Topic: Gerrard Unbound

[liverpool_21]

Personally think he would excel on the right as well.

He's got killer delivery and well, can get past midfielders. Get him there and with carra out, glen and him would make the right their own.

[biratl]

And without Gerrard, Rafa would have won nothing here in six years - it's a two way street.

So out of that wonderfully articulated post, this is all you can appreciate? How fucking typical.

[Gee, Stevie]

Really good stuff, that.  I agree with most of it 100%, and even the other bits, I know exactly where you're coming from.

I'd love to see it, but I'm not sure Hodgson would see it working, could explain what role he would want Stevie to play, or would have the balls to even try it for a few games in a row.

Entertaining read as ever yorky. Excellent stuff. Hell of a statement to make that Lucas and Meireles are better than Mascherano, though.

Lucas and Meireles are both very different players to Masch (and Alonso).  I'd happily say that Lucas and Meireles is miles better than Lucas and Mascherano.

Masch, Xabi and Stevie through the middle was as close to perfect as we could have got, but it only lasted a few short seasons.

[lehman_bros]

Great Post.

Shame that we seem a lot better without SG...

[Raul!]

Outstanding post.  Trenchant analysis, as always, and with a wonderful turn of phrase.  Will add a few tidbits later when posting on RAWK will be a little less irresponsible.

In the meanwhile, one thought.  Thomas Mueller, of Bayern and Germany.  A player in the Gerrard mould if I ever saw one.  Played for Germany on the right and rampaged down that flank, making and scoring goals.  A real talent and I look forward to seeing how he develops.

[alex.]

Great post Yorky.

[ReeNah]

Great Post!

So:

Johnson   Wison   Agger   Insua

       Meireles   Lucas

Gerrard   Aquaman   Young

             Torres

Is that possible next year?

[downtown]

Great Post!

So:

Johnson   Wison   Agger   Insua

       Meireles   Lucas

Gerrard   Aquilani   Young

             Torres

Is that possible next year?

No

[gb096]

Good post....I agree with all you have said about SG in C midfield. But not sure he will be moved out of that role now....shame

[fowler9_god]

What a great post and mirrors my thoughts. Funny how 90% Liverpool fans in the thread feel the same way.

But, it will never happen. For one simple reason that Roy wants to be the anti Benitez. And IMO
was given the job because he was the opposite of Rafa. Arm around the shoulder, Less rotation,
Best players at their best positions, and  removing the shackles off the players ,whatever the fvck that means.

He wants to do all the 'wrong' things Rafa did, and set them right.

It starts of with Gerrard getting his 'rightful' place in the central midfield. That's what he did when
he first came on, but good tactical coaches like Capello and Benitez have deployed him in other
positions. Positions with less responsibility and with more attacking intent.

[ReeNah]

Why not downtown?

[downtown]

Why not downtown?

I don't think it's realistic at all.
Aquilani is as good as gone. Juve will probably seal the deal in Jan, unless he picks up a nasty knock and gets injured for a while.

We are not going to play 3 left footed defenders in our defense, 2 of whom not even 22

I was a critic of Insua, especially because I was unbelievable happy with his 08-09 performances, but then in the summer he ate too much mcdonald and it really hindered his development, but now that I am seeing Evans playing like a Confrence player (the same player who 2 years ago was keeping likes of Ibra and Drogba in his pocket), I am thinking maybe the bad patch of form was part of the process, and with the right personnel he could have got his weight under control.

I'd like to have him back as our back up LB to see how he copes this time, If he comes back, I really hope he's learned from his last season's mistakes.

[Walshy nMe®]

What a brilliant read, to wake up to.

Yorky you hit everything spot on.  As Garstonite said, bit of a claim to they are they are better than Masherano.  I for one would rather Alonso and Masch there, than Alonso + 1 of Lucas and Meireles, but they are the best we have for that position.

It's like playground football at the moment.  Just because Gerrard is the best, they play him where he wants and make him captain.  He is our best right sided player, play him there.

He aint out best CM and never will be because of how you accurately describe it.  Patience and Discipline.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

2) Lucas' inability to spot a pass or try the adventurous is his biggest weakness. Yes, patience and simplicity is sometimes the requirement, but for the perfect balance between possession and creation, look to players like Alonso, Xavi, Pirlo and Liverani. Yes, they may be 'lofty' names to live up to, but if a player is going to be in the midfield for his passing, that is the standard (or the requirement) we have at our club. Lucas can keep possession well, but, as a passing player, he is barely average. He would probably be part of our 'best midfield' right now, but that's as a result of losing two world class players and barely replacing them.

