Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

why are people so precious about any negative comments about Stevie, but have no problem virtually crucifying our best midfield guy this season so far!

See...this is the sort of OTT nonsense spoken about Lucas that irritates me.

Nobody is "crucifying" Lucas. Nobody. But a lot of people are saying that they don't think he's as good as others are making out - and quite rightly in my opinion.

People need to realise that we've had the heart of our midfield stripped out (Mascherano and Alonso) in the last couple of seasons and have seen them replaced by Lucas and Meireles - good, but certainly not world-class players, like the aforementioned two.

We have slipped down the table - and it's conincided with the change in the centre of the park. It's not the reason, but it's one of the reasons for it.

Lucas is not the playmaker Alonso was, nowhere close. Nor is he the defensive rock that Mascherano was, again - nowhere close.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

even though I'm on your side it is very obvious why there is a double standard.

Stevie - local lad, club legend, dragged liverpool to honours.

Lucas - foreign, hasn't achieved anything with the club yet, hasn't scored any winning goals, is a continental midfielder so people don't get him.

Lucas has never and will never get the benefit of the doubt like stevie. He has to earn every commendation and nugget of praise thrown his way. For the most part, he has been very good this season and warrants accolades.

Stevie's decline is gonna be sour for many supporters. He doesn't know how to play any other way and when he starts leaving his physical peak, imo it has already started, hes gonna still try and play the same way and its not going to work. I think the best thing for stevie would be to learn the holding mid role because he already has the attributes for it and it would save him years in the first team. However, he would have to get used to the idea of being a possession-minded passer and not go for risky through balls.

Steven Gerrard has been one of the best players this club has ever had. He has been a major component in several trophy successes that we have had. He deserves a bit of slack.

Lucas has been utter garbage for most of his Liverpool career and has turned the corner in the last year or so. He still has light years to catch up with the captain.

THAT is why people are quick to defend Gerrard - because he has earned the right to be cut some slack.

Lucas can be compared to him once he's done half of what Stevie has for this club.


Fuck me....some people have a short fucking memory.

[koolkamal]

Steven Gerrard has been one of the best players this club has ever had. He has been a major component in several trophy successes that we have had. He deserves a bit of slack.

Lucas has been utter garbage for most of his Liverpool career and has turned the corner in the last year or so. He still has light years to catch up with the captain.

THAT is why people are quick to defend Gerrard - because he has earned the right to be cut some slack.

Lucas can be compared to him once he's done half of what Stevie has for this club.


Fuck me....some people have a short fucking memory.

Because some people can't understand football beyond the individual. When an individual does something impressive, this exalts him. When an individual wholly commits himself to the collective, they are not worthy of considering in the same breath as the star individual, let alone the same team. And when you want to maintain standards, this means the team man should be drummed out of the team, and replaced by someone more worthy as an individual. That thought process is something I'd noticed in the various Lucas threads.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Bull. Shit.

Lucas is not as good as Mascherano or Alonso. FACT.

Lucas has not achieved anywhere near as much as Gerrard. FACT.

Since he became a regular, along with other factors, we have slid down the table and out of the top four. FACT.

He isn't strong defensively. FACT.

He isn't strong going forward. FACT.

He is a tidy, efficient player that offers little of major impact. FACT.

[new-red]

Certainly xabi is a huge loss because he was the focal point of every attack but I believe that actually hurt Liverpool in some respects because against teams who park the bus there was no movement in the side because they relied on xabi to pick them out instead of showing to recieve a pass.

Xabi played mainly on the fringes of the attacking third which meant that there was no midfielder supporting the attack in the final third and we struggled to find openings.

IMO, Aquilani was exactly what our team needed. Someone to start attacks from deep but also join them in the final third.

Aquilani would have went on to be a better CM for LFC than Xabi because of his attacking ability. There were games last year where we played better attacking football than the heights of the 0809 season.

Mascherano, on the other hand is not necessary. He is a player that is invaluable for the toughest 8-10 fixtures of the season but against the bottom 12 sides we lose a lot in an attacking sense with masch in the team.

Lucas has already shown that he can do the job adequately even in the toughest fixtures like the chelsea game showed.

However, Lucas offers far more with his passing and offensive awareness. And when we can finally get a settled midfield of sg - raul - lucas he will show just much he has to offer in the holding role.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Lucas has already shown that he can do the job adequately even in the toughest fixtures like the chelsea game showed.

