Author Topic: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson  (Read 194959 times)

Offline gloves

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1880 on: November 6, 2010, 05:43:00 pm »
I just dont understand what you're getting at?

I have already said which manager I think is better out of Rafa and Roy, and I have already said that if Rafa had stayed on, and G&H had stayed on, then I'd have expected us to do about the same this season as last.   Give or take a place or two in either direction.





If Rafa had stayed, I seriously would still have expected us to be among the top 4 or competing for it.  Those are the standards after all.  That's just me though.  I felt that he had done enough in previous seasons to earn one more season after a single poor season and try to put things right.  I would have thought that would have been the feeling of most of the support, but I couldn't vouch for it.  Those who would have wanted him out would be demanding he put it right and those who didn't would be expecting and also wanting him to put things right and get back into the top 4.  I can't see how one poor season of under achievement when compared to Rafa's previous league performances would have had you expecting us to be mid-table this season if he had stayed on (or indeed if Roy replaced him).

Nevertheless, if I am incorrect in my opinion of expectations in that scenario, it would still appear daft to bring in a manager that would only be able to achieve the same as the one you are looking to replace?  Not to mention spending money that we apparently didn't have to make it happen?  If that is the case it would strengthen the opinion that there was more at play than simply football performance in the decision.  But I suppose most people know that was the case anyway?

Offline kennys men

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1881 on: November 6, 2010, 05:50:29 pm »
well in rafa he speaks the truth and he loves our club Y.N.W.A rafa
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Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1882 on: November 6, 2010, 05:50:37 pm »
So you're saying with

G&H + Rafa you think we would have gone between maybe 5th and 9th

and now with

G&H + Roy you are not surprised we are bottom half of the table?

So why should we keep Roy then?

I am not surprised that a team's position after 8 games is different to its position after 38 games.

Last season Everton and Brum finished between 5th and 9th.  They were 13th and 15th after 10 games.

In 05/06, we were 12th after 10 games.


I aint giving you a guarantee that things will get better if that's what you're asking for. 

I wont bother repeating what it is that I AM saying, because I think I've already made that clear.  I know I have said it before, but this time I am definitely out.


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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1883 on: November 6, 2010, 09:46:31 pm »
I'm done with this thread too, there are no excuses for losing to a League Two side at home (not a Championship side) and anybody who says they expected us to be as bad as we have under Hodgson and haven't been disappointed with our season so far is only going to get short shrift from me, so I'll keep my thoughts to myself from now on.

Offline mikeyjazz

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1884 on: November 6, 2010, 09:59:46 pm »
Haha, this video is brilliant and perfectly sums up the feeling in this forum! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM2xNiBZuqU

Offline Stussy

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1885 on: November 6, 2010, 10:04:46 pm »
If you're saying that part of the reason that Roy is finding it difficult to get the fans behind him due to the fact that he was appointed during the Reign of Terror, then I think you're right.

I guess what I am trying to say is that that isnt logical. 

It aint as if he supported G&H.  He will have been told by CP and MB what the score was.  ie that G&H would be out by mid-October.

Hodgson joining LFC is no different from a moral point of view than Benitez or Houllier.


"A moral point of view" is an interesting phrase to use.

At a certain point, you can't argue with feeling and emotion.

Morally, people feel Rafa was discarded prematurely and improperly and without the diligence that has been the case in most of our previous change of leadership since Shankly.

Morally, people feel that Purslow did not have a mandate to do what he did.

Morally, people felt that Liverpool FC should only ever change their manager if they can secure the services of either an equal or better manager.

Morally, people feel that Rafa had done enough over his tenure to at least deserve another season to rectify his mistakes, and to see if he could accomodate himself into any new system when we get new owners.

Morally, the man who scouted and signed the likes of Torres, Reina and Mascherano, and took us from the pigsty of European competition to becoming a swaggering name again, winning one and reaching another final, to such a degree that under him we became the number one rated team in Europe, winning in the greatest citadels of the game like the Nou Camp, Bernebau and San Siro, so much so that we sent a chill down the spine of any club that drew us, morally speaking, Rafa should his capabilities under the command of a terrible set of ownership and working conditions, suggesting he would be able to at least equal that under a stable situation that helped rather than hindered him, and one terrible season did not singlehandedly wipe out that.


