Topic: Reality Check

[Riedles Reds]

The negativity on here is unreal. So far we have played Arsenal at home, Man City away & Man Utd away as well as Birmingham away who have not lost at home since last September I think. The only game we were expected to win was v West Brom which we won.

We deserved to beat Arsenal, were soundly beaten by City, although I think Mascherano could take some of the blame for a potential last minute change in gameplan. We drew away at Birmingham, and lost to Man Utd despite scoring 2 goals at Old Trafford. So our record so far stands at Won 1, Drew 2 and Lost 2. This is the hardest start to a season I can remember. The only way it could have been harder is if instead of playing West Brom we had to play Chelsea.

But what has annoyed me the most is the attitude of fans towards the performance yesterday. Four players in that team were new signings who had played at most 90 minutes of football with the rest of the team. I personally thought that all four of these players, Cole, Poulsen, Meireles & Konchesky gave good performances. The team limited Utd to one clear cut chance from Nani. Second half it was again a similar story, few chances either way. The difference in my opinion was Berbatov, fair play to him, he had a great game. In the end we probably deserved to lose, but only just. But judging by some of the comments of fellow reds in the media and on here its as if we lost 9-2. I thought Liverpool at times yesterday played some very good one touch football in the middle without getting the ball to Torres often enough, but second half that changed, and for 20 minutes of the second half we had United penned back. I honestly think that all of Hodgsons signings so far have looked good in terms of the jobs they do, Meireles especially who looks a quality player.

I believe that given time we have the basis of a good team there. So get off the managers and the teams back and give them a chance. Judge them after 15 - 20 games by which time I believe we will be around 6th pushing up close for the top four. We are three points behind Spurs and maybe five behind City, and quite frankly, they ain't played anyone yet so lets have some positive comments for once.

I think we may have a decent season this year.

[Breitner]

Amen brother. Good to see a bit of positivity.

[Les Willis]

Agree with the OP. We need to give this team time to settle. It's one knee-jerk thread after another on here sometimes.

[drpepe]

agree that the negativity is verging on the ridiculous at times, but there are so many reasons to be pissed off at the moment. The Rafa hangover will fade but it needs time. If there was more positives to see on the pitch or in the board room this would have happened a lot quicker imo

In terms of our games, no excuses:

our record so far stands at Won 1, Drew 2 and Lost 2.

we need more from our players and more from our coaching staff - it is clear that they are underperforming, they need to realise how important it is now to give the whole club/supporters a lift the only way they can

[sinnermichael]

good post. the next 5 games in the league are all winnable imo. sunderland, blackpool ,everton, blackburn and bolton.

[xabi rules]

More time is needed to make a proper assessment but Good Lord we are brutal at the moment.

[AlphaDelta]

Well said, you cant expect the new lads to hit the ground running, saying that Cole and Raul look pretty decent.

People hark on saying it's our worst start in 18 years, but if we would have had played the same fixtures as Chelsea have, you would see a vast difference!

[has gone odd]

i think a lot of the negativity derives from the performance on the pitch as much as the actual results.

our negative play, often snail paced combined with lack of flair and attacking are causing great concern, quite rightly to.

[The Jackal]

We've had a difficult start to teh campaign in terms of fixtures - that much is true. But if you're happy with the performance yesterday, or indeed any of our League performances so far this season, then we must be watching very different matches.

I don't think people are pissed off so much with the results. As you say - 3 aways (including 2 very good teams in ManU and City and a hard to beat team in Birmingham) and a tough home match against Arsenal, as well a the West Brom match - which as you pointed out, we won.

However in none of these matches - including the West brom match, have we assered ourselves or looked to control the game (even against West Brom). If we'd arrived at this set of results by playing good, positive football, and trying to control the games and simply been unlucky, then I'd have les of a problem accepting the results. As it is, we haven't been unlucky, we've been poor.

[Les Willis]

We've had a difficult start to teh campaign in terms of fixtures - that much is true. But if you're happy with the performance yesterday, or indeed any of our League performances so far this season, then we must be watching very different matches.