I think he is better at picking a pass than he is given credit for, especially if given the freedom to get into more advanced positions that an anchor behind him and Meireles would give.  The pass for the second of Torres' chances at the weekend being a case in point.

Apologies for picking on an individual point in an otherwise good post like.  On Aquilani, is it not time to accept that he has gone, another stupid decision, another bitter inheritance from Purslow's short but desperately destructive reign.

[nocturnalvin]

Right-of-centre, or inside right... abit like the Zidanes and Ronaldinhos, or more recently Ozil for Real Madrid, albeit they are on the left. The pace and the power of Stevie would be utterly useful.

I might even venture to have Stevie on the left-of-centre, seeing the inadequacy we have there at the moment. Aurelio at left back when fit.

[NZ Red]

Thanks for a great read, superbly written.

Still think he should be playing alongside Meireles and Lucas in a 4-3-3. His movement and energy with Meireles in the centre could be magic and both would have ample opportunity to get forward. Plus as part of a 3 we don't need to worry about him having his back to goal and can still utilise his long range passing from a deeper position, which we have needed since Alonso left.

I agree, i'd love to see us play a 4-3-3 to be honest.

[Yorkykopite]

I think there is potentially room for both.  With adventurous fullbacks like Johnson and Aurelio (or a less brittle replacement) then I think we can play a diamond in midfield. With Lucas and Meireles covered by a Mascherano like anchor and Gerrard playing just behind the front two (or Gerrard and Cole (Pacheco) playing behind Torres.

Killer Heels said something similar. It would be interesting. Two years ago I wanted a midfield quartet of Lucas-Masch-Alonso-Gerrard (our version of Gattuso-Pirlo-Seedorf-Kaka. A bit narrow perhaps, though less so with marauding full backs. I think only once - the 5-1 victory at Newcastle - did the quartet end up on the same pitch together.

Raul mentioned Thomas Muller. I agree. A wonderful player. Also one who interpreted the 'right wing' role in a way highly reminiscent of Gerrard.

A final thing. A few posters have objected to me saying that Gerrard lacks 'speed of thought' as well as patience. I'm going to defend that charge. I don't mean he isn't capable of being one step ahead of every other player on the pitch. He clearly is. He can play some genuinely surprising balls that split defences or dramatically shift the balance of play. But he does this through intuition and not by rote. What I meant was the routine stuff that central midfield demands. The quick first time pass and the desire to keep the ball moving at all costs. 'Patience' in this context does not mean doing things slowly. It means not trying to break a defence with a single strike, but it also means moving the ball quickly and constantly thinking ahead. Gerrard isn't brilliant at this in central midfield. He often needlessly stops the ball, looks up, weighs his options. That's too slow.   

[Carlito Roberto]

Excellent thought provoking read. Hadn't thought of moving Gerrard back out to the right, until reading this.

Definitely agree Gerrard is wasted in central midfield. He needs to be getting on the ball in positions where he can hurt the opposition.

[scared_person]

Excellent post yorky, again, and the standard of debate since is what makes this the best LFC forum on the web.

Particularly liked Corkboy's post. When Stevie is at his best he looks like a man playing u-16s football. His pace, strength and determination will go down in history.

I'd still like to see him reprise his role behind Torres. Do you think a 4-2-3-1 it could work even better if we had proper wingers providing real width, rather than attacking mids who like to get inside like Benayoun, Cole and Kuyt? I often thought Riera was a lot more important in the title challenge of 2008-9 than we give him credit for. Whatever his other weaknesses were he could beat a man and put a decent ball in. Where could I get his assist stats for that season?

[Greg]

A bit too long winded for me.

I know you've already been slated, but you are the perfect example of why I can't be bothered to ever make an effort on RAWK anymore.

RAWK belongs to people like you these days.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I know you've already been slated, but you are the perfect example of why I can't be bothered to ever make an effort on RAWK anymore.

RAWK belongs to people like you these days.

He's banned.  RAWK hardly belongs to him. 

Perhaps instead of concentrating on the negative you could join in the interesting discussion that has ensued, thus helping to make RAWK a better place?

[scared_person]

I know you've already been slated, but you are the perfect example of why I can't be bothered to ever make an effort on RAWK anymore.

