the 'dark and brooding' look of the old kop and whether it was possible to do it with the new regs...

I guess thats the unlikely option that would cost a fortune. Out of curiosity what would the estimate/total guess be if where to start from scatch on Stanley Park?

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #139 on: April 12, 2011, 11:22:44 pm »
I guess thats the unlikely option that would cost a fortune. Out of curiosity what would the estimate/total guess be if where to start from scatch on Stanley Park?

Yes, a really massive stadium is unlikely and would no doubt cost a fortune, and be unnecessary, but I can see no reason why would it 'cost a fortune' to add 4,000 seats to the 12,400 seats that are already on the kop when compared to starting from scratch on Stanley Park.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 11:50:03 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #140 on: April 12, 2011, 11:36:30 pm »
Quote
I guess thats the unlikely option that would cost a fortune. Out of curiosity what would the estimate/total guess be if where to start from scatch on Stanley Park?
Everything is relative. You are right to say that a 4000 increase of the Kop capacity at Anfield would be physically improbable with the costs that you would associate with such a project.

No doubt Ayres will soon have some new build quotes in, and the minus sign on his calculator ready to subtract naming rights to give us a current Stanley Park figure. The variables are so great that any figure is pretty pointless.

The latest revelations on the ownership profile of the FSG 19 could also go either way. If everyone is prepared to divvy up, the cost of any new stadium/major redevelopment  can be easily financed, if they are not we are back to G&H style torpor.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:11:40 am by xerxes1 »
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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #141 on: April 12, 2011, 11:54:54 pm »
Yes, a really massive stadium is unlikely and would no doubt cost a fortune, and be unnecessary, but I can see no reason why would it 'cost a fortune' to add 4,000 seats to the 12,400 seats that are already on the kop when compared to starting from scratch on Stanley Park.

Sorry I mentioned SP but no need to jump down my neck.  ::)  :-X

It was just a curious question.
That being how much would that massive stadium redevelopment cost at the side of doing the same thing on Stanley Park, not just the one stand. I'm not advocating anything just curiousity and I won't want it on contract!

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #142 on: April 13, 2011, 12:01:16 am »
Sorry I mentioned SP but no need to jump down my neck.  ::)  :-X

It was just a curious question.
That being how much would that massive stadium redevelopment cost at the side of doing the same thing on Stanley Park, not just the one stand. I'm not advocating anything just curiousity and I won't want it on contract!

Sorry, a redevelopment will cost about 50% to 70% of a new stadium on a like-for-like basis and depending on how big both are.  Obviously the bigger a redevelopment is, the more like a new stadium it becomes and the more complications there may be.



« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 08:24:35 am by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #143 on: April 13, 2011, 12:18:20 am »
Sorry, a redevelopment will cost about 50% to 70% of a new stadium on a like-for-like basis and depending on how big both are.
There is insufficient information to make a judgement. 50-70% is a wholly arbitrary guess.

A 50,000 seater redevelopment at Anfield (new main stand, some corner infills) could cost a small fraction of a 50,000 new build. A 70,000 new build could be cheaper than a 70,000 redevelopment.

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #144 on: April 13, 2011, 12:23:25 am »
Sorry, a redevelopment will cost about 50% to 70% of a new stadium on a like-for-like basis and depending on how big both are.  Obviously the bigger a redevelopment is, the more like a new stadium it becomes and the more complications there may be but I think the idea here is to look at how the stadium should feel and work and how the Hicks Bowl didn't.

Thanks, if we decided on phased redevelopment now say aiming toward new AR end and Main stand and major work on Kemlyn is there not a a stage when inspectors say something along the lines of, this is basically a new stadium so it must conform to all new standards even on parts that aren't 'worked' on?

Sorry if its a silly question, but in my trade, Gas engineer, works over certain conditions means the entire system must be updated to new regs.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:25:49 am by mark82 »

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #145 on: April 13, 2011, 12:24:33 am »
There is insufficient information to make a judgement. 50-70% is a wholly arbitrary guess.