I don't think people are pissed off so much with the results. As you say - 3 aways (including 2 very good teams in ManU and City and a hard to beat team in Birmingham) and a tough home match against Arsenal, as well a the West Brom match - which as you pointed out, we won.

However in none of these matches - including the West brom match, have we assered ourselves or looked to control the game (even against West Brom). If we'd arrived at this set of results by playing good, positive football, and trying to control the games and simply been unlucky, then I'd have les of a problem accepting the results. As it is, we haven't been unlucky, we've been poor.

Weren't we saying the same thing last season though?

[Chakan]

Weren't we saying the same thing last season though?

You were happy with last season?

See this is what is getting to me..... all of a sudden last season is something to be compared to. LAST SEASON SUCKED! It was not good enough. All of a sudden its ok.

[WaltonRed]

The OP cannot have it both ways though.

Because if you are going to say that we deserved to win at Arsenal despite getting a draw (which is actually debateable given our first half performance), then you also have to say that in all honesty we deserved to draw against WBA and lose to Birmingham. 

We have played 5 matches in the league this season and in all of them we have been second best for long stretches of the game, and outplayed in midfield.  No matter how positive you want to be, the truth is we have been pretty shite so far this season.

[Les Willis]

You were happy with last season?

See this is what is getting to me..... all of a sudden last season is something to be compared to. LAST SEASON SUCKED! It was not good enough. All of a sudden its ok.

No that was my point. We might be shite this season, but we were equally shite last season too. This is something a lot of posters tend to overlook in their bid to bash Roy.

[minusone]

Reality check?

We've got fucked owners intent on ruining us, we have no money, no new stadium, we're selling more than buying, we're not in the CL, our stars don't give a fuck and want out, we're playing like shite, we score goals at random not from dominating, we're made to look shit by crap teams, the media got shut of the best manager we had in years, the Mancs are playing shite but still winning, and Chelsea are posting rugby scores for the fucking fun of it.

To top it all off, half of our fans think the situation is just fucking peachy because the ex-player pundits said an English manager, man-to-man marking and some good old 4-4-2 will sort it all out.

I'm sorry, but i don't feel too chippy at the moment old bean, and drawing brightly coloured rainbows over the problem isn't going to fix our situation now is it?

We need less tolerance of the situation and more demanding to know what the fuck is going on.

[The Jackal]

Weren't we saying the same thing last season though?

by the end, maybe. certainly not at the start.

[AndrewLFC_1971]

Reality check?

We've got fucked owners intent on ruining us, we have no money, no new stadium, we're selling more than buying, we're not in the CL, our stars don't give a fuck and want out, we're playing like shite, we score goals at random not from dominating, we're made to look shit by crap teams, the media got shut of the best manager we had in years, the Mancs are playing shite but still winning, and Chelsea are posting rugby scores for the fucking fun of it.

To top it all off, half of our fans think the situation is just fucking peachy because the ex-player pundits said an English manager, man-to-man marking and some good old 4-4-2 will sort it all out.

I'm sorry, but i don't feel too chippy at the moment old bean, and drawing brightly coloured rainbows over the problem isn't going to fix our situation now is it?

We need less tolerance of the situation and more demanding to know what the fuck is going on.

We need to rid the club of our owners, that is the only issue right now.

[imissrafa]

Reality check?

We've got fucked owners intent on ruining us, we have no money, no new stadium, we're selling more than buying, we're not in the CL, our stars don't give a fuck and want out, we're playing like shite, we score goals at random not from dominating, we're made to look shit by crap teams, the media got shut of the best manager we had in years, the Mancs are playing shite but still winning, and Chelsea are posting rugby scores for the fucking fun of it.

To top it all off, half of our fans think the situation is just fucking peachy because the ex-player pundits said an English manager, man-to-man marking and some good old 4-4-2 will sort it all out.

I'm sorry, but i don't feel too chippy at the moment old bean, and drawing brightly coloured rainbows over the problem isn't going to fix our situation now is it?

We need less tolerance of the situation and more demanding to know what the fuck is going on.

