Topic: Shite poem and rambling speech thread

[Driver 8]

Sorry I'm struggling to see how any implicit parallel was drawn between Mandela and Rafa. The way I read the OP, there was a quote from Teddy Roosevelt which stood alone, a passing reference to Mandela drawing comfort from the same speech when in Prison and then a poem. Not sure how the OP making reference to Mandela drawing comfort from the Roosevelt speech (which the OP already quoted on its own) can be construed to imply a parallel with Rafa. That seems like stretching it...unless u can break it down for me, maybe I've missed something...

Drawing two separate passages, both acknowledged as relating to Mandela, and redeploying them in relation to Benitez - that doesn't seem like creating some form of implicit parallel?

[Carlito Roberto]

The circumstances in which something was written aren't necessarily what's important. There are a lot of other issues when you want to talk about what something like a poem means (meaning is never the sole preserve of the author, some critics go as far as to say it has precious little to do with the author)- you have to ask what it's about in the wider historical and cultural context which produced it, why people read it, who read it. If it's something that is being quoted or reproduced in a later context then it's legitimate to ask stuff like why now? Why this context? From there you can try to unpack the ideological motivations behind it - ugghh, sorry, I'm sort of slipping into academic-type speak there.

Anyway, like I said, no offence meant - just offering my perspective, that's all.

Here's me thinking this was a football forum!

[Driver 8]

Mandela did give it to a sports team to inspire them to be fair, it didnt have anything to do with Mandela's political issues

Sport was a very politicized thing in South Africa, and I think he did have a political intent there - as some sort of inspire the new nation type thing.

[jckliew]

Go in peace..........

[Driver 8]

Here's me thinking this was a football forum!

I promise never to post anything like that again, so long as I shall use RAWK!

[shanklyboy]

So sayeth The Doc.

Excellent stuff mate.

[Paul JH]

Why? Do you doubt I've been supporting the club for 35 years? I'm 42, and my family have been reds since the early 1900's. What the fuck else am I supposed to be?

I'm in agreement with you on the general thrust of things, by the way. I'd say it's pretty imperative that he stays.

What he doesn't need is this ridiculous cod-mythologising crap. It doesn't fit -he's a highly paid manager, not an imprisoned activist. It might be a stressful job, he definitely has been poorly served by the media (take a look at Spurs' spending since he came, or Villa's net spending over the last three years), but you're really pushing it.

Sorry Dr C, I've got to agree with this (maybe not as harshly). I agree with your sentiment, I really, really do, but these kind of threads always seem a little OTT to me. Quoting historical figures, presidents, Nostradamus, Henry V, General Patton or whoever in regards to football always seems a little, well, ridiculous to me.

[covi2k2]

Sport was a very politicized thing in South Africa, and I think he did have a political intent there - as some sort of inspire the new nation type thing.

I think he just wanted his team to win, no ?

[Carlito Roberto]

I promise never to post anything like that again, so long as I shall use RAWK!

Haha only messing mate!

[4pool]

Dr Cornwallis

I liked it.

But with so many things nowadays, one has to be politically correct to appease all because someone will find a grievance in about everything.

[anil]

 
Begone with you

I'm with you Doc.

That Mudface wouldn't know a poetree if it fell on him.

[Paul JH]

But with so many things nowadays, one has to be politically correct to appease all because someone will find a grievance in about everything.

What's being politically correct got to do with ANYTHING? I happen to think it's a little OTT, although DO agree with the sentiment, political correctness has fuck all to do with it.

[Cruiser]

Great post Dr Cornwallis.

It takes guts to be brave enough to take up the challenge and fight to the bitter end. Only cowards sit on the sidelines berating those who did try.

Fuck the media and all the critics!

Hail Rafa!

[Driver 8]

I think he just wanted his team to win, no ?

Why did he want them to win? Because he just really liked rugby? Or because, at a difficult transitional time for SA, he could see that the team stood as a symbol for the nation, and by being successful they could provide a symbol for the nation to rally around - which would serve the political project of the new SA?

That's Mandela using sport in a positive way. To take an example people would be more cynical about, how will some feel this summer, when they see (likely) David Cameron coming out draped in the England flag (well, maybe not literally!) Would you say he just wants his team to win? Or do you think there's a political thing going on there?

[b_joseph]

Rather gorgeous speech.

Its so true and its something that sports fans in general forget too easily. The bad moments bring us all together in order for us to fully appreciate the good moments together.
If we dont deal with the bad moments together, we take the good moments for granted and demand things that are not reasonable.


Great O.P!!

[shanklyboy]

Why did he want them to win? Because he just really liked rugby? Or because, at a difficult transitional time for SA, he could see that the team stood as a symbol for the nation, and by being successful they could provide a symbol for the nation to rally around - which would serve the political project of the new SA?