RAWK belongs to people like you these days.

tbf its one post in how many? Theres a pretty high standard of debate in here.

[Greg]

He's banned.  RAWK hardly belongs to him. 

Perhaps instead of concentrating on the negative you could join in the interesting discussion that has ensued, thus helping to make RAWK a better place?

Good.

You are 100% right that I should make more of an effort, but I admit that I'm too disillusioned with RAWK these days to join in as much as I used to. Obviously, other commitments come into play as well. But carry on with the mass banning of people who offer absolutely fuck all to any debate and I will be back. Thanks la.

[Greg]

tbf its one post in how many? Theres a pretty high standard of debate in here.

Very true. This whole thread is excellent. I wish it was a typical cross section of RAWK.

[BazC]

Fantastic post yorky- I agree with every word of it.

Whilst I agree his best position isn't in the CM, I think it's less clear cut where it is- RM or supporting Torres... even LM as he plays for England?! I'd say anywhere behind Torres and in front of the midfielders- and surround him with quality players who help give him the platform to score goals when he can and bring others into play when he can't.

Aquilani was a *perfect* player for him- he could have been better than even Alonso was for him. ALL season we were playing a brand of non-football with Gerrard having no desire to change things. Introduce Aquilani, and it all evaporated in an instant; pass and move... fuck, some of the moves in that Atletico Semi final would have had even Barcelona fans drooling. It was a side to Gerrard (and Torres for that matter- he was holding the ball up and getting involved in an intricate pass and move game... something you wouldn't have thought he'd be able to do even at his best) I'd rarely seen.

I think it showed that he needs someone to direct his game- Alonso did it from deep, Aquilani did it from right next to him. Stick him in CM and he's playing in that role; it's not good for him and it's not good for the team.

Now we have Lucas and Meireles, and they're going to be a fine example of the Alonso/Aquilani types- supporting Gerrard and the attack with that foundation for pass and move.

Nope, Stevie's quality's never been in doubt, he's the best player I've seen play for this club.

But for me, his mentality has been. Last season he wasn't all there, and even this season he's not always been the player we were used to watching 2 seasons back. I don't think it's because 'his legs are gone', I think it's because he's uninspired with the lack of quality around him. Only difference is, is that he should be the inspirational leader on the pitch, but he's in leadership himself. That's the reason I'm wondering if he'll ever win the league title with us- because he'll only ever be the captain and automatic first starter for this team.

Reason is, I don't think Gerrard's the type of leader that Alonso, Sami and Reina were/are. He's more about showing the way on the pitch- you talk about overused cliches, so I apologise- but it really is "Roy of the Rovers" stuff. Which is great when he's banging in a 30 yarder in the FA Cup Semi final in the last minute, or making that run to win a penalty in the CL final... but in the long term? Over a whole season?

I think that's the main problem with Gerrard- and it probably always has been.

[mulhergremista]

Quality thread, I have been injoying reading it

[Yorkykopite]

OK Baz, we're on the same page. But I wonder if you'll agree with this.

Gerrard went missing last year because he was in shock (he wasn't the only one). The previous season had ended with us as the best team in the land. Yeah, I know we were second, but it was as plain as day that a couple of more additions to the team and we'd soon be the champions. When that didn't happen - indeed when our most important player was sold - it left everyone, Gerrard included, demoralised and even traumatised. The financial chaos enveloping the club intensified the despair. I think at some point last season Gerrard realised he probably wasn't going to win the league with Liverpool. That realisation had its effect.

This season is about restoring some self-belief and direction. The best news is that for the first time since Alonso's departure we have a pairing in midfield which is fit, technically able, has appetite and is likely to improve. Gerrard, I hope, is enthused not threatened by this.

Aquilani? Yes, to a point. But for some reason, which none of us has been able to fathom, Rafa didn't fancy him. It's possible that Albert didn't fancy the Premier League - a feeling that may have crystallised after that Atleti game you mention (Rather Atleti than Blackburn Roers etc). But I'll tell you my favourite moment involving Gerrard from last season, and it has more relevance to the future than anything involving Aquilani.  It was Pacheco's 10 minutes v Wolves on Boxing Day. Do you remember how electrified Gerrard became when the wee kid was on the pitch? The volts were surging through him for once. And Pacheco passed the 'Pennant-Bellamy Test' too. He demanded the ball off the captain a couple of times, he ignored Gerrard when he had better options, he generally did not appear intimidated. And Gerrard clearly liked it. Odd as it might seem, he saw in the teenager a peer.