 

a reality check from the op but not one mention of the ownership! 

[Art Vandelay]

It's not the results on their own that are worrying....it's the way we're tactically set up in those games that's of concern.  When it became clear Roy was to become the next Liverpool manager, people looked back at how he set up the Fulham side....a deep defence, direct balls, no pressure when the opposition has the ball etc...  A lot thought "Liverpool are a different side, with better players....he'll play differently with Gerrard and Torres at his disposal...", but so far (and to be fair, it's only been a few games) we look like a carbon copy of his Fulham side.  We don't look like scoring, and we look like we're going to conceed at any minute.

The question is, is the five or ten minute spell we had yesterday where we looked competent Roy's ultimate tactical aim for the side.  At least we'd be slightly dangerous, and though I doubt the football would be much fun to watch we'd win a few games....or is the other 75 minutes of play the style that Roy actually prefers, because we'll struggle to finish top half playing like that.

[Riedles Reds]

Reality check?

We've got fucked owners intent on ruining us, we have no money, no new stadium, we're selling more than buying, we're not in the CL, our stars don't give a fuck and want out, we're playing like shite, we score goals at random not from dominating, we're made to look shit by crap teams, the media got shut of the best manager we had in years, the Mancs are playing shite but still winning, and Chelsea are posting rugby scores for the fucking fun of it.

To top it all off, half of our fans think the situation is just fucking peachy because the ex-player pundits said an English manager, man-to-man marking and some good old 4-4-2 will sort it all out.

I'm sorry, but i don't feel too chippy at the moment old bean, and drawing brightly coloured rainbows over the problem isn't going to fix our situation now is it?

We need less tolerance of the situation and more demanding to know what the fuck is going on.

I understand and agree with some of what your saying. What I'm trying to say is that we have the basis of a good team and we need to back the team on the pitch. The ownership situation is a disaster and that deserves to be attacked and we all have every right to be angry but the team AND THE MANAGER ESPECIALLY are being tarnished with the same brush as something to attack, they need are backing if we are to get better. But as you rightly say we need to attack and address the ownership.

[minusone]

I understand and agree with some of what your saying. What I'm trying to say is that we have the basis of a good team and we need to back the team on the pitch. The ownership situation is a disaster and that deserves to be attacked and we all have every right to be angry but the team AND THE MANAGER ESPECIALLY are being tarnished with the same brush as something to attack, they need are backing if we are to get better. But as you rightly say we need to attack and address the ownership.

I would love to be able to get the team performing as a result of our support.

But i tell you what... if one of the scouse lads in the team, not mentioning any names, scored a goal, and did a Fowler with a tshirt underneath that said "TOM & GEORGE NOT WELCOME" or "STANDARDS CORRUPTED" - yeah he'd get a fine worth 10 minutes of his time, but how absolutely fucking mental would the entire fan base go?

The Kop would look like a brothel on 2-for-1 night and every single fan around the world would have a clear rallying point.
Then my friend, we would see some serious fucking support behind the team.

[Fitzy.]

If the OP hadn't started this thread, I would've been tempted.

I saw a shaky Liverpool yesterday but you'd have thought we were beaten 4-0. I feel the reaction was more about the general state of things rather than the 90 minutes on the pitch.

[xabi rules]

No that was my point. We might be shite this season, but we were equally shite last season too. This is something a lot of posters tend to overlook in their bid to bash Roy.

Roy was supposed to bring improvement, wasn't he?

[Mark Walters]

I don't think the ownersip situation should have any bearing on what's happening on the pitch THIS season.  Hodgson knew the score before he signed up (and if he didn't he's more stupid than I could have imagined) and should work within those constraints.  The players were good enough last season and perhaps only needed a change of management to reinvigorate them and give them some positivity, confidence, belief.  So far, that has not happened and, apart from a good half at Arsenal, we've looked woeful all over the pitch.

[Riedles Reds]

I would love to be able to get the team performing as a result of our support.

