Author Topic: Lionel Messi  (Read 579098 times)

Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7520 on: November 10, 2017, 11:41:52 AM »
I'd also include Ronaldinho in that top tier of the last few decades though.

Yeah maybe. From the outside his impact on Barcelona in 2003-2006 seemed huge. There's probably other factors but he lifted that club after 3 really poor seasons from their perspective (4th, 4th and 6th league placed finishes between 2000/01 and 2002/03).

I'll have missed other players for sure. Before Messi and C.Ronaldo I always thought Zidane was the best footballer since Diego Maradona. Ronaldo was probably the next best. Both were amazing players. I think Messi and C.Ronaldo have eclipsed both. Not sure many others have eclipsed Zidane and Ronaldo but a few of have got to a similar level.
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Offline Yiannis

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7521 on: November 10, 2017, 11:55:53 AM »


The best players in my lifetime are Messi, C.Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona and Ronaldo. It's obvious that Zidane and Brazilian Ronaldo are 4th and 5th on that list. The other 3 are really close.

Totally agree with that list. Not the order. I totally get placing the Portuguese Ronaldo 2nd for the reasons you mentioned but my personal order would be Messi, Maradona, Ronaldo (Brazilian), Zidane, Ronaldo. Just  how I enjoyed watching them.

Have mentioned it lots of times but I will one more time. Cannot overstate how I absolute adored Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima. The prefect fucking striker. Could not wait to tune in every weekend and marvel him at Inter.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7522 on: November 10, 2017, 12:13:14 PM »

Have mentioned it lots of times but I will one more time. Cannot overstate how I absolute adored Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima. The prefect fucking striker. Could not wait to tune in every weekend and marvel him at Inter.

Unbelievable player. Was so, so good at a young age. From 1996 at Barcelona to his 1st major injury at Inter in 1999 he was absolutely phenomenal. He was still only 23 at that point and was definitely the best striker in the World. After his 2 major injuries he was still a very,very good player. Fundamental in a World Cup win and did really well at Real. However, he wasn't the best striker anymore. He was Messi/Ronaldo quality pre-injury. Post injury he was Robert Lewandowski level. Still one of the best strikers about at the time. But not a level above his peers like he'd been before. If he wouldn't have had those serious injuries I think he'd be on the same level as Messi and C.Ronaldo. Think you can say the same about Marco van Basten and, to a lesser degree, John Barnes.

Linking it back to a point I made earlier about the strength of Serie A in the late 1980's and early 90's. Ronaldo left Barcelona after 1 season to join Inter. That was on the back of some contract difficulties at Barcelona. However, can you imagine Messi or Ronaldo at the peak of their powers going to play for a Serie A club now? The sheer strength of that leagues, and probably the wages on offer, made it the go to league for any top start in the 1990's. By the time he'd recovered from his injuries in 2002, the tide had was slowly beginning to turn and La Liga (and in particular Real Madrid) were becoming a big attraction on the European stage.
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Offline Rysoph76

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7523 on: November 10, 2017, 12:22:07 PM »
Just to highlight your point about the strength of the league, this was Inter Milan's squad for the 99/00 season, a season in which they finished 4th and lost 10 out of 34 league games.

No.      Position   Player
1   Italy   GK   Angelo Peruzzi
2   Italy   DF   Christian Panucci
3   Italy   DF   Francesco Colonnese
4   Argentina   DF   Javier Zanetti
5   France   DF   Laurent Blanc
6   Italy   DF   Michele Serena
7   Italy   MF   Francesco Moriero
8   Federal Republic of Yugoslavia   MF   Vladimir Jugović
9   Brazil   FW   Ronaldo
10   Italy   FW   Roberto Baggio
11   Italy   DF   Salvatore Fresi
12   Italy   GK   Giorgio Frezzolini
13   Croatia   DF   Dario Šimić
14   Netherlands   MF   Clarence Seedorf
15   France   MF   Benoît Cauet
16   Romania   FW   Adrian Mutu
17   Ivory Coast   DF   Cyril Domoraud
18   Chile   FW   Iván Zamorano
19   Italy   FW   Nello Russo
20   Uruguay   FW   Álvaro Recoba
21   Italy   MF   Carlo Raffaele Trezzi
22   Italy   GK   Fabrizio Ferron
23   Italy   MF   Luigi Di Biagio
25   Uruguay   DF   Martín Rivas
26   Colombia   DF   Iván Córdoba
28   Italy   MF   Giuseppe Imburgia
30   Portugal   MF   Hugo Infante
31   Greece   DF   Grigoris Georgatos
32   Italy   FW   Christian Vieri

Not a bad squad!
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Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7524 on: November 10, 2017, 12:32:02 PM »
Just to highlight your point about the strength of the league, this was Inter Milan's squad for the 99/00 season, a season in which they finished 4th and lost 10 out of 34 league games.

