Author Topic: New stadium when we get new owners?  (Read 88928 times)

Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #160 on: September 29, 2010, 11:07:14 am »
In the full papers ( which are available for anyone to see, and interpret) the Council undertakes to grant a lease upon implentation of the PP. That is in writing.

I cannot remember the length of the lease, nor any rent details.

It is reported at 999years currently at £300,000pa.


Offline xerxes1

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2010, 11:20:46 am »
It is reported at 999years currently at £300,000pa.
Thank you. It would be interesting to know what provision for rent reviews there is.
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Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #162 on: September 29, 2010, 04:53:51 pm »
Does anyone think the new owners will go with a different architect firm?

Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #163 on: September 29, 2010, 07:03:24 pm »
Does anyone think the new owners will go with a different architect firm?

They should bin the idea of a new stadium altogether

Offline shelovesyou

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #164 on: September 29, 2010, 07:38:14 pm »
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/markogden/100012756/valencias-grim-monument-to-footballs-financial-madness/

Valencia currently sit proudly at the top of La Liga and are back on the Champions League stage that befits the only club to have mounted a consistent threat to the Spanish duopoly of Real Madrid and Barcelona.
Their Champions League clash with Manchester United on Wednesday evening merely rubber-stamped Los Che’s return to the big time.
But there is a weed-strewn, ghost stadium in the north-west of the city, Spain’s third-largest, that acts as a monument to the perils awaiting football clubs who live beyond their means.
The Nou Mestalla, Valencia’s proposed 73,200-seater super-stadium, remains the same skeletal shell of an arena it was when construction was halted in February 2009 due to the club’s dire financial situation.
Planned to rival Real’s Bernabeu and Barcelona’s Nou Camp as a contender to host major European finals, the Nou Mestalla appears state-of-the-art on the architects’ drawing board.
But in reality, the half-built stadium highlights in one bleak image the risks that clubs face if they stretch their finances beyond breaking point and miss the crossroads where living the dream becomes a living nightmare.
Even if Valencia, currently more than £420m in debt, re-start construction work tomorrow, Nou Mestalla will not be ready for at least 14 months.
In April of this year, the Spanish newspaper Marca reported that some areas of the unfinished £250m stadium had already become damaged beyond repair during the months of abandonment.
Valencia’s situation has obvious parallels with those of Manchester United and Liverpool, who both continue to operate under the burden of extraordinary debt.
United’s £716.5m debt under the Glazer family has been a divisive issue, ever more so since the Americans’ £500m bond issue in January, yet with revenue streams continuing to pump money into Old Trafford, United appear, on the face of it, in a much stronger position than their Champions League opponents.
Liverpool’s predicament is perhaps more worryingly comparable to that of Valencia, with the Spanish club acting as a warning of the apocalyptic next stage that could befall English football’s most successful club.
The failure of owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett to build a new stadium for the club has proven disastrous for Liverpool, but maybe Valencia’s situation proves that the Liverpool have dodged a bullet by delaying the start of construction of their proposed new ground.
With the Nou Mestalla dragging Valencia down, the club were forced to rake in more than £70m in transfer fees this summer by selling the likes of David Villa, David Silva, Nikola Zigic and Carlos Marchena.
Liverpool just about managed to stave off increasing financial pressure by retaining the services of Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres. Had they been forced to fund the building of a new stadium, holding onto their two superstars would have proved almost impossible.
Valencia, remarkably, have been able to thrive on the pitch in spite of their financial crisis and the sales of their best players.
While Leeds United – Valencia’s opponents in the 2001 Champions League semi-final – sunk into the third tier after being forced to sell their stars to survive, Valencia have so far kept their head above water.
But they still have to find the funds to finish the Nou Mestalla and that is proving an almighty challenge.
The pictures of the stadium should haunt the chief executive and owner of every club that is battling to cope with heavy debt, though.
Valencia are a powerhouse club, one with six domestic titles and four European trophies on their honours’ list. If it can happen to them, it could happen to anybody.
Tags: george gillett, Glazer, leeds united, Liverpool, Manchester United, Nou Mestalla, tom hicks, Valencia
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Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #165 on: September 29, 2010, 07:41:55 pm »
They should bin the idea of a new stadium altogether
As much as id love to stay at Anfield, the club needs a new stadium just look at Arsenal, Record profits

Offline Alan_X

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #166 on: September 29, 2010, 09:56:57 pm »
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/markogden/100012756/valencias-grim-monument-to-footballs-financial-madness/



A new stadium has the potential to make a great deal of money... for the investor, and if it is filled. Your money will be paying for the use of some guy's cash to pay for lumps of concrete and steel, not players.

