Author Topic: Thank you Guardian.  (Read 50121 times)

Offline dernaroy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #320 on: March 6, 2012, 06:01:44 PM »
No, it didn't 'play a part'. Not at all. The whole thing started off from a book written by Nick Davies, one of their principle journalists. They gave him a lot of help and support in creating that book, a lot of co-operation too, even though a whole chapter of it is very critical of the Guardian itself. The whole hacking investigation was done by a team headed by Davies, employed, funded, supported, published, checked and followed up by the Guardian. It's about the only piece of investigative journalism I can think of for a very long time that actually took aim at the media itself. I don't think any other paper would fund such an investigation - the media, as a rule, does not investigate itself, and regardless of football coverage the Guardian deserves credit for that.

As an investigation it will have required a lot of genuine work, proper collecting of sources, wading through tons of data which won't all have been on the record, talking to journalists and private investigators and corroborating that information, all the effort that goes into fact checking it, making it watertight in the knowledge that any mistakes would have brought serious, serious legal action from extremely wealthy papers whose resources utterly dwarf the Guardian's. Not to mention that the whole case was extremely 'unsafe', namely picking on other media is not an easy way to get published, it's likely to be met with counter-claims and serious aggression.

That's not to belittle the Telegraph's work at all, credit to them - but in comparison to the Murdoch press, and the press in general, politicians are a very soft target. More to the point most of the expenses stuff will have been a matter of public record - yes, still a lot of data crunching but all of it from publicly available sources - electoral registers, the register of interests, maybe talking to family, friends, neighbours etc who would all have been easier to find, and against targets who can't afford to throw lawyers at you in the way Murdoch can.

It remains the paper most likely to give you 'the truth'. As a rule, it receives among the fewest complaints to the PCC, utterly dwarfed in terms of complaints by the Murdoch stable, which are in turn dwarfed in terms of complaints by the leading peddler of untruth and distortion in Britain - The Daily Mail, and while it's sports section is well worthy of contempt in my view - it's a total betrayal of what the paper is supposed to stand for, and it's absurd that they don't hold the whole section to the kind of standard that David Conn sets - the investigation into phone hacking deserves a lot better than to be damned with faint praise, and a suggestion that plenty of other papers are doing that kind of thing because they simply aren't, no other paper would have taken on such an investigation, and no other paper has come out with something like this for a long time. One paper effectively bringing down another paper through investigative journalism is pretty much unheard of, certainly in this country, as far as I know. Let alone a title as huge and profitable and powerfully backed as the NOTW.

Great post.
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

Offline dernaroy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #321 on: March 6, 2012, 06:05:26 PM »
Much of the criticism directed towards the Guardian seems to be at its football coverage, and in particular at its handling of the Suarez affair. Is it possible we're all being a bit touchy and parochial? Do their football writers churn out biased crap about other clubs?

Well yes they do but is that relevant? Whether we're being touchy or parochial isn't really relevant. What's relevant is that they lied on several occasions when reporting the Suarez affair and subsequent issues.

I don't have enough knowledge about other clubs in terms of blatantly lying about them but they certainly peddle bullsh*t transfer stories and have numerous blogs/articles which are founded solely in speculation.
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #322 on: March 6, 2012, 06:10:42 PM »

In all seriousness mate, I know you love the newspaper,

Yeah, that's not childish at all...

Quote
but I'l lash out and call them a bunch of shithouses because of their editorial line without incurring a fatwa from a true Guardian believer, because whatever good articles they write about from time to time, I don't have to defer to them as a whole, in my raw nerved Red way. Agreed? They're not the bloody messiah!

You're imagining the fatwa, I just said you were being daft.
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Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #323 on: March 6, 2012, 06:13:52 PM »

OK here is the thing. The editorial line over the recent issue at the Guardian traduced this club and was vituperative, one eyed, blind and fanatical. Much more so than any criticism that has been made towards it here. All those offended by anything less than a reverential consideration of this holy newspaper should spare your energy defending them here, and pen letters to the Guardian itself and take issue with their line, as loyal Guardian readers yourself.

Only one problem - you're likely to be either censored for criticising them, or ignored altogether. And thats the problem.

Also, don't be so touchy.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #324 on: March 6, 2012, 06:15:47 PM »
Yeah, that's not childish at all...