No.      Position   Player
1   Italy   GK   Angelo Peruzzi
2   Italy   DF   Christian Panucci
3   Italy   DF   Francesco Colonnese
4   Argentina   DF   Javier Zanetti
5   France   DF   Laurent Blanc
6   Italy   DF   Michele Serena
7   Italy   MF   Francesco Moriero
8   Federal Republic of Yugoslavia   MF   Vladimir Jugović
9   Brazil   FW   Ronaldo
10   Italy   FW   Roberto Baggio
11   Italy   DF   Salvatore Fresi
12   Italy   GK   Giorgio Frezzolini
13   Croatia   DF   Dario Šimić
14   Netherlands   MF   Clarence Seedorf
15   France   MF   Benoît Cauet
16   Romania   FW   Adrian Mutu
17   Ivory Coast   DF   Cyril Domoraud
18   Chile   FW   Iván Zamorano
19   Italy   FW   Nello Russo
20   Uruguay   FW   Álvaro Recoba
21   Italy   MF   Carlo Raffaele Trezzi
22   Italy   GK   Fabrizio Ferron
23   Italy   MF   Luigi Di Biagio
25   Uruguay   DF   Martín Rivas
26   Colombia   DF   Iván Córdoba
28   Italy   MF   Giuseppe Imburgia
30   Portugal   MF   Hugo Infante
31   Greece   DF   Grigoris Georgatos
32   Italy   FW   Christian Vieri

Not a bad squad!


Ronaldo, Baggio, Zamarano, Christian Vieri, Recoba and Mutu as the striking option for the team that came 4th! Zamarano and Baggio were early 30s at this point but still playing at a good level. The other 4 would have been early to mid 20's and been in their prime.

Their midfield looks a bit weak in comparison to be fair. Seedorf, Di Baggio, Jugovic and Cauet wasn't a bad quartet though. Just not the same depth as up front.
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7525 on: November 10, 2017, 04:14:23 PM »
Just to highlight your point about the strength of the league, this was Inter Milan's squad for the 99/00 season, a season in which they finished 4th and lost 10 out of 34 league games.

No.      Position   Player
1   Italy   GK   Angelo Peruzzi
2   Italy   DF   Christian Panucci
3   Italy   DF   Francesco Colonnese
4   Argentina   DF   Javier Zanetti
5   France   DF   Laurent Blanc
6   Italy   DF   Michele Serena
7   Italy   MF   Francesco Moriero
8   Federal Republic of Yugoslavia   MF   Vladimir Jugović
9   Brazil   FW   Ronaldo
10   Italy   FW   Roberto Baggio
11   Italy   DF   Salvatore Fresi
12   Italy   GK   Giorgio Frezzolini
13   Croatia   DF   Dario Šimić
14   Netherlands   MF   Clarence Seedorf
15   France   MF   Benoît Cauet
16   Romania   FW   Adrian Mutu
17   Ivory Coast   DF   Cyril Domoraud
18   Chile   FW   Iván Zamorano
19   Italy   FW   Nello Russo
20   Uruguay   FW   Álvaro Recoba
21   Italy   MF   Carlo Raffaele Trezzi
22   Italy   GK   Fabrizio Ferron
23   Italy   MF   Luigi Di Biagio
25   Uruguay   DF   Martín Rivas
26   Colombia   DF   Iván Córdoba
28   Italy   MF   Giuseppe Imburgia
30   Portugal   MF   Hugo Infante
31   Greece   DF   Grigoris Georgatos
32   Italy   FW   Christian Vieri

Not a bad squad!

Looking back at the squads like that is not accurate though. At different times, different players were at their peak/poor/injured etc. And some teams just weren't teams, they were collections of players.

Reminds me of people looking back at AC Milan midfield in 00s and wondering how did they win so few league titles. On paper, Seedorf, Pirlo, Gattuso and Kaka etc. look great. Yet, Barca with Edmilson, Van Bommel, Iniesta and Ronaldinho completely dominated that midfield in their home turf.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2005/matches/round=2204/match=1107456/postmatch/lineups/index.html

Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7526 on: November 10, 2017, 08:57:43 PM »
Looking back at the squads like that is not accurate though. At different times, different players were at their peak/poor/injured etc. And some teams just weren't teams, they were collections of players.

Reminds me of people looking back at AC Milan midfield in 00s and wondering how did they win so few league titles. On paper, Seedorf, Pirlo, Gattuso and Kaka etc. look great. Yet, Barca with Edmilson, Van Bommel, Iniesta and Ronaldinho completely dominated that midfield in their home turf.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2005/matches/round=2204/match=1107456/postmatch/lineups/index.html


I agree that taking a squad in isolation only gives you a snapshot. As does comparing how 2 teams midfield compared in a single game  :P

I suppose the over arching point is that Maradona played in a competition that was much, much stronger in depth than what Messi and Ronaldo have to face now. Serie A was the league that could attract virtually all the top stars. It was the best league with the most money. Not just 2 or 3 teams either. We are talking 7 or 8 teams who had a load of top stars playing for them.

