Topic: Official- Rafa's Gone - Who's Next?

[Neil D]

It cracks me up the idiocy of the squad being worse statement, that gets trotted out.

At the beginning of last season, not one person on the face of the planet would have said it.

Exactly. It's just utterly, completely wrong. No arguments. How can a squad that finished second and reached the CL QF just 12 months ago minus three players - Xabi, Arbeloa and Sami - replaced by Aquilani, Johnson and Soto - be worse than the Ged side that came fifth and fourth in his last two seasons and got knocked out of the UEFA Cup by jokers two years running? With players like those listed on our books?

[djphal]

just had a fiver on pellegrini at 37/1 on betfair

gone right down to 20/1 now, he is 14/1 on betfred

[beadlehand]

Clearly not - what he is saying is with these cancerous owners, hundreds of millions of debts and scum running our club we are not the Liverpool we were.

To be honest Neil, The way he expressed himself i'm not that interested in what he thinks. We are having an adult discussion and he bursts in like it's bar brawl.

The situation with the ownership is obvious to all, including an incoming manager, but to keep referring to them here is getting us nowhere. It's an issue for other threads.

The way I see it. The club is for sale. They are going.

[Johnnyboy1973]

just had a fiver on pellegrini at 37/1 on betfair

Fucks sake, you could have just given it to me.

[cornelius]

BULLSHIT. It's miles better and you know it. We have a world class goalkeeper, a world class defensive midfielder, a world class attacking midfielder and a world class striker. Add to that the likes of Johnson, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Aquilani, Lucas, Yossi and Kuyt. When Rafa took over we had an average keeper, one great CB in Sami nearing the end of his career and two or three underperforming fullbacks - Carra, Finnan and JAR, a host of injury prone underperforming wingers and frontmen, one very good CM in Gerrard and one very good DM nearing the end of his career in Didi with one very good striker past his best in Owen halfway out the door and just two average strikers in Baros and Cisse.

We also had far more unshiftable dross - and this is undeniable - Le Tallec, Cheyrou, Salif, Diouf... shite players galore... including the ones Rafa managed to get to play a bit - Igor and Traore. Name the players we have like that now.

And yet in the next breath you say nobody will touch us with a bargepole. Who wouldn't want to work with players like Reina and Torres?

[Robo707]

And finished 33 points off the pace in the league.

We won the CL with that squad plus two players who did more than anybody to win us the comp - Xabi and Luis - thanks to Rafa.

Don't get me wrong lad, I disagreed with the original post presented to us, I don't think the team is in the same position as it was - I just think the squad had potential to be a good squad with a few additions, not a re-vamp.

But we got the re-vamp and I think it is better, but some of the players we had were good enough players for the current starting 11.

[MerseysideRedsFan]

For those who are saying "We are Liverpool", ofcourse we are but do you all expect all top Managers to take up the job and not wonder what would happen to their reputation if they are not backed properly by the owners?. No top manager would take up a job if they don't think they can enhance the club or their reputation further.

[Gromit]

That average squad you name there.......won in 2005 Champions League final.

Which made it all the more unlikely and special, comparable to Greece winning the Euros.  We had most of that squad available for sale afterwards and we weren't knocked over with offers.

We couldn't agree on a fee for Dudek and he eventually left on a free.  Biscan and Smicer were let go straight way.  Baros and Cisse struggled to get moves until Villa and Marseille came calling.  Djimi only lasted another year before being sold to Pompy.

It just wouldn't happen again.

[cornelius]

For those who are saying "We are Liverpool", ofcourse we are but do you all expect all top Managers to take up the job and not wonder what would happen to their reputation if they are not backed properly by the owners?. No top manager would take up a job if they don't think they can enhance the club or their reputation further.

No top manager thinks like that. Because truly top managers believe they will succeed.

[Gromit]

truly top managers believe they will succeed.

And know when to swerve jobs that are only going to damage their reputations.

[djphal]

Fucks sake, you could have just given it to me.

he is a free agent and a big name so why not?

[Neil D]

To be honest Neil, The way he expressed himself i'm not that interested in what he thinks. We are having an adult discussion and he bursts in like it's bar brawl.

The situation with the ownership is obvious to all, including an incoming manager, but to keep referring to them here is getting us nowhere. It's an issue for other threads.

The way I see it. The club is for sale. They are going.

