Author Topic: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...  (Read 96268 times)

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1040 on: April 20, 2011, 10:52:32 pm »
LESSONS LEARNT

1. Use Google
2. Don't let Parry out except for children's parties
3. Knocking on Moores' door is much easier than protesting against Hicks and Gillett to effect change
4. Some people are full of shit and will do anything for a bit of celebrity attention
5. If a European Cup winning manager is unhappy, generally speaking there's a reason for it
6. Football players are idiots


If we needed this episode to teach us any of that then God help us all.
You would trust Parry with children?!!!!

I just hope we have struck it lucky with FSG, we didn't  have much choice so let's just hope that serendipity proves it is in our favour. 

Clearly one of the sources in the book is Parry though, clear from the articles that he must be heavily invoved
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Walk on, walk on

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1041 on: April 20, 2011, 11:15:56 pm »
Do you know what?

He's a red, he loves Liverpool as much as the rest of us, but he has very different ideas and opinions to most of us... Deal with it.
He may be a pain to you, but he's one of us and I'd rather be with him than without him... much more lively the way it is 
Don't drive people away because they don't agree with you or they irk you.  He's not offensive, he's not a WUM, just enjoy the arguing.

I can understand that you appreciate people with his conviction.

The matter of fact is that he keeps bringing up his wild fantasies and passing them off as facts. When he gets called out on it he disappears. Its difficult to expect anyone to have a coherent discussion with someone like that.
Liverpool don't turn up against shit teams so Wenger picks the shittest line up possible.
The man is a genius!

Online TepidT2O

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1042 on: April 20, 2011, 11:19:03 pm »
I can understand that you appreciate people with his conviction.

The matter of fact is that he keeps bringing up his wild fantasies and passing them off as facts. When he gets called out on it he disappears. Its difficult to expect anyone to have a coherent discussion with someone like that.
You don't come on RAWK for coherent discussion do you?
You might be waiting a long time :)

I appreciate a diversity of opinion, you may find him irritating, but it's always more fun when he's around.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Ipcress

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1043 on: April 20, 2011, 11:39:29 pm »
You don't come on RAWK for coherent discussion do you?
You might be waiting a long time :)

I appreciate a diversity of opinion, you may find him irritating, but it's always more fun when he's around.

I've been reading RAWK for about 5 years, I use it to learn from other people who have a better understanding of subjects than me, be it leveraged buyouts, players playing in other leagues or stuff going on behind the scenes. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it doesn't need to agree with mine.

What I find completely out of order is when people like Xerxes use Rawk to spread lies. If he's made a mistake, then fair enough, we all do. But when this is shown to him, and he still claims to be telling the truth, without backing it up, then this is beyond entertaining, it's out of order and in this case, shows a great amount of disrespect to not only Rafa, but other RAWK ites.

For entertainment, the I find the transfer thread great fun.

Actualy I find finding which thread is now the transfer thread most fun.

Looking forward to the book. Wanted it on kindle, but now tempted to get the hard copy to pass it onto fellow reds who didn't appreciate fully the situation under H&G.
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Offline chris.volante

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1044 on: April 20, 2011, 11:53:22 pm »
Here you go mate - a great poster Shanks1965 IMO. He makes you think.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235684.0
Only just seen this sorry. Thanks for that Roy, I'll give it a read now.

Offline Walk on, walk on

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1045 on: April 20, 2011, 11:59:47 pm »
I appreciate a diversity of opinion, you may find him irritating, but it's always more fun when he's around.

Mate, I agree that having a diversity of opinions is the bedrock of a free society (we ain't communists), but for me, that doesn't equate to tolerating people who sprout lies then disappearing when called out. Which is exactly the MO of xx.

Thats not playing the devil's advocate, more like the boy who cried wolf.
Liverpool don't turn up against shit teams so Wenger picks the shittest line up possible.
The man is a genius!

Offline babraham

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1046 on: April 21, 2011, 12:11:47 am »
Ordered the book. Looking forward to reading it. I hope that this thread stay open long enough for the debate to continue, because though we have moved on and it was an ugly saga, it was an important one. And some of the effects of the regime are still being felt today.

I don't think I can accurately discribe my emotions reading the three extracts. Anger, frustration, finding the whole thing laughable, disbelife, anger again, sadness, a great deal more anger, and relief.

Three things have struck me.
The general incompetence of Gillett and Hicks. I mean, I think I have given them too much credit.  For a while I thought they were evil masterminds, horrible capatilist driven, money grabbing scumbags. Then as the regime grew longer, their incompetence grew more and more apparent. I cannot remember who, but at the SOS Independence Day Rally, I remember one of the speakers referring to them as the "poorest billionaires in history". But the idea that they were running around grabbing choc ices, falling out over who had the best scarf, and offering one of Europes finest tacticians a treadmill as part of his transfer budget, they sound mentally ill.
They should never have been allowed anywhere near the football club. Incompetence extended to theose responsible for the deal. Parry and Moores should be fucking ashamed of themselves. A google search as we later found out couold have told us a hell of a lot about these cowboys, but for fucks sake when handing over the family silver as they so eloquently put it, just trusting someone on the character and credentials of a person is as inexplicable as it is unforgivable. I hate the pair of them.

