Topic: Honest Opinions Please

[kopite@m45]

This is just downright offensive.

[Alucard]

I don't see a problem, it got worldwide attention. The media weren't stupid enough to label it as a racially motivated protest, it served the purpose. As stated earlier, people in the US burned british flags because a company has the word 'British' in it's name.

[Redguard]

Look if you burn the American flag then in America that is what they see. A picture paints a thousand words. Quite a lot of Yanks, like the rest of the world, can't be arsed to educate themselves and read the small print.

Is our gripe against America the country, the American people, their establishment or G&H?

If you want to specifically take out G&H then put the blunderbus away and pick up the sniper rifle. There are many Americans who really dislike G&H - who just might be sympathetic towards us, please don't alienate them from our plight by creating stupid division.

They may speak a similar language, but remember - they are a foreign country - they are committed to their flag.

From a personal point of view I am exasperated by American political policy, their selfish stance generally and self centred ignorance. There is no such thing as 'the special relationship', it always has been a one-way street. We have more in common with European countries. Regardless, let's not burn their rag.

[OLDIE]

This is just downright offensive.

What is offensive, the thread or the burning of the flag ?

[OLDIE]

Look if you burn the American flag then in America that is what they see. A picture paints a thousand words. Quite a lot of Yanks, like the rest of the world, can't be arsed to educate themselves and read the small print.

Is our gripe against America the country, the American people, their establishment or G&H?

If you want to specifically take out G&H then put the blunderbus away and pick up the sniper rifle. There are many Americans who really dislike G&H - who just might be sympathetic towards us, please don't alienate them from our plight by creating stupid division.

They may speak a similar language, but remember - they are a foreign country - they are committed to their flag.

From a personal point of view I am exasperated by American political policy, their selfish stance generally and self centred ignorance. There is no such thing as 'the special relationship', it always has been a one-way street. We have more in common with European countries. Regardless, let's not burn their rag.

I understand what you are saying.

As a foreign nation we too deserve respect and the total disregard shown to our culture and heritage by G&H would not have been tolerated the other way round. Now you may say thats a matter of law or thats just business, I would argue that its not, it is our way of life that is being attacked.

History tells you that the people have a way of correcting the wrongs in society, take a look at your own recent history.

In the 60's shit loads of flags were burnt by your own people, whether it was the Black movements or whether it was the anti war movements, the burning of the flag gave fuel to the fire of protest, it brought home the message.

Your Country, has for many years banged on about freedom of speech and expression etc etc, quite right to, is our burning of your flag not just a way of our expressing our fight for our way of life to be maintained ? Is it not our right to use whatever methods we need to use to protect what is ours ?

I am not going into the burning of the Union flag in the USA as I understand why those people did it, Whether it was against the Beatles BP or anyone else.

If the average Joe in New York is pissed off then so be it, its short term and hey he will move on. If the not so average Joe decides to find out why the flag is being burnt then turns against H&G happy days.

I really have not heard anything yet that makes me think that burning the Flag is in this instance wrong

[Vulmea]

Disapointing but entirely expected,

because you're upset you have the right to make other people upset

because you can offend other people to get their attention you will

if somebody disregards your opinion and values you'll disgard theirs

the ends justifies the means

same ol, same ol, yada yada yada

[alex.]

I got banned for making a comment on this subject last time, so I'll choose my words carefully.

It. Is. A. Bit. Of. Cloth.

Indeed, there's not much else to say

[Chakan]

Indeed, there's not much else to say

It doesn't work like that though.
I mean if I blew up your house and killed your dog, you know cause it's just a house and just a dog. You would be pissed off right? Cause to you it's YOUR house and YOUR dog. Has a bit more meaning to you than to me.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Disapointing but entirely expected,

because you're upset you have the right to make other people upset

because you can offend other people to get their attention you will

if somebody disregards your opinion and values you'll disgard theirs

the ends justifies the means

same ol, same ol, yada yada yada

I'm very much against the ends justifies the means, utilitarianism isn't it? As I've said before I don't agree with the flag burning, as it is like booing your players on the pitch, completely counter-productive to the cause. However I do find vilifying those who are doing it (who are aiming the jibe at our american owners ONLY) a tad disturbing, we're supposed to have free speech no?

If they do it wearing Standard Chartered Shirts that's a different matter, that just makes them look ignorant and stupid, but the fact remains the intention there is not to offend Americans, it's a statement against two in particular and I refuse to admonish those who in the passion for our club want to express their anger towards the clubs owners in that way. If they were burning ten gallon hats would you have a problem with that? To Americans it's emblematic of the American Way, to Liverpool Fans it's emblematic of the two parasites destroying the Liverpool Way.

Just because people are offended by it doesn't mean the people doing it have no right to. Sometimes you offend people without any intention of doing so, offence is an immediate response which can't be controlled, having perspective is stepping outside yourself and looking at why it's being done. It's no-ones fault except your own if you choose not to have perspective.

