Topic: Diving, cheating, timewasting & theatrics in football

[Terry de Niro]

A famous example I recall is the Pochettino foul on Owen in the 2002 World Cup. Was there contact? A minimal amount, but yes. Was it a foul even if the contact was minimal? Probably, and therefore a penalty was the correct decision. By the modern definition Owen was 'entitled to go down'. But if we're being honest, even the biggest dyed-in-the-wool England fan knows he dived and he has even admitted as such more recently.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/michael-owen-admits-diving-against-12120216

Refereeing is a problem too as others have alluded to - this quote from the article sums it up:

And this is Collina, one of the most respected referees there has ever been. If he was refereeing games in that manner what chance do we have of the fuckwits in the PGMOL doing any better?

It's a two way street. Players are constantly trying to con referees by diving but referees often don't give legitimate fouls unless the player dives.

Don't ever let an Everton fan in on this. 

[Son of Spion]

Don't ever let an Everton fan in on this. 

Too late now. We know most of them lurk on here all the time. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I said something similar in the Jota thread but the very definition of what a dive is seems to have changed. It always used to be that if you could avoid falling over from contact but you went to ground anyway it was called a dive. None of this 'entitled to go down' stuff. Now for something to be called a dive there has to be literally zero contact and even then it's not always branded as such - you sometimes hear justifications given like 'he's gone to ground to avoid the challenge' or such like.

A famous example I recall is the Pochettino foul on Owen in the 2002 World Cup. Was there contact? A minimal amount, but yes. Was it a foul even if the contact was minimal? Probably, and therefore a penalty was the correct decision. By the modern definition Owen was 'entitled to go down'. But if we're being honest, even the biggest dyed-in-the-wool England fan knows he dived and he has even admitted as such more recently.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/michael-owen-admits-diving-against-12120216

Refereeing is a problem too as others have alluded to - this quote from the article sums it up:

And this is Collina, one of the most respected referees there has ever been. If he was refereeing games in that manner what chance do we have of the fuckwits in the PGMOL doing any better?

It's a two way street. Players are constantly trying to con referees by diving but referees often don't give legitimate fouls unless the player dives.

The worst divers at LFC have always been English - especially those in the England team.

This myth that it's 'all foreigners' is ridiculous. Even now, across the whole league, the worst divers are all English, but the English media never/rarely reports on our 'brave lads' being cheats on a regular basis.

[12C]

Something definitely needs to be done to crack down on what Arsenal do, when they fake an injury around 28 minutes so they can have a team talk

Let’s see if it happens today.

[reddebs]

Just ignore them and play on, the motherfuckers would soon get up. 

[rob1966]

Just ignore them and play on, the motherfuckers would soon get up. 

Is the right answer

[coolbyrne]

I'm not sure how to stop the cryarsing, but they need to stop allowing teams to use the delay as a reason to go to the sidelines for a team talk.

[Red Beret]

What to do about cryarsing players?

Stick two goals past them when they're busy rolling around on the floor and arguing with the ref.

[Redley]

Good from the official today. If you’ve got a player who won’t stop whining and crying and complaining at every single decision…then book Harvey Elliott.

[rob1966]

What to do about cryarsing players?

Stick two goals past them when they're busy rolling around on the floor and arguing with the ref.

[Nitramdorf]

Could only watch the last 15 mins or so. Fuck me, we were getting booked for literally touching their feet or at one point a hand. Shameless diving pricks.

[DangerScouse]

Penalise Arsenal and you'll do away with at least 25% of it from the game. The fucking state of them. Genuinely embarrassing.

[child-in-time]

Penalise Arsenal and you'll do away with at least 25% of it from the game. The fucking state of them. Genuinely embarrassing.

Pep's team does that too when things are not going their way. Rodri is even worse than Odegaard or Saka. Maybe Pep passed it onto Arteta as part of the playbook.

[slimbo]

Follow the Rugby League modus operandi. Allow the trainer to come on to assess without stopping play. If player requires treatment signal linesman, who informs ref. Player must leave the field of play regardless. Heavy penalties for trainers that flaunt the rules. Just keep playing.