Empathy, more love for Rafa, and frustration at what would, could, and should have been with him in charge.
The fact that press were being briefed about him being mentally ill? You have to take into consideration that English isn't Rafa's first language, and he is having to have conversations with men who are offering him players in the draft. He must have been as confused as hell. That people use Rafa's politiking as a stick to beat him with is a disgrace. Look at Ferguson at Man Utd, he has sat back, ensured his job security, and allowed the Glazers to rack up the debt into astronomical sums, and whilst the true supporters (much like our own) take the fight to the gobshites he has told them to pipe down and told the world how great the very people raping over their club are. You can tell why he has aged so drastically, it happened pretty much from the summer after Athens. He was forced to take sides, switch sides, trying to consolidate a transfer budget for us, and laterly trying to prevent them asset strip our squad. Without him speaking up we would have been in the dark for a hell of a lot longer.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Rafa's biggest mistake at Liverpool was falling in love with the place the way he did. How many offes did he have to go elsewhere in his time here. Juventus were after him. Real Madrid came knocing on more than one occasion (his boyhood club, his dream job) and he stuck by Liverpool FC, whilst the bellends in charge were offering him draft picks, saying he was mentally ill, chatting up Jurgen fucking Klinnsman, and laterly had an MD who decided he knew better than the European Cup winning manager of Rafa's stature and started making plans of his own. From the cold hearted, calculated Rafa Benitez standpoint he should have fucked us off before that Porto match, but no he and his family stuck with us.

I don't care if this makes me look like a tart who loves Rafa too much, and should move on. We were lucky to have him, and this only reaffirms this fact.

And finally, I don't care if this makes me the worst Liverpool fan in the world, a Rafanista (because apparently in some quarters not ebing happy with their actions equates to being a conspiritor and being a member of a cult), a knobhead. Gerrard and Carragher should have spoke up but they didn't. They are shithouses.
If they said, we just didn't understand or we didn't realise how bad it was until we were in court, then I could just about accept it. But when Reina and Torres were putting themselves out there and opposing the ownership (not just supporting the manager) it was the duty of the captain and VC, the "heart and soul" of the club, "Mr Liverpool I and II" to do the same. I share the view of Pepe on this. They didn't have to back the manager they just had to oppose the ownership. To speak out now, talk about how tough it was for them, and then lump Rafa and Hicks and Gillett in together as part of the problem, is unnacceptable. Will still support them as players but this above any rumblings about their role in Rafa's departure has IMO sullied their legacy.

Fascinating book this will prove to be.
Great post but I feel calling Gerrard and Carragher "shithouses" is a bit strong. Possibly becasue I'm not fully aware of just how instrumental they were in Rafa being forced out.

But anyway, fully agree with he rest.
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Offline lazzathered

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1047 on: April 21, 2011, 12:14:52 am »
Actualy I find finding which thread is now the transfer thread most fun.

one of my favourite hobbies! Definitely going to buy the book, the extracts are so outrageous that I simply have to read the rest

Offline babraham

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1048 on: April 21, 2011, 12:15:06 am »
Lads can someone please explain to me in a bit more detail Rafa breaking down at the service?

Like did the crowd chant his name and that's when he broke down? Was it at a random time - the beginning - the end? What was the general context?
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Offline Hij

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1049 on: April 21, 2011, 12:22:19 am »
Ok I apologise, I was a little harsh, I take back the comment. But no, I've been watching this guy come up with various theories against popular opinion, which were often proved to be wrong and it's very annoying.
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Offline MiserableP15

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1050 on: April 21, 2011, 12:24:34 am »
Lads can someone please explain to me in a bit more detail Rafa breaking down at the service?

Like did the crowd chant his name and that's when he broke down? Was it at a random time - the beginning - the end? What was the general context?

You could also watch it on the website?

Thanked for being there and his contribution.
Modest and heartfelt tears.
Genuine Rafa chant followed.
"So Bierhoff’s got a short time to press his claims, now that the other two strikers who started the match have both been taken off……Kuntz."

Offline babraham

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1051 on: April 21, 2011, 12:31:19 am »
You could also watch it on the website?

Thanked for being there and his contribution.
Modest and heartfelt tears.
Genuine Rafa chant followed.
Oh I assumed it wasn't a freebie, I'll head over there then. Thanks. :)
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Offline Trada

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1052 on: April 21, 2011, 12:36:22 am »
Do you know what?

He's a red, he loves Liverpool as much as the rest of us, but he has very different ideas and opinions to most of us... Deal with it.
He may be a pain to you, but he's one of us and I'd rather be with him than without him... much more lively the way it is 
Don't drive people away because they don't agree with you or they irk you.  He's not offensive, he's not a WUM, just enjoy the arguing.

A twat is a twat which ever way you try to dress it.

And I have no time for a G+H apologist.