The late 80's and early 90's was also a time when there was a greater spread of top talent. Every top team in Europe had 14/15 international rather than 25. You had a situation where there was a concentration of the absolute top talent within a single league but that top talent was then spread across the league. Teams like Sampdoria had truly top players playing for them even though they weren't a big club in Italy. Look at the early to mid 90's Parma team that never won a Serie A title. Some absolutely outstanding players.

Football since the mid 2000's has not been like that. The good thing is that the top players seem to be spread more evenly across 4 or 5 leagues. I believe there is genuinely World Class players playing in every one of the top 5 leagues. The issue is that talent is concentrated within a couple of teams within each league. That make the depth of each domestic competition quite poor.

That's the main reason why i find it hard to rate Messi or C.Ronaldo against Maradona. At a push I'd probably say Messi edges out C.Ronaldo. It's a wafer thin difference though. Is Maradona better than Messi or C.Ronaldo? Maybe not. But he's better than any other player thats played in that period between the mid 80's and now.

This would be the best team I've seen since watching football:

                                   Buffon

Thruam        Desially       Baresi         Maldini


                Xavi          Matthäus     Zidane

    C.Ronaldo        Maradona           Messi

Subs: Schmeichel, Cafu, Cannavaro, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, van Basten, Ronaldo

The front 3 plus Maldini, Zidane and Matthäus are absolute shoe-ins. On another day I could easily change the other 5 players. Same with the bench. Really wanted to find a place for Batistuta but he's not as good as Ronaldo or van Basten!
                     
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Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7527 on: November 10, 2017, 09:03:19 PM »
I agree that taking a squad in isolation only gives you a snapshot. As does comparing how 2 teams midfield compared in a single game  :P

I suppose the over arching point is that Maradona played in a competition that was much, much stronger in depth than what Messi and Ronaldo have to face now. Serie A was the league that could attract virtually all the top stars. It was the best league with the most money. Not just 2 or 3 teams either. We are talking 7 or 8 teams who had a load of top stars playing for them.

The late 80's and early 90's was also a time when there was a greater spread of top talent. Every top team in Europe had 14/15 international rather than 25. You had a situation where there was a concentration of the absolute top talent within a single league but that top talent was then spread across the league. Teams like Sampdoria had truly top players playing for them even though they weren't a big club in Italy. Look at the early to mid 90's Parma team that never won a Serie A title. Some absolutely outstanding players.

Football since the mid 2000's has not been like that. The good thing is that the top players seem to be spread more evenly across 4 or 5 leagues. I believe there is genuinely World Class players playing in every one of the top 5 leagues. The issue is that talent is concentrated within a couple of teams within each league. That make the depth of each domestic competition quite poor.

That's the main reason why i find it hard to rate Messi or C.Ronaldo against Maradona. At a push I'd probably say Messi edges out C.Ronaldo. It's a wafer thin difference though. Is Maradona better than Messi or C.Ronaldo? Maybe not. But he's better than any other player thats played in that period between the mid 80's and now.

This would be the best team I've seen since watching football:

                                   Buffon

Thruam        Desially       Baresi         Maldini


                Xavi          Matthäus     Zidane

    C.Ronaldo        Maradona           Messi

Subs: Schmeichel, Cafu, Cannavaro, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, van Basten, Ronaldo

The front 3 plus Maldini, Zidane and Matthäus are absolute shoe-ins. On another day I could easily change the other 5 players. Same with the bench. Really wanted to find a place for Batistuta but he's not as good as Ronaldo or van Basten!
                     

Give over. Maradona cant be shoehorned in at CF at the expense of Brazil Ronaldo. Get Xavi dropped

Offline Jookie

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7528 on: November 10, 2017, 09:51:56 PM »
Give over. Maradona cant be shoehorned in at CF at the expense of Brazil Ronaldo. Get Xavi dropped

I know he's not a CF. It's a very flexible front 3!

Xavi would have to be the play that drops out to accommodate Ronaldo.
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Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7529 on: November 10, 2017, 09:57:27 PM »
I know he's not a CF. It's a very flexible front 3!

Xavi would have to be the play that drops out to accommodate Ronaldo.

I would swap Gazza for Matteus but it’s opinions mate. Your team is nearly mine apart from that and Ronaldo. I prefer Buffon too but serious arguments for the manc with the red nose could be made. Tony Adams/Desailly?

Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7530 on: November 10, 2017, 10:11:09 PM »
I agree that taking a squad in isolation only gives you a snapshot. As does comparing how 2 teams midfield compared in a single game  :P

I suppose the over arching point is that Maradona played in a competition that was much, much stronger in depth than what Messi and Ronaldo have to face now. Serie A was the league that could attract virtually all the top stars. It was the best league with the most money. Not just 2 or 3 teams either. We are talking 7 or 8 teams who had a load of top stars playing for them.

The late 80's and early 90's was also a time when there was a greater spread of top talent. Every top team in Europe had 14/15 international rather than 25. You had a situation where there was a concentration of the absolute top talent within a single league but that top talent was then spread across the league. Teams like Sampdoria had truly top players playing for them even though they weren't a big club in Italy. Look at the early to mid 90's Parma team that never won a Serie A title. Some absolutely outstanding players.

Football since the mid 2000's has not been like that. The good thing is that the top players seem to be spread more evenly across 4 or 5 leagues. I believe there is genuinely World Class players playing in every one of the top 5 leagues. The issue is that talent is concentrated within a couple of teams within each league. That make the depth of each domestic competition quite poor.

That's the main reason why i find it hard to rate Messi or C.Ronaldo against Maradona. At a push I'd probably say Messi edges out C.Ronaldo. It's a wafer thin difference though. Is Maradona better than Messi or C.Ronaldo? Maybe not. But he's better than any other player thats played in that period between the mid 80's and now.

This would be the best team I've seen since watching football:

                                   Buffon

Thruam        Desially       Baresi         Maldini


                Xavi          Matthäus     Zidane

    C.Ronaldo        Maradona           Messi

Subs: Schmeichel, Cafu, Cannavaro, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, van Basten, Ronaldo

The front 3 plus Maldini, Zidane and Matthäus are absolute shoe-ins. On another day I could easily change the other 5 players. Same with the bench. Really wanted to find a place for Batistuta but he's not as good as Ronaldo or van Basten!
                     

Iniesta is/was better than Zidane in all facets of the game and I love Zidane who was the best player circa 98-2004. But Iniesta at his peak was better imo and achieved more with both club and country.

Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7531 on: November 10, 2017, 10:13:14 PM »
Iniesta is/was better than Zidane in all facets of the game and I love Zidane who was the best player circa 98-2004. But Iniesta at his peak was better imo and achieved more with both club and country.

Hahaha. Amazing.

Is that a wind up?

‘all facets’ hahahahahaaa

All facets apart from:

Penalties
Free Kicks
Running a game with inferior players (Brazil 2006 w/c)
Owning a game
Playing outside of a dominant Barca/Spain
Vital goals
Headers
Hardness

..... but apart from that
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:51:58 PM by CrasherKid79 »

Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7532 on: November 10, 2017, 10:57:50 PM »
Hahaha. Amazing.

Is that a wind up?

‘all facets’ hahahahahaaa

All facets apart from:

Penalties
Free Kicks
Running a game with inferior players (Brazil 2006 w/c)
Owning a game
Playing outside of a dominant Barca/Spain


No not a wind up at all.

Zidane wasn't as consistent as Iniesta in regular league matches. In big games he was the master no doubt. In terms of consistency on over the course of a season Iniesta trumps Zidane.

Both were big game players. Iniesta even more so though he has more than a dozen great performances in the CL knockout stages through the years, including semis and finals. He is the only Barcelona player to have played in all CL-winning finals, excelling in each and every one.

Zidane may have had the better vision and better long balls, but on everything else, Iniesta is ahead - first touch, control, dribbling, tight spaces.

I mean I only give Iniesta the edge by an extremely narrow margin so from my standpoint it's certainly not a diminishment of Zidane and of course a lot of people do disagree with me, which I accept.




Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7533 on: November 10, 2017, 11:06:33 PM »
No not a wind up at all.

Zidane wasn't as consistent as Iniesta in regular league matches. In big games he was the master no doubt. In terms of consistency on over the course of a season Iniesta trumps Zidane.

Both were big game players. Iniesta even more so though he has more than a dozen great performances in the CL knockout stages through the years, including semis and finals. He is the only Barcelona player to have played in all CL-winning finals, excelling in each and every one.

Zidane may have had the better vision and better long balls, but on everything else, Iniesta is ahead - first touch, control, dribbling, tight spaces.

I mean I only give Iniesta the edge by an extremely narrow margin so from my standpoint it's certainly not a diminishment of Zidane and of course a lot of people do disagree with me, which I accept.

You realise Zidane didn’t play in a dominant Barca team?

France were dodgy in 2006 too

...... UTTER, UTTER NUTTER
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 11:25:09 PM by CrasherKid79 »

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7534 on: November 11, 2017, 06:34:59 AM »
No not a wind up at all.

Zidane wasn't as consistent as Iniesta in regular league matches. In big games he was the master no doubt. In terms of consistency on over the course of a season Iniesta trumps Zidane.

