Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[Valery_Karpin]

I don't believe I've ever defended any player with the "but X manager likes him" - I agree, it's a bit of a cop out. I appreciate Lucas on what I see during games. He's a very good player. He's good enough for Liverpool. I wouldn't be splashing £10m on a new defensive midfielder.

Neither would I, 'cause a £10m defensive midfielder is no better than Lucas. I would, however, spend £20m on a new defensive midfielder, or £15m on a younger one that has the potential to be a £25m player.

I don't hate Lucas, he's done nothing to make anybody hate him, but I do watch him as a player and I see nothing of standout quality in his game. He is a good 'filler', he could come in and do a squad job filling in for other players when momentum is built, like he did in 08/09, but relying on him as a starter, as a key player, is unfair on him, if we have ambitions to be in the top 4 again, anyway.

[smig]

Highly praised is wrong.  Appreciated for his attributes and style of play is more accurate.

No-one has said Lucas is the best player ever.  What I think most supporters of Lucas are saying is that he is good enough for LFC, he is constantly improving, he has great passing and tackling stats NOW (some posters are stuck focusing on what Lucas used to be like), and he has an attitude we should be very proud of.  He plays for the team, does the job he is tasked with by the manager and obviously loves our club.  With a couple of other pass and move players in our team, Lucas will become even better.

Whats not to like?

The fact that his passing range is very limited and his tackling is not of a standard required to be a top quality defensive midfielder. He still concedes too many silly fouls in and around the box, even though he's cut down the quantity of these fouls. If all we ask from our central midfielders is to simply pass to the nearest red shirt and just stand there then we deserve to be exactly where we are. I'm not suggesting the lad should be bursting into the box and hammering in two goals a game, but I expect more from him in an attacking sense such as quicker distribution of the ball, even if he's in a defensive midfield role. This is where we have missed Alonso badly over the past two seasons. When he's been allowed to roam forward more often his input into our attacking play has still been relatively ineffective.

I fully agree when you say the lad has a good attitude and a good workrate. Those two aspects of his game I can't fault.

We need better quality in the middle badly and it needs to be addressed in the summer. Lucas has developed his game in the past 18 months, and I'll agree with anyone who says that. However, if we ever want to be challenging for the top honours again, players like him (if picked on a regular basis) will never take us back to that level.

[redmark]

Neither would I, 'cause a £10m defensive midfielder is no better than Lucas. I would, however, spend £20m on a new defensive midfielder, or £15m on a younger one that has the potential to be a £25m player.

I don't hate Lucas, he's done nothing to make anybody hate him, but I do watch him as a player and I see nothing of standout quality in his game. He is a good 'filler', he could come in and do a squad job filling in for other players when momentum is built, like he did in 08/09, but relying on him as a starter, as a key player, is unfair on him, if we have ambitions to be in the top 4 again, anyway.

He's 23 years old (still young for a CM at a 'top 4/6 class' side) and improved year on year. What do you expect to see that he's not shown?

[smig]

Neither would I, 'cause a £10m defensive midfielder is no better than Lucas. I would, however, spend £20m on a new defensive midfielder, or £15m on a younger one that has the potential to be a £25m player.

I don't hate Lucas, he's done nothing to make anybody hate him, but I do watch him as a player and I see nothing of standout quality in his game. He is a good 'filler', he could come in and do a squad job filling in for other players when momentum is built, like he did in 08/09, but relying on him as a starter, as a key player, is unfair on him, if we have ambitions to be in the top 4 again, anyway.

Spot on that.

[GrkStav]

So, to summarize, the recently arrived posters who are critical of Lucas argue that while he's been improving he doesn't offer enough to us in central midfield to warrant being anything more than a squad member. Furthermore, they've argued that if we aim to challenge for the title and regular CL qualification again, we must purchase the services of a world-class level midfielder who excels at those things that Lucas does not (controlling the midfield, being inspirational, leading the team, scoring a few goals, providing direct assists, etc).

To me, that's the sum total of the substantive contributions of the new arrivals. The rest has been de hominem and ad hominem.

[Mutton Geoff]

Maybe their opinion is more credible than ours, but they've hardly achieved spectacular results by putting so much faith in Lucas, have they?