It would be simpler for him just to say sorry I was wrong but no he still goes on with the bullshit and misinformation.   
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline 1021

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1053 on: April 21, 2011, 12:42:54 am »
Great post but I feel calling Gerrard and Carragher "shithouses" is a bit strong. Possibly becasue I'm not fully aware of just how instrumental they were in Rafa being forced out.

But anyway, fully agree with he rest.

Cheers mate.
On the "shithouse" comment, I am not bringing into the equation the "conspiracy" that surrounds them and any involvement in Rafa's departure. We all have our own views on the matter, and I don't think that it should be dragged into every discussion on them. For instance, if I think Carra had a bad game, it shouldn't be assumed that I think this because I think "he got Rafa sacked", if I think he had a bad game, I think he had a bad game. If he has a good performance I shouldn't allow my personal opinions to cloud that. And vice versa. It is this part of the extract that motivated me to say it;

Quote
Spanish goalkeeper Pepe Reina told the pair he was amazed they didn’t go public and demand answers. Both admit the dilemma tortured them at the time and still plays on their consciences today. “I totally understand why some of the fans were frustrated we didn’t speak out,” says Gerrard. “When I’m down with England I hear stories about what big players have said at their clubs, but when me and Jamie speak we’re worried people might say, ‘Does he think he’s bigger than Liverpool?’ So it was a horrible situation as I wanted to come out and use my status to help but I was terrified of it backfiring.

“Should I say something? Would it make a difference? Who are we to criticise our bosses? They were the questions I kept asking myself and at times they were on the tip of my tongue. But if I’d wanted to speak to the owners I couldn’t, they were never there. It was a mess.”

Carragher agrees: “Maybe me and Stevie should have come out when we had the power and said something, but we’re from here. We love the club and never like saying anything negative about it. It’s what we believe in. So whatever is thrown at you, you feel you have to take it.

“It’s like if someone in your family does something wrong you’ll still stand behind them even if you want to slag them off.”

The pair’s major worry was how the fans were suffering. Gerrard says: “The lowest point was when the Kop were holding sit-ins to protest. I was thinking, ‘Let’s get them out, enough is enough, the sooner these are out the better.’”

It got to Carragher so much he stopped reading newspapers. “I switched off. I wasn’t reading about football, it was backbiting and bitching and plots and people slagging each other off.

“The game wasn’t played on the pitch but off it. Political games. It became a bad soap opera. I wasn’t just thinking about my game. I was thinking, ‘Whose side should I be on?’ I wished I could do my training and think about nothing else, but it became impossible. I was taking it all home with me.

“In the end I was so pleased the Americans walked away with nothing as they had their chances to sell the club and make their profit but chose not to. They didn’t care about Liverpool – they just cared about themselves.”

It is all conviently after the fact.
Our club was dying this summer, and whilst foriegn players (even one who pissed off to West London in January) were activly opposing Gillett and Hicks ownership of the football club, or at least the lack of investment in the squad. They said nothing. Pepe was "amazed" that they didn't demand answers, and rightfully so. A sentence from either Carragher or Gerrard in the press that summer in opposition to their ownership would have got our cause more press coverage, than all of our rallies, marches, sit ins combined.
We sat inside Anfield after several league games and all we got was a quote or two fromJeff Stelling and Colin Murray mentioning how "we should focus on the football/or look how great the Blackpool supporters are".

Now they are talking about how much hurt they felt on our behalf, but it doesn't help us now. We needed that then. Pepe gave us it, Rafa had given us it, Torres did too, and I think Kuyt might have said something although don't quote me on that. Phil Thompson was fucking brilliant as well and he wasn't arsed who he upset at the club or at his employees who weren't that keen on covering what was going on.

"Who are we to critisise our bosses"
"Whose side were we meant to be on"

No thanks lads, it was blatently clear whose sides we were on and they weren't your bosses they were the people who were raping and pillaging our football club.

If they had said nothing then, and said nothing now I wouldn't be reacting as strongly, I still owuld have been disappointed they they hadn't said anything but then again almost all the other club legends were either clueless, not arsed, or two busy moaning about Rafa spending 20M on Aquilani.
I love them as players, they are hugely important figures, and have helped shape some of the greatest nights of my life. But they let us down big time on this, and to come out now and say how tough it was on them, but hide behind not wanting to say "anything bad about the club" doesn't wash. They chose not to speak out and are now making out like they were tortured by it.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

Offline babraham

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1054 on: April 21, 2011, 12:45:06 am »
Oh I assumed it wasn't a freebie, I'll head over there then. Thanks. :)
Well now I'm all choked up too. :'(

For anyone who hadn't seen it:
http://thekop.liverpoolfc.tv/_Rafa-Crying-YNWA-/video/1563894/173471.html
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Offline shelovesyou

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1055 on: April 21, 2011, 12:47:59 am »
We must remember here that football players are generally none the fucking wiser on how a football club is run. They are legends at the club and like it or not im sure they felt they were doing what was best for the club by not speaking up, in the sense that they didnt want the clubs dirty linen out in the public domain.
Footballers are thick, we all know that.
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Offline 1021

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1056 on: April 21, 2011, 12:52:29 am »
We must remember here that football players are generally none the fucking wiser on how a football club is run. They are legends at the club and like it or not im sure they felt they were doing what was best for the club by not speaking up, in the sense that they didnt want the clubs dirty linen out in the public domain.
Footballers are thick, we all know that.