That's Mandela using sport in a positive way. To take an example people would be more cynical about, how will some feel this summer, when they see (likely) David Cameron coming out draped in the England flag (well, maybe not literally!) Would you say he just wants his team to win? Or do you think there's a political thing going on there?

You don't think you answered your own question?

Invictus is latin for 'Unconquered' and the poem is an indication of the strength of human spirit in the face of adversity.
Written by a man who knew a little about it.

Take it for what it is and don't get too hung up on the pseudo-political analysis.

[Driver 8]

You don't think you answered your own question?

Invictus is latin for 'Unconquered' and the poem is an indication of the strength of human spirit in the face of adversity.
Written by a man who knew a little about it.

Take it for what it is and don't get too hung up on the pseudo-political analysis.

Explain how the analysis I've offered is pseudo-political. I haven't mentioned this, but one of the first things I noticed about the OP is that it doesn't name the poet. Why is that? Maybe because him and his leg weren't considered important? If this thread had started with 'here's a poem by some guy who lost his leg, it's neat - be inspired', or some more eloquent version of that, we'd be looking at a very different set of responses.

[shanklyboy]

Explain how the analysis I've offered is pseudo-political.

As I said….take the poem in the manner it was intended.
A way of inspiring football supporters on a football forum.

You choose to analyse the political implications of Mandela with others.

I’m sure there are places on this site designed for that. This thread isn’t one of them.

I haven't mentioned this, but one of the first things I noticed about the OP is that it doesn't name the poet. Why is that? Maybe because him and his leg weren't considered important? If this thread had started with 'here's a poem by some guy who lost his leg, it's neat - be inspired', or some more eloquent version of that, we'd be looking at a very different set of responses.

If the poets name was posted ..what difference would it have made?
To say it wasn’t because ‘him and his leg weren’t considered important’ is a pile of shite to be honest

Fuck me….do you smell a rose and complain about it not smelling like Moms apple pie?

Just see the intention and stop fucking breaking it down and trying to ‘read the meaning’ behind the motive.


Christ Almighty.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

Great post Dr Cornwallis.

It takes guts to be brave enough to take up the challenge and fight to the bitter end. Only cowards sit on the sidelines berating those who did try.

Fuck the media and all the critics!

Hail Rafa!

Spot on mate.

[RedinExile]

Can't we even have a fuckin nice few inspiring words when people are getting behind us tonight? "It's OTT" whinge. "Drawing political parallels" moan. "Highly paid manager" nag.

God to be at one of your parties. It's an hour of need moment, get your heads out your arses.

Take it how it was meant maybe without coating us all in your spewed sanctimonious jiz puh-lease.

[Driver 8]

Look, my whole point is that these things are only being cited because they relate to Mandela. The OP says nothing about why Roosevelt said what he said, and doesn't even name the author of the poem, but it damn sure tells us that they relate to Mandela. I'm repeating myself, but the OP takes two separate pieces of writing, mentions that both were (or are being purported to be) inspiring to that long suffering man Nelson Mandela; thus they should inspire us in our support of that other long suffering man Rafa Benitez. How can anyone not think that is drawing some sort of parallel? Whether you think that is appropriate or not is another thing - I happen to think not. So this is the thread to discuss it.

Btw, what's the point of responding to someone if you're not going to offer rational points to back up your argument?

To say it wasn’t because ‘him and his leg weren’t considered important’ is a pile of shite to be honest

Not a rational point.

Fuck me….do you smell a rose and complain about it not smelling like Moms apple pie?

Not a rational point - ad hominem attack.

Just see the intention and stop fucking breaking it down and trying to ‘read the meaning’ behind the motive.

Yeah, let's all just suspend our critical faculties and take everything at face-value.


 

[shanklyboy]

Look, my whole point is that these things are only being cited because they relate to Mandela. The OP says nothing about why Roosevelt said what he said, and doesn't even name the author of the poem, but it damn sure tells us that they relate to Mandela. I'm repeating myself, but the OP takes two separate pieces of writing, mentions that both were (or are being purported to be) inspiring to that long suffering man Nelson Mandela; thus they should inspire us in our support of that other long suffering man Rafa Benitez. How can anyone not think that is drawing some sort of parallel? Whether you think that is appropriate or not is another thing - I happen to think not. So this is the thread to discuss it.

Btw, what's the point of responding to someone if you're not going to offer rational points to back up your argument?

Not a rational point.

Not a rational point - ad hominem attack.

Yeah, let's all just suspend our critical faculties and take everything at face-value.

I can give you rationale until it’s coming out of your eye sockets.
I can give you any discussion you want on any subject for far longer than you’d want or need.

Not in this thread.