However, Lucas offers far more with his passing and offensive awareness. And when we can finally get a settled midfield of sg - raul - lucas he will show just much he has to offer in the holding role.

Do what job "adequately"..?

He is not a good enough replacement for either Alonso or Mascherano...so which role is he covering "adequately"?

I don't think he's our worst player and I think he's been one of, if not the, most consistent for us this season - but I still do not think he is good enough to be a first-choice midfielder for us long-term.

He doesn't score goals, he doesn't provide assists either - so far ONE single assist in the league this season. So, how much "offensive awareness" he actually has, I'll leave you to decipher.

Oh, and Aquilani was never going to be a success as a "deep" lying player. It's not his style of play.

[The Scouseologist]

The Lucas debate baffles me, I genuinely believe the power of the internet and forums and threads like this are what is convincing people Lucas is a quality player.

I all my years watching Liverpool, I have never seen a player who has played over 100 times for Liverpool who is as bad as Lucas Leiva.

He cannot pass, he gives away needless free kicks on a regular basis so therefore cannot tackle. He cannot head a ball, and cannot shoot. What attribute does this lad actually have?

I would never vent my frustration at a player at the game and whilst he wears red will always support him when I am watching him play, but fuck me people he is the worst regular in our clubs history.

He might go to Europe and be a star, so what, he will NEVER be good enough for us.

[koolkamal]

Ignorance is bliss.

[new-red]

Bull. Shit.

Lucas is not as good as Mascherano or Alonso. FACT.

Lucas has not achieved anywhere near as much as Gerrard. FACT.

Since he became a regular, along with other factors, we have slid down the table and out of the top four. FACT.

He isn't strong defensively. FACT.

He isn't strong going forward. FACT.

He is a tidy, efficient player that offers little of major impact. FACT.

A post that is devoid of all critical thought. He is actually a much better CM than Mascherano but not of Alonso's class, and how many midfielders are ffs.

Going by your post I'm gonna have to assume you don't actually know what the word fact means.

Our sliding out of the top four has a more to do with the overall shite play of side last year than lucas' performances.

There is a fairly simple reason for this too. Alonso provided all the movement for the side. No one had to show for passes because alonso found them wherever they were on the pitch. When he left the side was lost. There was no fluidity in the attack, there was no movement.

The side only found an attacking rhythm when Aquilani came into the side because he forced movement upon the team by passing it quickly and then showing for a return pass immediately. With the addition of maxi we had another player who was a pass and move type player. In the sceond half of the season our performances started to really pick up and the right side of the attack was unplayable at times with gerrard, aquilani, maxi, and glen johnson. Consequently, Lucas' performances kicked up another notch with the added movement and he was able to distribute the ball a lot more effectively.

This season, he has continued in the same vain. THe movement in the team is a lot better now and he is playing better because of it.

Lucas is actually pretty strong in defense and attack. You can choose to believe otherwise but he will continue to prove you wrong, not a difficult task mind you.

Lucas' impact in the side was very clearly displayed on wednesday. We had no control over the match and fulham dominated us for most of the game. That is because lucas wasn't there.

[JPedro]

I would never vent my frustration at a player at the game and whilst he wears red will always support him when I am watching him play.

I disagree with most of your post, but for the quoted part, you have my respect.

[mini4me]

Lucas may not have moon reaching passing of Alonso, drive of Gerrard or tackling of Mascherano, but he's got something very special. This player has the technique and brain to control a football match. Slows it down when it needs to and up the tempo. His closing down and ball winning is wonderful, his touch is perfect and passing keeps improving. His only weak point is his awareness. He needs to look around before keeping the ball.

[koolkamal]

A post that is devoid of all critical thought. He is actually a much better CM than Mascherano but not of Alonso's class, and how many midfielders are ffs.

Going by your post I'm gonna have to assume you don't actually know what the word fact means.

Our sliding out of the top four has a more to do with the overall shite play of side last year than lucas' performances.

There is a fairly simple reason for this too. Alonso provided all the movement for the side. No one had to show for passes because alonso found them wherever they were on the pitch. When he left the side was lost. There was no fluidity in the attack, there was no movement.

The side only found an attacking rhythm when Aquilani came into the side because he forced movement upon the team by passing it quickly and then showing for a return pass immediately. With the addition of maxi we had another player who was a pass and move type player. In the sceond half of the season our performances started to really pick up and the right side of the attack was unplayable at times with gerrard, aquilani, maxi, and glen johnson. Consequently, Lucas' performances kicked up another notch with the added movement and he was able to distribute the ball a lot more effectively.