But it already was. A few months later we were in court, dirty linen doesn't get any more public!
Them saying nothing then wasn't great but fair enough if they said we don't understand we just want to get on with our football.
Then fair enough, but they are saying here that they were hurting/they wanted the Yanks out/ they were with us, but at the same time saying that they could say anything/ they didn't know who they were fighting/ they didn't want to appear bigger than the club.
Doesn't make sense.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

Offline snowlion

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1057 on: April 21, 2011, 12:55:08 am »
New valuation from Forbes came out today:

http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/20/worlds-most-valuable-soccer-teams_slide_10.html

#9 Liverpool
Owner/Majority Shareholder: John Henry, Tom Werner
Stadium: Anfield (Seating Capacity:45,300)
Current Value: $552 mil
1-yr Value Change (U.S.): -33%
Revenues: $276 mil

New England Sports Ventures paid $476 million to buy the debt-laden team from Tom Hicks and George Gillett in October.
Make Us Dream

Offline Trada

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1058 on: April 21, 2011, 12:58:51 am »
We must remember here that football players are generally none the fucking wiser on how a football club is run. They are legends at the club and like it or not im sure they felt they were doing what was best for the club by not speaking up, in the sense that they didnt want the clubs dirty linen out in the public domain.
Footballers are thick, we all know that.

But you always seemed to know what Rafa was thinking and couldn't wait to put him down and tell everyone on here, you are just another G+H apologist.

Who couldn't wait to grind the clubs face in the mud because you thought your views were above everyone else's Fat Scouser got ban a few times for calling you the word that summed up your posts.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline El Campeador

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1059 on: April 21, 2011, 01:00:34 am »
The lad El C quoted was calling SG & Carra shithouses.

Calling them shithouses is very, very harsh and unfair. Both are legends of the type rarely seen even by our own high standards. And if we could turn back time fifteen years, we'd still line pick them 1 and 2 if given the first two picks.

Offline Ipcress

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1060 on: April 21, 2011, 01:09:32 am »
Quote from Gerrard as to why he didn't speak out was concerned that people would ask ‘Does he think he’s bigger than Liverpool?’

This leads to some disappointing conclusions, that he cared what people thought about him more than doing the right thing, or that he himself thought that Reina speaking out meant that Reina thought he was bigger than the club and that Pepe was out of order.

Did he ever express an opinion on the fans protests?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 01:12:01 am by Ipcress »
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Offline Ambrosia

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1061 on: April 21, 2011, 01:13:25 am »
Quote from Gerrard as to why he didn't speak out was concerned that people would ask ‘Does he think he’s bigger than Liverpool?’

This leads to some disappointing conclusions, that he gave what people thought about him more than doing the right thing, or that he himself thought that Reina speaking out meant that Reina thought he was bigger than the club and that Pepe was out of order.

Did he ever express an opinion on the fans protests?
No, he didn't.

I'm just curious why Reade isn't calling them out for their cowardice, but instead is giving them a platform to air their sniveling excuses.

to be honest, i had moved on from the Carra/Gerrard conspiricies, but all this is bringing back my anger. Would have been better for both Carra/Gerrard if they'd been left out of the book.

Offline 1021

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1062 on: April 21, 2011, 01:15:20 am »
Calling them shithouses is very, very harsh and unfair. Both are legends of the type rarely seen even by our own high standards. And if we could turn back time fifteen years, we'd still line pick them 1 and 2 if given the first two picks.

I called them the shithouses.
And I am not taking away one bit from the fact that the two of them are legends, have been/are/will continue to be hugely important players for us. I don't want to take away from that. And don't intend to. But I stand by what I called them, I am angry about it. In a few years time when the dust has settled perhaps I will feel differently, but that's what I feel like now regarding it.

"Cowardly", might be a better turn of phrase/ or at leaast more pallatble to some, but at the end of the day I feel let down by the way they have positioned themselves now as to being totally against the regime of Hicks and Gillett, whilst fearing the repercussions of "speaking out against their bosses".

« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 01:32:13 am by 1021 »
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

Offline babraham

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1063 on: April 21, 2011, 01:27:10 am »
Cheers mate.
On the "shithouse" comment, I am not bringing into the equation the "conspiracy" that surrounds them and any involvement in Rafa's departure. We all have our own views on the matter, and I don't think that it should be dragged into every discussion on them. For instance, if I think Carra had a bad game, it shouldn't be assumed that I think this because I think "he got Rafa sacked", if I think he had a bad game, I think he had a bad game. If he has a good performance I shouldn't allow my personal opinions to cloud that. And vice versa. It is this part of the extract that motivated me to say it;

It is all conviently after the fact.
Our club was dying this summer, and whilst foriegn players (even one who pissed off to West London in January) were activly opposing Gillett and Hicks ownership of the football club, or at least the lack of investment in the squad. They said nothing. Pepe was "amazed" that they didn't demand answers, and rightfully so. A sentence from either Carragher or Gerrard in the press that summer in opposition to their ownership would have got our cause more press coverage, than all of our rallies, marches, sit ins combined.
We sat inside Anfield after several league games and all we got was a quote or two fromJeff Stelling and Colin Murray mentioning how "we should focus on the football/or look how great the Blackpool supporters are".