Morally, people felt that at a vulnerable moment in our life, when we were facing such severe pressures externally and internally, that continuity and stability was the most important thing.

Morally, we had a manager utterly in tune with our way of thinking, and the culture of our club and city, to an almost uncanny degree, something evident in his donations to the HJC and Rhys Jones memorial charity and in a million other different ways.

Morally, people felt that every manager must be judged by how they perform relative to a number of factors and the extreme stress in the ground reality of our club over the last few years made Rafa stand in good moral stead.

Morally, Rafa would be subject to review of his fitness for office at the end of another season. Either if he could work under the new owners under their rules, or if he failed to advance us, morally Rafa would have to face up to it.

But morallly, for all those reasons, rooted in a rational approach, there was something especially grubby and callous about the way Rafa was done away with.

So morally, and emotionally, and in their instinct, they feel an assassination took place.

Quite apart from his comparative inferiority as a manager, Roy's conduct has made things worse. The passivity of our play at the beginning of the season exacerbated this. His press conferences, demeanour, and mentality grates. Morally and stylistically.

Having said that, I believe we can still get fourth place and secure Champions League. Roy is going to have to pull his finger out to achieve this. And we have to move on and draw a line under this.

At the end of the day, as much as I disagree with all those who wanted Rafa out, I want to be singing songs of victory with them as my Red comrade, rather than arguing about the morality and efficacy of what took place in the summer.

For the greater good, I want us all to move on, and dream and believe again.



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Offline impz

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1886 on: November 6, 2010, 10:51:18 pm »
If Rafa had stayed, I seriously would still have expected us to be among the top 4 or competing for it.  Those are the standards after all.  That's just me though.  I felt that he had done enough in previous seasons to earn one more season after a single poor season and try to put things right.  I would have thought that would have been the feeling of most of the support, but I couldn't vouch for it.  Those who would have wanted him out would be demanding he put it right and those who didn't would be expecting and also wanting him to put things right and get back into the top 4.  I can't see how one poor season of under achievement when compared to Rafa's previous league performances would have had you expecting us to be mid-table this season if he had stayed on (or indeed if Roy replaced him).

Nevertheless, if I am incorrect in my opinion of expectations in that scenario, it would still appear daft to bring in a manager that would only be able to achieve the same as the one you are looking to replace?  Not to mention spending money that we apparently didn't have to make it happen?  If that is the case it would strengthen the opinion that there was more at play than simply football performance in the decision.  But I suppose most people know that was the case anyway?

Tbf mate..

sorry to quotw you whole post but there were plenty off whoppers that wanted Rafa gona in 2007 even more in 2008 and a staggering amount wanted him gone after january 2009 in the summer not a single person had changed their mind.. We just finished second and still twats wanted him gone!

I've been a fan since I can remember myself but we truly have some whoppers supporting our club... and it was all excasperated (sp?) since 2005 when cause we won the CL we should of won the league.. We never had the squad to do it.... 2008/09 was the closest we've gotten.. 09/10 was an abberation made worse with removing a fantastic manager with a no good for nothing one.
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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1887 on: November 7, 2010, 02:37:22 am »
At the end of the day, as much as I disagree with all those who wanted Rafa out, I want to be singing songs of victory with them as my Red comrade, rather than arguing about the morality and efficacy of what took place in the summer.
Fantastic post Stussy and right on the money for the way I'm feeling.

The last few years really took a physical toll on Rafa and I really couldn't take much more of the ridicule thrown his way by the media. So for Rafa's sake I hope he stays with Inter and wins some trophies. Personally, I'm glad I stuck by our manager when the going got tough, whilst he was fighting for our club.

More importantly there's too many fellow Reds who, let's say, would be uncomfortable with Rafa managing us again. It'd be ground hog day. Battle lines drawn and the same cyclical arguments, game after game, day after day. As we recently proved, as supporters we're at our best working together, fighting for eachother. I want to keep that going and it won't happen if we keeping looking backwards.

For the greater good, I want us all to move on, and dream and believe again [too].

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1888 on: November 7, 2010, 03:22:48 am »
Does anyone know where these quotes come from? Are they true?

IAN RUSH TELLS RAFA BENITEZ: SHUT IT!

LIVERPOOL legend Ian Rush has told his noisy neighbour Rafa Benitez: Stop moaning about Liverpool!