This season, he has continued in the same vain. THe movement in the team is a lot better now and he is playing better because of it.

Lucas is actually pretty strong in defense and attack. You can choose to believe otherwise but he will continue to prove you wrong, not a difficult task mind you.

Lucas' impact in the side was very clearly displayed on wednesday. We had no control over the match and fulham dominated us for most of the game. That is because lucas wasn't there.

Explained it perfectly. Since people can't or refuse to see it, it's much simpler to say he doesn't offer anything.

[new-red]

The Lucas debate baffles me, I genuinely believe the power of the internet and forums and threads like this are what is convincing people Lucas is a quality player.

I all my years watching Liverpool, I have never seen a player who has played over 100 times for Liverpool who is as bad as Lucas Leiva.

He cannot pass, he gives away needless free kicks on a regular basis so therefore cannot tackle. He cannot head a ball, and cannot shoot. What attribute does this lad actually have?

I would never vent my frustration at a player at the game and whilst he wears red will always support him when I am watching him play, but fuck me people he is the worst regular in our clubs history.

He might go to Europe and be a star, so what, he will NEVER be good enough for us.

to be honest mate, your posts are not even worth responding to anymore. They just exude ignorance. You have a very narrow view of what a player should be and it clearly is not gonna change now so there is no point in trying to debate this issue with you.

I'm just going to continue to laugh in your direction over the coming years because Lucas will be a key part of our side and Brazil's side and you won't have a fucking clue why.

The Lucas debate baffles me, I genuinely believe the power of the internet and forums and threads like this are what is convincing people Lucas is a quality player.

I all my years watching Liverpool, I have never seen a player who has played over 100 times for Liverpool who is as bad as Lucas Leiva.

He cannot pass, he gives away needless free kicks on a regular basis so therefore cannot tackle. He cannot head a ball, and cannot shoot. What attribute does this lad actually have?

I would never vent my frustration at a player at the game and whilst he wears red will always support him when I am watching him play, but fuck me people he is the worst regular in our clubs history.

He might go to Europe and be a star, so what, he will NEVER be good enough for us.

Are you fucking serious with this post? It is wrong in every sense.

I feel like I just read a transcript of a caller on TIA or an Ian St. John monologue/rant.

Thank fuck you people aren't anywhere near the managing side of this team. Shankly was talking about people like you when he said that fans were having a hard time coming to grips with the continental style.

There is a reason there is no english manager in charge of a top four club.

[liverpooll]

Lucas may not have moon reaching passing of Alonso, drive of Gerrard or tackling of Mascherano, but he's got something very special. This player has the technique and brain to control a football match. Slows it down when it needs to and up the tempo. His closing down and ball winning is wonderful, his touch is perfect and passing keeps improving. His only weak point is his awareness. He needs to look around before keeping the ball.

Look, do not start mixing reliability with being special.

He is a efficient player, nothing more or at least has not shown anything more. We can expect 150% from him, just like every other Liverpool player. We can also expect him to make some tackles and lose some just like the rest of the players. He does not have a range of passes and will never be a "productive" player. A lot of his game depends on the rest of the team.

The point is he is not the problem, he is a good player, good enough to be in the team. But if there is another player available at a good player, we can look to offload him. Not a urgent situation to look but definitely Lucas is replaceable just like many players at Liverpool. He is basically not a clear cut star in the "making"

[The Scouseologist]

to be honest mate, your posts are not even worth responding to anymore. They just exude ignorance. You have a very narrow view of what a player should be and it clearly is not gonna change now so there is no point in trying to debate this issue with you.

I'm just going to continue to laugh in your direction over the coming years because Lucas will be a key part of our side and Brazil's side and you won't have a fucking clue why.

Are you fucking serious with this post? It is wrong in every sense.

I feel like I just read a transcript of a caller on TIA or an Ian St. John monologue/rant.

Thank fuck you people aren't anywhere near the managing side of this team. Shankly was talking about people like you when he said that fans were having a hard time coming to grips with the continental style.

There is a reason there is no english manager in charge of a top four club.

My opinion, and like you said it won't change. Oh and I could not give a flying fuck what he does for Brazil. Its the lack of what he does for Liverpool FC that bothers me.

