Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership

[Danny_]

Enrique aside and possibly Wisdom also, our defence has been piss poor this season.  I'm not going to single out any one of them - just say that until we sort this problem out, we have no chance of doing anything.  We aren't United.  We don't have the kind of strike force they have and they are just lucky that they don't have decent competition this year or they would have paid for their poor defense also.  I feel like crying - we just can't seem to get the result we deserve.   

[Johnnyboy1973]

Enrique aside

Laughable.

Substitute for Johnson as he has been our most consistent defender all season even if you dont rate him and he was shit tonight.

[steveeastend]

We've been having a go at every CB we have. In the past, we've been solid at the back. Now we leak goals. My conclusion is that our problems now are with the system we use. Obviously the players have done better before. People have scapegoated Coates, Skrtel and now it's Agger. There's no doubt they (and Carra) have made mistakes. Same goes for our fullbacks. What concerns me is not the odd mistake, it's the number of mistakes we see from our defenders. Not convinced throwing money at the problem with solve things. But until we get to buy, we need to improve with what we have.

It´s pretty easy to explain but people again will go for the wrong assumptions. It´s the youngsters like Wisdom letting in too many crosses and a couple of experiments, Downing, because of injuries which let to a couple of mistakes.

Skrtel and Agger weren´t bad at all IMO. They had to deal with Lucas not available at the beginning of the season, still did a pretty good job.

I think playing them, together with Lucas infront of them, Kelly and Johnson and we will be fine, no need to panic as the worst is behind us.

[Notayesman]

We've been having a go at every CB we have. In the past, we've been solid at the back. Now we leak goals. My conclusion is that our problems now are with the system we use. Obviously the players have done better before. People have scapegoated Coates, Skrtel and now it's Agger. There's no doubt they (and Carra) have made mistakes. Same goes for our fullbacks. What concerns me is not the odd mistake, it's the number of mistakes we see from our defenders. Not convinced throwing money at the problem with solve things. But until we get to buy, we need to improve with what we have.

This makes more sense than people hammering the individual. We're disorganised and vulnerable at the back and that has to be down  to the manager. Someone made a fair point in another thread that the reason we don't actually concede more goals is because of the amount of possession we have, which does make sense because that type of expansive game will naturally lead to a lack of structure as players seek space. However there's no such excuse from set pieces (why aren't the knowledgeable pundits questioning the virtues of a man-marking system?) and we need to learn how to recover shape when we do lose the ball.

Agger was fucking woeful tonight, no argument there but the problem must run deeper.

[Prof]

Didnt see the match but the first thing me dad said when i came in from work was Agger at fault for both goals.

We set up with a part zonal, part man marking approach, with three players defending the six yard line inside the goal posts.  The goal was scored from inside the six yard box by a ball that was in the zone between the front (Borini) and middle (Carra) men.  Both got drawn forward with Lukaku to leave a huge space.  It wasn't conceded purely because Agger 'lost his man'.

[Il Capitano]

Not good enough today, Danny, sad to say. Culpable for losing your man for both goals, and missing a few sitters in front of goal from corners. Need to improve.

[astrid]

I can't believe how people think Agger and Skrtel suddenly have become shit defenders.. They have looked shaky over the last couple of months, granted, but do people really think, they have lost it? Or never had it?

If you go a few months back in this thread, they were praised as one of the best parterships in the league, and now they need to be replaced?!

They have both proved, they are a great defenders, individually and as a partnership, so I'll go with the posters claiming, that there is something else wrong here. Whether it's a question of confidence or structure of the team, I have no idea, but they have the quality, so it's up to Rodgers to sort it out.

[6thSense]

Ideal opportunity to give Agger some bollocking in the press and put him on the bench for a few games (until Carra cracks).

Skrtel will now be full of confidence and eager to prove that it's not the philosophy/system/management but it's Coates Skrtel Agger who's shite.