What's wrong with being childish?

I just said you were being daft.

Not as daft as the Guardian is sometimes *


* takes care not to generalise and cause offence to the Guardian


"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #325 on: March 6, 2012, 06:57:24 PM »
Never mind, I'm sure you're much funnier in real life.
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Offline hassinator

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #326 on: March 6, 2012, 06:57:30 PM »
No, it didn't 'play a part'. Not at all. The whole thing started off from a book written by Nick Davies, one of their principle journalists. They gave him a lot of help and support in creating that book, a lot of co-operation too, even though a whole chapter of it is very critical of the Guardian itself. The whole hacking investigation was done by a team headed by Davies, employed, funded, supported, published, checked and followed up by the Guardian. It's about the only piece of investigative journalism I can think of for a very long time that actually took aim at the media itself. I don't think any other paper would fund such an investigation - the media, as a rule, does not investigate itself, and regardless of football coverage the Guardian deserves credit for that.

As an investigation it will have required a lot of genuine work, proper collecting of sources, wading through tons of data which won't all have been on the record, talking to journalists and private investigators and corroborating that information, all the effort that goes into fact checking it, making it watertight in the knowledge that any mistakes would have brought serious, serious legal action from extremely wealthy papers whose resources utterly dwarf the Guardian's. Not to mention that the whole case was extremely 'unsafe', namely picking on other media is not an easy way to get published, it's likely to be met with counter-claims and serious aggression.

That's not to belittle the Telegraph's work at all, credit to them - but in comparison to the Murdoch press, and the press in general, politicians are a very soft target. More to the point most of the expenses stuff will have been a matter of public record - yes, still a lot of data crunching but all of it from publicly available sources - electoral registers, the register of interests, maybe talking to family, friends, neighbours etc who would all have been easier to find, and against targets who can't afford to throw lawyers at you in the way Murdoch can.

It remains the paper most likely to give you 'the truth'. As a rule, it receives among the fewest complaints to the PCC, utterly dwarfed in terms of complaints by the Murdoch stable, which are in turn dwarfed in terms of complaints by the leading peddler of untruth and distortion in Britain - The Daily Mail, and while it's sports section is well worthy of contempt in my view - it's a total betrayal of what the paper is supposed to stand for, and it's absurd that they don't hold the whole section to the kind of standard that David Conn sets - the investigation into phone hacking deserves a lot better than to be damned with faint praise, and a suggestion that plenty of other papers are doing that kind of thing because they simply aren't, no other paper would have taken on such an investigation, and no other paper has come out with something like this for a long time. One paper effectively bringing down another paper through investigative journalism is pretty much unheard of, certainly in this country, as far as I know. Let alone a title as huge and profitable and powerfully backed as the NOTW.

boss post seb.

still daniel taylor is a massive bell end.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #327 on: March 6, 2012, 06:57:54 PM »
OK here is the thing. The editorial line over the recent issue at the Guardian traduced this club and was vituperative, one eyed, blind and fanatical. Much more so than any criticism that has been made towards it here. All those offended by anything less than a reverential consideration of this holy newspaper should spare your energy defending them here, and pen letters to the Guardian itself and take issue with their line, as loyal Guardian readers yourself.

Only one problem - you're likely to be either censored for criticising them, or ignored altogether. And thats the problem.

Also, don't be so touchy.
They printed an entire column in their editorial 'right to reply' type section in which the reader's editor addressed the Suarez coverage. I'd be surprised if they actually did censor that media-frames guy. It happened to me before and then it turned out I'd written a post which could have been taken as libellous, though it seemed perfectly fine to me. Though if they did remove a perfectly reasonable post that's pretty disgusting - but it's not something they make a habit of. Unlike other newspapers, their letters page does reflect the proportion of correspondence they get on a given issue, whereas the Mail, for example, very obviously pick and chose to print things to follow their line, and continually censor their online comments - I don't think I've ever had a post shown on their site, though I've written a fair few, and only had one removed from the Guardian, and that for good reason.

That said, the reader's editor's response was fairly mealy-mouthed bullshit which didn't address the real issues, and many of their journos and contributors (I'm looking at you Barry Glenndenning) come across as right pricks on the paper, scoffing at the very idea that the Guardian could ever get anything wrong and be anything less than irreproachable objective at all times (even when the article is yet another steaming pile of shite Blue Wilson hatchet job), and yeah, their football coverage is utter shit. You're certainly likely to be ignored or given a bullshit answer if you send them a reasonable critical letter, but I think it's highly unlikely you'll actually get censored, and I would ask them their reasons for removing that post before condemning them, because the chances are they were actually reasonable.