A 50,000 seater redevelopment at Anfield (new main stand, some corner infills) could cost a small fraction of a 50,000 new build. A 70,000 new build could be cheaper than a 70,000 redevelopment.

In fairness to Peter I did ask for a guess!

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #146 on: April 13, 2011, 03:32:13 am »
From what I've heard we will most definitely be staying where we are at Anfield.

For what it's worth, I'll be glad if that is true..

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #147 on: April 13, 2011, 07:31:36 am »
An excellent reference book.

You make a good point about a massive single tier stand not being an end in itself. It can result in a roof that is so high that a significant amount of the noise is lost.

An overhang on a twin tier can help to generate very high levels of noise bringing the roof closer to greater numbers of fans both above, and below.
It's why bigger isnt exacly better, The bigger the Kop is the taller/deeper its going to be, so you that will either effect how the roof sits above it or what views people are going to have at the back of the stand

I think anyway

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #148 on: April 13, 2011, 09:22:27 am »

The latest revelations on the ownership profile of the FSG 19 could also go either way. If everyone is prepared to divvy up, the cost of any new stadium/major redevelopment  can be easily financed, if they are not we are back to G&H style torpor.

But without the £300 million purchase debt and rolled up interest hanging around our necks - allowing us to borrow the money for redevelopment as most businesses would do???
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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #149 on: April 13, 2011, 09:24:27 am »
In fairness to Peter I did ask for a guess!

Thanks, as it happens, it's not a guess.


But without the £300 million purchase debt and rolled up interest hanging around our necks - allowing us to borrow the money for redevelopment as most businesses would do???

Funding has never been the issue for a financially feasible scheme, whether in one lump or nineteen.  Bang for buck is what's at stake.  Equating capital value on the basis of revenue between stadiums in Liverpool and London is just daft.


Thanks, if we decided on phased redevelopment now say aiming toward new AR end and Main stand and major work on Kemlyn is there not a a stage when inspectors say something along the lines of, this is basically a new stadium so it must conform to all new standards even on parts that aren't 'worked' on?

Sorry if its a silly question, but in my trade, Gas engineer, works over certain conditions means the entire system must be updated to new regs.

It’s the same.  If you change something you must comply with the new regs.  If you don’t it’s ok.

Say, if you trash the existing fire exits (or double the numbers going through them), the new ones (or the upgraded old ones) must comply with new regs.  But if you provide extra exits to cater for the doubling of numbers that’s ok - provided you don’t affect how the existing ones work and the new work complies.  If you start mixing the two, it would be a bit of a mess.

Seat legroom and sightline 'recommendations' are, at least in part, to discourage standing up in seated areas (which, it can be argued, is more dangerous than standing in standing areas!).  If whatever change you make further encourages standing up, you would no doubt need to comply with new regs to put it back 'as you were'.


It's why bigger isnt exacly better, The bigger the Kop is the taller/deeper its going to be, so you that will either effect how the roof sits above it or what views people are going to have at the back of the stand

I think anyway

Clearly the seats at the back have the same relationship to the roof at the back no matter what the height of the stand is.  However and as you say, what they see depends on what level the front edge is at.  Breaking it into tiers only makes it that much higher and reduces the view at the back for a given level of front edge.  If the front edge is raised for a better view, there’s less ‘funnelling’ of the noise (and people get wetter)

I’m told that the old Kop was pretty good acoustically.  It had a big, high, single, volume with a lower leading edge at the front and that a tier would break up the volume and the noise on the pitch would be more reliant on direct sound and less on the ‘amplification’ effect of sound bouncing off the roof.

I suspect the relative effects are not as big as people think but certainly breaking the kop up with tiers would make it harder to get things going or stay in time/tune.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 10:05:57 am by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #150 on: April 13, 2011, 10:37:01 am »
But a single bigger tier than we currently have doesnt mean better as some people suggest?

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #151 on: April 13, 2011, 10:50:57 am »
But a single bigger tier than we currently have doesnt mean better as some people suggest?