People often argue (his supporters here) "he's not a world beater, we're not arguing that, but he's a good, solid player that deserves to be here". But they then bring up stories of appreciating world class players like Xavi. They bring up some of the best coaches in the world 'rating him' as justification of top quality. Benitez rated Dossena. Benitez rated Keane. Benitez rated Pennant and Kuyt over Dani Alves. Benitez rated many players and he got it wrong, so we should be able to deem if he made a mistake in persisting with Lucas, especially now that he's sacked due to poor results in a year where he played Lucas more than ever.

wrong Rafa did not have the money to buy Alves, as for Kuyt bought him way before pennent, Rafa rated Dossena correct and given his display in the WC not one journo queried this but as with many players they are good in one style of league but not so good in the prem! Rafa never rated Keane before he arrived and certainly not after!

Dunga, again, barely played Lucas, he persisted with an old, well past it Gilberto as his anchor man instead of Lucas. He picked Baptista over Diego, he never took Pato to the world cup, he barely played Alex and Dani Alves barely played under him but Elano was an untouchable. The man is not critic-free, same as Benitez, so using their 'rating him' as justification to dismiss our opinion is just daft.

As for Hodgson and Dalglish, they've hardly had a chance to pick anybody else, but the club apparently being in for Yann M'Vila tells me they don't see too much in Lucas.

Hodgson bought Poulsen to do his job did he do it? He also tried to get rid by leaking stories that we were selling him Insua style!

Kenny has seen him enough from the stands he knows what he gives to the team!

At the moment, I'd say our weakest position is midfield. Our midfield very rarely dominates games; our midfield is extremely limited in terms of creativity, control and end product; we, as a team, aren't creating much, nor are they playing with any kind of consistency. Maybe Lucas has shone in an under-performing midfield, but he has very rarely affected the outcome of games, he's very rarely turned things around in midfield for us, and he's very rarely affected the way we play as a team. To say 'he's a holding midfielder, he doesn't do that' is ridiculous, as they are all important to the outcome of performance and so on.

Really i would say back four and wide players and second striker myself but nevermind!

You again cannot get past your hatred of the guy to give a balanced viewpoint!

[smig]

ah well makes a change thought that was Stevie?

you dont like him fair enough, but please talk sense to prove your point!

Read my previous posts to see why I don't rate the player as highly as you.

[GrkStav]

He's 23 years old (still young for a CM at a 'top 4/6 class' side) and improved year on year. What do you expect to see that he's not shown?

Just for the sake of accuracy, he's now 24. Turned 24 on the day of the FA tie with Man. U.

[redmark]

The fact that his passing range is very limited and his tackling is not of a standard required to be a top quality defensive midfielder. He still concedes too many silly fouls in and around the box, even though he's cut down the quantity of these fouls. If all we ask from our central midfielders is to simply pass to the nearest red shirt and just stand there then we deserve to be exactly where we are. I'm not suggesting the lad should be bursting into the box and hammering in two goals a game, but I expect more from him in an attacking sense such as quicker distribution of the ball, even if he's in a defensive midfield role. This is where we have missed Alonso badly over the past two seasons. When he's been allowed to roam forward more often his input into our attacking play has still been relatively ineffective.

I fully agree when you say the lad has a good attitude and a good workrate. Those two aspects of his game I can't fault.

We need better quality in the middle badly and it needs to be addressed in the summer. Lucas has developed his game in the past 18 months, and I'll agree with anyone who says that. However, if we ever want to be challenging for the top honours again, players like him (if picked on a regular basis) will never take us back to that level.

"then just stand there" is grossly unfair. But I'll let Roy Evans, talking about Shankly, correct you in full.

I was fortunate enough to sit next to him when he came into the dressing room every morning. You didn't have a conversation with Shankly, he just made these great statements of fact like: "It's a great day today, son." And I'd go: "It's raining, boss." And he'd go: "It's a great day today, son." The game meant so much to him, he loved his football. Some managers have won more things, like Bob Paisley, but Shankly started the whole process. It sounds very corny to just say: "Pass to the nearest red shirt and move." But the players took to it and became better players because of it. Simplicity is genius, and we are where we are today because of him.