[red_Mark1980]

Konate went down holding his head. Play on from John Brooks.

Still I'm sure he'd have stopped it if Saka hurt his little pinky

[KurtVerbose]

I've got a slightly different opinion about this.

I don't like the diving, time wasting and theatrics, but above all I don't like the cheating, however you define it. And one of the ways of cheating is fouling.

It's meant to be the beautiful game and watching a skilful player hacked down by some thuggish defender I find worse than someone trying on a dive because it ruins the spectacle and loads the game in favour of size and strength, not skill. I don't like shirt pulling, all of that.

The attitude of many used to be 'get up, it's a man's game'.

As for fairness. Salah is labelled often as a diver. I think unfairly. He now gets nothing from the ref's, which really shows you refereeing is more based on reputation than facts.

As for time wasting. They greatly lengthened injury time to reflect the real time lost and there has been a big increase in muscle injuries. I get the ref has to stop the match if there are injuries, but why can't they book more players for time wasting during free kicks, throw ins, goal kicks, etc?

[tubby]

Every player on the pitch cheats, it's an impossible job for a referee.  When 22 players are trying to con you for 90 minutes in a fast-paced game, that's a nightmare job.

And when I say cheating, I mean even little things like calling for throw-ins you know you got the last touch on, calling for handballs when you can see for sure it didn't touch the opponent's hand, sneakily holding a shirt, that sort of thing.  There isn't a player in the league who hasn't tried to con the ref this season.  It's just the nature of football these days.

But the referees don't help themselves with their inconsistency, confusing decisions, arrogance, etc.  I don't see how it ever gets better but a step in the right direction would be to remove the 'clear and obvious error' rubbish, and for retrospective punishment for obvious dives where there's no contact.  It's difficult to do anything about stuff like the Fernandes dive last night, because there was contact and there's not a lot that can be done regarding that sort of exaggeration.

[oojason]

Konate went down holding his head. Play on from John Brooks.

Still I'm sure he'd have stopped it if Saka hurt his little pinky

Aye, Konate went down holding his head (it looked an awkward coming together), the referee saw this, yet somehow then waved 'play on' (as Arsenal still had the ball?)...

Substandard and problematic refereeing, right there.

[KillieRed]

The worst divers at LFC have always been English - especially those in the England team.

This myth that it's 'all foreigners' is ridiculous. Even now, across the whole league, the worst divers are all English, but the English media never/rarely reports on our 'brave lads' being cheats on a regular basis.

True: Gordon, Grealish and Maddison are the worst. The stats back it up.

[Barneylfc∗]

Follow the Rugby League modus operandi. Allow the trainer to come on to assess without stopping play. If player requires treatment signal linesman, who informs ref. Player must leave the field of play regardless. Heavy penalties for trainers that flaunt the rules. Just keep playing.

Things like this piss me off.

Think about every day accidents that happen. You stub your toe, you bump into someone in a busy street, you bang your knee off a desk etc.

Imagine bumping into someone on the street and you fall to the floor kicking and screaming, rolling around as if you've been shot. You'd be laughed at.
If you stub your toe or knock your leg or something, how many times do you need medical treatment?

Why do these fuckers need a doctor, physio and 4 fuckers running on to the pitch when their hairband comes loose? It's embarrassing.

[afc tukrish]

Things like this piss me off.

Think about every day accidents that happen. You stub your toe, you bump into someone in a busy street, you bang your knee off a desk etc.

Imagine bumping into someone on the street and you fall to the floor kicking and screaming, rolling around as if you've been shot. You'd be laughed at.
If you stub your toe or knock your leg or something, how many times do you need medical treatment?

Why do these fuckers need a doctor, physio and 4 fuckers running on to the pitch when their hairband comes loose? It's embarrassing.

They can't strand the pain?

[Yorkykopite]

True: Gordon, Grealish and Maddison are the worst. The stats back it up.