If your content fighting for UEFA cup every season, all hail Lucas. We are in the position we are in because of the lack of quality players within our squad. He falls into the poor quality bracket we have within our side, were battling above mid table because Kenny is working in the majority with mid table players.

[Corkboy]

A lot of his game depends on the rest of the team.

There is very little you can say in response to a statement like that.

[Cid]

why are people so precious about any negative comments about Stevie, but have no problem virtually crucifying our best midfield guy this season so far!

Gerrard is one of the finest players to ever wear our shirt, has won us a ton of stuff and has allowed us to punch above our weight most of his career.

Lucas is a promising young player whose time in the team has been accompanied by some record breaking failures, who still struggles with distribution, has accomplished absolutely nothing with us and gets far too much praise for doing a decent (never spectacular) job in the middle.

Lucas would get a fairer crack of the whip if he didn't have kuyt'ish super fans defending his honour every time he goes missing.  Overcompensation gets people's heckles up and causes them to overstate his weaknesses in kind.

Lucas is a decent cm/cdm.  If you don't like people crucifying him stop acting as though he's the second coming.

[Cadno]

The Lucas debate baffles me, I genuinely believe the power of the internet and forums and threads like this are what is convincing people Lucas is a quality player.

I all my years watching Liverpool, I have never seen a player who has played over 100 times for Liverpool who is as bad as Lucas Leiva.

He cannot pass, he gives away needless free kicks on a regular basis so therefore cannot tackle. He cannot head a ball, and cannot shoot. What attribute does this lad actually have?

I would never vent my frustration at a player at the game and whilst he wears red will always support him when I am watching him play, but fuck me people he is the worst regular in our clubs history.

He might go to Europe and be a star, so what, he will NEVER be good enough for us.

See I would say the complete oppposite,  its the power of the intrernet, forums and sky like reporting and teh want it now generation that has convinced people that Lucas is not a good player.   

He cannot pass, he gives away needless free kicks on a regular basis so therefore cannot tackle. He cannot head a ball, and cannot shoot. What attribute does this lad actually have?

That type of quote is repeated almost word for word in every Lucas thread, conversation and 'expert' analysis in the media and most of it is easily dismissed in about 10 minutes worth of research.
 
He has the most successfull passes out of anybody in our team. (Of course these are all sideways and backwards  YAWN!)

He is not even in the top 10 in the league for fouls conceded, in fact Torres has more fouls than him

He has the 4th most amount of successfull tackles in the league so again where does this myth originate?

You claimed that he cannot head the ball, sorry but in all your years of watching Liverpool you must have missed most of the games Lucas has played because thats just not true by any stretch, unless you mean heading from set pieces for goal for which you may have a point

Shooting I will give you but in the role he has played for us mostly recently he does not really get the opportunity (probably luckily)

[liverpooll]

There is very little you can say in response to a statement like that.

?? He is not "productive" player as he does not have the passes or ability to be one. He is definitely not the player you expect to do something out of nothing.

[new-red]

Look, do not start mixing reliability with being special.

He is a efficient player, nothing more or at least has not shown anything more. We can expect 150% from him, just like every other Liverpool player. We can also expect him to make some tackles and lose some just like the rest of the players. He does not have a range of passes and will never be a "productive" player. A lot of his game depends on the rest of the team.

The point is he is not the problem, he is a good player, good enough to be in the team. But if there is another player available at a good player, we can look to offload him. Not a urgent situation to look but definitely Lucas is replaceable just like many players at Liverpool. He is basically not a clear cut star in the "making"

See, Lucas is special. He is probably the smartest footballer in the team. In his role he focused on keeping possession and keeping the play moving. It would be highly irresponsible for him to go for risky through balls often because more often than not, as painfully exhibited against fulham, they lose possession. His job is to provide an outlet for the attacking players so that if they can't find a way forward then they pass to him and he moves it to the other side.

His work in covering for midfielders is exemplary. His tackling is vastly improved and when he pursues an attacker, more often than not now he wins the ball. He won 4-5 crucial tackles in and around the box against wolves to remove danger but fans probably don't think he deserves praise for that since he's just performing his role like hes supposed to.

It very sad to realize that a large portion of our supporters don't understand football beyond the rules and 442.

[JackWard33]

Bull. Shit.

Lucas is not as good as Mascherano or Alonso. FACT.

Lucas has not achieved anywhere near as much as Gerrard. FACT.