[redmark]

Just for the sake of accuracy, he's now 24. Turned 24 on the day of the FA tie with Man. U.

Sell him!

[smig]

"then just stand there" is grossly unfair. But I'll let Roy Evans, talking about Shankly, correct you in full.

I was fortunate enough to sit next to him when he came into the dressing room every morning. You didn't have a conversation with Shankly, he just made these great statements of fact like: "It's a great day today, son." And I'd go: "It's raining, boss." And he'd go: "It's a great day today, son." The game meant so much to him, he loved his football. Some managers have won more things, like Bob Paisley, but Shankly started the whole process. It sounds very corny to just say: "Pass to the nearest red shirt and move." But the players took to it and became better players because of it. Simplicity is genius, and we are where we are today because of him.

I knew someone would quote this. Yes, contrary to what so many on here would have you believe, I use my eyes and not my imagination when I say that Lucas passes the ball and very rarely runs into space. I saw plenty of ocassions yesterday when we were in possession and Lucas was simply walking, not moving towards the ball or giving his team mates an option. Anyone who doubts me, the game is replayed on LFCTV in an hour. See for yourself.

[Valery_Karpin]

So, if Kenny Dalglish continues to select Lucas regularly, regardless of personnel availability, will your opinion of Lucas change? Will your opinion of Dalglish and his team diminish if that happens?

If the team performs well enough to secure qualification of the EL and we do well enough to make it to the final 8 or better of this season's EL, and Lucas continues to be firmly in our starting XI (barring injuries, disciplinary problems, and rotation), will your opinion of him change?

Every proper debate requires that the two sides put forth their counter-factuals, the type of evidence that would disprove their respective positions.

I would be happy if Lucas began to seriously effect the outcome of games, or the performance of the team. Expecting him to guide us 10 places up the table or through to the final stages of a major competition is too harsh, as things like that are a team effort, but expecting to see more from him in how he affects us, in my opinion, isn't too much to ask. When Masch was here, you could see how much energy he brought to us, how much tenacity he brought, how many second balls he would win, how many opposition players he would shut down, you could see the affect he had on us, he brought steel, he brought lucozade, he brought so much to our midfield. Now, Alonso was a different player altogether, but you could also see what he brought: he brought composure, influence, a dictator, vision (especially with his short passing), creativity, great positional strength and he had a fantastic partnership with Mascherano, where they played to their strengths and benefited each other. I just don't see that with Lucas, I see a player who works, but doesn't do it in a way that Mascherano did, I can see a player than can pass the ball, but to nowhere near the effect of Alonso, I can see a player who has a bit of everything, but nothing to a spectacular level, to the level that you would want from a first choice midfielder.

[new-red]

fucking hell, I just read those threads, especially the pages around the OT game, the Inter game and the Newcastle game and of course the Everton game (Fa Cup unforunate red card and some bad decisions against him - Pienaar). I'm actually happy we have got this far, it's weird how that was 2 years ago and people were quite happy for him to be a backup to the defensive midfielders, now though 2 years on and how he's improved (as a lot of his detractors have stated) he's not good enough......

yea. In those threads, Redmark, while not discounting his potential, posed the same questions as most other liverpool supporters which was, of course, "what does lucas do?"

Because lucas was playing very within himself, his presence in the side was seemingly absent but that is mostly because you have pay specific attention to lucas if you are going to appreciate his role in the team. This team is accustomed to having midfield players announce themselves as to what style they were. Gerrard is captain fantastic, alonso was pass master and team metronome, mascherano was a destroyer. Each had shining abilities and presented them on regular basis.

We are accustomed to Liverpool CMs to express themselves within the team framework whereas Lucas is a chameleon. He thinks in terms of the unit and sees himself as a cog in the larger machine. Of course his short passing style was obviously going to be a major switch from Alonso's comprehensive passing style, which really is unfathomable, that treated 40 yard passes to the wings as 10 yard backpasses and provided all the movement for the team with his ability.

When Aquilani and Maxi joined the team midway last year, movement was restored to the side and unsurprisingly Lucas' form and performances took a massive bump. He didn't do anything different in the second half of the season than he did in the first, it was all due to the fact that the improved movement provided him with quick passing options that allowed him to use his short passes far more effectively.