[Zlen]

No excuses left for him.
His poor concentration showed both in attack and defence.
Is he capable of waking up from his slumber?

[Notayesman]

Ideal opportunity to give Agger some bollocking in the press and put him on the bench for a few games (until Carra cracks).

Skrtel will now be full of confidence and eager to prove that it's not the philosophy/system/management but it's Coates Skrtel Agger who's shite.

Not sure about that. As it stands, with Carra retiring, we'll be look to at least one if not both of Agger/Skrtel next season though I reckon we'll be looking at CB's as a matter of priority, I still wouldn't burn all my bridges if I were BR.

[steveeastend]

Didnt see the match but the first thing me dad said when i came in from work was Agger at fault for both goals. so thats-

 sent off on the opening day of the season,
 lost fletcher for his goal at sunderland,
 lost terry for his goal at the bridge,
lost jones at stoke for his goal,
Lost Girou for arsenals 1st
 lost van persie and dzeko far too easily last week and now tonight.

Over rated as fuck by liverpool fans?

That´s all just so wrong and shallow, don´t know how to start here. If the defending isn´t working as a unit, the CB will often look pretty stupid. It´s like trying to play pressing with only one player. I could explain all situtions you lined up here not being Aggers fault at all, some him being a part of it.

But overall, today, he looked bad because of the mistakes of others.

[007.lankyguy]

We set up with a part zonal, part man marking approach, with three players defending the six yard line inside the goal posts.  The goal was scored from inside the six yard box by a ball that was in the zone between the front (Borini) and middle (Carra) men.  Both got drawn forward with Lukaku to leave a huge space.  It wasn't conceded purely because Agger 'lost his man'.

Good analysis of it. Agger still had some fault for me but you're right in that there were other aspects of it that resulted in them scoring.

[Prof]

Good analysis of it. Agger still had some fault for me but you're right in that there were other aspects of it that resulted in them scoring.

The man he was marking had a ten yard run at the ball and Agger was blocked (fair game when playing against maan marking, we should do it more).  Unless he pulls the player's shirt (which I'd hate us doing), he'll never get to the ball first.

The way I see it is we didn't cover enough zones, we should go zonal with eight players as we have a very short team and covering space is the most effective defence.  We basically gave them the middle of the box.  That's amateur.

[Danny_]

Laughable.

Substitute for Johnson as he has been our most consistent defender all season even if you dont rate him and he was shit tonight.

How is it okay on here to knock Enrique but not Johnson.  Christ, some of you are fucking blind.  Yes, he's good going forwards but he is seriously suspect defensively.   Enrique on the other hand is solid as a rock defensively and while he is not as good going forwards, he's good enough.  I prefer the later.

[Chris Mullin]

I can't believe how people think Agger and Skrtel suddenly have become shit defenders.. They have looked shaky over the last couple of months, granted, but do people really think, they have lost it? Or never had it?

If you go a few months back in this thread, they were praised as one of the best parterships in the league, and now they need to be replaced?!

They have both proved, they are a great defenders, individually and as a partnership, so I'll go with the posters claiming, that there is something else wrong here. Whether it's a question of confidence or structure of the team, I have no idea, but they have the quality, so it's up to Rodgers to sort it out.

How is Rodgers messing up his marking on set pieces?  The guy has incredible concentration lapses almost every single game.

[The Infamous_LFC]

Agger was horrible. I don't know why he is getting left for dead on the corner AGAIN. Like how fast did the west brom player get away? He needs to get his shit together. Was poor in the attacking side as well should have at least scored 1 goal if not two.

[Johnnyboy1973]

How is it okay on here to knock Enrique but not Johnson.  Christ, some of you are fucking blind.  Yes, he's good going forwards but he is seriously suspect defensively.   Enrique on the other hand is solid as a rock defensively and while he is not as good going forwards, he's good enough.  I prefer the later.

Then you wont like Rodgers. All you have to do is look where Johnson plays to see what he wants from full backs.