You can add Saka too. It's a self-perpetuating circle too. They dive because the referees are kinder to Englishmen. Harry Kane was always far more successful diving for Tottenham (in the Premier League) than he ever was diving for England.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Things like this piss me off.

Think about every day accidents that happen. You stub your toe, you bump into someone in a busy street, you bang your knee off a desk etc.

Imagine bumping into someone on the street and you fall to the floor kicking and screaming, rolling around as if you've been shot. You'd be laughed at.
If you stub your toe or knock your leg or something, how many times do you need medical treatment?

Why do these fuckers need a doctor, physio and 4 fuckers running on to the pitch when their hairband comes loose? It's embarrassing.

But this isn't bumping into someone on the street. This is somone whose body is mostly muscle slamming into you at high speed while you're probably stretching your own body. You might be able to carry on, but you aren't going to immediately get up and start running around like you were before.

Because there's a vast gulf between being bumped into and being seriously injured and a good part of that is 'This really fucking hurts'. And players don't always know whether it's crossed the line within a two-second timeframe. It's why the other thread that was started up about this is so stupid. The players aren't robots who can sprint for 90 minutes and never get hurt or injured. Many of them end up using painkillers to get through matches, and attitudes like this are a big reason why.

[Barneylfc∗]

But this isn't bumping into someone on the street. This is somone whose body is mostly muscle slamming into you at high speed while you're probably stretching your own body. You might be able to carry on, but you aren't going to immediately get up and start running around like you were before.

Because there's a vast gulf between being bumped into and being seriously injured and a good part of that is 'This really fucking hurts'. And players don't always know whether it's crossed the line within a two-second timeframe. It's why the other thread that was started up about this is so stupid. The players aren't robots who can sprint for 90 minutes and never get hurt or injured. Many of them end up using painkillers to get through matches, and attitudes like this are a big reason why.

Slamming 
I'm not talking about those that a genuinely hurt. I'm talking about the c*nts that roll around the ground after their shirt is pulled or there's the slightest of contact from another player.
Participants in other sports are genuinely slammed into on a regular basis but don't behave like a footballer. They get up and get back to it.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Slamming 
I'm not talking about those that a genuinely hurt. I'm talking about the c*nts that roll around the ground after their shirt is pulled or there's the slightest of contact from another player.
Participants in other sports are genuinely slammed into on a regular basis but don't behave like a footballer. They get up and get back to it.

People are rolling around the floor because their shirt got pulled? That's a new one on me. And these participants in other sports, they wouldn't happen to be the sports where you wear substantial amounts of protective padding, would they?

[slaphead]

People are rolling around the floor because their shirt got pulled? That's a new one on me. And these participants in other sports, they wouldn't happen to be the sports where you wear substantial amounts of protective padding, would they?

Give GAA Football a watch 

[Black Bull Nova]

Things like this piss me off.

Think about every day accidents that happen. You stub your toe, you bump into someone in a busy street, you bang your knee off a desk etc.

Imagine bumping into someone on the street and you fall to the floor kicking and screaming, rolling around as if you've been shot. You'd be laughed at.
If you stub your toe or knock your leg or something, how many times do you need medical treatment?

Why do these fuckers need a doctor, physio and 4 fuckers running on to the pitch when their hairband comes loose? It's embarrassing.

Partly because they are playing to the ref, partly because they are soft shites and, let's face it, it does not happen in many other sports and it never used to happen until the late 60s early 70s (without being too xenophobic, it was essentially a latin thing which has now sunk deep into the game, yes, I know, we are just as bad these days, I'm talking about the 1960s, it was showing in English players by the early 70s as well)


'viveza criolla'.

'furbizia'

https://www.vice.com/en/article/4xznan/the-men-who-fall-to-earth-viveza-criolla-and-the-misunderstood-art-of-diving-in-soccer




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ukFUEI5qz8



In 2011, researchers studying signalling in animals examined diving in the context of communication theory, which suggests that deceptive behaviour should occur when the potential payoffs outweigh the potential costs (or punishments). Their aim was to discern when and where diving is likely to occur, with the aim of identifying ways to stop it.