It's no surprise lucas has looked best in our best performances. When we have played up tempo and played the ball along the ground he has been able to be very influential by keeping possession for the side while being postive in his passing. Against Chelsea he showed just how far he has come in terms of defending which was practically nonexistent upon his arrival at LFC. He has fully embraced the english game in terms of determination and physicality. He doesn't get pushed off the ball anymore. He can put a challenge in against anyone and be confident that he can win it.

Lucas is Rafa's masterstroke. He saw an intelligent attacking footballer that could use his understanding of the game to learn the defensive side of the game. He created a true box-to-box midfielder that will be able to extend his influence over the entire pitch if he continues with his development. It is going to be a huge asset when he realizes his potential.

[redmark]

I knew someone would quote this. Yes, contrary to what so many on here would have you believe, I use my eyes and not my imagination when I say that Lucas passes the ball and very rarely runs into space. I saw plenty of ocassions yesterday when we were in possession and Lucas was simply walking, not moving towards the ball or giving his team mates an option. Anyone who doubts me, the game is replayed on LFCTV in an hour. See for yourself.

What you may be seeing is that Lucas often moves sideways or backwards after releasing the ball rather than forwards, to give an out ball and to keep play moving. He does not stand still.

[Chakan]

[redmark]

I would be happy if Lucas began to seriously effect the outcome of games, or the performance of the team. Expecting him to guide us 10 places up the table or through to the final stages of a major competition is too harsh, as things like that are a team effort, but expecting to see more from him in how he affects us, in my opinion, isn't too much to ask. When Masch was here, you could see how much energy he brought to us, how much tenacity he brought, how many second balls he would win, how many opposition players he would shut down, you could see the affect he had on us, he brought steel, he brought lucozade, he brought so much to our midfield. Now, Alonso was a different player altogether, but you could also see what he brought: he brought composure, influence, a dictator, vision (especially with his short passing), creativity, great positional strength and he had a fantastic partnership with Mascherano, where they played to their strengths and benefited each other. I just don't see that with Lucas, I see a player who works, but doesn't do it in a way that Mascherano did, I can see a player than can pass the ball, but to nowhere near the effect of Alonso, I can see a player who has a bit of everything, but nothing to a spectacular level, to the level that you would want from a first choice midfielder.

I'll tell you what, when we have a world class side playing glorious pass and move, and Lucas is the weakest link, I'll agree with you. At the moment, he's consistently our best player in midfield.

[scatman]

You've quoted a bunch of stuff and failed to make a point. Then you go on a tangent about how i am an england fan, i know nothing about midfield, and i'm not a liverpool fan. I'm actually glad you've made these points, as it highlights how ungrounded all your claims are. They are ill thought out, stereotypical and above all, false. I can only assume you've used this same thought technique on proving how great Lucas is, and if so then theres not much to your argument.

As for you 'throwing' lines about: Don't, your arguments are bad enough already.

To be fair, decrying all his performances as crap, having not seen a game where's excelled when people on the same page actually mentioned 5 at least shows either you don't watch games or you have selective viewing which your comments on the 'exciting' parts of the game show up.

I guess you couldn't believe those no mark passers in Spain won the World Cup with their boring, keep ball football, which if you were a Liverpool fan, would know that was how our club became famous and winners.

Your other posts show how you strive for the directness in our game yet we had that under Hodgson, direct to Torres, that didn't go too well hey?

Finally by watching that video of Lucas' efforts against Manchester United and decrying them as not helpful to his cause shows you don't understand the role of a midfielder at all. It's not my fault you can't understand that a midfield's role first and foremost is to keep the ball and to keep it circulating.

Of course if the majority of your posts were not in this thread and intent on downplaying Lucas as just crap, we wouldn't be here defending him and thinking you have this hatred towards him.

[Mutton Geoff]

Read my previous posts to see why I don't rate the player as highly as you.

i did which is why i asked try to prove your point so far it is regurgitated trash in my opinion from two years ago with no thought of improvements made that are obvious to any other fans with a balanced viewpoint, oh and did i say i rate him highly? Just hate agenda bunnies, with witchhunts!

