Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership

[rowan_d]

It's really not knee jerk we need 2 new starting centre halfs we are soft as shit in there the amount of times we lose
goals because they switch off and dom't do the basics is frustrating as hell.
Danny would be brilliant in Spain but he's not suited to England he's too soft the tattoos are just masking the fact that
he's a girls blouse.

I disagree there. This is the first season since he's been here where he's been switching off so often

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Maybe I am over- thinking things here, but both signed a new contract in the summer. Have they switched off a bit?

[Discipline]

Start them both together ffs.

[The G in Gerrard]

Baffled why this thread has updated since yesterday since this partnership hasn't played for a while

[kingz]

We definitely need an experienced top class center back this summer who does the basics very well .. Someone like Sami who we never replaced will make a huge deference to our defense and will keep Agger or skertel more concentrating  ..

[killer-heels]

Baffled why this thread has updated since yesterday since this partnership hasn't played for a while

More because of the individual errors we have seen from both players.

[Carlito Roberto]

What partnership?

[LFCDad]

Start them both together ffs.

This.

Skrtel would have been marking Giroud, Dzeko, and Lukaku for all those mistakes Agger made. Skrtel's marking isn't shite, in fact he gets too tight on the ball.

Carragher Agger just does not work even though people seem to be thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (we've conceded 2 goals a game since Norwich).

Skrtel is the guy who gets close to the lone strikers that most teams play, whilst Agger is normally covering. Agger is having to do the tight marking whilst Carra covers and it's not working.

[Discipline]

More because of the individual errors we have seen from both players.

Bar the game against Stoke and Villa, I can't think of too many mistakes the duo have had since the return of Lucas.

They make A LOT more individual mistakes when they're not partnered together. They compliment each other well, as good as Carragher has been playing lately, these two need to play together.

[killer-heels]

Bar the game against Stoke and Villa, I can't think of too many mistakes the duo have had since the return of Lucas.

They make A LOT more individual mistakes when they're not partnered together. They compliment each other well, as good as Carragher has been playing lately, these two need to play together.

I don't see how  Skrtel not being there was the cause of Agger letting Giroud, Lukaku, WBA centre back yesterday, Dzeko and Van Persie (latter can be excused) getting the better of him.

[LFCDad]

I don't see how  Skrtel not being there was the cause of Agger letting Giroud, Lukaku, WBA centre back yesterday, Dzeko and Van Persie (latter can be excused) getting the better of him.

I explained that above, it's how a centre back partnership works.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

I disagree there. This is the first season since he's been here where he's been switching off so often

He never played that much with us over the course of the season though, he often played about 20 games maximum in the season, maybe the fact that he never completed a season with us before masked his mistakes.

[Discipline]

He never played that much with us over the course of the season though, he often played about 20 games maximum in the season, maybe the fact that he never completed a season with us before masked his mistakes.

Or perhaps the Carragher - Agger partnership doesn't work?

[The G in Gerrard]

He never played that much with us over the course of the season though, he often played about 20 games maximum in the season, maybe the fact that he never completed a season with us before masked his mistakes.

So because we are getting more games out of him is a bad thing?

[killer-heels]

I explained that above, it's how a centre back partnership works.

Disagree completely. Defenders have to be able to defend and not saying Agger cannot but top defenders do not lose their men that easily.

Its a lack of form probably and nobody is saying we should sell but there is no convincing argument or evidence thus far that makes me believe that Agger and Skrtel, together anyway, have enough about them to make us into a top four team. We need a first choice centre back and he should play with either Skrtel or Agger, with the hope that form of those players improve enough to stop making these basic mistakes.

[Discipline]

I don't see how  Skrtel not being there was the cause of Agger letting Giroud, Lukaku, WBA centre back yesterday, Dzeko and Van Persie (latter can be excused) getting the better of him.

Read LFCdad's post above.

Carragher and Agger don't have the same understanding that Agger and Skrtel have.

Skrtel isn't scared of marking the physical defender. Agger is. And Carragher isn't tall enough.

[killer-heels]

Read LFCdad's post above.

Carragher and Agger don't have the same understanding that Agger and Skrtel have.

Skrtel isn't scared of marking the physical defender. Agger is. And Carragher isn't tall enough.

Its a bit of a disadvantage if Agger is afraid of marking a physical defender, seeing as there is a chance oppositions will have maybe 2 of those in the Premier League?

[Discipline]

Disagree completely. Defenders have to be able to defend and not saying Agger cannot but top defenders do not lose their men that easily.

Its a lack of form probably and nobody is saying we should sell but there is no convincing argument or evidence thus far that makes me believe that Agger and Skrtel, together anyway, have enough about them to make us into a top four team. We need a first choice centre back and he should play with either Skrtel or Agger, with the hope that form of those players improve enough to stop making these basic mistakes.