Wierd to find myself defending the Guardian on here though, I'm usually very critical of them precisely because they purport to be so much more, yet don't seem to have a problem with their sports section often being more tabloid shitey than the tabloids themselves, with the likes of Hayward and Williams often writing with an air of pomposity and condescension that you simply couldn't get away with in the 'popular' press. Not quite as bad as Lawton off the Indy, but that same habit of doing purely opinion based drivel which is easily shown as bullshit by any sort of actual research, but making sure to use as many long words as possible culled from the ever indispensible thesaurus on their desk.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #328 on: March 6, 2012, 06:59:42 PM »
boss post seb.

still daniel taylor is a massive bell end.
Yes, colossal. It's a wonder he can work upright, so massive a bell-end is he. He's even got the trademark oh-so-punchable smug expression in his photo now, it's even more punchable than Williams' by line photo, and that in turn is even more punchable than your average Tory MP's face.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #329 on: March 6, 2012, 07:00:43 PM »
Never mind, I'm sure you're much funnier in real life.

I'm being serious bro!


"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #330 on: March 6, 2012, 07:04:13 PM »
Wierd to find myself defending the Guardian on here though

Then don't! They don't need defending. What needed defending is our club, and Kenny, from their viscious, hysterical shithouse-ness, that was endemic and absolute.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline careca

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #331 on: March 6, 2012, 07:19:35 PM »
Taylor can be a massive bell, the rest ain't too bad. They did the Suarez incident to death but I think I'm correct in saying the majority of them started their journalistic careers on the tabloids... Can't wait until they get round to exposing their earlier errors.
Keeping the faith

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #332 on: March 6, 2012, 07:20:51 PM »
Then don't! They don't need defending. What needed defending is our club, and Kenny, from their viscious, hysterical shithouse-ness, that was endemic and absolute.
Yes and no. They've received plenty of letters Re: Suarez and responded in a bullshit way. By all means people can send more critical letters, I have about other things in the past, though the Suarez thing is so entrenched they aren't going to change. So definitely we need to defend ourselves, or rather in my view we need to defend ourselves and Suarez by taking it to appeal if only to get our side across, whether it could change the sentence or not. But we didn't. As a club in my view we've taken the wrong step at every point. Finally the Guardian throws a shit-covered bone with a decent article about him. That whole scenario was fucked and the Guardian were right at the head of the witch-hunt, so far below what their standards should be it's embarrassing, and they haven't even made an effort to see why. Fuck it, I bet none of them ever even read the full report.

But on the flip side it's true to say that the Guardian is the only real newspaper left. For all it's pomposity, self-righteousness and twatty upper-middle-class-ness, for all the aspirational nausea inducing bullshit in their mags and lifestyle sections, it is the only newspaper in this country that still sees the actual truth as an important thing. It's the only newspaper that attempts to put facts before money (note even their transfer news are much more accurate than any other papers, since they actually seem to wait for a proper source to give them information rather than just recirculating internet rumours). So if we collectively lump the Guardian in with all the other newspapers, if people stop buying it, if people stop seeing what makes it different, then it dies.

When it dies, there is nothing left. Only profit rags run by profiteers for personal gain, mostly monetary, to an extent politically. We are left with literally no newspaper at all giving space and consideration to left-wing analysis, to more radical ideas. Say goodbye to the likes of Seamus Milne and Monbiot. You won't be seeing anyone like them again - one a genuine older school socialist, the other a green (but not hippy green, he has his own ideas that make him unpopular with many greens) who continually writes articles challenging and exposing big business lies and hypocracy, journalists who have the courage, belief and research to go against the mainstream view on any given issue.

Lose the Guardian, and the only voices left will be small smattering of centerist views, held hostage by a need for profit (The Indy and occasional bits of The Times and Mirror), while everything else is the screech of right wing reactionism. No-one left to challenge the likes of the mail. No-one left in the mainstream to expose government lies from the right wing. That would be a terrible thing indeed, and that's why I keep on buying it, even if it does piss me off a great deal.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #333 on: March 6, 2012, 07:44:07 PM »

Oh brother.