[scatman]

yea. In those threads, Redmark, while not discounting his potential, posed the same questions as most other liverpool supporters which was, of course, "what does lucas do?"

Because lucas was playing very within himself, his presence in the side was seemingly absent but that is mostly because you have pay specific attention to lucas if you are going to appreciate his role in the team. This team is accustomed to having midfield players announce themselves as to what style they were. Gerrard is captain fantastic, alonso was pass master and team metronome, mascherano was a destroyer. Each had shining abilities and presented them on regular basis.

We are accustomed to Liverpool CMs to express themselves within the team framework whereas Lucas is a chameleon. He thinks in terms of the unit and sees himself as a cog in the larger machine. Of course his short passing style was obviously going to be a major switch from Alonso's comprehensive passing style, which really is unfathomable, that treated 40 yard passes to the wings as 10 yard backpasses and provided all the movement for the team with his ability.

When Aquilani and Maxi joined the team midway last year, movement was restored to the side and unsurprisingly Lucas' form and performances took a massive bump. He didn't do anything different in the second half of the season than he did in the first, it was all due to the fact that the improved movement provided him with quick passing options that allowed him to use his short passes far more effectively.

It's no surprise lucas has looked best in our best performances. When we have played up tempo and played the ball along the ground he has been able to be very influential by keeping possession for the side while being postive in his passing. Against Chelsea he showed just how far he has come in terms of defending which was practically nonexistent upon his arrival at LFC. He has fully embraced the english game in terms of determination and physicality. He doesn't get pushed off the ball anymore. He can put a challenge in against anyone and be confident that he can win it.

Lucas is Rafa's masterstroke. He saw an intelligent attacking footballer that could use his understanding of the game to learn the defensive side of the game. He created a true box-to-box midfielder that will be able to extend his influence over the entire pitch if he continues with his development. It is going to be a huge asset when he realizes his potential.

I actually said as much back then:P the masterstroke of converting the lad to a defensive midfielder, to add steel to his game as well as positioning and patience. It's working, he can be an all-round midfielder, he definately needs to improve his shooting as well as calling for that ball in the final third. He makes the runs but they are never spotted! He can get better, at least he has the presence of mind to know his role and not go gallivanting all around the pitch as some here want him to, our defence would have absolutely no protection at all. It's bad enough that we have one central midfield wannabe who runs around out of position and leaves our team for dead but takes all the plaudits for the good things.

[redmark]

I actually said as much back then:P the masterstroke of converting the lad to a defensive midfielder, to add steel to his game as well as positioning and patience. It's working, he can be an all-round midfielder, he definately needs to improve his shooting as well as calling for that ball in the final third. He makes the runs but they are never spotted!

I think they are spotted more these days, and players are certainly more willing to pass to him. He's still not great in those areas - lacks a touch of composure when he gets there at times.

However, I don't think we need to have him be all things to all men. He's becoming a very, very good player at what he does.

[The 5th Benitle]

Valery Karpin. Please can you justify your statement that Benitez preferred Pennant over Alves.
Because from where I'm standing that statement alone could be indicative that you're insane.

[Mutton Geoff]

I would be happy if Lucas began to seriously effect the outcome of games, or the performance of the team. Expecting him to guide us 10 places up the table or through to the final stages of a major competition is too harsh, as things like that are a team effort, but expecting to see more from him in how he affects us, in my opinion, isn't too much to ask. When Masch was here, you could see how much energy he brought to us, how much tenacity he brought, how many second balls he would win, how many opposition players he would shut down, you could see the affect he had on us, he brought steel, he brought lucozade, he brought so much to our midfield. Now, Alonso was a different player altogether, but you could also see what he brought: he brought composure, influence, a dictator, vision (especially with his short passing), creativity, great positional strength and he had a fantastic partnership with Mascherano, where they played to their strengths and benefited each other. I just don't see that with Lucas, I see a player who works, but doesn't do it in a way that Mascherano did, I can see a player than can pass the ball, but to nowhere near the effect of Alonso, I can see a player who has a bit of everything, but nothing to a spectacular level, to the level that you would want from a first choice midfielder.

first he is 23 how old are masch and xabi, how good where they at his age? also Masch cannot get in the barca team and for all his energy his passing skills where minimal to say the least, and also Lucas is a totally different type of player, again less than two years before Xabi became this clubs heroic player many perhaps earlier versions like yourself wanted him out of the club because he was playing rubbish!