It also has the potential to lose a great deal of our money, if it is not full.

Two very interesting posts and hopefully a wake up call to those who bang on about the importance of having a "unique" stadium and a 70,000+ capacity. What we need is a straightforward 60,000 seater stadium with a decent sized single-bank Kop end and more boxes and corporate facilities than we have at the moment.

Fuck the wanky architectural statements - it's a fucking football ground for fuck's sake. Make it functional and it will have it's own beauty - show the raw concrete of the underside of the stands and build the sides from corrugated steel. Build it cheap enough and we can do the important things - buy players, play football and win trophies.

We have a scheme that had planning - with a few amendments it would be one of the best football grounds in the country.
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Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #167 on: September 29, 2010, 10:07:11 pm »
Id be happy with a generic "bowl" that people hate, It's the fans that make the atomosphere not the stadium itself, sure it might add a bit but i would much rather have a fully enclosed stadium where the stands tower over the pitch and no sound at all is let out through corners of the ground

Give me a copy of the millenium stadium with a single tier kop anyday!

Offline redprodigal

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #168 on: September 29, 2010, 10:47:17 pm »
Id be happy with a generic "bowl" that people hate, It's the fans that make the atomosphere not the stadium itself, sure it might add a bit but i would much rather have a fully enclosed stadium where the stands tower over the pitch and no sound at all is let out through corners of the ground

Give me a copy of the millenium stadium with a single tier kop anyday!

The millenium is a great stadium but hardly a generic bowl though.

Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #169 on: September 29, 2010, 10:55:58 pm »
Well really how many generic bowls are there? Arsenal's,Wembley, Where else?

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #170 on: September 30, 2010, 12:14:01 am »
It is reported at 999years currently at £300,000pa.



And no premium?



Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #171 on: September 30, 2010, 04:24:51 am »
Two very interesting posts and hopefully a wake up call to those who bang on about the importance of having a "unique" stadium and a 70,000+ capacity. What we need is a straightforward 60,000 seater stadium with a decent sized single-bank Kop end and more boxes and corporate facilities than we have at the moment.

Fuck the wanky architectural statements - it's a fucking football ground for fuck's sake. Make it functional and it will have it's own beauty - show the raw concrete of the underside of the stands and build the sides from corrugated steel. Build it cheap enough and we can do the important things - buy players, play football and win trophies.

We have a scheme that had planning - with a few amendments it would be one of the best football grounds in the country.

With respect, I think you miss the point. ANY new stadium that we can build, cheap tin or otherwise, will cost the fans a fortune in ticket prices and give our money to investors, not the club and not football. It's a con - that's the wake up call.


Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #172 on: September 30, 2010, 04:25:34 am »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #173 on: September 30, 2010, 06:05:43 am »
With respect, I think you miss the point. ANY new stadium that we can build, cheap tin or otherwise, will cost the fans a fortune in ticket prices and give our money to investors, not the club and not football. It's a con - that's the wake up call.

If that was your point then I think you're wrong.

First off, you make sure the developer is the club, not an outsider. Building stadia makes business sense as long as you build the right capacity with the right spec. People do it all over the world. The club has already started the process of bringing things back in house like catering etc and I would expect the stadium construction to be a Liverpool Football Club project not some kind of lease-back deal.

Secondly, when it comes to keeping ticket prices down in the long term the most important cross-subsidy isn't selling flats on a one-off basis it's about selling a proportion of your seats at premium (corporate) prices. Most fans won't pay "Diamond Club" prices but those few paying £25,000 pa allow more seats to be sold at lower prices. Staying at Anfield with it's inadequate corporate facilities will do one of two things - force the club to increase the number of standard seats used for corporate entertainment (depriving normal match-goers of seats) or force a general increase in ticket prices to make up the shortfall in match day income (or possibly both).