Benitez launched a bitter and confused rant at Anfield successor Roy Hodgson before his new club Inter Milan crashed to Champions League defeat at Tottenham 3-1 last Tuesday.


Ex-Liverpool boss Rafa was upset Hodgson suggested he had inherited problems and claimed Benitez hadn’t rolled out the training ground red carpet for club legend Kenny Dalglish in the way he had.

Hodgson has since apologised – something Benitez never did in his controversial reign after making mistakes, according to Rushie.

Rush, who lives a few doors down from Benitez’s luxury home on the Wirrall, said: “Rafa and Liverpool chose the right time to part company. And that should be it.

“Rafa’s a close neighbour of mine but I don’t mind saying that he’s manager of Inter Milan now and should concentrate on his new club.

“If he did, he would earn more respect from other managers. If he had held his hand up and said it was his fault for some of the decisions he made at Liverpool, he would get more respect, too.


“He did make mistakes but never put his hand up and said sorry. Only Rafa and the owners knew what went on at the club but now he’s left.


“It’s time now for him to move on. Rafa has got to leave it. He’s got to back off and get on with his own job.
“You can’t keep on living in the past, Rafa. Just the same as Liverpool, the club, can’t keep living in the past. So basically, just keep quiet and say nothing more about my club.”  (That should be our club is Rafa some kind of outsider now?)

Meanwhile, Rush predicts Kop hitman Fernando Torres is showing signs that he is getting back to his best – and is warning Chelsea to watch out today.


“Liverpool are only five points from a Champions League place with Wigan, Stoke and West Ham coming up,” said Rush.


“On their day, Liverpool can beat anyone. And that’s why they will defeat Chelsea.”

« Last Edit: November 7, 2010, 03:26:14 am by Fanxxxxtastic »
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Offline downtown

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1889 on: November 7, 2010, 03:30:24 am »
What a rant by Ian  ;D

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1890 on: November 7, 2010, 03:32:16 am »
What a rant by Ian  ;D

But wrong he thinks he has the right to say what he thinks but not Rafa.

Something not right about that.

And the source is not that great.
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Offline downtown

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1891 on: November 7, 2010, 03:32:37 am »
it's from daily star btw......dunno if reliable

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1892 on: November 7, 2010, 03:34:29 am »
it's from daily star btw......dunno if reliable

I know that why I asked if anyone knows where these quotes come from in the first place.

Surely he didn't give an interview to the Star but maybe he did.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2010, 03:36:28 am by Fanxxxxtastic »
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Offline Jokerman

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1893 on: November 7, 2010, 03:37:53 am »
Surely he didn't give an interview to the Star but maybe he did.

Why not?

How come Aquilani wasn't in the squad today?

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1894 on: November 7, 2010, 03:40:35 am »
Why not?



No reason apart from it being a really shit paper and makes you wonder if the quotes are real or not.
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Offline Jokerman

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1895 on: November 7, 2010, 03:45:31 am »
No reason apart from it being a really shit paper and makes you wonder if the quotes are real or not.

They are direct quotes though, they wouldn't just make that up out of thin air. Yes, I know it's The Daily Star and everything but even so. Rushie was never the sharpest tool in the box in any case. Without saying that I'm in agreement with Rushie, in a sense he does have more of a right than Rafa as he has no involvement in any other football club and his job as a pundit requires him to offer his opinion, whilst it shouldn't be the place of the Inter manager to be talking about Liverpool.
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Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1896 on: November 7, 2010, 03:47:03 am »
I really hope it's not true. If it is do all these ex-players and so called experts not realise that it's them who's not leaving this subject alone and how much the media in Britain fucking thrive on shit like this? Without a shadow of a doubt, if it's true, it's so fucking easy for a journo at a press conference to say

"Rafa. Ian Rush has recently made more comments about your reign as liverpool managers, saying that you should hold your hands up and admit that some of your decisions were at fault. He says that you'd get more respect from other managers in england if you did this and that you should keep quiet and not say anything about his club, liverpool. How do you respond to this?"

They delight in shit like this, they're still delighting in annoying the fuck out of the man with questions about liverpool. Everyone. Every single fucking person either involved with the club or that used to be should leave the subject of Rafa at liverpool totally alone. We're all sick to death of it, no matter what you feel about Rafa when he was here, enough is fucking enough now.