Seriously, if the Guardian dies it won't be because of some Liverpool fans calling them out as shithouses, it'll be because of their bad business model, their inefficiency, the losses they sustain being in the tens and tens and tens of millions and hanging on only by the skin of their auto trader, the collapse of the newspaper market, the paradigm shift that the internet and digital technology has caused. If they go to the wall it'll be their own fault, nobody elses. I don't see what that has to do with us, anyway, its not like its anything other than a visceral expression of retribution agains them by some Reds on a message board following their shithouse  snide against our club and Kenny in particular.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #334 on: March 6, 2012, 07:59:34 PM »
Oh brother.

Seriously, if the Guardian dies it won't be because of some Liverpool fans calling them out as shithouses, it'll be because of their bad business model, their inefficiency, the losses they sustain being in the tens and tens and tens of millions and hanging on only by the skin of their auto trader, the collapse of the newspaper market, the paradigm shift that the internet and digital technology has caused. If they go to the wall it'll be their own fault, nobody elses. I don't see what that has to do with us, anyway, its not like its anything other than a visceral expression of retribution agains them by some Reds on a message board following their shithouse  snide against our club and Kenny in particular.
That's the wrong way of looking at it. No of course it won't just be Liverpool fans, but it would be nice if people were aware of what a profit driven media actually means, what a 'successful' newspaper in those terms actually looks like at the moment (The Sun or the Daily Mail), and then if people asked themselves if that's really what they want their media to be.

Because it seems that's what you're saying: "Let the market decide." Well, there's plenty who want that to happen, and the market will decide. It will decide to have The Sun/The Daily Mail/Sky as the template for every paper you read, radio show you listen to, TV show you watch, film you go and see etc etc.

The fact that the Guardian is the only fairly consistent source of genuine journalism left is what makes it valuable. A 'successful' newspaper would never, in a billion years, have approved and funded a risky, expensive and extremely uncertain investigation like the phone hacking won. If the market wins an ultimate victory over the media, then we all lose.

What does this have to do with 'us' ? Well, what do you think it could mean to us that there is one newspaper out there that makes some attempt to defend the interests of people like 'us', and what do you think it would mean if that newspaper is no longer there? Who, then, will be left to listen to 'us' and to fight for 'us'? Because, flawed and pompous and wanky as it is, The Guardian is basically all we have. Them and the odd blogger. Now that's a horrible situation as it is, but it will be worse if The Guardian goes under, it really will.

By people like 'us' I don't mean Liverpool football club and supporting it either. I mean ordinary people in ordinary jobs. I mean working class people, middle class people, people who are wealthy but feel a certain duty of care to those with less than themselves. The '99%' if you like. I mean people who do have a bit of a struggle to make ends meet, people who maybe rely on or believe in a certain amount of state support to live decent lives. People who believe in compassion, in helping other people. As far as the media goes, there really is only The Guardian who does it consistently, then that's it. No-one left, not on TV, not on the Radio, not in the press, because the BBC doesn't do it, can't do it, and the commercial media certainly fucking don't and won't.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 08:03:22 PM by hesbighesred »

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #335 on: March 6, 2012, 08:14:36 PM »

Because it seems that's what you're saying: "Let the market decide."

Nah, I'm saying the Guardian's fate has nothing to do with calling them shithouses for their horrible bastard act over us.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #336 on: March 6, 2012, 08:16:57 PM »
Nah, I'm saying the Guardian's fate has nothing to do with calling them shithouses for their horrible bastard act over us.

"...it'll be because of their bad business model, their inefficiency, the losses they sustain being in the tens and tens and tens of millions and hanging on only by the skin of their auto trader, the collapse of the newspaper market, the paradigm shift that the internet and digital technology has caused. If they go to the wall it'll be their own fault, nobody elses."

Their 'inefficient business model' is what brought down the NOTW.

Though by all means they are twats over the Suarez affair, absolutely no doubt about that whatsoever. I still think they're worth defending though, well, obviously, since that's what I'm doing.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 08:19:03 PM by hesbighesred »

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #337 on: March 6, 2012, 08:21:12 PM »
"...it'll be because of their bad business model, their inefficiency, the losses they sustain being in the tens and tens and tens of millions and hanging on only by the skin of their auto trader, the collapse of the newspaper market, the paradigm shift that the internet and digital technology has caused. If they go to the wall it'll be their own fault, nobody elses."