But i tell you what... if one of the scouse lads in the team, not mentioning any names, scored a goal, and did a Fowler with a tshirt underneath that said "TOM & GEORGE NOT WELCOME" or "STANDARDS CORRUPTED" - yeah he'd get a fine worth 10 minutes of his time, but how absolutely fucking mental would the entire fan base go?

The Kop would look like a brothel on 2-for-1 night and every single fan around the world would have a clear rallying point.
Then my friend, we would see some serious fucking support behind the team.

True. I'm sure the lads are as worried as we are about the ownership but the local players we have are top pro's and so probably see their job as being consistent performers giving 110%. They probably feel that if they did that then it would make the club even more unstable. We really are in a Catch 22 situation.

[Regi]

We are brutal at the minute...that's the reality.
No amount of dressing it up can hide the fact that we have been shit.

And more to the point, the greater reality is that this will not change until we have new owners, which should concentrate the minds of those who prefer to cover their ears to that side of things.
Hoping against hope that we will have a good season is both pointless and damaging because it allows the current situatuion, which is desperate, to fester even more and become beyond repair

[Mark Walters]

True. I'm sure the lads are as worried as we are about the ownership but the local players we have are top pro's and so probably see their job as being consistent performers giving 110%. They probably feel that if they did that then it would make the club even more unstable. We really are in a Catch 22 situation.

I think it's more likely they see their job as earning them £250k a month (before tax)

[Les Willis]

I don't think the ownersip situation should have any bearing on what's happening on the pitch THIS season.  Hodgson knew the score before he signed up (and if he didn't he's more stupid than I could have imagined) and should work within those constraints.  The players were good enough last season and perhaps only needed a change of management to reinvigorate them and give them some positivity, confidence, belief.  So far, that has not happened and, apart from a good half at Arsenal, we've looked woeful all over the pitch.

That bit in bold was what I thought too. Maybe our players aren't as good as we think, or maybe they're just getting used to new systems. We should know by Xmas, either way.

[SkinHimHesShite]

the difference here is that we were previously expected to be pushing for a title challenge. nowadays, hanging around in 6th, pushing for 4th is accepted as the best we can hope for. that is a bitter pill to swallow, and will take some getting used to. it seems that some people find it easier to accept than others.

positivity is looking at this situation and saying "its early doors, we've had some tough games, we can still challenge for the league"

the OP is just accepting mediocrity.

[General Alonso]

We are brutal at the minute...that's the reality.
No amount of dressing it up can hide the fact that we have been shit.

And more to the point, the greater reality is that this will not change until we have new owners, which should concentrate the minds of those who prefer to cover their ears to that side of things.
Hoping against hope that we will have a good season is both pointless and damaging because it allows the current situatuion, which is desperate, to fester even more and become beyond repair

I think this is actually overstated when referring to how well the team is playing. West Brom played better football than us; are we saying that man for man they are better than us? We're not going to win the League while the two numbskull parasites have still got their hands around our throat, but, we can still attempt to play good football with the players we've got. It's all down to the coaching and management.

[Crazynumber9]

Reality is we are screwed...we have shite owners, and a manager who is mediocre at best and players who are running around like headless chickens. Explain to me how things can be put into perspective. The day Paul Konchesky walked into our first team you knew we had hit shit creek

[AriGold]

We're going down, sack Roy, sell Glen, Torres doesn't want to be here, Lucas is shit, Konchesky is shit.


Seriously though, good post. We've had very hard fixtures and the team needs to settle with the new players we've brought in. A good win on Saturday could see us get some confidence and start winning games and pick up regular points.

[RK7]

It was always going to take time, if it took Rafa 6 years to build a squad to finish 7th. We cant expect Roy to have instant success, we do need to be realistic. As I have said countless times lets judge at the end of the season when we have played everyone twice and had time to settle.

My biggest worry at the moment is that the players are using the ownership problems as an excuse. I can live with our results on paper so far but the performances have stunk and I dont think it is down to the system or tactics.

[horne]

The negativity on here is unreal. So far we have played Arsenal at home, Man City away & Man Utd away as well as Birmingham away who have not lost at home since last September I think. The only game we were expected to win was v West Brom which we won.