I just want the club to have some room to breathe and if Rushies come out with this, then it's him who needs to keep quiet about the whole situation and stop feeding the fire.
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1897 on: November 7, 2010, 03:49:10 am »
I am not surprised that a team's position after 8 games is different to its position after 38 games.

Last season Everton and Brum finished between 5th and 9th.  They were 13th and 15th after 10 games.

In 05/06, we were 12th after 10 games.


I aint giving you a guarantee that things will get better if that's what you're asking for. 

I wont bother repeating what it is that I AM saying, because I think I've already made that clear.  I know I have said it before, but this time I am definitely out.



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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1898 on: November 7, 2010, 03:50:37 am »
They are direct quotes though, they wouldn't just make that up out of thin air. Yes, I know it's The Daily Star and everything but even so. Rushie was never the sharpest tool in the box in any case. Without saying that I'm in agreement with Rushie, in a sense he does have more of a right than Rafa as he has no involvement in any other football club and his job as a pundit requires him to offer his opinion, whilst it shouldn't be the place of the Inter manager to be talking about Liverpool.

Really a ex player has more of a right to put his feeling across about the club than an Ex manager?

Why is that?

And being a pundit isn't an excuse.

I would believe the person who really knew what was going on, and not guessing to fill a column.
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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1899 on: November 7, 2010, 03:51:11 am »
Great post Stussy. I agree with almost everything. Just don't think Roy will manage 4th though. Would be delighted to be proved wrong but unfortunately don't have any rational basis to believe that.

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1900 on: November 7, 2010, 03:54:27 am »
I wonder what the super whoppers and ex-player pundits would say if Rafa ever went the pundit route and just started mercilessly ripping that current crop of players and managers? I'm sure the hypocrites would start whining then too.

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1901 on: November 7, 2010, 03:55:47 am »
Really a ex player has more of a right to put his feeling across about the club than an Ex manager?

Why is that?

And being a pundit isn't an excuse.

I would believe the person who really knew what was going on, and not guessing to fill a column.

I'm saying that would be the case if you detach yourself from everything. If Mark Hughes was in the news talking about Man City all the time for example, then the rest of us would be thinking 'shut up about them and move on', and question how much it was affecting both Fulham and City. Of course everything is much more complex than that though.

Rushie's been asked a question and gave an opinion, that's all. That's his job no matter the quality of that opinion. That isn't Rafa's job.
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Offline Jokerman

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1902 on: November 7, 2010, 03:56:41 am »
I wonder what the super whoppers and ex-player pundits would say if Rafa ever went the pundit route and just started mercilessly ripping that current crop of players and managers? I'm sure the hypocrites would start whining then too.

I don't know but that would be entertaining at least!
How come Aquilani wasn't in the squad today?

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1903 on: November 7, 2010, 04:02:47 am »
I'm saying that would be the case if you detach yourself from everything. If Mark Hughes was in the news talking about Man City all the time for example, then the rest of us would be thinking 'shut up about them and move on', and question how much it was affecting both Fulham and City. Of course everything is much more complex than that though.

Rushie's been asked a question and gave an opinion, that's all. That's his job no matter the quality of that opinion. That isn't Rafa's job.

I know what you are saying.

But lately I don't really trust our Ex-players.

Most of them have seemed to have turned into rent a quote machine they will say anything that makes them a buck.

Bad to think that way I know  but thats the way it seems to come across.

You only have to look at what they were saying before Rafa was sacked to the day after he was sacked.
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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1904 on: November 7, 2010, 04:15:23 am »
I know what you are saying.

But lately I don't really trust our Ex-players.

Most of them have seemed to have turned into rent a quote machine they will say anything that makes them a buck.

Bad to think that way I know  but thats the way it seems to come across.

You only have to look at what they were saying before Rafa was sacked to the day after he was sacked.