Again. Which basic mistakes have they done together since the return of Lucas?

It's a genuine question. The only games I would say they were bad were against Stoke and Villa. Where every player in a red shirt was poor.

[Discipline]

Its a bit of a disadvantage if Agger is afraid of marking a physical defender, seeing as there is a chance oppositions will have maybe 2 of those in the Premier League?

There's mostly always one.

Skrtel has always dealed with them.

You can go through every game. Skrtel always picks up the stronger forward let it be a set piece or an aerial due from a clearence from a goal-kick etc. Agger is basically the sweeper.

[killer-heels]

Again. Which basic mistakes have they done together since the return of Lucas?

It's a genuine question. The only games I would say they were bad were against Stoke and Villa. Where every player in a red shirt was poor.

Again, I have explained I don't see how Skrtel not being there has caused Agger's lapses in concentration because even on the floor he lost  Lukaku and Van Persie.

But, we will agree to disagree.

What I do believe is that Rodgers will be bringing someone in and I think that person will be first choice, as his comments and dropping of Skrtel may have illustrated.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Read LFCdad's post above.

Carragher and Agger don't have the same understanding that Agger and Skrtel have.

Skrtel isn't scared of marking the physical defender. Agger is. And Carragher isn't tall enough.

It is not about the physicality, it is about those lapses in concentration that makes his markers get away from him time after time, for his "physical" presence, Skrtel got dominated by the likes of Benteke, Walters & Smith of Oldham like he was a Sunday league player.

Bottom line is, with their lapses of concentrations, we can't depend on both of them to be consistent enough to make us reach the top four next season.

[killer-heels]

There's mostly always one.

Skrtel has always dealed with them.

You can go through every game. Skrtel always picks up the stronger forward let it be a set piece or an aerial due from a clearence from a goal-kick etc. Agger is basically the sweeper.

So basically, if Agger has to mark a strong centre back, we are in trouble?

Anyway, Skrtel got dominated by Carlton Cole and Benteke. So he isn't that strong either is he?

[jackh]

The first goal was an awful one to concede - could not believe how much space McAuley had when he connected with the ball.  I think it's fair to say that the set piece marking/heading aren't the strongest elements of Agger's games, though nor do I believe them to be an overt weakness - through seven years at the club, he's not been a dominant and commanding defensive centre back but neither have we suffered with a any particular regularity for that reason...evidently just going through a tough period, on the pitch, that we can hopefully support him out of.

I actually feel as though attributing blame for the second goal to Agger is a touch harsh - Lukaku is quite the opponent and the question as to how to deal with him crossed my mind...if you stand off him, he's good enough on the ball to set his direction and go through the gears and beat you for pace and, if you get tight to him, hjs touch and strength are such that he'll just roll you and then break into stride.

Looked like some sort of Drogba-Torres hybrid - Chelsea have got a monster, there.

[LFCDad]

Disagree completely. Defenders have to be able to defend and not saying Agger cannot but top defenders do not lose their men that easily.

Its a lack of form probably and nobody is saying we should sell but there is no convincing argument or evidence thus far that makes me believe that Agger and Skrtel, together anyway, have enough about them to make us into a top four team. We need a first choice centre back and he should play with either Skrtel or Agger, with the hope that form of those players improve enough to stop making these basic mistakes.

You probably would, but you're mistaken if you don't think that's how the best central defensive partnerships work. In fact you're been bloody blind to think that all the best defenders in the world have every single attribute that a central defender requires.

How do you think Ferdinand-Vidic, Carvalho-Terry, Carragher-Hyypia, Puyol-Pique, Hummels-Subotic have worked?

Centre back pairings are efficient when they are allocated the work they are best at. I don't think our centre backs know what tehy are supposed to be doing off the ball.

[LFCDad]

So basically, if Agger has to mark a strong centre back, we are in trouble?

Anyway, Skrtel got dominated by Carlton Cole and Benteke. So he isn't that strong either is he?

and using your silly argument I guess Vidic is absolute shite, as he got dominated by Torres, same with that Fabio Cannavaro when he was at Inter and Real Madrid, Torres at him for breakfast. Torres isnt even a strong striker yet he dominated these two. Cannavaro iss really shit as is Vidic.

[killer-heels]

You probably would, but you're mistaken if you don't think that's how the best central defensive partnerships work. In fact you're been bloody blind to think that all the best defenders in the world have every single attribute that a central defender requires.

How do you think Ferdinand-Vidic, Carvalho-Terry, Carragher-Hyypia, Puyol-Pique have worked?