Mate, the facts is the facts. If they go to the wall it'll be because they're not earning enough money, or their losses are too great for their current subsidy the Auto Trader to sustain. It won't be because some Reds on a message board cussed them down for their editorial line towards us.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #338 on: March 6, 2012, 08:38:04 PM »
Mate, the facts is the facts. If they go to the wall it'll be because they're not earning enough money, or their losses are too great for their current subsidy the Auto Trader to sustain. It won't be because some Reds on a message board cussed them down for their editorial line towards us.
Yes, I never said it would be because of reds, more that it would be nice if people realised what it would mean if they did disappear. Which would indeed be because they don't make enough money. But that's my point - one of the reasons they don't make money is they fund expensive investigations which may or may not come off for a relatively niche news market. Sadly in this world it's hard to make money while having some degree of integrity. News-wise, The Guardian still retains a degree of integrity. If they go then all we have left is newspapers that exist to make money, news outlets that exist to make money, in other words, commercial products which don't offer real news at all, and the BBC. That would be a real shame, that's all I'm trying to say.

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #339 on: March 6, 2012, 08:43:58 PM »
It is because the Guardian's reputation for investigative journalism is so high that I was flabbergasted by their reporting of not just the Suarez incident from start to finish but the aftermath with its championing of Gloria Hyatt (?) ramblings. They kept the pot boiling with innuendo and held a sneering tone throughout. Where was their balance and sense of justice?It was as if their sports desk was in another building or subbed via another newspaper.

And then we had Taylor, what a fucking gobshite he is. Notwithstanding his well documented hatred of Liverpool football club, he was being constantly briefed by United while railing at the club for being profligate in their briefing of the media ignoring an FA directive to keep shtum. It sums up what a dickhead he is when he inadvertantly revealed in the article that United were 'privately furious' about Liverpool's indiscretions!

The whole sorry saga prompted me for the first time to consider its original title, The Manchester Guardian. So much so I cancelled my subscription after nigh on 30 years of reading it. I am also seriously contemplating binning off my Observer subs now Taylor has become a regular contributor. I used to laugh at Paul Wilson's constant little snipes at the club being a confirmed bluenose(to me in correspondence) because it was without malice but I loved his writing style and his ability to inform rather than pontificate. That snivelling little toad seems to have taken his mantle and I see Wilson now hacking round reporting on games rather than his weekly piece which was something to look forward too.

Fuck knows where The Guardian/Observer go from here. Down the pan I foresee along with many other titles over the next few years as the populace demand their news instantly with a headline and a paragraph for their 'informed' opinion. As a newspaper group that will be a shame. The irony is that their last big splash in exposing corruption and phone hacking at News International which will surely lead to new independent regulation of their profession and they might not be around to see it implemented.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 08:46:12 PM by vivabobbygraham »
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Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #340 on: March 6, 2012, 08:50:27 PM »
That would be a real shame, that's all I'm trying to say.

If it'll be a shame it'll be their own fault. Every newspaper is losing money now anyway.

Will they go down? I doubt it. What might happen is that they'll just become like The Huffington Post with the 'Guardian' brand. An internet aggregator site, using bloggers to generate their content and hits and ad revenue, with enough money coming in to keep the Hampstead luvvies that write for them in comfort whilst they maintain a bare minimum journalistic remit. News reporting will all be outsourced to AP and Reuters, it already is.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #341 on: March 6, 2012, 08:51:59 PM »
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #342 on: March 6, 2012, 09:02:20 PM »
It sums up what a dickhead he is when he inadvertantly revealed in the article that United were 'privately furious' about Liverpool's indiscretions!

haha yeah bobby, I missed that one. He really is the ultimate snide c*nt that one.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #343 on: March 6, 2012, 09:06:46 PM »
haha yeah bobby, I missed that one. He really is the ultimate snide c*nt that one.

And now he's a regular on The Observer, the paper I read cover to cover over the week. Put's me off me bacon and egg mate.
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Offline Stussy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #344 on: March 6, 2012, 09:48:33 PM »

Loathsome smarmy little shit eater he is.