We deserved to beat Arsenal, were soundly beaten by City, although I think Mascherano could take some of the blame for a potential last minute change in gameplan. We drew away at Birmingham, and lost to Man Utd despite scoring 2 goals at Old Trafford. So our record so far stands at Won 1, Drew 2 and Lost 2. This is the hardest start to a season I can remember. The only way it could have been harder is if instead of playing West Brom we had to play Chelsea.

But what has annoyed me the most is the attitude of fans towards the performance yesterday. Four players in that team were new signings who had played at most 90 minutes of football with the rest of the team. I personally thought that all four of these players, Cole, Poulsen, Meireles & Konchesky gave good performances. The team limited Utd to one clear cut chance from Nani. Second half it was again a similar story, few chances either way. The difference in my opinion was Berbatov, fair play to him, he had a great game. In the end we probably deserved to lose, but only just. But judging by some of the comments of fellow reds in the media and on here its as if we lost 9-2. I thought Liverpool at times yesterday played some very good one touch football in the middle without getting the ball to Torres often enough, but second half that changed, and for 20 minutes of the second half we had United penned back. I honestly think that all of Hodgsons signings so far have looked good in terms of the jobs they do, Meireles especially who looks a quality player.

I believe that given time we have the basis of a good team there. So get off the managers and the teams back and give them a chance. Judge them after 15 - 20 games by which time I believe we will be around 6th pushing up close for the top four. We are three points behind Spurs and maybe five behind City, and quite frankly, they ain't played anyone yet so lets have some positive comments for once.

I think we may have a decent season this year.

spot on mate..wellin...i noticed the one touch stuff,and if that becomes a habit,expect us to be winning things in the future.
the other thing that has given me a bit of hope as well recently is the flourish of good young players who are not that far off maturing as well.
not gonna list them as im sure you all know,but the positives are out there if you choose to look for them
last season,i was totaly pissed off with the lack of enrgy effort up front in chasing down the defenders and making it ugly for them
against steua ,there was a lot of closing down further up the pitch from us,and i can see already,before hodgson has his feet under the table,that his ideas are being taken on board.
babel for about the last 5 or 6 games now has made more of an effort and been more effective in doing so.
considering we are almost slashing our wrists as a club at the minute,i dont feel as bad as i thought i would in the circumstances,because i see hope,a chink of light

[Riedles Reds]

the difference here is that we were previously expected to be pushing for a title challenge. nowadays, hanging around in 6th, pushing for 4th is accepted as the best we can hope for. that is a bitter pill to swallow, and will take some getting used to. it seems that some people find it easier to accept than others.

positivity is looking at this situation and saying "its early doors, we've had some tough games, we can still challenge for the league"

the OP is just accepting mediocrity.

I'm not accepting mediocrity. I'm accepting the fact that our owners are bleeding us dry, spending nothing. While other such as Tottenham, Man City & even Villa are outspending and overtaking us and until this is dealt with we cannot expect to push for major honors. I believe Liverpool Football Club can do anything but this season we cannot EXPECT to. The owners must be gotten rid of first.

But despite this I feel Hodgson has made some good signings and is starting to get his methods across. It will be a gradual process but I believe he is doing a decent job and we should back the team. I'm not backing the ownership as others are suggesting.

[Breitner]

We are brutal at the minute...that's the reality.

No we're not. It's been a mixed bag, as you'd expect 5 tough games into a new managers reign, which is the point of the op really. The performance in the week was very encouraging and there were signs yesterday at a traditionally difficult place for us to go that the team is starting to gel. But minds have been made up a long time ago so what's the point.

[Crosby Nick]

We'll only know how good or bad this season may be after the next 5 games. It's all well and good saying what a hard 5 games we've had (and it's true) but we have to make the next 5 count and get a minum of 11 points to have something to cling to.

I agree that we're probably no worse off in points terms than from the equivalent games last season (swapping Baggies for a newly promoted side from last year) but our 'home banker' was anything but and in general none of the other performances have been any better than last year.