[Timbo's Goals]

There's still letters in the Echo from Americans outraged about this flag burning. There was also one from this old dear absolutely raging with this dog that shit on the grass verge outside her house. Maybe they should have got the dog to shit on the flag huh? And then on the Union fuckin jack.

 

[Dizzyfinn]

This thread is an interesting read..

I've read anti-nationalistic arguments as to why it doesn't matter that a piece of cloth got burnt.

I've read anti-American arguments as to why it doesn't matter that their particular piece of cloth got burnt.

I've read arguments about US students in the 1960's.

None of this shit has anything to do with our plight. 

Flags as a symbol of national identity are important to some people. Are we even sure that H&G are in this category?

America is responsible for a lot of things good and bad.. but I don't think that H&G are elected politicians.

Anti-war and Civil Rights protestors used burning of the flag to argue against the government of the day. H&G aren't representing their country.

All in all , burning flags is irrelevant, pisses of some people and doesn't actually win any arguments. So.. it's a bit fuckin stupid.

[Mutton Geoff]

Well chatted to a few friend over the pond and they were not fussed!

So maybe we are getting sucked in to the murdoch media mindset of negative soundbites for the club they love to hate.

 Americans with a brain know it was about G&H and not the good old USA, they accept it in the same way i accept someone stamping on the Union Jack because of the oil spill, as one of my USA mates said nevermind the flag we worry when it is crosses getting burnt.

Anyway we have bigger fish to fry than that minor incident, so lets stop doing the equivalent of examining our navels and get on with ridding us of just two Yanks ok!

[west_london_red]

There's still letters in the Echo from Americans outraged about this flag burning. There was also one from this old dear absolutely raging with this dog that shit on the grass verge outside her house. Maybe they should have got the dog to shit on the flag huh? And then on the Union fuckin jack.

 

Theres probably Americans still writing to Elvis....

Seriously, this is a total storm in a tea cup. I can see why people are so upset, but right now there are much bigger things to think about like the future of the club.

[Vulmea]

ok to put this into a meaningful context -(because I think acorn/oak trees, let something small slide and it can become something big) - this was just one numpty in a standard chartered shirt doing what Sky wanted him to - the idea its been turned into some major drama is bizarre, this is just a thread on a forum isn't it - we aint trying to create world peace just give opinions on an incident of flag burning

So what if it happens at the rally on the 4th? - SOS have said dont do it but so what,  plenty on here think its the right thing to do,

if it causes offence so what, it gets publicity,
 
if it upsets people thats their problem not the idiots who are upsetting, them -

the fact that the two twats are american means nothing, they could be from anywhere but burn the flag anyway - its symbolic of the two owners - 
which begs the question if its just a bit of cloth what's the bleedin point of burning it? Possibly one of the most self defeating arguments so far.

with regards the upsettiing and causeing offence - does that mean we should also sing munich songs at the rally - that'll grab some headlines and a bit of atttention - so what if it offends eh? the fact if screwed the union for a good 12 months and lost them members left right and centre so what eh? any publicity is good publicity

but any which way some bloke gets lashed up or just wants to vent his frustration and burns a flag at the rally - good or bad thing or irrelevant?

[alex.]

It wasn't just the one person in the new kit who done it, many were burned

[Mutton Geoff]

It wasn't just the one person in the new kit who done it, many were burned

one black sheep and the flock followed?

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

ok to put this into a meaningful context -(because I think acorn/oak trees, let something small slide and it can become something big) - this was just one numpty in a standard chartered shirt doing what Sky wanted him to - the idea its been turned into some major drama is bizarre, this is just a thread on a forum isn't it - we aint trying to create world peace just give opinions on an incident of flag burning

So what if it happens at the rally on the 4th? - SOS have said dont do it but so what,  plenty on here think its the right thing to do,

if it causes offence so what, it gets publicity,
 
if it upsets people thats their problem not the idiots who are upsetting, them -

the fact that the two twats are american means nothing, they could be from anywhere but burn the flag anyway - its symbolic of the two owners - 
which begs the question if its just a bit of cloth what's the bleedin point of burning it? Possibly one of the most self defeating arguments so far.

with regards the upsettiing and causeing offence - does that mean we should also sing munich songs at the rally - that'll grab some headlines and a bit of atttention - so what if it offends eh? the fact if screwed the union for a good 12 months and lost them members left right and centre so what eh? any publicity is good publicity

but any which way some bloke gets lashed up or just wants to vent his frustration and burns a flag at the rally - good or bad thing or irrelevant?

I see your point entirely and agree, I just can't jump on the moral outrage bandwagon and criticise people for these actions when I'd imagine for the most part they're done with the best intentions. I don't think there'll be flag burning going on on the 4th July, I think there might be a few incidents where it may happen but I think it'll be nipped in the bud.