You are comparing a young man who has changed from his natural game into a totally vital position and is doing better each season at it, to a finished article now but certainly was not that at Lucas's age, and a totally different player, other than that good comparison though!

[Valery_Karpin]

I'll tell you what, when we have a world class side playing glorious pass and move, and Lucas is the weakest link, I'll agree with you. At the moment, he's consistently our best player in midfield.

Remember in 05/06 when we finished third with a huge points total? When we had Morientes, Cisse, Crouch and God, we'd done well that year, but we wanted to do better. We didn't have a spectacular passing side that played world class football, Peter Crouch was our best forward in that team, but it never stopped us from wanting better. Eventually, we went out and signed Torres and suddenly we were a completely different side.

Now, we, as supporters, have aspirations of where we want this team to be. We want to be back in the top 4, we want to be pushing for the league and we want to be competing in Europe again. Obviously not this season, but that is the vision, that is the aim. Lucas may well be our best midfielder at the moment, but wanting better than your best is not a crime. We have always done it, we will always want to do it, we have aspirations and we have very recent memories of top quality midfielders being here. Wanting to return to those levels is something I hope we're all longing for.

[redmark]

Remember in 05/06 when we finished third with a huge points total? When we had Morientes, Cisse, Crouch and God, we'd done well that year, but we wanted to do better. We didn't have a spectacular passing side that played world class football, Peter Crouch was our best forward in that team, but it never stopped us from wanting better. Eventually, we went out and signed Torres and suddenly we were a completely different side.

Now, we, as supporters, have aspirations of where we want this team to be. We want to be back in the top 4, we want to be pushing for the league and we want to be competing in Europe again. Obviously not this season, but that is the vision, that is the aim. Lucas may well be our best midfielder at the moment, but wanting better than your best is not a crime. We have always done it, we will always want to do it, we have aspirations and we have very recent memories of top quality midfielders being here. Wanting to return to those levels is something I hope we're all longing for.

It is. But some of us think Lucas will fit very well into a side playing at those levels; some don't. Ultimately it's only going to be answered by what happens in the next few years, not a debate on t'internet.

[R.A.La]

People often argue (his supporters here) "he's not a world beater, we're not arguing that, but he's a good, solid player that deserves to be here". But they then bring up stories of appreciating world class players like Xavi. They bring up some of the best coaches in the world 'rating him' as justification of top quality. Benitez rated Dossena. Benitez rated Keane. Benitez rated Pennant and Kuyt over Dani Alves. Benitez rated many players and he got it wrong, so we should be able to deem if he made a mistake in persisting with Lucas, especially now that he's sacked due to poor results in a year where he played Lucas more than ever.

What a steaming pile of horse shit.
Benitez had to make do with a sell to buy policy that restricted him to second and even third choice players, even then he managed to unearth some gems along the way. Lucas is one of them.

[Valery_Karpin]

Valery Karpin. Please can you justify your statement that Benitez preferred Pennant over Alves.
Because from where I'm standing that statement alone could be indicative that you're insane.

When we signed Pennant, we signed him because Sevilla upped the price on Alves, Rafa wanted Kuyt but couldn't afford Kuyt and Alves, so he had to find a cheaper alternative, that player was Pennant for £6m or so.

[Smashedin]

To be fair, decrying all his performances as crap, having not seen a game where's excelled when people on the same page actually mentioned 5 at least shows either you don't watch games or you have selective viewing which your comments on the 'exciting' parts of the game show up.

I guess you couldn't believe those no mark passers in Spain won the World Cup with their boring, keep ball football, which if you were a Liverpool fan, would know that was how our club became famous and winners.

Your other posts show how you strive for the directness in our game yet we had that under Hodgson, direct to Torres, that didn't go too well hey?

Finally by watching that video of Lucas' efforts against Manchester United and decrying them as not helpful to his cause shows you don't understand the role of a midfielder at all. It's not my fault you can't understand that a midfield's role first and foremost is to keep the ball and to keep it circulating.