Now they are talking about how much hurt they felt on our behalf, but it doesn't help us now. We needed that then. Pepe gave us it, Rafa had given us it, Torres did too, and I think Kuyt might have said something although don't quote me on that. Phil Thompson was fucking brilliant as well and he wasn't arsed who he upset at the club or at his employees who weren't that keen on covering what was going on.

"Who are we to critisise our bosses"
"Whose side were we meant to be on"

No thanks lads, it was blatently clear whose sides we were on and they weren't your bosses they were the people who were raping and pillaging our football club.

If they had said nothing then, and said nothing now I wouldn't be reacting as strongly, I still owuld have been disappointed they they hadn't said anything but then again almost all the other club legends were either clueless, not arsed, or two busy moaning about Rafa spending 20M on Aquilani.
I love them as players, they are hugely important figures, and have helped shape some of the greatest nights of my life. But they let us down big time on this, and to come out now and say how tough it was on them, but hide behind not wanting to say "anything bad about the club" doesn't wash. They chose not to speak out and are now making out like they were tortured by it.
Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from.

The cliche of footballers being thick comes to mind though. You mentioned other club legends etc moaning about Rafa and what not rather than the ownership.

The extract points to them perhaps not being completely ignorant to what was happening but that doesn't mean they weren't ignorant on how they should handle it - which they were.

I don't question either's loyalty. They're footballers and had to deal with non-football matters. They got it wrong but it's not something they should ever had had to deal with.

They were trying to do the right thing in a difficult and unfamiliar situation. They were thick but only ever had the club's best interests at heart and so I won't call them shithouses - just thick.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1064 on: April 21, 2011, 01:45:11 am »
Everyone has their opinion but I cant say well done Torres and feck SG & Carragher in regards to getting on the owners back when Torres bailed ship the first chance he got.  Not the Liverpool way and surely it was best for everyone to work behind closed doors and see how things worked out esp when the sale of the club was pending for a year & more. I just got sick of the public airing of the feud / issues etc as it was embarassing to see the club / owners drag themselves through the dirt. How great it is to see how things are getting done now...Torres fecked off, repalcements brought in. Clarke signed Kenny as well with no fuss at all....this is how you conduct the business at this club.
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Offline Letchworthred

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1065 on: April 21, 2011, 01:57:19 am »
Ordered the book. Looking forward to reading it. I hope that this thread stay open long enough for the debate to continue, because though we have moved on and it was an ugly saga, it was an important one. And some of the effects of the regime are still being felt today.

I don't think I can accurately discribe my emotions reading the three extracts. Anger, frustration, finding the whole thing laughable, disbelife, anger again, sadness, a great deal more anger, and relief.

Three things have struck me.
The general incompetence of Gillett and Hicks. I mean, I think I have given them too much credit.  For a while I thought they were evil masterminds, horrible capatilist driven, money grabbing scumbags. Then as the regime grew longer, their incompetence grew more and more apparent. I cannot remember who, but at the SOS Independence Day Rally, I remember one of the speakers referring to them as the "poorest billionaires in history". But the idea that they were running around grabbing choc ices, falling out over who had the best scarf, and offering one of Europes finest tacticians a treadmill as part of his transfer budget, they sound mentally ill.
They should never have been allowed anywhere near the football club. Incompetence extended to theose responsible for the deal. Parry and Moores should be fucking ashamed of themselves. A google search as we later found out couold have told us a hell of a lot about these cowboys, but for fucks sake when handing over the family silver as they so eloquently put it, just trusting someone on the character and credentials of a person is as inexplicable as it is unforgivable. I hate the pair of them.

Empathy, more love for Rafa, and frustration at what would, could, and should have been with him in charge.
The fact that press were being briefed about him being mentally ill? You have to take into consideration that English isn't Rafa's first language, and he is having to have conversations with men who are offering him players in the draft. He must have been as confused as hell. That people use Rafa's politiking as a stick to beat him with is a disgrace. Look at Ferguson at Man Utd, he has sat back, ensured his job security, and allowed the Glazers to rack up the debt into astronomical sums, and whilst the true supporters (much like our own) take the fight to the gobshites he has told them to pipe down and told the world how great the very people raping over their club are. You can tell why he has aged so drastically, it happened pretty much from the summer after Athens. He was forced to take sides, switch sides, trying to consolidate a transfer budget for us, and laterly trying to prevent them asset strip our squad. Without him speaking up we would have been in the dark for a hell of a lot longer.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Rafa's biggest mistake at Liverpool was falling in love with the place the way he did. How many offes did he have to go elsewhere in his time here. Juventus were after him. Real Madrid came knocing on more than one occasion (his boyhood club, his dream job) and he stuck by Liverpool FC, whilst the bellends in charge were offering him draft picks, saying he was mentally ill, chatting up Jurgen fucking Klinnsman, and laterly had an MD who decided he knew better than the European Cup winning manager of Rafa's stature and started making plans of his own. From the cold hearted, calculated Rafa Benitez standpoint he should have fucked us off before that Porto match, but no he and his family stuck with us.