[red_dub]

Positivity is needed and we should give people time..

however with the owner situation looming over us and what that can entail coupled with the fact that we have been very poor on the pitch, we are going to be negitive. A couple of convincing wins will change the negetivity a bit but it will not go until we are rid of those cancers....

[nyctex]

the OP is just accepting mediocrity.

I don't think he's accepting mediocrity. He's accepting reality.  It's been a tough start and let's let the season bed in before we all lose our heads.  Wait until Christmas time to judge.

[alan dicko]

If we'd of had Chelsea's start, we'd at least be in the top 4....

OP is pretty much spot on

[SteQuinny]

The negativity on here is unreal. So far we have played Arsenal at home, Man City away & Man Utd away as well as Birmingham away who have not lost at home since last September I think. The only game we were expected to win was v West Brom which we won.

We deserved to beat Arsenal, were soundly beaten by City, although I think Mascherano could take some of the blame for a potential last minute change in gameplan. We drew away at Birmingham, and lost to Man Utd despite scoring 2 goals at Old Trafford. So our record so far stands at Won 1, Drew 2 and Lost 2. This is the hardest start to a season I can remember. The only way it could have been harder is if instead of playing West Brom we had to play Chelsea.

But what has annoyed me the most is the attitude of fans towards the performance yesterday. Four players in that team were new signings who had played at most 90 minutes of football with the rest of the team. I personally thought that all four of these players, Cole, Poulsen, Meireles & Konchesky gave good performances. The team limited Utd to one clear cut chance from Nani. Second half it was again a similar story, few chances either way. The difference in my opinion was Berbatov, fair play to him, he had a great game. In the end we probably deserved to lose, but only just. But judging by some of the comments of fellow reds in the media and on here its as if we lost 9-2. I thought Liverpool at times yesterday played some very good one touch football in the middle without getting the ball to Torres often enough, but second half that changed, and for 20 minutes of the second half we had United penned back. I honestly think that all of Hodgsons signings so far have looked good in terms of the jobs they do, Meireles especially who looks a quality player.

I believe that given time we have the basis of a good team there. So get off the managers and the teams back and give them a chance. Judge them after 15 - 20 games by which time I believe we will be around 6th pushing up close for the top four. We are three points behind Spurs and maybe five behind City, and quite frankly, they ain't played anyone yet so lets have some positive comments for once.

I think we may have a decent season this year.

I'm all for taking the positives out of a bad result, but hoenstly were there any to take out of yesterday's game?

Okay, we have had a tough set of opening fixtures, but the results we have taken from these games isn't good enough, not because of the fact that we have been beaten or drawn, because of the manner in which we have been beaten or drawn.

Arsenal aside we haven't deserved a point this season.

Man City - We were taught a footballing lesson, but a lesson that could have been avoided if better tactics were deployed, why go with two up front when you know that City are going to pack the midfield and overrun us in that area? it seems niaive from a manager who is supposed to be one of the most astute in the league.

West Brom -  Baring a wonderful strike from Torres we were lucky to get three points, in a game that should have been used for shooting practice West Brom will feel that they have been robbed of a well earned point.

Birmingham - Did we have a shot on target? We could have been three down at half time if it wasn't for some truly world class saves by our goalie.

Man Utd - Negative. With how shakey the United back line has been this season you'd expect us to give them a bit more to think about, even after we had drawn level, with two goals coming from the two time we actually went at United, we didn't seem like we wanted to go and win the game, other than picking the ball out of the net twice Van Der Sar had the day off.

We give them far too much respect, where they wanted to go at us with pace, get the ball wide and put us under pressure, we were far too content to play a sideways pass or go back to the keeper. It simply isn't good enough.

I dont know the source of the problem, all I know is that if you have players of the quality we have, but can't even muster a shot on goal in open play then there is a serious problem which needs to be addressed.

We went into the game yesterday like we had never seen United play. It's niaive, surely somebody should sit down, analyze the opponents strengths and weaknesses before putting together a game plan? Does it seem anybody has done this once this season?