"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea. He wanted to conquer the bloody world. I wanted Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #345 on: March 6, 2012, 09:58:04 PM »
Couldn't find another place to post this, but wanted to get it off my chest. Is it just me or has the Guardian become an absolute load of pigshite recently? Aside from the foreign or freelance journalists they bring in (Cox, Wilson, Honigstein, Lowe etc.) and the might that is James Richardson, the collection of journalists at the paper seem astoundingly poor at the moment. Really rubbing off on the usually excellent football weekly pod as well, which is absolutely awful compared with recent seasons.

yup, used to enjoy reading their website but its fucking terrible bar the ones mentioned. just a bunch of smug twats who think they are the bollocks because they work for the guardian.

oh, and daniel taylor is a c*nt. needs to be made as a banner for europe next season

Offline Percito

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #346 on: March 6, 2012, 10:08:24 PM »
Yes, I never said it would be because of reds, more that it would be nice if people realised what it would mean if they did disappear. Which would indeed be because they don't make enough money. But that's my point - one of the reasons they don't make money is they fund expensive investigations which may or may not come off for a relatively niche news market. Sadly in this world it's hard to make money while having some degree of integrity. News-wise, The Guardian still retains a degree of integrity. If they go then all we have left is newspapers that exist to make money, news outlets that exist to make money, in other words, commercial products which don't offer real news at all, and the BBC. That would be a real shame, that's all I'm trying to say.

I'd be more than happy with the Graun if the only thing that remained of it was the reporting and investigative journalism, and if the loathsome columnists, Comment Is Free pundits, and pinko guest writers went to the wall. The whole sports section as well. It's betrayed the Left by wholeheartedly embracing Blairism, Polly Toynbee-ism and identity politics/political correctness as a substitute for class and economic analysis.

Offline JCM

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #347 on: March 6, 2012, 10:35:27 PM »
I've been reading the Guardian for nearly thirty years and after reading some posts on here tonight I have a question to ask, and its a genuine one.  If, as a lot of people on here think, the Guardian is a newspaper of the highest journalistic qualities, a paper full of well educated, caring, passionate, articulate and honest writers, then why do they constantly attack every aspect and characteristic of one particular city, its people and their football club, in a manner reaking of hostility and condecension on a regular basis. 

What is their motive.  You see, if we were under attack from the screaming red tops, then I would still sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing that a proper newspaper would have no real reason to do it - but they do.  Its the fact that they are so educated, articulate and well connected that saddens and angers me.  Untill someone can answer this question I shall refuse to use it. 
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Offline Percito

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #348 on: March 6, 2012, 10:43:04 PM »
I've been reading the Guardian for nearly thirty years and after reading some posts on here tonight I have a question to ask, and its a genuine one.  If, as a lot of people on here think, the Guardian is a newspaper of the highest journalistic qualities, a paper full of well educated, caring, passionate, articulate and honest writers, then why do they constantly attack every aspect and characteristic of one particular city, its people and their football club, in a manner reaking of hostility and condecension on a regular basis. 

What is their motive.  You see, if we were under attack from the screaming red tops, then I would still sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing that a proper newspaper would have no real reason to do it - but they do.  Its the fact that they are so educated, articulate and well connected that saddens and angers me.  Untill someone can answer this question I shall refuse to use it.

They're slimy metropolitan liberals wielding overrated degrees in English from Oxbridge and UCL. They constantly condescend to Liverpool as a city because they don't consider it multicultural enough and because the only Michelin-starred restaurant is over in Birkenhead and because its an 'old Labour' place rather than a Polly Toynbee/Laurie Penny hub of political correctness and Diversity. Does any of that answer your question...?

Offline dernaroy

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #349 on: March 6, 2012, 10:45:02 PM »
I've been reading the Guardian for nearly thirty years and after reading some posts on here tonight I have a question to ask, and its a genuine one.  If, as a lot of people on here think, the Guardian is a newspaper of the highest journalistic qualities, a paper full of well educated, caring, passionate, articulate and honest writers, then why do they constantly attack every aspect and characteristic of one particular city, its people and their football club, in a manner reaking of hostility and condecension on a regular basis. 

What is their motive.  You see, if we were under attack from the screaming red tops, then I would still sleep soundly in my bed at night knowing that a proper newspaper would have no real reason to do it - but they do.  Its the fact that they are so educated, articulate and well connected that saddens and angers me.  Untill someone can answer this question I shall refuse to use it.