Third - you're correct that the club wouldn't be developing Anfield into luxury flats. It would however be re-developing the site of the old ground to create retail, conference facilities and a hotel. These would generate revenue on an ongoing basis - cross subsidising the stadium development.

Fourth - Arsenal's ticket prices are as much a case of "what the market will bear" as anything else. As you point out, the cheapest tickets were £32 in 06-07. What it comes down to is having a stadium that has a range of seats and prices with a decent proportion at the lower end. That's easier to do with a new stadium.

Of course we should look at upgrading Anfield as an option but either way, it's about the right stadium for the right price - not a monument to Hick's ego.

Just sticking with what we've got is not an option unless we're happy to become a second-rate club.
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Offline Lolo

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #174 on: September 30, 2010, 08:02:31 am »
...................................It's the fans that make the atomosphere not the stadium itself, Sure it might add a bit but i would much rather have a fully enclosed stadium where the stands tower over the pitch and no sound at all is let out through corners of the ground

Give me a copy of the millenium stadium with a single tier kop anyday!

is correct.

I'd welcome a copy of the Millenium Stadium.

Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #175 on: September 30, 2010, 09:09:17 am »
Secondly, when it comes to keeping ticket prices down in the long term the most important cross-subsidy isn't selling flats on a one-off basis it's about selling a proportion of your seats at premium (corporate) prices. Most fans won't pay "Diamond Club" prices but those few paying £25,000 pa allow more seats to be sold at lower prices. Staying at Anfield with it's inadequate corporate facilities will do one of two things - force the club to increase the number of standard seats used for corporate entertainment (depriving normal match-goers of seats) or force a general increase in ticket prices to make up the shortfall in match day income (or possibly both).

Just sticking with what we've got is not an option unless we're happy to become a second-rate club.
Spot on there Alan, Whether we like it or not the money to be made is in the corparate side of things, It's probably why the boxes have been done up at Anfield, To try attract people with more money to splash out on a box, If there are no corparate facilities to satisfy the demand then the club will want to make money elsewhere which could lead to ticket prices being raised

Man Utd 160
Arsenal have 150 Boxes
Man City have 70
Tottenham have 120

new Galatasaray stadium will have 150 boxes

anfield only has 32, im not sure how many are planned for the new one?

Offline xerxes1

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #176 on: September 30, 2010, 11:32:47 am »
TMOI, you offer an argument that hangs together, and I respect that. I do not accept all of your figures, not because I think that you are misrepresenting them, but because so many of the elements are unknown, hence my wish for a transparent official comparative study.

Your claim that Anfield is a “fantastic asset” is simply not true. Man U and Arsenal, erstwhile competitors ,are generating an extra £1.5m revenue a home game from their stadia. In Arsenal’s case it is not all profit, but in due course it will be. The cumulative and corrosive effect on our competitiveness with those two clubs, and many others, has been apparent and will continue.

We will all agree that any new stadium (Arsenal) or comprehensive ground redevelopment (Man U) has to be commercially viable. Self evidently either option has to be “worth it”. Anfield is now the 64th largest ground in Europe, we are the 23rd best supported by average attendance. Anyone can see that those two statistics grossly misrepresent both our status and our economic potential.

Staying put will result in ever increasing ticket prices for ordinary fans and a commercial potential which will never be fully exploited – as Spurs have found, what was their solution?

I happen to agree with you that the financial advantages of a 60k new Anfield versus a redeveloped existing Anfield may be marginal- but I would need to see an independent study.
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Offline TLT

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #177 on: September 30, 2010, 11:51:35 am »
 
The Arsenal comparison isn't the best one. I appreciate there are some similarities, yes. But some key differences also. Most notably, "The London Factor".

Look at United for example. Their season ticket prices start from as little as £513, with the most expensive £913. With a range of 9 ticket pricing options.