I don't care if this makes me look like a tart who loves Rafa too much, and should move on. We were lucky to have him, and this only reaffirms this fact.

And finally, I don't care if this makes me the worst Liverpool fan in the world, a Rafanista (because apparently in some quarters not ebing happy with their actions equates to being a conspiritor and being a member of a cult), a knobhead. Gerrard and Carragher should have spoke up but they didn't. They are shithouses.
If they said, we just didn't understand or we didn't realise how bad it was until we were in court, then I could just about accept it. But when Reina and Torres were putting themselves out there and opposing the ownership (not just supporting the manager) it was the duty of the captain and VC, the "heart and soul" of the club, "Mr Liverpool I and II" to do the same. I share the view of Pepe on this. They didn't have to back the manager they just had to oppose the ownership. To speak out now, talk about how tough it was for them, and then lump Rafa and Hicks and Gillett in together as part of the problem, is unnacceptable. Will still support them as players but this above any rumblings about their role in Rafa's departure has IMO sullied their legacy.

Fascinating book this will prove to be.

Class post this. Agree wholeheartedly with all the points you raise.

Offline 1021

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1066 on: April 21, 2011, 01:59:14 am »
Everyone has their opinion but I cant say well done Torres and feck SG & Carragher in regards to getting on the owners back when Torres bailed ship the first chance he got.  Not the Liverpool way and surely it was best for everyone to work behind closed doors and see how things worked out esp when the sale of the club was pending for a year & more. I just got sick of the public airing of the feud / issues etc as it was embarassing to see the club / owners drag themselves through the dirt. How great it is to see how things are getting done now...Torres fecked off, repalcements brought in. Clarke signed Kenny as well with no fuss at all....this is how you conduct the business at this club.

The thing is though, and it is a shame it always happens with these threads, it always decends into arguments about Gerrard/Carragher/Rafa when the enemies in all of this are Hicks/Gillet/Purslow.
I know I haven't helped because I called them shithouses, and I hope that this won't cause the thread to be lost, because it was only one of many things I and many others took from the extracts of what will be an incredible, explosive read.
I took exception with a few things they said, and I stand by this. But the real villians of the piece (whatever your views of these senior players) were the former owners.
At the end of the day they were the ones tearing our club apart, handing out cornettos, calling our manager mentally ill, thinking our captain was gay, offering treadmills, approaching Klinnsman. There is far more to this story than Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1067 on: April 21, 2011, 02:02:22 am »
I'm just curious why Reade isn't calling them out for their cowardice, but instead is giving them a platform to air their sniveling excuses.

I think Reade played this well. Instead of passing his own judgment on their cowardice, he gave them a chance to put forward their version of reality.

And that part about them being like kids with bickering parents, was a good analogy. To me, they indeed behaved like kids who only ever wanted the argument to stop instead of trying to understand why it happened, and how they could help.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1068 on: April 21, 2011, 02:02:55 am »
I called them the shithouses.
And I am not taking away one bit from the fact that the two of them are legends, have been/are/will continue to be hugely important players for us. I don't want to take away from that. And don't intend to. But I stand by what I called them, I am angry about it. In a few years time when the dust has settled perhaps I will feel differently, but that's what I feel like now regarding it.

"Cowardly", might be a better turn of phrase/ or at leaast more pallatble to some, but at the end of the day I feel let down by the way they have positioned themselves now as to being totally against the regime of Hicks and Gillett, whilst fearing the repercussions of "speaking out against their bosses".



The indigestion in the pits of some of our stomachs may be rooted in watching legends on the pitch not being legendary off it.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1069 on: April 21, 2011, 02:04:33 am »
The thing is though, and it is a shame it always happens with these threads, it always decends into arguments about Gerrard/Carragher/Rafa when the enemies in all of this are Hicks/Gillet/Purslow.
I know I haven't helped because I called them shithouses, and I hope that this won't cause the thread to be lost, because it was only one of many things I and many others took from the extracts of what will be an incredible, explosive read.
I took exception with a few things they said, and I stand by this. But the real villians of the piece (whatever your views of these senior players) were the former owners.
At the end of the day they were the ones tearing our club apart, handing out cornettos, calling our manager mentally ill, thinking our captain was gay, offering treadmills, approaching Klinnsman. There is far more to this story than Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher.

Be my mouthpiece please. Because you put forward so well want I want to say, but without the cussing and getting warned then banned  ;D
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1070 on: April 21, 2011, 02:16:32 am »
The thing is though, and it is a shame it always happens with these threads, it always decends into arguments about Gerrard/Carragher/Rafa when the enemies in all of this are Hicks/Gillet/Purslow.
I know I haven't helped because I called them shithouses, and I hope that this won't cause the thread to be lost, because it was only one of many things I and many others took from the extracts of what will be an incredible, explosive read.
I took exception with a few things they said, and I stand by this. But the real villians of the piece (whatever your views of these senior players) were the former owners.
At the end of the day they were the ones tearing our club apart, handing out cornettos, calling our manager mentally ill, thinking our captain was gay, offering treadmills, approaching Klinnsman. There is far more to this story than Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher.