I really don't like our ex-players being castigated for holding an opinion. There were people calling Alan Hansen all sorts the other week for having an opinion they disagreed with. It's got out of hand. We make too much of what they say sometimes. They're not schooled in journalism or broadcasting and have next to no understanding of the media by and large, they're only offering an opinion because someone pays them to do so and it gives them a connection to their playing days. Ian Rush has said what he's said and I don't agree with it, but it's just his opinion. It doesn't make what he did as a player for us any the less remarkable and I can see what will happen when people see what he's said and respond to it.
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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1905 on: November 7, 2010, 04:23:11 am »
Oh great another ex-player coming out with their ignorant bile. Rafa responded to accusations Rush and has the moral right to defend himself. If you're too thick to understand that then perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself and not make a fool out of yourself
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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1906 on: November 7, 2010, 04:41:23 am »
This is getting beyond Pavlovian. It seems some people have nothing better to do than work themselves into a lather.

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1907 on: November 7, 2010, 04:47:20 am »
I stopped reading at "Bitter and confused rant" ..... didn't even bother after that

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1908 on: November 7, 2010, 08:58:08 am »
"A moral point of view" is an interesting phrase to use.

At a certain point, you can't argue with feeling and emotion.

Morally, people feel Rafa was discarded prematurely and improperly and without the diligence that has been the case in most of our previous change of leadership since Shankly.

Morally, people feel that Purslow did not have a mandate to do what he did.

Morally, people felt that Liverpool FC should only ever change their manager if they can secure the services of either an equal or better manager.

Morally, people feel that Rafa had done enough over his tenure to at least deserve another season to rectify his mistakes, and to see if he could accomodate himself into any new system when we get new owners.

Morally, the man who scouted and signed the likes of Torres, Reina and Mascherano, and took us from the pigsty of European competition to becoming a swaggering name again, winning one and reaching another final, to such a degree that under him we became the number one rated team in Europe, winning in the greatest citadels of the game like the Nou Camp, Bernebau and San Siro, so much so that we sent a chill down the spine of any club that drew us, morally speaking, Rafa should his capabilities under the command of a terrible set of ownership and working conditions, suggesting he would be able to at least equal that under a stable situation that helped rather than hindered him, and one terrible season did not singlehandedly wipe out that.


Morally, people felt that at a vulnerable moment in our life, when we were facing such severe pressures externally and internally, that continuity and stability was the most important thing.

Morally, we had a manager utterly in tune with our way of thinking, and the culture of our club and city, to an almost uncanny degree, something evident in his donations to the HJC and Rhys Jones memorial charity and in a million other different ways.

Morally, people felt that every manager must be judged by how they perform relative to a number of factors and the extreme stress in the ground reality of our club over the last few years made Rafa stand in good moral stead.

Morally, Rafa would be subject to review of his fitness for office at the end of another season. Either if he could work under the new owners under their rules, or if he failed to advance us, morally Rafa would have to face up to it.

But morallly, for all those reasons, rooted in a rational approach, there was something especially grubby and callous about the way Rafa was done away with.

So morally, and emotionally, and in their instinct, they feel an assassination took place.

Quite apart from his comparative inferiority as a manager, Roy's conduct has made things worse. The passivity of our play at the beginning of the season exacerbated this. His press conferences, demeanour, and mentality grates. Morally and stylistically.

Having said that, I believe we can still get fourth place and secure Champions League. Roy is going to have to pull his finger out to achieve this. And we have to move on and draw a line under this.

At the end of the day, as much as I disagree with all those who wanted Rafa out, I want to be singing songs of victory with them as my Red comrade, rather than arguing about the morality and efficacy of what took place in the summer.

For the greater good, I want us all to move on, and dream and believe again.


That's all very interesting, but nothing to do with the point that I made.

Roy took over a post that was vacant.  Thus it was morally the same as Rafa taking over a post which was vacant.

The point I was making is that there is no reason for Rafa, or for you, or for anybody else to treat Roy as being responsible for stealing Rafa's job from him.

And that point stands EVEN IF you believe that Rafa's people did not speak to Inter before Rafa agreed terms for leaving Liverpool.

So blame whoever you want for Rafa leaving, but dont blame Hodgson.


The mistake I made before, of course, was to say that Houllier was also in the same boat.  He wasnt.  He joined when Evans was still in post. 



Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1909 on: November 7, 2010, 09:08:35 am »
Personally, I'm glad I stuck by our manager when the going got tough, whilst he was fighting for our club.

"Glad"?  I aint sure what "glad" means in this context.

But certainly I "stuck by" Rafa while he was here, and I am sorry he left. 