I don't know about the last two and I certainly know that all of them have made mistakes in their careers. But there are countless times where different players have troubled and really affected our centre backs and while the likes of even Vidic have gotten destroyed by Torres, there is no way any of those defenders have been consistently so lapse.

Benteke, Cole, that Oldham striker Smith, Giroud's goal, Van Persie's goal, both West Brom goals. There is no way them centre backs would have dominated or made so many mistakes in one season.

[Discipline]

Again, I have explained I don't see how Skrtel not being there has caused Agger's lapses in concentration because even on the floor he lost  Lukaku and Van Persie.

But, we will agree to disagree.

What I do believe is that Rodgers will be bringing someone in and I think that person will be first choice, as his comments and dropping of Skrtel may have illustrated.

Because Skrtel and Agger are always covering each other. They have that mental understanding.

Put Agger and Carragher together and they're always pointing at each other to man-mark someone up. There's always blaming fingers.

How is Skrtel at fault for Agger being on the floor when he's not even on the pitch?

Agger was caught out of position against RvP because Wisdom was caught out, not because of a Skrtel mistake. 

[LFCDad]

I don't know about the last two and I certainly know that all of them have made mistakes in their careers. But there are countless times where different players have troubled and really affected our centre backs and while the likes of even Vidic have gotten destroyed by Torres, there is no way any of those defenders have been consistently so lapse.

Benteke, Cole, that Oldham striker Smith, Giroud's goal, Van Persie's goal, both West Brom goals. There is no way them centre backs would have dominated or made so many mistakes in one season.

and what about last season? or did you miss all those games? Anyway I'm off, tired of defending loyal servants of our club on this site this morning.

[killer-heels]

and what about last season? or did you miss all those games? Anyway I'm off, tired of defending loyal servants of our club on this site this morning.

What did I say earlier? Its probably a lack of form.

Also, I stated clearly we shouldn't sell them or anything.

I just stated that I still think we need another top centre back to get us into top 4 and disagree with the notion that Agger and Skrtel as a partnership is good enough for top 4.

Anyway,  I am sure their loyalty and pride is hurt over a few comments over the internet.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Some of the excuses are laughable in here.

[steveeastend]

Because Skrtel and Agger are always covering each other. They have that mental understanding.

Put Agger and Carragher together and they're always pointing at each other to man-mark someone up. There's always blaming fingers.

How is Skrtel at fault for Agger being on the floor when he's not even on the pitch?

Agger was caught out of position against RvP because Wisdom was caught out, not because of a Skrtel mistake. 

Exactly!

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Was Rodgers a centreback ?

[RedHopper]

The first goal was an awful one to concede - could not believe how much space McAuley had when he connected with the ball.  I think it's fair to say that the set piece marking/heading aren't the strongest elements of Agger's games, though nor do I believe them to be an overt weakness - through seven years at the club, he's not been a dominant and commanding defensive centre back but neither have we suffered with a any particular regularity for that reason...evidently just going through a tough period, on the pitch, that we can hopefully support him out of.

it's not just this season though. Agger has fundamental weaknesses in his game that he just doesn't seem to be interested in addressing.

I actually feel as though attributing blame for the second goal to Agger is a touch harsh - Lukaku is quite the opponent and the question as to how to deal with him crossed my mind...if you stand off him, he's good enough on the ball to set his direction and go through the gears and beat you for pace and, if you get tight to him, hjs touch and strength are such that he'll just roll you and then break into stride.

agger loses all sense of orientation on the pitch, and stands completely square to lukaku when he flicks the ball on. His body should be turned at an angle, and leaning towards his own goal, because all lukaku has to do is flick the ball past him, and he's dead in the water, and stuck with a standing start. again it's basic defending you can see it here. it's a terrible mistake, one that has nothing to do with martin skrtel or jamie carragher, and everything to do with agger not having a strong enough grasp of the basics of defending. We should have had defensive targets lined up in the summer and snapped off city's hand when they offered us £22 million. that was madness.

[John Zac]

Skrtel got beaten by Benteke is being said over and over. Doesn't defenders have off days, and a talented young player like Benteke have great days?

And if Benteke's 3rd goal is being mentioned, Skrtel had 2 players running at him with pace. Benteke with the ball towards him and another player on the outside(which never got mentioned). Joe Allen was running alongside Benteke, and had the chance to stop him, but Benteke was too powerful.

And no one blames our attack? Villa is defensively one of the poorest team in the league, and our attacking players did fuck all.

Against Stoke, for the first goal Skrtel slipped ffs, and the whole team were shit. Stoke dominated the entire field, and not just Skrtel.
And check WHam vs Utd game to see how Carlton Cole ran rings around the United defense. Thank god, our defense was much better.