Fair enough.

I hope so mate, but it could be a long time yet.

And yet in the next breath you say nobody will touch us with a bargepole. Who wouldn't want to work with players like Reina and Torres?

Who says they will be here unless the Yanks invest in new players this summer? It all comes back down to who will want to work as manager or play as a player at Anfield with those parasites in charge, millions of pounds of debt and unrealistic expectations.

Don't get me wrong lad, I disagreed with the original post presented to us, I don't think the team is in the same position as it was - I just think the squad had potential to be a good squad with a few additions, not a re-vamp.

But we got the re-vamp and I think it is better, but some of the players we had were good enough players for the current starting 11.

Agreed - and Rafa turned some of those players into world beaters and revived the careers of several too.

[MerseysideRedsFan]

No top manager thinks like that. Because truly top managers believe they will succeed.

Even without a proper backing, without the support of the board, you are saying the so called top managers will succeed?

[Trada]

Wouldn't surprise me to see a managerial-merry-go-round. In our history we back and support the manager through thick and thin. The owners have already shown they have no intention to support any manager coming in and are just continuing their exit strategy. The club means less than nothing to them, apart from the $$$$ they are attempting to make out of it.

I have a feeling that any new manager won't get the total backing of the fans like all other managers and he will be just seen as their yes man.

I also have a feeling that any new manager will have to sell 1 or 2 of our top players in the hope of getting any transfer money and then H+G will have their fall guy for there sales saying it was all down to him and they had nothing to do with it.

[Johnnyboy1973]

he is a free agent and a big name so why not?

Personally, because I believe there will be no money for squad investment and also no guarantee that top players wont be sold nor a guarantee that money from those sales will go back into the club.

For me, any top manager will want to be able to invest in the side because it needs it. With money not being there for that and the knowledge that we are so far in debt, I would be amazed if a top manager would take it.

[Ron]

You can't say if this squad is better or worse then Houlliers.
But I do remember that even though the 2001-2002 squad had some really good players, the football was really negative.
I remember a home game against Tottenham where we were on our own half for most of the game, waiting to counter attack.
It was embarrassing. We won that game by one goal, scored by Litmanen.
 
What I don't understand is why people find it useful to say the pre-Rafa team was better then this one.
What good will that do ?
I can tell you, I think the '88 team would have kicked the shit out of any team playing today, but what's the use ?

[vicgill]

Why does it stink? Rafa wanted to stay here but the c*nts sack him from his dream job and he has to leave a city that he had taken to his heart and that his family called home. That's got nothing to do with Inter and besides, he hasn't actually got the Inter job yet.

If the club didn't want to spend that £6m they shouldn't have sacked him - simple really.

Thanks Alan, saved me from a ban

[Old No7]

just had a fiver on pellegrini at 37/1 on betfair

gone right down to 20/1 now, he is 14/1 on betfred

Pellegrini did well in Spain, but given the shit we are in financially, i really think we are better off with a British manager, or someone who has manged in England before, who understands the PL. Just as long as its not harry fucking redknapp

I know its stating the obvious but Hodgson or Kenny, in the short term, would be the safe pair of hands we need

[cornelius]

Even without a proper backing, without the support of the board, you are saying the so called top managers will succeed?

Why won't they be getting backing or support of the board exactly? Having no money to spend is not the same thing as not backing or supporting your manager.

[The 5th Benitle]

not good enough.. he should have paid back last year's salary cos he left us with a weakened squad

Yeah, because that's how things work in life isn't it. Fucks sake.

[In the Name of Klopp]

Our squad now is no better than when Rafa arrived. 

However the issue right now is not longevity its getting the squad to perform to its potential, we still have a team that should easily make 4th place and with that 4th place and champs league football and the club looks more a buyable assett.

Please do us all a favour and fuck off!

[TommySmithsLiver]

It looks like a troll, it talks like a troll, treat it like a troll.

That awful troll Hansen?

BULLSHIT. It's miles better and you know it. We have a world class goalkeeper, a world class defensive midfielder, a world class attacking midfielder and a world class striker. Add to that the likes of Johnson, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Aquilani, Lucas, Yossi and Kuyt. When Rafa took over we had an average keeper, one great CB in Sami nearing the end of his career and two or three underperforming fullbacks - Carra, Finnan and JAR, a host of injury prone underperforming wingers and frontmen, one very good CM in Gerrard and one very good DM nearing the end of his career in Didi with one very good striker past his best in Owen halfway out the door and just two average strikers in Baros and Cisse.