I happen to think that his departure was more complicated than some people, especially the Roy-Haters, care to acknowledge.  But I still wish that Rafa and the other important actors had made different decisions over the last 18 months or so, which had resulted in Rafa still being here when the new owners came in.

Fact is though, he is now gone.

Deal with it.

You talk about the going being "tough" under Rafa's management.

Not really.  Last season was by no means our worst in the last 20. 

If you are at all interested in showing that you have what it takes to stick by the club when the going actually DOES get tough, then how about showing some stomach for the fight right here and now in November 2011.

Swallow up your disappointment that Rafa aint the manager any more, just like previous generations had to when Dalglish left, or Paisley left, or Shankly left. 

Rather than berate the current incumbent for "not being Rafa", acknowledge the fact that Roy Hodgson is currently trying to get as many wins as possible for LFC, whereas Rafa Benitez is currently trying to get as many wins as possible for Internazionale.

Ask yourself, "Which manager do you want to be more successful this season?"

 


Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1910 on: November 7, 2010, 09:14:11 am »
Either you belive or you don't.

I either believe what or I dont?

At the moment, if I was placing a bet, I'd say we'd finish 8th to 10th.

If our next few games continue the improvement of the last few (I aint gonna read to much into today's result one way or the other) then I'll be optimistic that we might come 5th or 6th.  (Only 5th guarantees EL football, although 6th is usually enough since one of the cups is usually won by a club in the top 5)

If Spurs and Man C continue to wobble, then 4th place is not impossible, although I would need very good odds to bet on that.





Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1911 on: November 7, 2010, 09:22:25 am »
Oh great another ex-player coming out with their ignorant bile. Rafa responded to accusations Rush and has the moral right to defend himself. If you're too thick to understand that then perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself and not make a fool out of yourself

I dunno who you think you are, but I'm willing to bet  huge sums on the fact that Ian Rush has done, and continues to do, a lot more for LFC than you ever have.

How dare you call it  ignorant bile just because his opinion is different to yours.  The only person making a fool of himself is you. 

Rushie aint telling you to keep your opinion to yourself, and nor am I.  But maybe you'd do well to consider that, since you have the right to express your opinion about LFC, then Rushie has a million times greater right than you do.

You dont necessarily have to agree with him.  But at least show some respect.


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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1912 on: November 7, 2010, 09:23:58 am »
I personally am not berating Roy for not being Rafa.  I just think that Roy isn't good enough for us.

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1913 on: November 7, 2010, 09:28:00 am »
With this squad it doesn't matter much who is coach.
Passing is bad, positioning not great and confidence low.

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1914 on: November 7, 2010, 09:33:33 am »
Rushie should get his facts straight before stomping off to the papers and giving his opinion. Rafa was responding to criticism from the ex owners and the CURRENT manager of LFC, and had every right to defend himself. Rushie then trotts out the old line of "he never admitted responsibility for his mistakes" when there are a number of interviews he did admitting himself that he had mistakes.

Sounds like just another ex player trying to slam Rafa and defend Purslows decision to remove him.

I look forward to Rushies interview next week where he tells Hodgson to concentrate on managing Liverpool and stop talking about the ex manager.

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1915 on: November 7, 2010, 09:52:46 am »
I personally am not berating Roy for not being Rafa.  I just think that Roy isn't good enough for us.

Me too.

With this squad it doesn't matter much who is coach.
Passing is bad, positioning not great and confidence low.

I don't know if you're joking or not but if you aren't, then you're underestimating the value of a coach.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1916 on: November 7, 2010, 09:53:44 am »
Great post Stussy. I agree with almost everything. Just don't think Roy will manage 4th though. Would be delighted to be proved wrong but unfortunately don't have any rational basis to believe that.

Yeah I tend to agree. I think I said it more in hope than expectation.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Stussy

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1917 on: November 7, 2010, 09:55:49 am »
That's all very interesting, but nothing to do with the point that I made.

Roy took over a post that was vacant.  Thus it was morally the same as Rafa taking over a post which was vacant.

The point I was making is that there is no reason for Rafa, or for you, or for anybody else to treat Roy as being responsible for stealing Rafa's job from him.

And that point stands EVEN IF you believe that Rafa's people did not speak to Inter before Rafa agreed terms for leaving Liverpool.

So blame whoever you want for Rafa leaving, but dont blame Hodgson.