Both were big game players. Iniesta even more so though he has more than a dozen great performances in the CL knockout stages through the years, including semis and finals. He is the only Barcelona player to have played in all CL-winning finals, excelling in each and every one.

Zidane may have had the better vision and better long balls, but on everything else, Iniesta is ahead - first touch, control, dribbling, tight spaces.

I mean I only give Iniesta the edge by an extremely narrow margin so from my standpoint it's certainly not a diminishment of Zidane and of course a lot of people do disagree with me, which I accept.
Stop it.

Iniesta better than Zidane?

There's not a single facet of the game that Iniesta trumps Zidane in.

Zidane bossed a World Cup at 34. Iniesta hasn't bossed a La Liga game since his 20s.

Iniesta has 20 goals for arguably the most dominant international team of all time. He has 60 goals while playing for arguably the most dominant club team of all time. 1 in 10 for a midfielder (club and international) is wholly average.

Roy Keane has half the goals, in half the games, in a far, far, far, far, far inferior international team.

Scored more at club level too.

Iniesta is the single most overrated footballer of all time.

Offline Vinay

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7535 on: November 11, 2017, 08:15:19 AM »
A thread on Messi is now hosting a detailed discussion on Inter Milan's squad from 18 years ago. And now a masturbatory argument on who is better: Iniesta or Zidane!

Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7536 on: November 11, 2017, 09:22:49 AM »
A thread on Messi is now hosting a detailed discussion on Inter Milan's squad from 18 years ago. And now a masturbatory argument on who is better: Iniesta or Zidane!

He’s not bad that Messi lad  ;)

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7537 on: November 11, 2017, 09:23:26 AM »
A thread on Messi is now hosting a detailed discussion on Inter Milan's squad from 18 years ago. And now a masturbatory argument on who is better: Iniesta or Zidane!

Iniesta
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7538 on: November 11, 2017, 09:27:08 AM »
Iniesta
You've had a good Friday night.

Offline darragh85

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7539 on: November 11, 2017, 01:35:29 PM »
Just to highlight your point about the strength of the league, this was Inter Milan's squad for the 99/00 season, a season in which they finished 4th and lost 10 out of 34 league games.

No.      Position   Player
1   Italy   GK   Angelo Peruzzi
2   Italy   DF   Christian Panucci
3   Italy   DF   Francesco Colonnese
4   Argentina   DF   Javier Zanetti
5   France   DF   Laurent Blanc
6   Italy   DF   Michele Serena
7   Italy   MF   Francesco Moriero
8   Federal Republic of Yugoslavia   MF   Vladimir Jugović
9   Brazil   FW   Ronaldo
10   Italy   FW   Roberto Baggio
11   Italy   DF   Salvatore Fresi
12   Italy   GK   Giorgio Frezzolini
13   Croatia   DF   Dario Šimić
14   Netherlands   MF   Clarence Seedorf
15   France   MF   Benoît Cauet
16   Romania   FW   Adrian Mutu
17   Ivory Coast   DF   Cyril Domoraud
18   Chile   FW   Iván Zamorano
19   Italy   FW   Nello Russo
20   Uruguay   FW   Álvaro Recoba
21   Italy   MF   Carlo Raffaele Trezzi
22   Italy   GK   Fabrizio Ferron
23   Italy   MF   Luigi Di Biagio
25   Uruguay   DF   Martín Rivas
26   Colombia   DF   Iván Córdoba
28   Italy   MF   Giuseppe Imburgia
30   Portugal   MF   Hugo Infante
31   Greece   DF   Grigoris Georgatos
32   Italy   FW   Christian Vieri

Not a bad squad!

Lazio and Roma had awesome sides back then too not to mention  Juventus and AC Milan.

was it 99/00 when Lazio pipped Inter to the scudetto on the last day or was that the following season. That misfortune of a defender for Inter had a horror show

Fabrizio Ferron boy!. Sampdorias number one for a while

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7540 on: November 12, 2017, 06:39:58 AM »
Hahaha. Amazing.

Is that a wind up?

‘all facets’ hahahahahaaa

All facets apart from:

Penalties
Free Kicks
Running a game with inferior players (Brazil 2006 w/c)
Owning a game
Playing outside of a dominant Barca/Spain
Vital goals
Headers
Hardness

..... but apart from that

You can say all that for Cristiano too, when you compare him with Messi. He beats him in almost everything : speed, headers, no weak leg, physical, more athletic, penalties, power shot etc. Messi in fact doesn't have a recognizable trait. Ronaldinho for example was a better dribbler. But we know Messi is the greatest of all time, or at least in the top3.

It's the same when you compare Zidane with Iniesta. You can't really say at what he was/is better - but for me he simply is.
 