[Barneylfc∗]

People are rolling around the floor because their shirt got pulled? That's a new one on me. And these participants in other sports, they wouldn't happen to be the sports where you wear substantial amounts of protective padding, would they?

Not that I'm aware of.
A protective helmet maybe, which is understandable, but no padding that I've ever noticed.

I don't believe you've watched football for years and have never seen a player fall to the ground after getting their shirt pulled.

[Redley]

Pretty good example last night from Bruno Fernandes (tm) of the sort of thing being talked about surely

[Black Bull Nova]

In 2011, researchers studying signalling in animals examined diving in the context of communication theory, which suggests that deceptive behaviour should occur when the potential payoffs outweigh the potential costs (or punishments). Their aim was to discern when and where diving is likely to occur, with the aim of identifying ways to stop it.

Type 1, certain goal, in box (Suarez, world cup, handball on line)
Defensive
Payoff for foul, chance to save what would be certain goal
Cost (sending off plus penalty)
Offensive
Payoff, compensation rather than reward, one extra player plus penalty
 
Type 2, likely goal, in box (Jota, Newcastle)
Defensive
Payoff for foul, chance to save what would be certain goal
Cost (booking or sending off plus penalty)
Offensive
Payoff, compensation rather than reward, possible one extra player plus penalty, reward greater the lower the chance of scoring
 
Type 3, greater than average chance of goal, outside box (player clean through, GK to beat, brought down from behind), foul outside the area
Defensive
Payoff, probability of no goal
Cost, Foul plus likely sending off
Offensive
Payoff, compensation rather than reward, foul and possible extra man balanced against likely goal
 
Type 4, little goal threat, in box (player facing away from goal at the edge of the area, tripped)
Or, Handball, ball moving away from goal but in area.
Defensive
Payoff, little
Cost, penalty
Offensive
Payoff for diving, likely goal rather than just possession
Cost, possible booking if acting worse than Steven Taylor






Anyway, my solution, change the rules in light of above


1. Referee has the right to award penalty goal (see 1, possibly 2 above), this is what happens in Rugby
2. Referee can award a foul in the area rather than a penalty (see 4)
3. Referee can award a penalty for a foul outside the area (see 3)


Change the payoffs and costs, changes the behaviour

[rob1966]

People are rolling around the floor because their shirt got pulled? That's a new one on me. And these participants in other sports, they wouldn't happen to be the sports where you wear substantial amounts of protective padding, would they?

No matter how much protection they wear, these crashes hurt, yet you never see a MotoGP rider rolling around the floor screaming after one of these, like a footballer who's had a little tap on the ankle, those who are genuinely hurt just lie there not moving, those who are just a bit battered get to their feet and walk to the side of the track



Go watch Rugby, you'll see two 15/16 stone blokes slam into each other and just get up, I've seen a Bradford Bulls player walk off with a slight grimace as the Physio says "yes, he's broken his hand", I've see a Wigan player carry on totally unaware he had two teeth embedded in his arm. Most footballers reactions are fucking pathetic, its play acting pure and simple. Its also makes it harder to see a genuine injury as most say "get up you fucking tart"

[slaphead]

The worst divers at LFC have always been English - especially those in the England team.

This myth that it's 'all foreigners' is ridiculous. Even now, across the whole league, the worst divers are all English, but the English media never/rarely reports on our 'brave lads' being cheats on a regular basis.