The mistake I made before, of course, was to say that Houllier was also in the same boat.  He wasnt.  He joined when Evans was still in post. 

With respect mate, it has everything to do with the point you made. It explains why a stench hangs over Hodgson's appointment, and it also explains where logic and emotion intersect to explain why many people feel there is a moral issue over his presence at our club - an instinct and feeling and emotion that didn't abide when Houllier and Rafa took over, to use the examples you used.

Now, as I said, this is something that will probably never be resolved until we have collectively moved on. Which makes it imperative for us to regain our form, and at some stage, have a leader or system that we can believe in again, as one, moving forward together as Reds.


 
« Last Edit: November 7, 2010, 09:59:09 am by Stussy »
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1918 on: November 7, 2010, 10:00:31 am »
Just had a look at the Inter Milan forum following the large italian journalist (seen his face regularly but don't know his name) stating yesterday that all was not well there, and that Rafa may be in trouble if they don't win the World Club Championship. This was prior to the home draw to Brescia.

It could be RAWK of 8 months ago, spliting the fans down the middle. The non believers asking why he took off one of their best players yesterday when losing, why three of their best players are out of form at the same time (arm around the shoulder motivation mentioned), why he ended up with 4 centre backs on the pitch, why the team is drawing so many matches. The believers saying he is a world class coach. Interesting eh...... 
Let's also never forget the 39!

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Re: Rafa sugar coats Hodgson
« Reply #1919 on: November 7, 2010, 10:08:22 am »
"A moral point of view" is an interesting phrase to use.

At a certain point, you can't argue with feeling and emotion.

Morally, people feel Rafa was discarded prematurely and improperly and without the diligence that has been the case in most of our previous change of leadership since Shankly.

Morally, people feel that Purslow did not have a mandate to do what he did.

Morally, people felt that Liverpool FC should only ever change their manager if they can secure the services of either an equal or better manager.

Morally, people feel that Rafa had done enough over his tenure to at least deserve another season to rectify his mistakes, and to see if he could accomodate himself into any new system when we get new owners.

Morally, the man who scouted and signed the likes of Torres, Reina and Mascherano, and took us from the pigsty of European competition to becoming a swaggering name again, winning one and reaching another final, to such a degree that under him we became the number one rated team in Europe, winning in the greatest citadels of the game like the Nou Camp, Bernebau and San Siro, so much so that we sent a chill down the spine of any club that drew us, morally speaking, Rafa should his capabilities under the command of a terrible set of ownership and working conditions, suggesting he would be able to at least equal that under a stable situation that helped rather than hindered him, and one terrible season did not singlehandedly wipe out that.


Morally, people felt that at a vulnerable moment in our life, when we were facing such severe pressures externally and internally, that continuity and stability was the most important thing.

Morally, we had a manager utterly in tune with our way of thinking, and the culture of our club and city, to an almost uncanny degree, something evident in his donations to the HJC and Rhys Jones memorial charity and in a million other different ways.

Morally, people felt that every manager must be judged by how they perform relative to a number of factors and the extreme stress in the ground reality of our club over the last few years made Rafa stand in good moral stead.

Morally, Rafa would be subject to review of his fitness for office at the end of another season. Either if he could work under the new owners under their rules, or if he failed to advance us, morally Rafa would have to face up to it.

But morallly, for all those reasons, rooted in a rational approach, there was something especially grubby and callous about the way Rafa was done away with.

So morally, and emotionally, and in their instinct, they feel an assassination took place.

Quite apart from his comparative inferiority as a manager, Roy's conduct has made things worse. The passivity of our play at the beginning of the season exacerbated this. His press conferences, demeanour, and mentality grates. Morally and stylistically.

Having said that, I believe we can still get fourth place and secure Champions League. Roy is going to have to pull his finger out to achieve this. And we have to move on and draw a line under this.

At the end of the day, as much as I disagree with all those who wanted Rafa out, I want to be singing songs of victory with them as my Red comrade, rather than arguing about the morality and efficacy of what took place in the summer.

For the greater good, I want us all to move on, and dream and believe again.



Another belting post from you lad, well said, personally I would like to see Roy gone, as soon as possible, he has done and said enough to make me believe that he is not a Liverpool FC manager. For us to dream and believe again we need a leader.
« Last Edit: November 7, 2010, 10:13:25 am by vicgill »
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