Anfield currently only has 2. That is side stands, and goal ends. That is it. OK they have restricted view where they will knock a quid off, but it is hardly the same. In most modern stadiums now, you pay for your seat and where you sit.

So for example, lower tiers maybe more expensive than upper tiers. Corner seats cheaper than ones near the centre of the pitch. This doesn't happen currently at Anfield at all.

So what you will likely see, in any stadium that we get, is there will be a range of ticket prices. With a range of say £30-50 depending on where you sit. (United's range from £27 - 49 for CL group stages for example). The same would happen for season tickets too.

So while yes, there will be a hike in some season ticket prices, there is room for a reduction also. Whether they will do that or not, I don't know. But if we are to have such a large stadium, I don't envisage them sticking with the same pricing structure that they have now.

I know this is wishful thinking under our current ownership, but lets be realistic, they aren't going to put any spade in the ground. I think any new owners that come in will know that if they increase ticket prices astronically, then people will walk away. Liverpool can't afford London prices, that simple.

But they could get away with an increase for key seating areas, if others were kept well priced, or even reduced.
 

Offline xerxes1

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #178 on: September 30, 2010, 12:24:31 pm »
The Arsenal comparison is used to point out the differences between them and LFC. Many people say it works at the Emirates so it must be ok. This is simplistic and dangerous.

Tickets prices will need to increase revenue from £940 per seat to £1430 per seat to make even the small margin illustrated above. Half an hour and a spreadsheet will quickly tell you there isn't going to be any decreases in any standard ticket prices to go to a new stadium - maybe a 'boy's pen' price and that's about it.

Conversely you are using the Arsenal example to demonstrate that it does not work. What about Scunthorpe,Wycombe, Walsall, Reading, Sunderland and Bolton? Each club has an unique finacial dynamic, and the "solution" has to be commercial. we are all agreed. But your conclusion that new stadia don't work is wrong. I am not suggesting that we "do an Arsenal", merely that we do what is to our medium and long term financial benefit- and if that is a new stadium, so be it.

Your figures are pure conjecture. Let me offer you some hypothetical ones of my own. both Man U and Arsenal have around 10,000 premium seats .They contribute around 40% of matchday revenue of around £3m a game, that averages £120 per seat.We currently have 4000 premium seats. An extra 6000 at £120 each generates an extra  £720,000. A 70k new Anfield that offered an extra 6000 premium seats, and the balance of 18,500 ordinary seats at £30 (£555,000) would generate an extra £1.25m a home game, over 25 home games that is £31.87m a season. Or £637.5m over 20 years.

Take naming rights off a stadium cost and convince me that those sorts of revenues cannot generate profits which dwarf anything that Anfield could offer.
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Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #179 on: September 30, 2010, 12:50:40 pm »
Conversely you are using the Arsenal example to demonstrate that it does not work. What about Scunthorpe,Wycombe, Walsall, Reading, Sunderland and Bolton? Each club has an unique finacial dynamic, and the "solution" has to be commercial. we are all agreed. But your conclusion that new stadia don't work is wrong. I am not suggesting that we "do an Arsenal", merely that we do what is to our medium and long term financial benefit- and if that is a new stadium, so be it.

Your figures are pure conjecture. Let me offer you some hypothetical ones of my own. both Man U and Arsenal have around 10,000 premium seats .They contribute around 40% of matchday revenue of around £3m a game, that averages £120 per seat.We currently have 4000 premium seats. An extra 6000 at £120 each generates an extra  £720,000. A 70k new Anfield that offered an extra 6000 premium seats, and the balance of 18,500 ordinary seats at £30 (£555,000) would generate an extra £1.25m a home game, over 25 home games that is £31.87m a season. Or £637.5m over 20 years.

Take naming rights off a stadium cost and convince me that those sorts of revenues cannot generate profits which dwarf anything that Anfield could offer.

One last time, I imagine you don't mean it but I will ask you not to put words in my mouth, if you don't mind.

I have not said that new stadia do not work. I have said that new stadia only work in the right circumstances. I have also said that the circumstances are not right for Liverpool.