Since he became a regular, along with other factors, we have slid down the table and out of the top four. FACT.

He isn't strong defensively. FACT.

He isn't strong going forward. FACT.

He is a tidy, efficient player that offers little of major impact. FACT.

Congrats- one of the worst posts I've ever read on here

[BIGdavalad]

Steven Gerrard has been one of the best players this club has ever had. He has been a major component in several trophy successes that we have had. He deserves a bit of slack.

Personally I don't give a shit what he's done in the past. The only thing that's important is how they perform on the pitch right now. Gerrard hasn't been good enough for much of the last 18 months and hasn't even looked interested for much of that time. For much of the same period Lucas had been more consistent (although not able to hit the same heights that Gerrard is capable of) and has looked like he gives a shite at the same time.

Gerrard hasn't earned the right to anything except respect for his past achievements. If a player stops performing well enough to be playing for Liverpool then it's time for them to go. If a player stops looking interested on the pitch then he can go too. We've lost players just as good and influential as Gerrard in the past and for the most part they've been replaced and the world has continued to turn.

It's only in the last few years, starting with Fowler and moving through Owen to Carrgher and Gerrard, that we've started believing that players are bigger than the club or irreplaceable. No player is bigger than the club. I don't believe it's a coincidence that our worst trophy winning period in modern history coincides with that change in attitude.

Gerrard is a fantastic player on his day and has won a lot for the club. If he can still make sure he hits those heights when he's picked, or at least if he doesn't he could look like he gives a shite about it, then that's all well and good. If he can't then it's time to consider whether we'd be better off giving Dalglish (or his replacement if he's not going to be taken on full time) £20 to £30 million pounds and £120k a week in wages to play with than an ageing club great.


Lucas (as the thread is about him) will probably never hit the heights that Gerrard has hit with Liverpool during his career but so long as he's putting 100% in every week and so long as his actions on the pitch benefit the team then he's earned his place on the field more than a Gerrard who isn't giving 100% or not benefiting the team as a whole.

(this isn't an attack on Gerrard by the way, just a simple statement of fact as I see it - the sooner the club goes back to being bigger than any player and every player has to earn his position in the team through hard work and performances and not past glories or post code the better as far as I'm concerned. The same would go for Torres, Reina, Johnson and all our other 'stars' too).

[drpepe]

See, Lucas is special. He is probably the smartest footballer in the team.

 

[Discipline]

"Lucas was crap since he came"

High expectations. He was being compared to Masche AND Xabi, and they were easily top 5 (maybe 3) positions when they were at the club. Still are. Give the kid a break. He was in his early 20's aswell. F***** watch the game. If you don't like to contribute, then go watch someone else. He's easily been in the top 3 players for us all season. Probably second after Pepe.

[new-red]

?? He is not "productive" player as he does not have the passes or ability to be one. He is definitely not the player you expect to do something out of nothing.

Another example of the simple-mindedness of lucas detractors.

If it doesn't make a match of the day highlight it might as well be insignificant.

I'm done debating this topic, (what a lie, i can't stay away).

Intelligent supporters understand his contribution. Harsh truth, but the truth nonetheless.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

A post that is devoid of all critical thought. He is actually a much better CM than Mascherano

I stopped reading there, given how ridiculous a statement that is.

[scared_person]

out of curiosity, which other centre mids 24 or below would you rate higher than lucas for his age, that has played at the highest level?

Could those who don't rate Lucas i.e. Scousologist, Cid etc etc please answer this above question?

I think CM is a very difficult position for a young player to come into, especially as a defensive minded CM. If a young winger comes off the bench you can be instantly impressed by him beating a man and putting a good ball in. A striker scores goals, even a full back (like young Kelly) can impress by being solid and keeping it simple. A CM I feel has to be watched for much longer before you can make a judgment. Lucas role in the side is to win the ball back in midfield and cover for other other players who've gone forward when we don't have the ball, and offer for the ball and distribute quickly and efficiently when we have the ball. As far as I can see he does both parts more than adequately. To add to the above question, what more would he have to do to prove you doubters wrong?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

See, Lucas is special. He is probably the smartest footballer in the team.

There is so little basis for such a ridiculous statement.

It's this kind of nonsense that is keeping this debate going and going.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

The Lucas debate baffles me, I genuinely believe the power of the internet and forums and threads like this are what is convincing people Lucas is a quality player.