We also had far more unshiftable dross - and this is undeniable - Le Tallec, Cheyrou, Salif, Diouf... shite players galore... including the ones Rafa managed to get to play a bit - Igor and Traore. Name the players we have like that now.

Its a discussion for another thread but all that comes with the wisdom of hindsight.  Le Tallec for example had outshone Cristiano Ronaldo with 5 goals at the world under 17s tournament and in the same tournament Sinama Pongolle had been voted best player, Diao had bossed the midfield or a suprise package Senegal that had beaten the world champions in their first game since taking the title.  Also Sammi is still doing the business 5 years on so saying he was comi9ng to the end is a bit harsh. 
Who is to say in 5 years time we wont look back now and say much the same thing?

[The 5th Benitle]

OK, so I would love Roberto Martinez to come here, work on a small tight budget as we all know, and grow into the next star over the next decade (while the club finds new investors by the end of this calendar year).  I am a fantasist.

Tell you what, that's not a bad shout that.

[TommySmithsLiver]

Please do us all a favour and fuck off!

For stating that what we need is to get the owners out and the club sold?  Do you like having Gillet and Hicks in charge?

[nicholasanthony]

For stating that what we need is to get the owners out and the club sold?  Do you like having Gillet and Hicks in charge?

*whispers* i think he meant that part where you actually think our squad is worse now than when Rafa got it.

[Sangria]

BULLSHIT. It's miles better and you know it. We have a world class goalkeeper, a world class defensive midfielder, a world class attacking midfielder and a world class striker. Add to that the likes of Johnson, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Aquilani, Lucas, Yossi and Kuyt. When Rafa took over we had an average keeper, one great CB in Sami nearing the end of his career and two or three underperforming fullbacks - Carra, Finnan and JAR, a host of injury prone underperforming wingers and frontmen, one very good CM in Gerrard and one very good DM nearing the end of his career in Didi with one very good striker past his best in Owen halfway out the door and just two average strikers in Baros and Cisse.

We also had far more unshiftable dross - and this is undeniable - Le Tallec, Cheyrou, Salif, Diouf... shite players galore... including the ones Rafa managed to get to play a bit - Igor and Traore. Name the players we have like that now.

The objective measure is sale value. Gerrard and Carragher apart, the rest of the squad is entirely of Benitez's building. How much did the pre-Benitez squad fetch on the market, and how much would the Benitez squad fetch on the market. Whatever the calibre of the people arguing about the qualities of the respective squads, the market is the most objective measuring scale.

[KOTP]

Aint got a clue who its gonna be but its gotta to be somebody who has a proven track record of working wonders on a limited budget, there is absolutely no point going for some on the huge names being banded about that only seem to be able to produce the goods with limitless cash as we aint got that and wont have that for a long time, fans are gonna have to realise we are gonna be one of the 4 or 5 clubs battling for europa league every season for a fair while

[Neil D]

Its a discussion for another thread but all that comes with the wisdom of hindsight.  Le Tallec for example had outshone Cristiano Ronaldo with 5 goals at the world under 17s tournament and in the same tournament Sinama Pongolle had been voted best player, Diao had bossed the midfield or a suprise package Senegal that had beaten the world champions in their first game since taking the title.  Also Sammi is still doing the business 5 years on so saying he was comi9ng to the end is a bit harsh. 
Who is to say in 5 years time we wont look back now and say much the same thing?

I think you're avoiding the debate there and you can't counter my points. By the end of Houllier's reign we knew all those players I have listed as dross were not good enough for Liverpool. Hindsight doesn't come into it. That is a different argument about how transfer mistakes are made. The same amount of unsellable utter dross does not exist now. And more world class talent and proven international talent exists within the squad who would command higher fees if sold. It was universally accepted that Sami was coming to the end of his career. It turned out that Rafa revived that career, but he was still an older centre half. We have top players now approaching their peaks who are young and would command mega, mega fees. Reina. Masch. Torres. Then sklightly less but still top money, Johnson, Agger, players with their best years definitely ahead of them.

Rafa's squad now is much stronger than the one Houllier left. That's all there is to it.