The figures are not conjecture, they are based on published data (DeLoitte Money League and others). Although I have not checked your figures, I do not deny that they will yield the figure you suggest. However I would say that your figure of £31.87m is unlikely to be sufficient to cover the cost of borrowing on the new stadium and would therefore add nothing to the funds available for the team.

Naming rights are as applicable to a redeveloped Anfield as to a new stadium and perhaps even more so given the history of the site and the regard it is held in all around the world and are therefore only likely to alter the comparison in Anfield's favour.


Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #180 on: September 30, 2010, 01:00:26 pm »
It must make sense to move to a new ground otherwise surely all this time and money for years and years would of been wasted?

Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #181 on: September 30, 2010, 01:05:16 pm »
It must make sense to move to a new ground otherwise surely all this time and money for years and years would of been wasted?

It was not wasted if it secured a new owner who wanted to make loadsamoney from the fans (and we'd get rid of H&G but replace them with mark II) but yes, as it turns out it has been wasted.

Like everything alse about this whole sorry affair. It needs ripping up and starting again to get back to being where we need to be - being great.




« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:07:03 pm by TMOI »

Offline xerxes1

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #182 on: September 30, 2010, 01:06:11 pm »
I have not said that new stadia do not work. I have said that new stadia only work in the right circumstances. I have also said that the circumstances are not right for Liverpool.

Then we are arguing over very little. Any specific Stadium project which did not offer clear financial benefits over reamaing at Anfield would not get my, or I suspect wider, support.

Our sole point of dispute is that I surmise ( without putting words into your mouth, correct me if I am wrong) that you think that you have enough information to determine that no stadium move offers financial advanatges over staying put.

My view is that we simply do not have enough information to make that judgement because no-one has ever conducted a comprehensive costed study .
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Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #183 on: September 30, 2010, 01:17:14 pm »
Then we are arguing over very little. Any specific Stadium project which did not offer clear financial benefits over reamaing at Anfield would not get my, or I suspect wider, support.

Our sole point of dispute is that I surmise ( without putting words into your mouth, correct me if I am wrong) that you think that you have enough information to determine that no stadium move offers financial advanatges over staying put.

My view is that we simply do not have enough information to make that judgement because no-one has ever conducted a comprehensive costed study .

It is my strongly held view based on the known circumstances and the arguments set out that no stadium move offers financial advantage to the club over redeveloping Anfield and that there is sufficient information to seriously question the accepted wisdom that a new stadium is our saviour - rather the opposite, it will chain us to debt for the foreseeable future.

You can also be sure that a comprehensive and costed study has been done but I suggest done on the wrong premise and by the wrong people. As property specialists, football clubs make great tea.





« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:33:02 pm by TMOI »

Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #184 on: September 30, 2010, 01:20:40 pm »
It is my strongly held view based on the known circumstances and the arguments set out that no stadium move offers financial advantage to the club over redeveloping Anfield and that I have sufficient information to seriously question the accepted wisdom that a new stadium is our saviour - rather the opposite, it will chain us to debt for the foreseeable future.
But when that debt is paid off we will reap the benefits ?

Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #185 on: September 30, 2010, 01:29:13 pm »
But when that debt is paid off we will reap the benefits ?

I'm afraid not. The deal will relate to a life expectancy of the asset ie. when the debt is finished, the property will need redevelopment. 30 years? 60 or even 70 years is not unheard of.



« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:30:45 pm by TMOI »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #186 on: September 30, 2010, 01:33:19 pm »
The Arsenal comparison is used to point out the differences between them and LFC. Many people say it works at the Emirates so it must be ok. This is simplistic and dangerous.

Tickets prices will need to increase revenue from £940 per seat to £1430 per seat to make even the small margin illustrated above. Half an hour, a spread of ticket prices and a spreadsheet will quickly tell you there isn't going to be any decreases in any standard ticket prices to go to a new stadium - maybe a small number of 'boy's pen' prices and that's about it.

Even if those prices are achieved, very little extra goes to the club from a new stadium. It simply pays for construction or rather the investor's return or bank's interest on lending the money.