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7541 on: November 12, 2017, 09:32:37 AM »
You can say all that for Cristiano too, when you compare him with Messi. He beats him in almost everything : speed, headers, no weak leg, physical, more athletic, penalties, power shot etc. Messi in fact doesn't have a recognizable trait. Ronaldinho for example was a better dribbler. But we know Messi is the greatest of all time, or at least in the top3.

It's the same when you compare Zidane with Iniesta. You can't really say at what he was/is better - but for me he simply is.
 

I wouldn't say Ronaldo beats Messi in "almost everything". Messi clearly has better;

close control;
acceleration over short distances;
dribbling;
agility;
passing;
vision.

I'd also say Messi is a better dribbler than Ronaldinho was too. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo both were/are better at some things than Messi, but Messi definitely does have "recognizable traits".
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:34:35 AM by Xabi Gerrard »

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7542 on: November 12, 2017, 03:51:32 PM »
You can say all that for Cristiano too, when you compare him with Messi. He beats him in almost everything : speed, headers, no weak leg, physical, more athletic, penalties, power shot etc. Messi in fact doesn't have a recognizable trait. Ronaldinho for example was a better dribbler. But we know Messi is the greatest of all time, or at least in the top3.

It's the same when you compare Zidane with Iniesta. You can't really say at what he was/is better - but for me he simply is.
Jesus wept on what you're saying about Messi.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7543 on: November 12, 2017, 04:04:24 PM »
Just to highlight your point about the strength of the league, this was Inter Milan's squad for the 99/00 season, a season in which they finished 4th and lost 10 out of 34 league games.

No.      Position   Player
1   Italy   GK   Angelo Peruzzi
2   Italy   DF   Christian Panucci
3   Italy   DF   Francesco Colonnese
4   Argentina   DF   Javier Zanetti
5   France   DF   Laurent Blanc
6   Italy   DF   Michele Serena
7   Italy   MF   Francesco Moriero
8   Federal Republic of Yugoslavia   MF   Vladimir Jugović
9   Brazil   FW   Ronaldo
10   Italy   FW   Roberto Baggio
11   Italy   DF   Salvatore Fresi
12   Italy   GK   Giorgio Frezzolini
13   Croatia   DF   Dario Šimić
14   Netherlands   MF   Clarence Seedorf
15   France   MF   Benoît Cauet
16   Romania   FW   Adrian Mutu
17   Ivory Coast   DF   Cyril Domoraud
18   Chile   FW   Iván Zamorano
19   Italy   FW   Nello Russo
20   Uruguay   FW   Álvaro Recoba
21   Italy   MF   Carlo Raffaele Trezzi
22   Italy   GK   Fabrizio Ferron
23   Italy   MF   Luigi Di Biagio
25   Uruguay   DF   Martín Rivas
26   Colombia   DF   Iván Córdoba
28   Italy   MF   Giuseppe Imburgia
30   Portugal   MF   Hugo Infante
31   Greece   DF   Grigoris Georgatos
32   Italy   FW   Christian Vieri

Not a bad squad!
I remember that Inter team just before the world cup getting robbed of the title,i think they were leading Serie A at the time.

Inter playing away at Juve near the end of the season and getting the most blatant stonewall penalty that would have been a equaliser and ref played on and Juve went straight up the pitch and got a penalty.. although they missed the penalty the ref was scandalous,from that day i always knew Juve had some influence over the refs.

2:08 is the penalty decisions. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/SKbngbYD8o4" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/SKbngbYD8o4</a>
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7544 on: November 12, 2017, 04:13:28 PM »
Ronaldinho >>>> Any footballer mentioned on this page.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7545 on: November 12, 2017, 04:23:17 PM »
Ronaldinho >>>> Any footballer mentioned on this page.

Did you see the piece about him in the Guardian the other day? Brings back loads of great memories. I disagree with you that he was the best, but he was probably the most enjoyable to watch!

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7546 on: November 12, 2017, 04:23:59 PM »
Stop it.

Iniesta better than Zidane?

There's not a single facet of the game that Iniesta trumps Zidane in.

Zidane bossed a World Cup at 34. Iniesta hasn't bossed a La Liga game since his 20s.

Iniesta has 20 goals for arguably the most dominant international team of all time. He has 60 goals while playing for arguably the most dominant club team of all time. 1 in 10 for a midfielder (club and international) is wholly average.

Roy Keane has half the goals, in half the games, in a far, far, far, far, far inferior international team.

Scored more at club level too.

Iniesta is the single most overrated footballer of all time.

yes there are, pressing and work rate.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7547 on: November 12, 2017, 05:00:16 PM »
Iniesta is the single most overrated footballer of all time.

This says more about how little you understand football than it does about Iniesta.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7548 on: November 12, 2017, 05:12:56 PM »
This says more about how little you understand football than it does about Iniesta.