Are you suggesting they attack the city and people of Liverpool in the news section outside of football stories? I have to say I would need you to point to examples of this.
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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #350 on: March 6, 2012, 10:50:57 PM »
Are you suggesting they attack the city and people of Liverpool in the news section outside of football stories? I have to say I would need you to point to examples of this.


Yup. A lot of wind in here about the paper in question. Their football coverage can be po faced and occasionally baleful but they also seem to have a sense of humour on there somewhere. I still get the Fiver every day to my inbox and while they do rip the shit out of LFC, they do it to pretty much every other club going and it's funny then. And many of the same football writers are on the podcast, which I like, even if I sometimes want to scream at them. Sid Lowe is a fine example, writes well and knows his onions, and he seems like a decent bloke from the podcasts.

As for criticism of the rest of the paper, I'm not having much of that. Admittedly, they're at my end of the spectrum, politics wise, but I'm not aware of any particular bias against Liverpool, and that's from a fairly objective OOC.

Offline Owenjg77

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #351 on: March 6, 2012, 11:03:32 PM »
Can anybody put up the twitter user names of the guardian writer worth following?

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #352 on: March 6, 2012, 11:18:25 PM »
Can anybody put up the twitter user names of the guardian writer worth following?

Everyone will think differently, of course, but for me the following are worth following:

@sidlowe
@honigstein
@zonal_marking
@barneyronay
@paolo_bandini
@jonawils
@greggroughley
@david_conn

There are others whose writing I usually enjoy but who don't offer much, if anything, on Twitter.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 11:20:32 PM by SalisburyRed »

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #353 on: March 6, 2012, 11:39:08 PM »
I'd be more than happy with the Graun if the only thing that remained of it was the reporting and investigative journalism, and if the loathsome columnists, Comment Is Free pundits, and pinko guest writers went to the wall. The whole sports section as well. It's betrayed the Left by wholeheartedly embracing Blairism, Polly Toynbee-ism and identity politics/political correctness as a substitute for class and economic analysis.
To be fair to the columnists...what about Monbiot? Milne? Marina Hyde? Most of the female ones are pretty good as well. Also, as much as Toynbee can get on my tits, when she's god she's well worth a read. Hutton knows his stuff too, though I'm not a big fan. Still, I like Monbiot, Milne and Hyde a heck of a lot. They still do the occasional really worthwhile longer investigative piece in G2 as well - there was one not so long ago about the Burkha ban in France which I thought was excellent.

I take your point, but it's still the best, or rather the only, mainstream paper we have.
I've been reading the Guardian for nearly thirty years and after reading some posts on here tonight I have a question to ask, and its a genuine one.  If, as a lot of people on here think, the Guardian is a newspaper of the highest journalistic qualities, a paper full of well educated, caring, passionate, articulate and honest writers, then why do they constantly attack every aspect and characteristic of one particular city, its people and their football club, in a manner reaking of hostility and condecension on a regular basis. 
I've been defending them on here, but I doubt even their biggest fans think that of the paper. A lot of their writers are utter pricks. Many are tedious mainstream pseudo intellectual mouthpieces - like Simon Jenkins or Toynbee when anyone else bar the Tories are in power, and even now she's still quietly beating the 'New Labour' drum. I know that your characterisation of their journos is largely true - I know someone who worked for Guardian Unlimited who put it like this "most of them went to school together yet don't think that's at all wierd," which says a lot.

If this country had a decent press, I wouldn't read them. If The Mirror of the early 70's and 80's still existed, I wouldn't read them. If the Independent had more people like Fisk, or if it had stuck to the type of approach they took after they first went tabloid, I wouldn't read them. I don't read The Guardian because I think it's a wonderful, brilliant Newspaper, I read it because there are literally no alternatives. The Guardian, on a good day, carries a few bits of national and foreign news no-one else will. The odd bits that aren't, as someone else pointed out, just reprinted from AP or Reuters. It might have 2 or even 3 columns worth reading. It has a letters page that for me is nearly always worth reading. Maybe there's something by David Conn, or Hyde, and maybe it's a Monday with Brooker and perhaps even an investigation in the G2. It's not a lot, and it's not worth the money I spend on it, but still, it's all there is. There's no one else even making a half arsed effort to hold the powerful to account, not really. There's nowhere else in the mainstream that gives a platform to the kind of political views expressed by Milne or Monbiot, or even their economics guy (Elliot, something like that?). In terms of daily press, of papers which still have some degree of power to shape opinion and affect change, they really are all that's left.