I all my years watching Liverpool, I have never seen a player who has played over 100 times for Liverpool who is as bad as Lucas Leiva.

He cannot pass, he gives away needless free kicks on a regular basis so therefore cannot tackle. He cannot head a ball, and cannot shoot. What attribute does this lad actually have?

I would never vent my frustration at a player at the game and whilst he wears red will always support him when I am watching him play, but fuck me people he is the worst regular in our clubs history.

He might go to Europe and be a star, so what, he will NEVER be good enough for us.

I agree, to a point.

I wouldn't be such a harsh critic, but I totally agree with the sentiment that people are going way overboard in their praise of the lad and also that he is not up to the required standard.

[liverpooll]

Another example of the simple-mindedness of lucas detractors.

If it doesn't make a match of the day highlight it might as well be insignificant.

I'm done debating this topic, (what a lie, i can't stay away).

Intelligent supporters understand his contribution. Harsh truth, but the truth nonetheless.

Well, if you start defending Lucas by giving some solid reasons instead of you fans are not capable of understanding football crap, you could do some wonders.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Congrats- one of the worst posts I've ever read on here

You've clearly not read many posts then

[Corkboy]

?? He is not "productive" player as he does not have the passes or ability to be one. He is definitely not the player you expect to do something out of nothing.

Please read my post. The bit of your post I quoted was when you said...

A lot of his game depends on the rest of the team.

At the risk of pointing out the absurdly obvious, it's a fucking team game.

[Cadno]

Gerrard is one of the finest players to ever wear our shirt, has won us a ton of stuff and has allowed us to punch above our weight most of his career.

Lucas is a promising young player whose time in the team has been accompanied by some record breaking failures, who still struggles with distribution, has accomplished absolutely nothing with us and gets far too much praise for doing a decent (never spectacular) job in the middle.

Lucas would get a fairer crack of the whip if he didn't have kuyt'ish super fans defending his honour every time he goes missing.  Overcompensation gets people's heckles up and causes them to overstate his weaknesses in kind.

Lucas is a decent cm/cdm.  If you don't like people crucifying him stop acting as though he's the second coming.

IN general what you have said here is true but Gerrard has been a firm fixture in the team that has "accompanied by some record breaking failures" in fact last year and for most of this year Lucas has been the better player in terms of performances so whilst we have been shit during that time, Gerrard has been worse than what some claim:

I have never seen a player who has played over 100 times for Liverpool who is as bad as Lucas Leiva.

  You are right some of the praise for Lucas is overboard and a little silly but most of the criticism is just regurgitated myths with very little basis in how good/bad the player actually is

[pistolpete]

There is so little basis for such a ridiculous statement.

It's this kind of nonsense that is keeping this debate going and going.

Which other young defensive CMs from top 4 clubs in the Premiership are better? Anderson/Denilson...both behind Lucas in getting picked by Brazil. Mikel? Huddlestone? I'd say Lucas is better than both.

Anyone else?

[drpepe]

A post that is devoid of all critical thought. He is actually a much better CM than Mascherano

I stopped reading there, given how ridiculous a statement that is.

me too, it is a classic 

99.5% of us probably agree that the fella is at least a decent young-ish player, with potential  - but best no to go overboard....

[liverpooll]

Please read my post. The bit of your post I quoted was when you said...
At the risk of pointing out the absurdly obvious, it's a fucking team game.

I know but it is about productivity which is the point which I said in my previous post...

[AJ4Seven]

I agree, to a point.

I wouldn't be such a harsh critic, but I totally agree with the sentiment that people are going way overboard in their praise of the lad and also that he is not up to the required standard.

You keep going on about the "required standard" please list the players in the league that are up to this standard?

[new-red]

I stopped reading there, given how ridiculous a statement that is.

good for you. See Masch is purely a DM. He is so one dimensional.

You may have had a lifetime of football watching but in terms of the finer points of the game, you are FOOTBALL ILLITERATE.

You only view the game as a supporter and don't try to understand how the team is supposed to work together from a managerial standpoint. It's why he is rated so highly by top managers. They understand how valuable he is to the balance of the side.

[Corkboy]

I know but it is about productivity which is the point which I said in my previous post...

You said (third time here)...

A lot of his game depends on the rest of the team.

Could you please point which of our players that does not apply to?

[new-red]

I would love to have a football debate in person with anyone of you. You would lose, and it wouldn't even be close. This is directed at the lucas doubters. You guys are so sure of yourself.