Yes it is a shame when you could have stuck with your guns in regards to the Yanks or Rafa which I pretty much agree with …without referring to SG or Carragher while still praising a deserter who is now fighting for us in the colours of Chelsea.

So yes there is a lot more to this book than SG or Carragher so lets concentrate on that discussion instead of undermining lads who are still here while somehow giving kudos to that knob Torres.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 02:25:13 am by fowlermagic »
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Offline 1021

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1071 on: April 21, 2011, 02:36:20 am »
Yes it is a shame when you could have stuck with your guns in regards to the Yanks or Rafa which I pretty much agree with …without referring to SG or Carragher while still praising a deserter who is now fighting for us in the colours of Chelsea.

So yes there is a lot more to this book than SG or Carragher so lets concentrate on that discussion instead of undermining lads who are still here while somehow giving kudos to that knob Torres.


I don't want the thread to get locked as they have done in the past, but I stand by my comments about Gerrard and Carragher.
I just don't believe that they were all I said in the post or that they were even the most important thing, they are however what gets latched onto because for one reason or another people don't accept that the two of them can do any wrong/have done any wrong.

Fernando Torres alongside Pepe Reina spoke out against the owners.
One of them later went on to panic about his career, and fuck off in pursuit of a few bits of tin, badmouthing our club in the process.
They spoke out though. At that point in time Fernando Torres was a Liverpool player and he openly criticised the transfer policy of the American owners and said that it was a massive factor in the poor season we had last year. When I read what he said a year ago I agreed with him,I said "Good lad Fernando", I also thought he was golden haired angel who would one day lead us to glory. Just because he turned out to be a bit of a bellend doesn't mean he wasn't right in what he said at the time, and that it wasn't helpful that a key player had critisised what they were doing.

I reacted to some comments in the extract I dislike/didn't agree with. I don't see what the problem is there. It is part of a wider point and as I was trying to say SG/JC need not be the centre of the discussion (especially when they aren't the centre of what the book is about). They are an intresting sidenote to a much larger issue, and much more important one.
I got the Lucas thing wrong. Will be right on Henderson though. Play him RM, play him CM - Not good enough and never will be.

Offline mercury

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1072 on: April 21, 2011, 04:14:42 am »
1021, mate, good posts. 

Just to want to say, we human are so full of frailties.  People like to think of themselves as strong men but there's the old wisdom:  it's easier said than done.  When reality strikes few can do what they have thought or said how it should be done.  Afterwards, there are all sort of justifications.  Sometimes these are true, sometimes not.

Most of the times I prefer not to pass judgement though what happen does give insight into the men in front of us.  Well they are only human - am I a better (wo)man than these people really?   We however can certainly appreciate even more those who did what should be done, despite everything, and showed themselves to be the true leader of men. 


Well now I'm all choked up too. :'(

For anyone who hadn't seen it:
http://thekop.liverpoolfc.tv/_Rafa-Crying-YNWA-/video/1563894/173471.html

Thanks.  Everyone in this video has made us proud.

YNWA.


Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1073 on: April 21, 2011, 04:35:54 am »
Of course they have done wrong but there is so many rights from them over the years that some hesitation to call out the owners when so many other players did the exact same…kept quiet hoping it would get all sorted ..should allow them more of a pass than calling them shithouses. I mean we save that term for some of the scum that have played for opposing teams so damn right I will latch on to it. Very fecking disrespectful to guys who will be in the top 3 players ever to make appearances for the club when they retire. Shithouses?? Get a grip as every person has had their moment of weaknesses but overall these lads have bled for the club more than most including you. As you said let it be and if you want to carry this useless debate any further then PM me. Thanks
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Offline tea_tree

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1074 on: April 21, 2011, 05:57:30 am »
Storm in a teacup. Get a grip, there's more to this than Gerrard & Carragher or one poster's opinion about them (though it was stated clearly & supported with sensible arguments) so lets not make it about them eh.
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Offline Lofty Ambitions

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1075 on: April 21, 2011, 06:06:33 am »
Catharsis is a process not a law.

Indeed. We need the truth, we need the discussion to get this out of our systems as a community.

Top posts, 1021.  I agree with you this was not Gerrard's and Carra's finest moment. I believe they are realising it now, I would really like them to admit as much. Just to see the thing finally past us.

I am in the belief that if the local lads would have given more support to the Spanish contingent, the media would have been quicker to get on our side. Regardless of the way Torres departed us, he did come out to the open several times, asking for funds, pointing out the broken promises. I have nothing but respect for him for the role he played in this fight. We all knew what happened later, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Still. Let us not forget who the real enemy was. But let us not close our eyes on how everything unfolded either.