More of that please.

[xerxes1]

Fantastic post yorky- I agree with every word of it.

Whilst I agree his best position isn't in the CM, I think it's less clear cut where it is- RM or supporting Torres... even LM as he plays for England?! I'd say anywhere behind Torres and in front of the midfielders- and surround him with quality players who help give him the platform to score goals when he can and bring others into play when he can't.

A very good analysis.

[stevied]

Great post, i prefer him wide right it gives us so much more width, in the hole he tends to recieve the ball with his back to Torres to much and the ball seems to be given straight back to the passer stagnating the move, his hot season when he scored so many goals he was wide right, his delivery on the run is excellent and Torres will benefit him being out there

[Valery_Karpin]

I think he is better at picking a pass than he is given credit for, especially if given the freedom to get into more advanced positions that an anchor behind him and Meireles would give.  The pass for the second of Torres' chances at the weekend being a case in point.

Apologies for picking on an individual point in an otherwise good post like.  On Aquilani, is it not time to accept that he has gone, another stupid decision, another bitter inheritance from Purslow's short but desperately destructive reign.

Thing is; you generally only reward a 'free role' to a player that scores and creates, as they provide the complete threat, which means their need to be everywhere is necessary. Lucas is a nice lad, I don't think he's a poor player by any means, I just don't feel he has any outstanding attribute at a world class level. He can maraud forward well; he can pass quite well; he has had the odd long shot; he seems to be good at getting wide open from set pieces; he battles well; he holds his position well; he isn't too slow; he has good mobility; but he has a fantastic attitude. I just feel central midfield is a position on the field where you need outstanding quality, a position where you need either great technical ability; great tenacity; great athleticism or a high combination of all. That's why I think Gerrard is still a better CM than Lucas, because, in spite of his average decision making/patience/lack of discipline, he will still create a lot more from CM and provide a far greater threat to the opposition, as Gerrard is still a lot quicker, a lot more skillful, a better passer and a far greater shooter; those attributes, even if combined with a mediocre brain, are still more dangerous than what Lucas brings to our midfield, IMO.

I don't want this to become another Lucas thread, the lad splits too much opinion and things often become highly exaggerated, but I do feel his effect and general level of ability is being a tad exaggerated by a few hopefuls on here. Not a bad thing, he may become the real deal eventually, but, for now, he isn't in the bracket of Alonso, Masch or Gerrard, or anywhere close, to be honest.

[Joe_Singh]

I too have been advocating Gerrard to play on the right since the 2006 season.

[royhendo]

Caledonia is indeed icy. And this is top drawer - thoroughly enjoyed it and agree.

[Nick110581]

I too have been advocating Gerrard to play on the right since the 2006 season.

Me too.

Reasons are obvious but he won't be moved there because Roy won't want to upset him.

And this is why we need a strong personality to manage him.

[Giono]

Excellent thread.

One other dimension to putting Gerrard on the right is that opponent left backs would need some help with Gerrard and Johnson creating havoc on the right. That would definitely create some space for Torres in the middle.

[pascoli]

Gerrards best position?

The number 8 in a 4-4-1-Gerrard line up.

[Rossie]

Great post Yorky, and an enjoyable read. 

People who say Gerrard wouldn't be happy on the right should remember he played his best footie ever there, scoring 23 goals one season and also that it's not like he'd be stuck to the touch line, he's a player who knows when to arrive in the box and can sense danger.  A right flank of him and Johnson would be unbelievable.  Lucas and Meireles has almost everything you need for a perfectly balanced midfield and if Aquilani was brought back the strength in debt in terms of quality and tactical options are almost limitless.

Thanks for the op, very good thread this.

[JackWard33]

The question is how are we not playing 4-3-3 when its so obviously right for our squad?

SG could play as the foremost of a midfield 3 or on the right of the front 3 in that system

[jagroop]

I totally agree with the post. SG has the ability to play so many positions and better than most but he truly excels when he has the chance to play off the Striker but he needs to have a creative playmaker in midfield to be effective which is why the loss of the Alonso type player was so detrimental to Liverpool.