Of course if the majority of your posts were not in this thread and intent on downplaying Lucas as just crap, we wouldn't be here defending him and thinking you have this hatred towards him.

Excellent, more fallacies to deal with; you make it too easy.

First, show the games he has dominated with this monolithic talent of his. I'm hoping i'm not going to be directed towards this seasons Chelsea game for the up-tenth time. It is conveniently forgotten that they were/still are in a slump, but take nothing away from the team.

I am unsure where i have 'strived' for directness. I cannot find even an implication of such. Yet another fallacy.

If you were to actually read what i was saying, instead of raving away, regardless of the response, you'd note that i don't take issue with passing football. In fact, I'd challenge you to find someone who prefers that type. My argument is that Lucas cannot play either type extremely well. He is merely average, and when we make a push for regaining our top 4 position, i'd wager that Lucas won't be a permanent fixture in that team.

[Valery_Karpin]

first he is 23 how old are masch and xabi, how good where they at his age? also Masch cannot get in the barca team and for all his energy his passing skills where minimal to say the least, and also Lucas is a totally different type of player, again less than two years before Xabi became this clubs heroic player many perhaps earlier versions like yourself wanted him out of the club because he was playing rubbish!

You are comparing a young man who has changed from his natural game into a totally vital position and is doing better each season at it, to a finished article now but certainly was not that at Lucas's age, and a totally different player, other than that good comparison though!

Mascherano was as good a defensive midfielder in the world at 23. Alonso had just earned a move to Liverpool after being one of La Liga's best midfield players. You're right, Masch hasn't got in the Barca team, largely because of the immovable form of Busquets, and largely because he's still learning the 'Barca way'. They want Javier carrying the ball more, being more expressive with his passing and they want his all-round game to develop, something that wasn't asked of him when he was here.

Again, I don't know what you mean by changed his natural game? Did you ever see Lucas in Brazil? He was a holding midfield player that broke forward into the box to score goals. Generally, Brazilians just ask for defensive discipline from their midfield players (you often see centre halves converted to holding midfielders), but Lucas, being one of the best players at Gremio, was afforded the freedom to break forward. Still, the only thing he's had to do is hone his freedom from breaking forward, instead transferring that to positional discipline.

Lucas is a solid player, a solid back up player who you could expect to come in and fill the job of your full time defensive midfield player. Any more than that and you're asking too much of him if you want to be in the CL or competing for trophies.

[Valery_Karpin]

What a steaming pile of horse shit.
Benitez had to make do with a sell to buy policy that restricted him to second and even third choice players, even then he managed to unearth some gems along the way. Lucas is one of them.

Yeah, he sold to buy, and he spent more money on his back up goalkeeper than his back up striker and back up right back. A lot of managers in Europe operate on sell-to-buy, it's nothing new, but only the best execute it to great effect, like Wenger.

[GrkStav]

So, Valery and others:

Are Man United a title-challenging, CL qualifying, top-four side?

Are Carrick, Fletcher, Gibson, Scholes [on edit:] and Anderson their main CM contingent?

Of those, who is consistently and reliably a better all-around CM than Lucas, in your opinion?

[Tomo!]

So, Valery, in addition to being a Lucas critic you're also a Rafa critic, then, right?

Are Man United a title-challenging, CL qualifying side?

Are Carrick, Fletcher, Gibson, Scholes their main CM contingent?

Of those, who is consistently and reliably a better all-around CM than Lucas, in your opinion?

Scholes

[scatman]

When we signed Pennant, we signed him because Sevilla upped the price on Alves, Rafa wanted Kuyt but couldn't afford Kuyt and Alves, so he had to find a cheaper alternative, that player was Pennant for £6m or so.

We didnt sign Alves because Parry thought he was too expensive for 9m or 12m or whatever it was, thankfully Parry was right as Barca only paid in excess of 25million a season later

Excellent, more fallacies to deal with; you make it too easy.

First, show the games he has dominated with this monolithic talent of his. I'm hoping i'm not going to be directed towards this seasons Chelsea game for the up-tenth time. It is conveniently forgotten that they were/still are in a slump, but take nothing away from the team.