Iniesta is a good player but 30 years down the road, will anybody even mention Iniesta as one of the best player ever? Will anybody even mentioned to their grandchildren of Iniesta other than Spanish/Catalonians? If I were to live that long, I will tell my grandchildren how amazing both Ronaldos were (although I might still have the dislike for the Greasy haired one).

I will also be still amazed at how Messi made a mockery out of brilliant defenders. I will still remember how magic Ronaldinho is with his goal at Stamford Bridge still the best ever scored in my mind. I will still remember how brilliant Zidane was in the World Cup and Champions League Finals.

Maybe if my memory is still good I will tell them how good Rivaldo was with his wicked left foot and what a brilliant striker of the ball Gabriel Omar Batistuta is. But Iniesta will never cross my mind.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7549 on: November 12, 2017, 05:21:34 PM »
Iniesta is a good player but 30 years down the road, will anybody even mention Iniesta as one of the best player ever? Will anybody even mentioned to their grandchildren of Iniesta other than Spanish/Catalonians? If I were to live that long, I will tell my grandchildren how amazing both Ronaldos were (although I might still have the dislike for the Greasy haired one).

I will also be still amazed at how Messi made a mockery out of brilliant defenders. I will still remember how magic Ronaldinho is with his goal at Stamford Bridge still the best ever scored in my mind. I will still remember how brilliant Zidane was in the World Cup and Champions League Finals.

Maybe if my memory is still good I will tell them how good Rivaldo was with his wicked left foot and what a brilliant striker of the ball Gabriel Omar Batistuta is. But Iniesta will never cross my mind.

I'll definitely tell my imaginary grandchildren about how good he was - I don't just appreciate highlight players though, I've got a LOT of time for players that make the whole thing tick, like Iniesta.

re: mentioning whether he is "one of the best player ever", it depends how you classify that. He's not in the top 5 players ever (imo) or even the top 10 or probably top 20. He's definitely one of the top players of this generation though. In Stevie's most recent autobiography he talks very candidly about how good he (Stevie) was as a player - he admits he wasn't as good as Iniesta and Xavi. Now whether you agree with Stevie or not, to even be considered to be that good pretty much makes him a footballing legend in my eyes and well worth gushing about, both now and 30 years down the line.

Either way, calling him "the single most overrated player of all time" (which is what I was commenting on) clearly shows someone who doesn't understand football.

Offline Advil

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7550 on: November 12, 2017, 05:29:53 PM »
I'll definitely tell my imaginary grandchildren about how good he was - I don't just appreciate highlight players though, I've got a LOT of time for players that make the whole thing tick, like Iniesta.

re: mentioning whether he is "one of the best player ever", it depends how you classify that. He's not in the top 5 players ever (imo) or even the top 10 or probably top 20. He's definitely one of the top players of this generation though. In Stevie's most recent autobiography he talks very candidly about how good he (Stevie) was as a player - he admits he wasn't as good as Iniesta and Xavi. Now whether you agree with Stevie or not, to even be considered to be that good pretty much makes him a footballing legend in my eyes and well worth gushing about, both now and 30 years down the line.

Either way, calling him "the single most overrated player of all time" (which is what I was commenting on) clearly shows someone who doesn't understand football.

Good reply, maybe you appreciate football more on the built up play and myself more on the trickery/finishing. To each his own I guess.

Anyway I do not agree with 'the single most overrated player of all time'. Iniesta is a very good player and a big reason why the Barca/Spanish team has been the most successful team this millennium.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7551 on: November 12, 2017, 05:44:12 PM »
Good reply, maybe you appreciate football more on the built up play and myself more on the trickery/finishing. To each his own I guess.

Anyway I do not agree with 'the single most overrated player of all time'. Iniesta is a very good player and a big reason why the Barca/Spanish team has been the most successful team this millennium.

Don't forget about the time he broke Chelsea hearts - how can't you love anyone who did that!! That is was so against the run of play and so undeserved makes it all the more sweet.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/qj3V28dADZU" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/qj3V28dADZU</a>

I really enjoy how he's the rock that all the flashier players are built on, but when they all fail to deliver in the biggest moments (see this game and the 2010 WC Final) he just goes "fuck this" and does it himself. Not saying he's as good as ZZ, but he's not far off.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7552 on: November 12, 2017, 06:51:57 PM »
Jesus wept on what you're saying about Messi.

Messi is a playmaker and goalscorer, Ronaldo now is only a goalscorer, and thats why Messi is better. He can probably play in midfield until hes 35 injury permitting.



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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7553 on: November 12, 2017, 07:13:42 PM »
Since we are in the Messi thread, I am sure Messi would love, love, LOVE to have even current Iniesta as his Argentina teammate. So would most NTs in the world. Italy NT manager, Allegri etc. have all been saying Iniesta's one of the best in the world.