As to Enrique, no one is knocking him just that you're fucking blind if you think he has been better than Johnson in anyway, defensively or attacking.

Enrique was so shit earlier in the season, he was dropped. He was so shit, that when he was brought back in he was brought back in at left mid.

But, yet he's been better than Glen?

You're talking bollocks mate.

[abhred]

You just knew that they were gonna score from a corner. It's been there since Rafa days. We let other teams get back in the game through set pieces. Such a fundamental thing, yet we've been shit at it for years.

[6thSense]

Not sure about that. As it stands, with Carra retiring, we'll be look to at least one if not both of Agger/Skrtel next season though I reckon we'll be looking at CB's as a matter of priority, I still wouldn't burn all my bridges if I were BR.

Sorry mate it was tongue in cheek comment. Skrtel-Agger were the top pairing around not so long ago. Their slump must have something to do with the change of our style of football. I also didn't like how Rodgers made a fool of Skrtel in the press after Oldham fiasco.

[belfast-connection]

Sorry mate it was tongue in cheek comment. Skrtel-Agger were the top pairing around not so long ago. Their slump must have something to do with the change of our style of football. I also didn't like how Rodgers made a fool of Skrtel in the press after Oldham fiasco.

well in terms of constructive criticism can someone who's a whizz with chalkboards and like offer suggestions to how to shore up the back

personally i was always happy with the balance of a 4-2-3-1 under Rafa - the players under Rafa could've improved and we could always have done with more pace in the wide areas but the compactness in defence and the difficulty breaking down left me very rarely feeling nervous

but can someone explain why we have these 'split centre-backs' and the like and why it seems to be causing so many problems against teams that have a go at us on the break - i don't remember this every being such a regular problem since before Ged

in terms of our mythical 'inability to deal with a big ropey forward' i can understand why having CB's stretched creates a problem for picking up on 2nd balls and therefore  it might expose a weakness that our CB's have against strength and height (which has always been there to be fair; Drogba, Carlton Cole, Andy Carroll, even Nile Ranger i recall causing Agger and Skrtel problems in the past) and I can understand why having a stretched defence creates space for attackers to run into and pass it around in

but at the end of the day what does it add in terms of our playing style - where is the positive with it in an english league game where one of the principal tactical ploys is a quick direct counter attack -

if the benefit is spliting centre-backs simply to bring the ball out from the back can that not be done better by a deep lying midfielder

why not let your deep lying midfielder bring a ball out, let your centre backs be centre backs behind him, let your full-backs advance to compensate for your narrow 3 in midfield and make that 3 a 2-1 for the most part  rather than a 1-2 to provide a solid central unit that's difficult to get at through the middle

[irish musicman]

You just knew that they were gonna score from a corner. It's been there since Rafa days. We let other teams get back in the game through set pieces. Such a fundamental thing, yet we've been shit at it for years.

In one simple word "Sami" we have never replaced him as regards heading ability, I had high hopes for Coates but BR seems not to like him.

[Danny_]

Then you wont like Rodgers. All you have to do is look where Johnson plays to see what he wants from full backs.

As to Enrique, no one is knocking him just that you're fucking blind if you think he has been better than Johnson in anyway, defensively or attacking.

Enrique was so shit earlier in the season, he was dropped. He was so shit, that when he was brought back in he was brought back in at left mid.

But, yet he's been better than Glen?

You're talking bollocks mate.

I'm not going to argue with you.  Just look at what non-blinkered fans of other clubs think of GJ.  This is a bit like when we used to be saying Michael Owen was the best striker in the league or up there with Henry.  We weren't able to see his limitations.  GJ is very talented but defensively, he's poor.  I'm tired of this shit now though.  Somehow, you've got me to knock one of our players.  What's the point? I'm not the manager.  I don't make the decisions.  If BR does really think that GJ is better than Enrique, then fine.  He did say that Enrique was one of the best LB's in the league only last week.  I don't remember him having many bad games - not good today but nobody was.  We'll agree to disagree.