I am unsure where i have 'strived' for directness. I cannot find even an implication of such. Yet another fallacy.

If you were to actually read what i was saying, instead of raving away, regardless of the response, you'd note that i don't take issue with passing football. In fact, I'd challenge you to find someone who prefers that type. My argument is that Lucas cannot play either type extremely well. He is merely average, and when we make a push for regaining our top 4 position, i'd wager that Lucas won't be a permanent fixture in that team.

Passing football, he has the best statistics in terms of keeping the ball for 2 seasons yet you think he can't pass. Great logic sir, indeed, nice to see you did not deny that the majority of your posts (way above half) as a member of RAWK so far have been to deride Lucas.

Newcastle, Man Utd home and away, Inter away, but I'm guessing you thought Alonso played in them...

[Chakan]

Scholes

How old is scholes , how many years has he had to "perfect" his playing?

[El Campeador]

He won the ball 7 times?! Get the man a world cup medal.

Oh don't worry lad, he'll get one soon enough.

[scatman]

Scholes

You obviously didnt read the question properly, read it again

consistently, reliably.

This is the same Scholes that Lucas always dominates in their contests right? No wonder Fergie c*nt has stopped playing him against us./

[The 5th Benitle]

Valery thanks for that confirmation that you are indeed insane. So the selling club up the price for Alves at the last minute when the player is already on a plane, Parry refuses to match it and so we end up with Pennant. And you reckon that scenario means Rafa rated Pennant over Alves.
Dangerously insane.

[El Campeador]

That is the most precise way to describe the divide between supporters.

I only started watching football four years ago but it just captivated my interest. In the first few months I started reading about tactics and that lead me to the book, inverting the pyramid, with which I learned the tactical history of the game and the systems and methods that still have great influence today.

I literally sought out an education in football because I wanted to be able to understand it as well as the top managers. If every LFC supporter simply read that book they would at least be exposed to different philosophies which would change their perspective hugely.

Every nation has their own footballing identity and methods so it is juvenile to only view football through an English lense. In fact, it is the very definition of ignorant.

I like your attitude

[redmark]

You obviously didnt read the question properly, read it again

consistently, reliably.

This is the same Scholes that Lucas always dominates in their contests right? No wonder Mr Alex Ferguson c*nt has stopped playing him against us./

Even if we grant Scholes (and at his best, he's still very very good), the point is it makes GrkStv's point for him: not Carrick, not Fletcher, not Gibson (and not Anderson). So Lucas could quite easily be part of a CL/title level midfield.

[Smashedin]

We didnt sign Alves because Parry thought he was too expensive for 9m or 12m or whatever it was, thankfully Parry was right as Barca only paid in excess of 25million a season later
Passing football, he has the best statistics in terms of keeping the ball for 2 seasons yet you think he can't pass. Great logic sir, indeed, nice to see you did not deny that the majority of your posts (way above half) as a member of RAWK so far have been to deride Lucas.

Newcastle, Man Utd home and away, Inter away, but I'm guessing you thought Alonso played in them...

We've had this discussion before.

First, this season and last have been shit, but thats ok, because it's nothing to do with Lucas.

Lucas' statistics are one thing, but his actual impact is another. His passes rarely come to anything.

Yeah i thought Alonso played all those time. Making stuff up is only weakening your anemic arguments further, so please stop embarrassing yourself.

Also, could you please direct me to the thread where i make have to make my compulsory daily 'happy' post to the RAWK deity; I wouldn't want to risk my online reputation at the risk of expressing my own opinion.

[Tomo!]

How old is scholes , how many years has he had to "perfect" his playing?

Yeah I know but the question was who's better now, not better in the future when ones retired.

You obviously didnt read the question properly, read it again

consistently, reliably.

This is the same Scholes that Lucas always dominates in their contests right? No wonder Mr Alex Ferguson c*nt has stopped playing him against us./

I read the questoin fine thank you.


Consistently, reliably.

To me that means games over the course of the season against all teams not just when we play them.

The question was who's the better all round midfielder and as much as I dislike the ginger twat Paul Copper Knob Scholes is at this moment still better than Lucas.