[dr.dracco]

Agger is having an awful season defensive wise, he is directly responsible for twice as much goals than Skrtel.

He should be dropped without a doubt, but he seems to be undroppable for Rodgers. He was also worse than Martin at Old Trafford, but he dropped Skrtel the next game.

If Brendan want´s to be fair, then he should give Martin a chance to get back in the team.

[MassDriver]

The problem with Carra and Agger as a partnership is neither of them likes to challenge aggressively for the ball and win it early. They both are more comfortable in covering or sweeping space rather than marking an opposition center forward. Its just they way they play, you cannot blame them for it.

Agger was never the best man marker or an aerial beast, we all know that. His strengths lie elsewhere like interceptions, reading the game and adding to the attacking approach play of the team. Its just that he is being paired with Carra now who likes to operate the same way, that is 'react' to situations rather than aggressively deal with the threat like Skrtel does.

Therefore I still think they are better off playing alongside each other as a partnership. Yes they have made mistakes but that's due to the huge changes in our footballing approach and redefining of roles all over the pitch. With time they will obviously get better.

However Carra has acquitted himself very well in the last 3 games or so and it would be unfair to drop him. But Agger needs to sit out a game or two, just to get hold of his bearings. Maybe we should try a few games with Carra and skrtel and see how that works out. It can't get all that worse at the moment, we are pretty porous irrespective of whoever is playing.

Still think our midfield has been a major reason for our vulnerable defence. Lucas is still not the monster who could dominate games with his precise passing and immaculate defensive presence and its gonna take till next season for him to return to a level close to his form prior to his injury. And Henderson for all his pressure and running around is still not a ball winner by any stretch of the imagination.

The presence of a genuine ball winner like Mascherano would help us control games better and provide a much needed shield in front of our harangued CBs. Someone who could just win the ball all over the pitch and be competent enough in passing ability. Someone like a pre injury Sissoko would have been ideal in this setup and our defence would not be so porous.

We could do with a no nonsense english style defender who is strong in the air and in the tackle in the summer and use him in rotation with Agger and Skrtel, depending on the opposition.

But at the end of the day if the defensive aspect of our midfield doesn't improve, we would keep shipping goals irrespective of the personnel. We are way too vulnerable to the counter attack. Mascherano in his pomp would run across and neutralize the imminent threat of counter with a meaty tackle and win the ball back to start our own attack again, thus applying relentless pressure like Rafa's teams at their best used to do.

We need that type of player in my opinion. We have more than sufficient number of neat and tidy allrounders in our squad already.

[MassDriver]

I am sorry if the above doesn't make much sense. I am seriously wasted.

[El Lobo]

Genuinely, and I have criticised him strongly in the past.....but genuinely, I don't see what we've got to lose now by sticking Coates in for the rest of the season. I really don't.

[John Zac]

Flip back a few pages in this thread, and you could see Agger was god and Skrtel was the culprit. Now Skrtel is out of the team and Agger has suddenly become shit. We just need someone to vent our frustrations on.

In most systems and post match threads, we have seen the split CB formation, where the defenders play wider than usual. And the defensive midfielder drops back and cover the zone.
In the first part of the season Joe Allen was the defensive mid and he doesn't possess the awareness to play that specified role. He did his best, won possession a lot, but positionally he didn't have the nous to play that role. No point blaming him as he is a CM. Thats why we were so open at the back and easily countered by many teams.

Now with the return of Lucas we have somebody who is almost perfect to the play that role, and I felt we have done quite well since his return. We have reduced the number of the quick counters, we were starting to keep clean sheets, and then the loss to ManU(unfair) and Oldham Skrtel gets dropped.
I don't even know whether we still have the split CB strategy, or Rodgers have completely abandoned it as it is now less obvious from watching the games, as with Carra we have kept a tight, narrow, compact shape and the defensive line have moved back 5 yards.
Tactically these changes are not helping our defense in anyway.

[soberphobia]

Genuinely, and I have criticised him strongly in the past.....but genuinely, I don't see what we've got to lose now by sticking Coates in for the rest of the season. I really don't.

All semblence of reason and structure perhaps? If he has been deemed not good enough then it is fitting to run the better players you have back into form? Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We have a weakness right now at Centre half anyone debating it just needs to watch the goals we have conceded this year to see the amount we have leaked through poor defending. Poor defending in general play poor defending from set pieces. There can be no excuses. We have just been poor.

It is difficult to address we won't be able to recruit a star centre half as they will want CL. There are few options. We are crying out for a dominant defender who can organise. It will be an interesting summer but i would be surprised if we didn't either move a player already in the squad to CB or recruit one. Rodgers would be derelict to allow the amount of soft goals to continue.