Absolutely. When I think of the biggest divers in the leage over the last few years Kane, Deli Ali, Vardy, Grealish, Maddison have been some of the very worst. At the moment Fernandes is the worst but Gordon is giving him a run for his money

[Black Bull Nova]

No matter how much protection they wear, these crashes hurt, yet you never see a MotoGP rider rolling around the floor screaming after one of these, like a footballer who's had a little tap on the ankle, those who are genuinely hurt just lie there not moving, those who are just a bit battered get to their feet and walk to the side of the track



Go watch Rugby, you'll see two 15/16 stone blokes slam into each other and just get up, I've seen a Bradford Bulls player walk off with a slight grimace as the Physio says "yes, he's broken his hand", I've see a Wigan player carry on totally unaware he had two teeth embedded in his arm. Most footballers reactions are fucking pathetic, its play acting pure and simple. Its also makes it harder to see a genuine injury as most say "get up you fucking tart"

Modern Footballers are overpaid soft shites, I think that's obvious (except for a few old school exceptions, mainly from Yorkshire, Milner say)


If Rugby players did what footballers did they would be laughed out of the game. What I love is when footballers clutch a different part of the leg from where the contact was made, Fernando did it last night

[Barneylfc∗]

If Rugby players did what footballers did they would be laughed out of the game. What I love is when footballers clutch a different part of the leg from where the contact was made, Fernando did it last night

Or when the go down clutching their face when replays show no contact at all.

No idea why automatic bans aren't dished out for this. It's outright cheating.

[KillieRed]

You can add Saka too. It's a self-perpetuating circle too. They dive because the referees are kinder to Englishmen. Harry Kane was always far more successful diving for Tottenham (in the Premier League) than he ever was diving for England.

Yep, and Zaha, when he was still in the league. Most of these guys were getting around 100 fouls a year, with a high percentage of them dubious.

[red1977]

I think there has to be a game review panel (if there isn’t already?). That looks at ref and VAR performance against set criteria and feedback to refs on where they went wrong and what they did well. Secondly they should review cheating, use the slow Mo against set criteria. If a player dived but the ref gave a foul in the game it’s a mark against their name. 3 strikes of cheating and your out for 3 games. Time wasting, etc count. Like Tubby says above refs have to deal with all players looking to con them, if they know they can be pulled up on it after the game and face a ban it might help stop it.

[Black Bull Nova]

I think there has to be a game review panel (if there isn’t already?). That looks at ref and VAR performance against set criteria and feedback to refs on where they went wrong and what they did well. Secondly they should review cheating, use the slow Mo against set criteria. If a player dived but the ref gave a foul in the game it’s a mark against their name. 3 strikes of cheating and your out for 3 games. Time wasting, etc count. Like Tubby says above refs have to deal with all players looking to con them, if they know they can be pulled up on it after the game and face a ban it might help stop it.

Yes, the cheater wins if they con the ref, even if everybody sees it later

[Samie]

They are winning they will try anythig now to disrupt our play. 

[Red Beret]

No matter how much protection they wear, these crashes hurt, yet you never see a MotoGP rider rolling around the floor screaming after one of these, like a footballer who's had a little tap on the ankle, those who are genuinely hurt just lie there not moving, those who are just a bit battered get to their feet and walk to the side of the track



Go watch Rugby, you'll see two 15/16 stone blokes slam into each other and just get up, I've seen a Bradford Bulls player walk off with a slight grimace as the Physio says "yes, he's broken his hand", I've see a Wigan player carry on totally unaware he had two teeth embedded in his arm. Most footballers reactions are fucking pathetic, its play acting pure and simple. Its also makes it harder to see a genuine injury as most say "get up you fucking tart"

This is actually the thing for me. We've all seen football players go down with genuinely serious injuries - plus the few who have outright collapsed with a sudden medical emergency. The feeling in the ground immediately changes to one of apprehension or even alarm.

I'd say at least 75% of the tumbles in the modern game are a load of faking bs. Of the remainder, it's a player who has been stunned, winded, taken a nasty shock and needs a few minutes to get over it and run it off. Only a relatively small percentage are genuinely serious, or could lead to something serious if not dealt with, like a head injury or a muscle strain that can become a tear or ligament damage if they carry on.

When a footballer retires they should go into stunt acting. The way they tumble and can disperse their energy without injuring themselves is remarkable.

[Irishred1]

Andreas pereira was a disgrace Wednesday night the little fanny.