That the situation is like that is the real tragedy. If we had a number of real newspapers in the country then I wouldn't give a fuck about The Guardian. A hungry person eats the food that's available - I do love to read, I like the format of a newspaper, and in those terms the Guardian is the equivalent of finding a chocolate bar I don't mind (even if I don't really like it) among a bunch of other ones that are either repugnant or out of date.

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #354 on: March 6, 2012, 11:43:18 PM »
Are you suggesting they attack the city and people of Liverpool in the news section outside of football stories? I have to say I would need you to point to examples of this.
Agree with this as well. No doubt, for me, about the bias in the sports section, but other than the occasional tedious scouse stereotype joke (and I don't find you see more of them then other tedious national or regional stereotype jokes, apart from, surprise surprise, tedious stereotype jokes about metropolitan champagne socialist types) I've never thought of their news section as biased beyond the kind of things that are typical in the modern media, and there, while they are certainly guilty, they are less guilty than the rest.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #355 on: March 6, 2012, 11:47:42 PM »
Add to your list above Jonathan Wilson, occasionally Barney Ronay (because he's usually taking the piss) and James Richardson. Everyone else is fucking awful. The pits. Shocking garbage. Some of the smug fucking fools they have on Football Extra defy believe. And, as someone said above, then there's Daniel Taylor.

Yeah I completely forgot about Wilson. Oh and David Conn

Offline Percito

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #356 on: March 7, 2012, 12:03:37 AM »
Agree with this as well. No doubt, for me, about the bias in the sports section, but other than the occasional tedious scouse stereotype joke (and I don't find you see more of them then other tedious national or regional stereotype jokes, apart from, surprise surprise, tedious stereotype jokes about metropolitan champagne socialist types) I've never thought of their news section as biased beyond the kind of things that are typical in the modern media, and there, while they are certainly guilty, they are less guilty than the rest.

The 'champagne socialist' thing is one of the most accurate 'stereotypes' I've ever come across, in connection with absolutely any ethnic, regional, social or class group. It's incredibly spot-on. Have you ever been to Islington or Hampstead? What nests of almsot exclusive cuntery those places are...

Offline NotBeenInAigburthSince2008

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #357 on: March 7, 2012, 09:35:17 AM »
I think yesterday's crossword was an attempt at making it up to us. Answers included Liverpool, Paisley, Rush, Marsh, Venison, Burrows, Kennedy, Crouch and (oddly) Parry while Dalglish was mentioned in one of the clues.

Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #358 on: March 7, 2012, 11:23:21 AM »
Recently reading some of Taylors reports especially the 'Dalglish plays dumb' one just made me lose all faith in newspaper journalism as a whole. Itís only when you know the facts of a story that is reported that you can see the mindless bias drivel and absolute shit, assumptions and blatant lies that are made just to try and twist and cause vilification in a report. How many other reports have I read by so called respected journalists that, were I have no background knowledge of a story, has been twisted beyond belief to make me believe something is right when it is so so wrong.

It has only backed up my assumptions that no matter what sheet they try and hide behind in the end they all exist at various times to twist, embellish and lie to create a story, that will eventually sell papers as it backs up the ignorant mindless views of some of their readers. When it comes to sports reporting at the very least, red top and broad sheets all boil down to the same.

I bought my last newspaper a while back and there's not a chance I will pick one up again anytime soon.

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Re: Thank you Guardian.
« Reply #359 on: March 7, 2012, 12:13:48 PM »
To be fair to the columnists...what about Monbiot? Milne? Marina Hyde? Most of the female ones are pretty good as well. Also, as much as Toynbee can get on my tits, when she's god she's well worth a read. Hutton knows his stuff too, though I'm not a big fan. Still, I like Monbiot, Milne and Hyde a heck of a lot. They still do the occasional really worthwhile longer investigative piece in G2 as well - there was one not so long ago about the Burkha ban in France which I thought was excellent.

Zoe Williams is excellent. Incredibly intelligent.