[RivaGe]

Agger has been very poor. Goals scored on him in 3 games in a row.

[John Zac]

A few weeks back, before the Manchester game, weren't we the team which conceded least amount of goals from set pieces.

[Solomon Grundy]

I've heard people tryin to blame the system we're playing on Skrtel and Aggers loss of form but, that doesn't compute for me. It's not the system that's forcing them into individual errors. It's mentality and concentration. These two aren't rookie defenders, they've been around the block a fair few times, played in European championships, World cups and the Champions league. They should know by now how to defend from set pieces, where to be and what area to attack the ball if your zonal marking and knowing to stick with your man and be on the right side of him if your man marking. It's basic stuff and there is no excuse for it at all.

[Dagger/Molby]

The Way i se it: yes Agger was poor today - but if Skrtel has been on the pitch instead of carra the second goal wouldnt have been there. Skrtel are 250% better than carra to back up his cb-partner. Carra are not reliable to play togehter with cbs like Agger and Skrtel. If you look at the Way we defend our corners - we are worse to defend these than anybody - which is BRs problem. Under Kenny, Rafa ect we have been marking In zones - now it seems like we are marking man to man. Yes, Agger left his man on the corner - but after Agger left him he had like 2 or 3 meters to run with no LFCplayers to stop him. With kennys tactics this would not have benn happening.

Its very easy to pick on Agger and Skrtel - but maybe you should try to look past that and look at Br and his tactics. Agger and Skrtel has been a toppairing cbs and their form doesn't drop without a reason.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Agger has been very poor. Goals scored on him in 3 games in a row.

All over the season, opposition targeted Agger in set pieces, Mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal, West Brom & Stoke. He's been very poor & mentally weak, Skrtel can't cover himself in glory either. Good footballers, poor mentality on the pair of them I'm afraid.

[Suspect Package.]

A serious and unloaded question.

Who would you do to improve Skrtel and Agger?

I don't think the actual players are the biggest problem here e.g. I suspect if we bought two new world class CBs in the summer, we'd still concede a lot of the silly goals we do now. There seems something else deeper wrong, as it's symptomatic of our season.  I wish there was a simple quick fix solution that could just be fixed in the transfer market, but I feel there's something systematically wrong that needs fixing.

[keyo]

we have conceded 34 goals this season in 26 league games, averaging a goal every 68 miuntes.....compared to 40 (85 mins) in 2011/2, 34 (100 mins) in 2010/11 and 35 (98 mins) in 2009/10, after conceding 27 (126 mins) in 2008/9 when we finished second, so our goals conceded record has been in steady decline up to this season, and we have seen a significant dip this year, although by the end of the season the minutes per goal will possibly be not so low


average goals for the seasons mentioned (goals for/goals against) are as follows
2012/3 - 1.29
2011/2 - 1.175
2010/1 - 1.73
2009/10 - 1.74
2008/9 - 2.85
again, decline over time, although we are ahead of last season - and i have to say last season was a fairly freaky season in terms of goal output, but can't argue with facts...so style of play is not contributing too much to the increase in conceding of goals, we are not more attacking in a way that produces discernible improvements in our output

causes of the decline is obviously harder.....but personnel is the chief reason, in my book...we do not have as good a team, therefore we concede more goals relatively, score less, win less, etc.....not rocket science...and it is clear that it is the squad depletion that contributes mostly to this as there remains quality in the team, but we have to face facts, many of our players are not as good as we make out alot of the time....including agger and skrtel, who are good players yes, but world class?  not really, they have strengths and weaknesses, but are there better players and partnerships around?  matter of opinion, but i do not see anything in our results to suggest we have a world class defensive set up.....and that acknowledges that players who have defensive duties, the work of the team and the pressure the team puts on opposition is not as positive now as it was 5 years ago.....