[REDbrown]

Lets bomb them next!

Who's with me!!

[BigTiredGrowlSnarl]

"Liverpool Fans burn US Flag"


Shirt sales go through the roof in Iran!

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

"Liverpool Fans burn US Flag"


Shirt sales go through the roof in Iran!

not a great scenario to  be honest, which this thread is all about The Iranians would be propping up our owners, not good, not good at all. So another reason not to do it

[Alf]

It needed to be done the day Rafa IMO. Feelings were running high and people wanted to make a point.

[AlphaDelta]

IMO it was wrong to burn the US flag, BUT - I can fully understand why it was done. Feelings were running high (and probably still are), fans were hurt and angry, and some fans and locals wear their hearts on their sleeve, thats the way it is and shouldnt be changed.

Lets be honest, our gripe isnt with the USA, it's with the two idiots who are FROM the USA. Had someone have burned the state of Texas flag would there have been the same outrage, probably not.

I suspect if I was a billionaire and bought the Pittsburgh Steelers, promised them the world, a new stadium, top players, then suddenly got rid of their coach, lied constantly to their fans, made Pittsburgh a laughing stock and tried to fleece them for money, then their locals wouldnt be too happy would they?

My point is, no geniune, sensible, self-respecting fan of ours would hold a grudge against a country just because two people are from there. Yes, things may be said, posted or done in the heat of the moment, but havent we all done things and immediately regretted it?

I seen a great post on here off a lad a few weeks ago saying to our American supporters that in the coming weeks some stuff would probably be said against the US which may offend, so they should know that we arent all like that and dont share them type of views!

[won ton]

The fact we need to discuss if its right means its message wasnt clear enough so its pointless. We want rid of our owners not show an anti american statement. Burn big pictures of the owners then it wont be left to interpretation. Personally I have no affinity to a flag but many do.

[brambling]

dont see the point of upsetting a majority for the sake of 2 idiots who happen to be ruining our club

[John C]

I was hoping the US press would pick up on recent campaigns and perhaps really sit up and take notice if it continued in to the world cup with a view to generating a high profile to the damage H&G are going to the club and raise more awareness in general.
 
Burning the flag is not going to make US citizens or the press say “Aye Tom, George, those scousers burnt our bastard flag live on telly and its all your fault”….I rather think they’ll just watch and say “...what the fuck…”.

[Zappa]

And achieved what?
Made us look like stupid c*nts.

This is what fucks me off with so much of the protests and aims to get G&H out.
It's stupid, ill-thought out and often backfires....but fuck it eh, you're doing something and that's all that counts isn't it?
No you fucking retards, you're undermining things that other people are doing.

And as for it being a piece of cloth - that's your view, and that's fine.  But that's not others view.  So do you just go through life living by what you think is ok?  Do you totally ignore what's important to others because it's not for you? 
Plenty of Americans have died for their flag.  Those that do die have military funerals where a massive part of it is the ceremonial handing over of the flag to their nearest and dearest.  But fuck it eh, some scallies in Liverpool don't give a fuck about a piece of cloth and just want to get on the news....who cares if the whole thing backfires and we look like neanderthals?

More and more on many levels I've nothing in common with just about anything to do with Liverpool Football Club.  If it isn't the owners taking the club to the wall it's the fans trashing our name. 
Who gives a fuck what anyone else thinks though eh? 
Oh hang on....that's why we're doing it....to get other people's support....I've had an epiphany....we're fucking stupid.

Says it all

[vicgill]

It's not acceptable to me.  Our fight is against our two owners because of how they have treated the club not because of their nationality. Why risk insulting people who would be on our side on that side of the pond ?    It diminishes the great work that a lot of people are doing at the moment in my view.   

Exactly what I would have posted

[Stateside Red]

Here's my 2 cents as an American on the proposed July 4th burn ... take it for what you will:

If anyone thinks that the media over here is going to take the time to explain why LFC supporters are burning the flag, you're dreaming. Big time. I didn't even know about the previous burning ... I have no idea where that news was played over here. And even if they did, if you think the average American is going to take the time to try to understand it, you're comatose. With the BP disaster going on the vast majority of Americans will see it as some kind of response to that. The very few that get the news that it's a bunch of "soccer" fans, it will just reinforce the hooligan image, and still will not tie it to G&H. The tiny, tiny few who do understand what you're doing will think it's misguided and stupid ... as most everyone here has said it ain't about the US, it's about the owners. And, these tiny few (including me) will doubt that it really is just about the owners ... there's plenty of anti-American comments just on this thread to convince me of that.

To those of you who think it's just a piece of cloth, I ask you ... if you were outside of OT and a bunch of Mancs had an LFC flag drenched in fuel and asked you for a light, I suppose your response would be "Sure, it's just a bit of cloth"? Please.