[cornelius]

Rafa's squad now is much stronger than the one Houllier left. That's all there is to it.

So the league table lies and Rafa deserved the boot?

[RedinExile]

I'm not telling your or anybody else to weep - I'm pointing out the ludicrous reality of sacking one of the most successful and highly rated coaches in the world only to then apparently draw up a shortlist of second rate stooges and nearly men.

Yes but how else do you expect them to be able to cash in on star players if Rafa had still been around. Part a) remove the one true obstacle Part b) sell assets under the nose of a new mug.

[RedinExile]

So the league table lies and Rafa deserved the boot?

Yes that's clearly the only two options.

[Neil D]

So the league table lies and Rafa deserved the boot?

We badly underperformed last year and Rafa made lots of mistakes. But after one bad season when we had an injury crisis unlike any other (save for possibly 04-05)since I have watched the Reds in 20 years? No.

[rakey_lfc]

Quite clearly Lippi and Hitzfeld will be available in 5 weeks time.

Didn't know this, then surely they should be prime targets??

[cornelius]

Yes that's clearly the only two options.

So how can the squad be loads better, finish 7th and it all be the yanks fault?

[In the Name of Klopp]

For stating that what we need is to get the owners out and the club sold?  Do you like having Gillet and Hicks in charge?

There're nothing wrong with our current owners. They're doing one hell of a job with their sidekicks CP and MB. It's all Rafa fault that this once great club are in this mess.

[MerseysideRedsFan]

Why won't they be getting backing or support of the board exactly? Having no money to spend is not the same thing as not backing or supporting your manager.

For one, they will criticize you for everything that would go wrong, aka Gillett mentioning in an interview that the reason we lost the league last year was because of Rafa. Then there is Christian, "the snake" who thinks he is a great football tactician who will brief the press against the manager's tactics and then there is the Klinsmann saga which will hover around the owner's head every year. Do you honestly think a manager like Mourinho (a great manager but a t*at of a man, would never want him near Liverpool) would work under these incompetent people, people without principles?.I'd say no chance.

[Sangria]

So how can the squad be loads better, finish 7th and it all be the yanks fault?

The objective measure is sale value. Gerrard and Carragher apart, the rest of the squad is entirely of Benitez's building. How much did the pre-Benitez squad fetch on the market, and how much would the Benitez squad fetch on the market. Whatever the calibre of the people arguing about the qualities of the respective squads, the market is the most objective measuring scale.

How much did/would the two squads fetch if sold? Use the Tomkins formula of calculating as a percentage of the record British transfer fee if you want to take inflation into account.

[cornelius]

For one, they will criticize you for everything that would go wrong, aka Gillett mentioning in an interview that the reason we lost the league last year was because of Rafa. Then there is Christian, "the snake" who thinks he is a great football tactician who will brief the press against the manager's tactics and then there is the Klinsmann saga which will hover around the owner's head every year. Do you honestly think a manager like Mourinho (a great manager but a t*at of a man, would never want him near Liverpool) would work under these incompetent people, people without principles?.I'd say no chance.

It's pretty clear they didn't like Rafa right from the off. Would they treat their own appointment in this way?

[Gromit]

So how can the squad be loads better, finish 7th and it all be the yanks fault?

Because the rest of the PL got better and we didn't invest to keep up.

We take it for granted that England gets 4 teams progressing to the latter stages of the CL but I think 05 was the first time it happened.

We've also seen Boro, Newcastle and now ourselves reach the latter stages of the UEFA cup.  The improvement in the League since Houllier's time in charge has been huge, we're now a country that people actually expect to see a CL finalist from.

[diaren]

The objective measure is sale value. Gerrard and Carragher apart, the rest of the squad is entirely of Benitez's building. How much did the pre-Benitez squad fetch on the market, and how much would the Benitez squad fetch on the market. Whatever the calibre of the people arguing about the qualities of the respective squads, the market is the most objective measuring scale.

To be fair, when Benítez arrived our record signing was Cissé at £14M. Houllier's squad was a lot cheaper than Benítez's, and will obviously have a lower value.

I'm not saying I agree with the original statement, but it's not as wide of the mark as some people say. The highs are a lot higher now than 2004, with Reina, Mascherano, Johnson, Torres. But then three of these cost around £20M. Add to that Aquilani. Those four would probably cover a big chunk of Houllier's gross spend.