answers: firstly we need to improve the output of the players we have, i.e. improve our systems, tactics, preparation to ensure the players we have improve and reduce the numbers of goals we concede
secondly, better players and a deeper squad....we need this more than anything and this will take time as we bring in the right players and improve the squad, inevitably moving some players along in the meantime

all basic and simple stuff, but then football is a simple game essentially.....what this thread shows is how we tend to overrate many of our players, and our team, and fail to acknowledge our weaknesses and shortcomings, even when absolutley apparent

[Junski17]

All over the season, opposition targeted Agger in set pieces, Mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal, West Brom & Stoke. He's been very poor & mentally weak, Skrtel can't cover himself in glory either. Good footballers, poor mentality on the pair of them I'm afraid.

This sums it up nicely! At least 1 new CB and I reckon it'll take us to another level!

Even better if its 2 new CBs preferably with a goalscoring threat!

[John Zac]

We have more chance of successfully defending set pieces, when Skrtel is in the box.

[Kansti]

Oh Sami, how we've missed you. On a side note, why was Agger raging when we conceded from the corner? He was at fault wasn't he?

[killer-heels]

Never really ever been convinced with these two as a pairing. Theyhavent everreally carried that air of authority that top centre backs have done and never really look or sound like leaders.

I think they are good as the 2nd defender partnering a really dominant leading centre back. I would keep both but buy someone else as first choice.

[gollne]

Oh Sami, how we've missed you. On a side note, why was Agger raging when we conceded from the corner? He was at fault wasn't he?

Depends, If we play zonal marking he didn't get much help.

[astrid]

How is Rodgers messing up his marking on set pieces?  The guy has incredible concentration lapses almost every single game.

Agger was screened effectively for the first goal, so maybe the setup isn't right at set pieces? He looked very poor on the second though.

If it is poor form, then he needs to be on the bench until it's sorted, but is it a coincidence, that both Agger and Skrtel turns shit over night? Something is not right here. Anyway, Rodgers has to adress it and make it work, with or without Skrtel and Agger.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

I've heard people tryin to blame the system we're playing on Skrtel and Aggers loss of form but, that doesn't compute for me. It's not the system that's forcing them into individual errors. It's mentality and concentration. These two aren't rookie defenders, they've been around the block a fair few times, played in European championships, World cups and the Champions league. They should know by now how to defend from set pieces, where to be and what area to attack the ball if your zonal marking and knowing to stick with your man and be on the right side of him if your man marking. It's basic stuff and there is no excuse for it at all.

Yes.

[Cocomin]

Agger missed a sitter of a chance from a Downing cross and then was directly to blame for the two goals i think
we dropped the wrong defender he's class coming out from the back but Martin in the better defender for me.
We really need to be buying two experienced centre halfs in the summer preferably ones that can head the ball in
their own box , Andy Carroll could do a job in there lets get him back and tell him to forget about being a striker 

[rowan_d]

Agger missed a sitter of a chance from a Downing cross and then was directly to blame for the two goals i think
we dropped the wrong defender he's class coming out from the back but Martin in the better defender for me.
We really need to be buying two experienced centre halfs in the summer preferably ones that can head the ball in
their own box , Andy Carroll could do a job in there lets get him back and tell him to forget about being a striker 

Agenda and all that shite

I love him, but he's costing us a goal a game with his frankly diablolical attempts to mark his player

[DanA]

Reckon we should chase Christopher Samba if QPR go down. He's a big lump of a lad and would be the perfect option to have against the bigger stronger Center Forwards. Essentially using him at the very least as a higher quality Kyrgiakos if not first choice.

[Cocomin]

It's really not knee jerk we need 2 new starting centre halfs we are soft as shit in there the amount of times we lose
goals because they switch off and dom't do the basics is frustrating as hell.
Danny would be brilliant in Spain but he's not suited to England he's too soft the tattoos are just masking the fact that
he's a girls blouse.