Happy days today, but I am still heartbroken about it all. Like everyone, I had locked most of it away while enjoying the Return of The King. This thread brought everything back. Catharsis properly started now?

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Offline Lofty Ambitions

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1076 on: April 21, 2011, 06:09:31 am »
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/catharsis

A release of emotional tension after an overwhelming vicarious experience, resulting in the purging or purification of the emotions, as through watching a dramatic production (especially a tragedy). Coined in this sense by Aristotle.
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1077 on: April 21, 2011, 08:20:53 am »
The extent of the difficulties that Rafa faced is now painfully apparent, although no surprise to me. So far though a key question is left unexplained. Given that Rafa knew the cut of these pirates jib, why did he sign a new five year contract with them, helping to secure RBS refinance, when to have held back would have ramped up the pressure and could have brought them down earlier? Perhape we will have to wait for Rafa's book for that.

LOLZ

I can see why your title is "arch revisionist"

At the time (ie summer of 2009), you were very keen to tell everyone that the refinance was simply a formality, because G&H had a good relationship with the bank, and because G&H had an "option" (as you kept calling it) to renew the loans.

Two years later, when events have proven you spectacularly wrong, you're now trying to say that it was Rafa's fault that G&H got that renewal in Jul 09.

The actual situation is what me and many other people tried to explain to you at the time.  The banks outright pulling the plug at that time was no more than a remote possibility.  What was more likely (and, as we now know, did actually occur) was that the banks would put stringent conditions on a refinance which would damage the club, but would also put a timebomb under G&H's ownership.


The unanswered question about the relationship between Rafa, his contract renewal, and the refinance, are these.

1.  Rafa believed he had assurances re how much he would have to spend.  Later he was told that his "spend" included contract renewals.  So was Rafa sloppy in getting confirmation, &/or was he merely allowed to make a mistake in his misunderstanding?  Alternatively, was he outright given a promise about his budget, which was then broken.

2.  At the time the club and Rafa discussed the budget, leading to Rafa signing an extension, did the owners genuinely think that there would be money available or not.  It's irrrelevant in some ways because the outcome (that rafa didnt get the money and felt betrayed) was the same.  It's also the case that only a blind fool would have expected the refinance to go without a hitch.  But, nonetheless, I'd be interested to know if the owners were indeed blind fools, or if, instead, they deliberately misrepresented the situation to Rafa.





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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1078 on: April 21, 2011, 08:39:16 am »
LOLZ

I can see why your title is "arch revisionist"

At the time (ie summer of 2009), you were very keen to tell everyone that the refinance was simply a formality, because G&H had a good relationship with the bank, and because G&H had an "option" (as you kept calling it) to renew the loans.

Two years later, when events have proven you spectacularly wrong, you're now trying to say that it was Rafa's fault that G&H got that renewal in Jul 09.

The actual situation is what me and many other people tried to explain to you at the time.  The banks outright pulling the plug at that time was no more than a remote possibility.  What was more likely (and, as we now know, did actually occur) was that the banks would put stringent conditions on a refinance which would damage the club, but would also put a timebomb under G&H's ownership.


The unanswered question about the relationship between Rafa, his contract renewal, and the refinance, are these.

1.  Rafa believed he had assurances re how much he would have to spend.  Later he was told that his "spend" included contract renewals.  So was Rafa sloppy in getting confirmation, &/or was he merely allowed to make a mistake in his misunderstanding?  Alternatively, was he outright given a promise about his budget, which was then broken.

2.  At the time the club and Rafa discussed the budget, leading to Rafa signing an extension, did the owners genuinely think that there would be money available or not.  It's irrrelevant in some ways because the outcome (that rafa didnt get the money and felt betrayed) was the same.  It's also the case that only a blind fool would have expected the refinance to go without a hitch.  But, nonetheless, I'd be interested to know if the owners were indeed blind fools, or if, instead, they deliberately misrepresented the situation to Rafa.





Time provides an ongoing opportunity to revise and review events.

I never said that refinance was a formality. I never claimed a good relationship between G&H and the banks. I did  point out that the terms of the loan provided for new terms to be offered (with increasingly onerous and punitive terms). That was confirmed to me informally by an RBS employee who was part of the team. That is not the same as an option to renew which I never claimed. An easy mistake to make.Events proved me right.

You simply repeat what I told you, not vice versa, but hey ho, “there is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth etc...” If you have finally got it two years on, I am satisfied.

Your final two questions are interesting, it would be fascinating to know the answers.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #1079 on: April 21, 2011, 08:56:14 am »
Locked for a bit for everyone to cool off. When Brian Reade decides to write is book "Tit-for-Tat: 45 Threads on RAWK" we can all discuss who said what and when.

Brian Reade's book looks like it will be a very interesting read when it comes out. At the moment the Mirror will be releasing chapters with a view to creating maximum controversy and I expect there will plenty of juicy revelations over the Easter weekend. The thread will be reopened on Easter Sunday for people who want to discuss the book. Anyone wanting to slag off other users can do one.

Thank you for your patience and we apologise for any inconvenience this may cause. This has been a public service announcement by the RAWK moderating team.
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