The income generated by a new stadium is not just about ticket sales. Does your spreadsheet include increased food and drink sales, increased retail turnover, stadium tours, museum entry and museum shop sales, conference and function use (I know concert use is excluded but that's to do with the impact of nighttime noise on local residents). All of which would be supported by the Anfield Plaza development.

I never bother trying to get a bevvie at half time at Anfield. It's a waste of time and energy. At the Emirates you can nip out, have a slash, get a pie and a pint and still get back to your seat before the game re-starts. Anfield must lose a fortune in potential food and drink sales.  A new stadium would also have a couple of good quality restaurants to maximise the take from corporate ticket holders. 

I had a look round Anfield on Saturday with another architect and there is potential for redeveloping the Main Stand and rebuilding the Anny Road to span over Anfield Road. Inside, under the Main Stand it is what it is - a nineteenth century Archie Leitch grandstand. It was never designed to cope with twenty-first century football.

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Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #187 on: September 30, 2010, 01:39:07 pm »
The income generated by a new stadium is not just about ticket sales. Does your spreadsheet include increased food and drink sales, increased retail turnover, stadium tours, museum entry and museum shop sales, conference and function use (I know concert use is excluded but that's to do with the impact of nighttime noise on local residents). All of which would be supported by the Anfield Plaza development.

I never bother trying to get a bevvie at half time at Anfield. It's a waste of time and energy. At the Emirates you can nip out, have a slash, get a pie and a pint and still get back to your seat before the game re-starts. Anfield must lose a fortune in potential food and drink sales.  A new stadium would also have a couple of good quality restaurants to maximise the take from corporate ticket holders. 

I had a look round Anfield on Saturday with another architect and there is potential for redeveloping the Main Stand and rebuilding the Anny Road to span over Anfield Road. Inside, under the Main Stand it is what it is - a nineteenth century Archie Leitch grandstand. It was never designed to cope with twenty-first century football.

Yes indeed, the revenue per seat includes all match-day revenue. You will know the latest stadia are designed to maximise income.

There's no doubt at all that Anfield can be refurbished/redeveloped to bring it up to these income expectations.


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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #188 on: September 30, 2010, 01:42:39 pm »
Yes indeed, the revenue per seat includes all match-day revenue. You will know the latest stadia are designed to maximise income.

There's no doubt at all that Anfield can be refurbished/redeveloped to bring it up to these income expectations.


2 sides of the ground maybe, but what about all the food/toilet facilities in the rest of the ground?

Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #189 on: September 30, 2010, 01:53:57 pm »
2 sides of the ground maybe, but what about all the food/toilet facilities in the rest of the ground?

Both the Kop and Centenary stand facilities are relatively new. It's not so hard to get a pie in the Kop and the Centenary has hospitality suites and boxes. The boxes were recently refurbished/altered as you know. The toilets are per regulation. Both stands are well-filled. Kop food can be extended (more Boot Room Restaurants) as could the Centenary (plenty of room at lower levels over the car park).

The really significant improvements can however come from redeveloping facilities and extending the Anfield Road and Main stands.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:57:26 pm by TMOI »

Offline LiamG

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #190 on: September 30, 2010, 02:05:03 pm »
They might be new, but compared to a brand new stadium the facilities we currently have you would see the difference

Have you ever been to Wembley? The sheer amount of food/drink and toilets they have to cater for people is just unbelievable

Are you against a new ground or do you just think that all avenues (inc redeveloping anfield) have not been properly investigated?

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #191 on: September 30, 2010, 02:05:49 pm »
Let's just concentrate on getting the new owners first eh...

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Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #192 on: September 30, 2010, 02:12:26 pm »
Let's just concentrate on getting the new owners first eh...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=263865.0

If you're happy to get new owners on the basis that they bleed the club of circa £32m a year to build a new stadium, you go ahead.


Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #193 on: September 30, 2010, 02:14:34 pm »
They might be new, but compared to a brand new stadium the facilities we currently have you would see the difference

Have you ever been to Wembley? The sheer amount of food/drink and toilets they have to cater for people is just unbelievable

Are you against a new ground or do you just think that all avenues (inc redeveloping anfield) have not been properly investigated?