He isn't as good as he was in his prime, but even then, watching him for Spanish NT, you see how other teams struggle to deal with him. His nonchalant one-touch passing under all sorts of pressure in tight spaces... Most other players fill their pants, no matter how good they are. De Bruyne, who is clearly one of the best in the world right now, spent first 50-60 min of the Napoli (away) match passing to the opponent players due to pressing. Verratti was lost in midfield vs Spain. And these are some of the best midfielders in the world right now. Which makes me think that if you find a good, specific role for him, Iniesta would still do a wonderful job for most teams.

Not at all surprised that Juventus have been trying to sign him. They know how to work with older players. He goes there, and he becomes their best midfielder right away.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7554 on: November 12, 2017, 07:28:52 PM »
'Iniesta, why the fuss?'
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7555 on: November 12, 2017, 09:10:16 PM »
I agree that taking a squad in isolation only gives you a snapshot. As does comparing how 2 teams midfield compared in a single game  :P

I suppose the over arching point is that Maradona played in a competition that was much, much stronger in depth than what Messi and Ronaldo have to face now. Serie A was the league that could attract virtually all the top stars. It was the best league with the most money. Not just 2 or 3 teams either. We are talking 7 or 8 teams who had a load of top stars playing for them.

The late 80's and early 90's was also a time when there was a greater spread of top talent. Every top team in Europe had 14/15 international rather than 25. You had a situation where there was a concentration of the absolute top talent within a single league but that top talent was then spread across the league. Teams like Sampdoria had truly top players playing for them even though they weren't a big club in Italy. Look at the early to mid 90's Parma team that never won a Serie A title. Some absolutely outstanding players.

Football since the mid 2000's has not been like that. The good thing is that the top players seem to be spread more evenly across 4 or 5 leagues. I believe there is genuinely World Class players playing in every one of the top 5 leagues. The issue is that talent is concentrated within a couple of teams within each league. That make the depth of each domestic competition quite poor.

That's the main reason why i find it hard to rate Messi or C.Ronaldo against Maradona. At a push I'd probably say Messi edges out C.Ronaldo. It's a wafer thin difference though. Is Maradona better than Messi or C.Ronaldo? Maybe not. But he's better than any other player thats played in that period between the mid 80's and now.

This would be the best team I've seen since watching football:

                                   Buffon

Thruam        Desially       Baresi         Maldini


                Xavi          Matthäus     Zidane

    C.Ronaldo        Maradona           Messi

Subs: Schmeichel, Cafu, Cannavaro, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, van Basten, Ronaldo

The front 3 plus Maldini, Zidane and Matthäus are absolute shoe-ins. On another day I could easily change the other 5 players. Same with the bench. Really wanted to find a place for Batistuta but he's not as good as Ronaldo or van Basten!
                     

That is a fucking shit hot squad.
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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7556 on: November 12, 2017, 09:16:27 PM »
'Iniesta, why the fuss?'
Good question.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7557 on: November 12, 2017, 09:22:34 PM »
Iniesta is a good player but 30 years down the road, will anybody even mention Iniesta as one of the best player ever? Will anybody even mentioned to their grandchildren of Iniesta other than Spanish/Catalonians? If I were to live that long, I will tell my grandchildren how amazing both Ronaldos were (although I might still have the dislike for the Greasy haired one).

I will also be still amazed at how Messi made a mockery out of brilliant defenders. I will still remember how magic Ronaldinho is with his goal at Stamford Bridge still the best ever scored in my mind. I will still remember how brilliant Zidane was in the World Cup and Champions League Finals.

Maybe if my memory is still good I will tell them how good Rivaldo was with his wicked left foot and what a brilliant striker of the ball Gabriel Omar Batistuta is. But Iniesta will never cross my mind.

Well, Iniesta will cross the minds of historians at least as he has scored a winning goal in a World Cup Final. Not many people can say that.

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7558 on: November 12, 2017, 09:33:35 PM »
This would be the best team I've seen since watching football:

                                   Buffon

Thruam        Desially       Baresi         Maldini


                Xavi          Matthäus     Zidane

    C.Ronaldo        Maradona           Messi

Subs: Schmeichel, Cafu, Cannavaro, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, van Basten, Ronaldo
Thuram, Desailly, Cafu, Zidane and the shell of Ronaldo were all on the pitch at the same time in the 1998 World Cup Final.  Any advance on five?

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #7559 on: November 12, 2017, 09:38:38 PM »
Thuram, Desailly, Cafu, Zidane and the shell of Ronaldo were all on the pitch at the same time in the 1998 World Cup Final.  Any advance on five?

From Jookie's squad do you mean? Were Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Ronaldinho, Zidane and Cannavaro ever all on the pitch at the same time during an El Clasico to make six? I've got a feeling ZZ and Cannavaro perhaps never crossed paths at Madrid though so not sure.