[GrkStav]

Thing is; you generally only reward a 'free role' to a player that scores and creates, as they provide the complete threat, which means their need to be everywhere is necessary. Lucas is a nice lad, I don't think he's a poor player by any means, I just don't feel he has any outstanding attribute at a world class level. He can maraud forward well; he can pass quite well; he has had the odd long shot; he seems to be good at getting wide open from set pieces; he battles well; he holds his position well; he isn't too slow; he has good mobility; but he has a fantastic attitude. I just feel central midfield is a position on the field where you need outstanding quality, a position where you need either great technical ability; great tenacity; great athleticism or a high combination of all. That's why I think Gerrard is still a better CM than Lucas, because, in spite of his average decision making/patience/lack of discipline, he will still create a lot more from CM and provide a far greater threat to the opposition, as Gerrard is still a lot quicker, a lot more skillful, a better passer and a far greater shooter; those attributes, even if combined with a mediocre brain, are still more dangerous than what Lucas brings to our midfield, IMO.

I don't want this to become another Lucas thread, the lad splits too much opinion and things often become highly exaggerated, but I do feel his effect and general level of ability is being a tad exaggerated by a few hopefuls on here. Not a bad thing, he may become the real deal eventually, but, for now, he isn't in the bracket of Alonso, Masch or Gerrard, or anywhere close, to be honest.

On the basis of their performances this season, and given our current personnel, I don't think a good case can me made for Gerrard being used in CM in lieu of Lucas, unless it's as part of a rotation and for a specific match. Using them together in CM may be advisable if Meireles is unavailable. In a 4-2-3-1, Gerrard would be good enough or better than any other option we have, even at LF/LW.

[BazC]

OK Baz, we're on the same page. But I wonder if you'll agree with this.

Gerrard went missing last year because he was in shock (he wasn't the only one). The previous season had ended with us as the best team in the land. Yeah, I know we were second, but it was as plain as day that a couple of more additions to the team and we'd soon be the champions. When that didn't happen - indeed when our most important player was sold - it left everyone, Gerrard included, demoralised and even traumatised. The financial chaos enveloping the club intensified the despair. I think at some point last season Gerrard realised he probably wasn't going to win the league with Liverpool. That realisation had its effect.

This season is about restoring some self-belief and direction. The best news is that for the first time since Alonso's departure we have a pairing in midfield which is fit, technically able, has appetite and is likely to improve. Gerrard, I hope, is enthused not threatened by this.

Aquilani? Yes, to a point. But for some reason, which none of us has been able to fathom, Rafa didn't fancy him. It's possible that Albert didn't fancy the Premier League - a feeling that may have crystallised after that Atleti game you mention (Rather Atleti than Blackburn Roers etc). But I'll tell you my favourite moment involving Gerrard from last season, and it has more relevance to the future than anything involving Aquilani.  It was Pacheco's 10 minutes v Wolves on Boxing Day. Do you remember how electrified Gerrard became when the wee kid was on the pitch? The volts were surging through him for once. And Pacheco passed the 'Pennant-Bellamy Test' too. He demanded the ball off the captain a couple of times, he ignored Gerrard when he had better options, he generally did not appear intimidated. And Gerrard clearly liked it. Odd as it might seem, he saw in the teenager a peer.

More of that please.

Oh I do agree- but in some ways, the reason Gerrard played like he did last season wasn't my point- we all know why he did, it's because he was 'gutted' Alonso wasn't around anymore, and obviously felt the football impact of it. But he let it get to him and the way he played, and because he's the one player the rest are supposed to look to, he set the tone for the side. His performances were poor and so were the team's. Ironically, him having an epiphany that he wouldn't win the league with us just cemented that fact. I don't think that's too far from what happened- and what's happening to Torres now.

I hate comparing it to the way the Mancs got over Ronaldo and Tevez leaving in one summer (and not replacing either), but it's always the example I come to; a strong team will get over such 'losses' with other players stepping up to the plate.

It's interesting you mention that Wolves game (was Aquilani playing in it as well?) and Pacheco- because it's exactly why I thought Aquilani was a good player for Gerrard, and actually, why Lucas wasn't at the time. Since then, Lucas is dominating more and more (he's got no choice- he's obviously that good, that his confidence must have been ramped up a few notches) and of course, Meireles around as well, there is the midfield which will hopefully reintroduce that 'Alonso factor'. I still wish Aquilani was around, because he'd cement the quality foundation for that midfield to impose a quick pass and move game.

As it is now, and I've said it in the Kuyt thread, there are still weak links in our team to play that way. Hopefully with a couple of additions to that attacking line up over the next year, and we'll be able to reverse this downtrend and start looking up again.