I am clearly against a new ground. And Wembley cost £892m.




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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #194 on: September 30, 2010, 02:14:45 pm »
Either way if we stay at anfield or build a new stadium its still gonna require funding from somewhere

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #195 on: September 30, 2010, 02:16:26 pm »
If you're happy to get new owners on the basis that they bleed the club of circa £32m a year to build a new stadium, you go ahead.

Where have I said that? I am simply pointing you in the direction of something rather more productive than pontificating on a stadium.  We let Tom Hicks retain control and we could groundshare with fucking Tranmere.
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Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #196 on: September 30, 2010, 02:20:40 pm »
Where have I said that? I am simply pointing you in the direction of something rather more productive than pontificating on a stadium.  We let Tom Hicks retain control and we could groundshare with fucking Tranmere.

Noted, but the stadium issue is relevant to the ownership issue.  If you don't think so, that's up to you.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:23:59 pm by TMOI »

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #197 on: September 30, 2010, 02:48:35 pm »
It is my strongly held view based on the known circumstances and the arguments set out that no stadium move offers financial advantage to the club over redeveloping Anfield and that there is sufficient information to seriously question the accepted wisdom that a new stadium is our saviour - rather the opposite, it will chain us to debt for the foreseeable future.
We disagree.The relevant information has never been gathered and costed, see below.

Quote
You can also be sure that a comprehensive and costed study has been done but I suggest done on the wrong premise and by the wrong people. As property specialists, football clubs make great tea.

Before he left, when interviewed about the stadium project, Rick Parry specifically stated that a redeveloped Anfield had never been costed. A desktop exercise on what additional seating capacity / hospitality areas might be possible was all that had been done. He also confirmed that the 70k stadium had also never been costed. Furthermore, because no application for such a stadium has ever been submitted, the additional 106 , and further conditions which will be attached to the application cannot be costed. It is a matter of record that no costed Groundshare study has ever been completed.






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Offline TMOI

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #198 on: September 30, 2010, 03:24:53 pm »
We disagree.The relevant information has never been gathered and costed, see below.

Before he left, when interviewed about the stadium project, Rick Parry specifically stated that a redeveloped Anfield had never been costed. A desktop exercise on what additional seating capacity / hospitality areas might be possible was all that had been done. He also confirmed that the 70k stadium had also never been costed. Furthermore, because no application for such a stadium has ever been submitted, the additional 106 , and further conditions which will be attached to the application cannot be costed. It is a matter of record that no costed Groundshare study has ever been completed.

Yes, we disagree, the relevant information is in this thread and, as you yourself have admitted, it hangs together as a reasonable argument.

As stated elsewhere, I believe Mr Parry may have been speaking as circumstances at the time dictated. If it were necessary (and I don't believe it is, as no reference to detail construction cost is made or is it needed in order to compare the value of a new stadium with a redeveloped Anfield. The bare bones of the comparison are that you do not need to swap 45,000 paid-for seats with the debt arising from building those seats again).

If you really wanted to, it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to get a handle on the cost of a 70k stadium or for that matter a shared stadium, based on what we know already.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 06:51:40 pm by TMOI »

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Re: New stadium when we get new owners?
« Reply #199 on: September 30, 2010, 04:56:25 pm »
Interesting debate lads. I'm firmly in TMOI's camp on this. In the future, keeping costs under control is going to be even more vital to keeping the club financially viable and competitive on the pitch. For many reasons, such as poor transport links, waiting list exaggeration, and historical figures, I doubt we'd regularly fill a 60K+ stadium. Any extra revenue could easily end up servicing the debts on the costs of building the thing, plus there's the costs involved in actually moving (new stadium procedures, staff training, safety certs etc etc), plus greatly increased maintenance/running costs (physical maintenance, increased stewarding/policing etc etc). Anfield is a relatively cheap place to run and in the current financial climate that is a damn good thing.

Seems we all agree on one thing though. Whoever the new owners are, and whenever that is, there has to be a proper costing comparison done, with all variables included. Anyone who simply says 'new stadium = more revenue' is seriously over-simplifying and in danger of backing the horse that turns round and tramples us to death.