It's not necessarily better no, but it could be if everything we know about what makes the kop what it is, is considered.  There's another thread going about RTK which is talking a bit about it.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=269416.0




« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 10:54:23 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #152 on: April 13, 2011, 11:33:46 am »
A single tier is fundamental if it's to be the Kop. Whether it's the same size or bigger is a side issue but the Kop is a single tier or it's just another stand.
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Offline Strummer77

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #153 on: April 13, 2011, 01:42:43 pm »
A single tier is fundamental if it's to be the Kop. Whether it's the same size or bigger is a side issue but the Kop is a single tier or it's just another stand.

Yep. Can't believe some fans (Mac-Red, Xerxes etc.) are even toying with the idea of not having a single-tiered stand. We need one, it's part of our heritage.

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #154 on: April 13, 2011, 06:18:08 pm »
Yep. Can't believe some fans (Mac-Red, Xerxes etc.) are even toying with the idea of not having a single-tiered stand. We need one, it's part of our heritage.
I am simply as open to what will make our future as I am to our revering our past.

The Kop as was, no longer exists. Half the capacity, numbered seats. As has been pointed out, a new larger capacity stand could actually have worse acoustics, as the roof is proportionately higher. Low roofs generate noise. The single tiered stands at the Gelderd End, North Bank/South Bank Wolves are also a pale shadow of their forebears.

I would be quite happy with a new single tiered Kop at a new Anfield, apart from anything else it would help to distinguish us from the rest of the English top clubs.

I was fortunate to have started my LFC career as a lad on the Kop in the early seventies. But even then, the Kop as it was ended when a significant proportion of the youth defected to the Annie Rd End as the decade came to a close. Our seventies and eighties success was characterised by Shankly, and his successors,looking forwards. Looking back will not see the return of the good old days. We need 21st Century visionaries, and I am certainly not saying that a single tiered new kop cannot be part of that. I am saying that there has been too much looking back over the past twenty years, and not enough looking forwards.

The decisions that are taken now will be our legacy for future generations, it is important that we choose well.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2011, 10:09:33 am »
I am simply as open to what will make our future as I am to our revering our past.

The Kop as was, no longer exists. Half the capacity, numbered seats. As has been pointed out, a new larger capacity stand could actually have worse acoustics, as the roof is proportionately higher. Low roofs generate noise. The single tiered stands at the Gelderd End, North Bank/South Bank Wolves are also a pale shadow of their forebears.

I would be quite happy with a new single tiered Kop at a new Anfield, apart from anything else it would help to distinguish us from the rest of the English top clubs.

I was fortunate to have started my LFC career as a lad on the Kop in the early seventies. But even then, the Kop as it was ended when a significant proportion of the youth defected to the Annie Rd End as the decade came to a close. Our seventies and eighties success was characterised by Shankly, and his successors,looking forwards. Looking back will not see the return of the good old days. We need 21st Century visionaries, and I am certainly not saying that a single tiered new kop cannot be part of that. I am saying that there has been too much looking back over the past twenty years, and not enough looking forwards.

The decisions that are taken now will be our legacy for future generations, it is important that we choose well.

what a pile of crap.
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Offline xerxes1

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2011, 10:13:43 am »
"I've never felt being in a minority of one was in any way an indication that I might be in error"

Offline LiamG

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2011, 10:59:13 am »
I think its fair to say any new stadium just has to have a single tiered Kop, its just a matter of how big would it be before it compromises views,acoustics etc

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2011, 02:42:16 pm »
I think its fair to say any new stadium just has to have a single tiered Kop, its just a matter of how big would it be before it compromises views,acoustics etc

No real need for compromise.  The size is effectively limited only by the viewing distances (see the plans that Alan_F posted).  The angle of the rake can be adjusted to give good sightlines and the angle of the roof fixed to produce as much acoustic effect as possible whilst preserving the view ((by keeping a constant relationship between volume and height of opening, the bigger the volume the greater the reverberation, the more reflective the materials etc etc - the choice of material will have a larger effect on the acoustics - we should all wear suits of armour...)






« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 03:20:26 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline mark82

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Re: Why The Hicks Bowl Must Never Be Built Part One
« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2011, 07:26:56 pm »
What is the blue/green shaded area?