If you want to burn the flag, go right ahead. That's your right. But over here there's absolutely nothing positive that can come of it. On the other hand I don't think anything substantially negative can come of it either here ... ESPNs coverage notwithstanding our passage out of the group stages was met more with disappointment here since it meant the tournament wasn't going to "go away" soon. And that's the sports fans. The rest of the country has far more pressing concerns than the plight of a sport's team from that town where the Beatles came from (and the younger generation here aren't that aware of the Beatles even). I can't speak for the rest of the world but I really don't see anything positive coming from it ... just a bunch of fans blowing off steam and trying to convince themselves they're doing it for a cause. Good luck with that.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Here's my 2 cents as an American on the proposed July 4th burn

What proposed July 4th burn?

[Stateside Red]

What proposed July 4th burn?

Sorry ... I thought from Gareth's post on the first page of this thread ("Anyone who wants to burn US flags will do so on Jul 4th") that there was a group planning a burn for the 4th ... if not my comments still stand for any future plans if there are any.

[Mutton Geoff]

this still going on, god what is a bigger issue a few flags being burnt or this club being destroyed, stop getting sidetracked from the reason they where rightly or wrongly burnt!

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Sorry ... I thought from Gareth's post on the first page of this thread ("Anyone who wants to burn US flags will do so on Jul 4th") that there was a group planning a burn for the 4th ... if not my comments still stand for any future plans if there are any.

We are planning a huge burn on St Georges Plateau on July 4th.  I have Christian Purslow bound and gagged in my cellar and he is... "gagging" to play the Guy Fawkes role.

[RedSeattleite]

this still going on, god what is a bigger issue a few flags being burnt or this club being destroyed, stop getting sidetracked from the reason they where rightly or wrongly burnt!

Wouldn't be sidetracked if it hadn't been burnt, would we? I personally wasn't offended but do understand how others could be. Shouldn't have been done but it was, so lets move on.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

American's hate 'Commie loving bastards' - particularly Texans - and that's how we're being portrayed.

Burning the US flag plays right into Hicks hands and, if continued, will lose us sympathy and support over there.   Hicks doesn't give a toss about what we do over here in terms of publicity (remember, he hates us, we exposed his son as a foul mouthed moron) but he will be very irritated if adverse publicity started in his own back yard. I am aware of some stuff that is being prepared with the help of US based fans, which is vital, but incidents like burning their national flag makes it all so much more difficult for us and them.

[silver 5 star]

American's hate 'Commie loving bastards' - particularly Texans - and that's how we're being portrayed.


A significant percentage of American's also believe they have been abducted / experimented on / had sex / children to little bug-eyed Grey aliens.

Only 17m watched them play England in the World Cup.

I don't care a shite what they think. This is Liverpool, England.

Not In-Bred Arkansas.

[Chakan]

American's hate 'Commie loving bastards' - particularly Texans - and that's how we're being portrayed.


A significant percentage of American's also believe they have been abducted / experimented on / had sex / children to little bug-eyed Grey aliens.

Only 17m watched them play England in the World Cup.

I don't care a shite what they think. This is Liverpool, England.

Not In-Bred Arkansas.

Guess only Liverpool, England supporters can support Liverpool

[silver 5 star]

Guess only Liverpool, England supporters can support Liverpool

The ones that count do. Born here, supported the club all my life. Get the bus to the ground. My club. My city.

Anyway, you are just upset Ghana scored

[Chakan]

The ones that count do. Born here, supported the club all my life. Get the bus to the ground. My club. My city.

Anyway, you are just upset Ghana scored

So you are saying I don't count as a supporter?

And yes I am upset Ghana scored , USA very slow outta the blocks

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

So you are saying I don't count as a supporter?

And yes I am upset Ghana scored , USA very slow outta the blocks

And a bunch of dirty cloggers to boot.  Come on you mighty Black Stars!

[anon-y-mouse]

This is absolutely hilarious. Why on earth do people feel the need to defend themselves from these  no mark US based internet warriors who get hot under the collar over something that ultimately is irrelevant to them and their existence.

Simple fact is that OUR club is being raped, pillaged and stolen from US by a pair of lying American theives. If some people want to burn a stars and stripes as a symbol of the hatred which H&G have managed to acquire then so be it and frankly some jumped up US based "internet fans", most of whom don't even know where Liverpool is let alone anything else about the club can, in my humble opinion, fuck right off. What gives them the right to moralise about a bit of flag burning. They don't go to the match, they don't understand our history, their precious national flag is clearly more important to them than our football club so frankly they should all disappear off a Liverpool football club fans website as they are not fans.

I appreciate there are the odd exception to the above and there are a few top fellas from the states who make a huge effort to understand and to attend the match but the majority of those crying foul over a bit of flag burning fit the above description perfectly and have no place in this discussion.