[keyo]

Look, my whole point is that these things are only being cited because they relate to Mandela. The OP says nothing about why Roosevelt said what he said, and doesn't even name the author of the poem, but it damn sure tells us that they relate to Mandela. I'm repeating myself, but the OP takes two separate pieces of writing, mentions that both were (or are being purported to be) inspiring to that long suffering man Nelson Mandela; thus they should inspire us in our support of that other long suffering man Rafa Benitez. How can anyone not think that is drawing some sort of parallel? Whether you think that is appropriate or not is another thing - I happen to think not. So this is the thread to discuss it.

Btw, what's the point of responding to someone if you're not going to offer rational points to back up your argument?

Not a rational point.

Not a rational point - ad hominem attack.

Yeah, let's all just suspend our critical faculties and take everything at face-value.


 

maybe - just maybe - the 2 pieces were used because of their current relevance through the movie invictus (as the doc says)

and maybe - just maybe - they were used because they are about indomitable spirit and relevant to rafa, lfc and its supporters for that reason

and maybe - just maybe - the fact that it was good enough for nelson mandela and is therefore good enough for the op, is the reason for mandela being mentioned...........not as some sort of parallel to rafa's position and mandela struggle against oppression and leading of a divided nation

inspiring words, used in a sporting/political context by a great man....being used to inspire support of a sporting team/ personality is what i got from the op.........same as most quotes can be used in many contexts

[4pool]

Yeah, let's all just  take everything at face-value.
 

Fixed that for you.

Now we can agree. 

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

For what it's worth, I learned something new today thanks to Dr. Cornwallis' posting of the text. Thanks for that, and those words are inspiring.

Seeing that my dumb brain has not been educated to think academically nor politically, all  I saw were inspiring words the gist being the guy who has the balls to try something and succeed / fail is always better than the talker. Put more eloquently, of course.

[BobbyDavro]

Fuck me this place is full of shit at times.

Take a moment, read, understand that you're being a condescending big ponce who likes parading round in a polka dot dress and write something a bit less pretentious on a fucking football forum.
I like this place, but the marriage guidance counselling on here about how we should conduct our relationship with the club and it's personnel makes me want to chew my own eyeballs.

[Trada]

I thought it was a great post.

Can't see why people are moaning.

Some people will moan about anything these days.

[KULPete]

Loved your post, Dr. Cornwallis.  Thanks for sharing.  Drew inspiration from Teddy's speech and the excerpt from "Invictus."  Looking forward to watching the movie made by the man with few words....a certain Mr. Eastwood.

I am also amused by the intellectual PC cynics ripping apart the relevance of the prose to the situation at LFC.   
I think that Rafa would be flattered to the point of embarassment at being compared to Nelson Mandela....  The only thing which I can relate to is how human nature responds to struggle and suffering.   Surely everybody can relate??

Beyond that, I am just too damn stoopid to imagine Robert Downey playing a black man or Denzel playing Malcolm X....wait a minute..... didn't he?? 

[Xabinator]

Fuck me this place is full of shit at times.

Take a moment, read, understand that you're being a condescending big ponce who likes parading round in a polka dot dress and write something a bit less pretentious on a fucking football forum.
I like this place, but the marriage guidance counselling on here about how we should conduct our relationship with the club and it's personnel makes me want to chew my own eyeballs.

Thankyou BobbyDavro for coming up with the words I couldn't. Absolutely spot on. 

As was your original post Dr Cornwallis. 

If anything you could only be accused of comparing yourself to Nelson Mandela!! He saw it fit to use some well-written verse to inspire his countrymen, you saw it fit to use the same we'll-written verse to inspire some support and back-in our manager.

How any stupid bastard could deduce that you have compared Rafael Benitez to Nelson Mandela is beyond me. Has anyone answered that question yet?

[Trada]

Thankyou BobbyDavro for coming up with the words I couldn't. Absolutely spot on. 

As was your original post Dr Cornwallis. 

If anything you could only be accused of comparing yourself to Nelson Mandela!! He saw it fit to use some well-written verse to inspire his countrymen, you saw it fit to use the same we'll-written verse to inspire some support and back-in our manager.

How any stupid bastard could deduce that you have compared Rafael Benitez to Nelson Mandela is beyond me. Has anyone answered that questions yet?

 

[Zend...en the clowns]

Some people want shot with shit, cornwallis, cheers for that, people are far too eager to shoot people down and tear them apart, half the people would do well to put even a smigde of effort as per Cornwallis.

I do hope some of you that knocked him read this post because obviously you must not feel that YNWA is appropriate to be used in footballing circumstances then!? A song sung in act 2 of carousel initially to comfort a woman through the death of her husband and then used later on during a graduation ceremony clearly has no relevance to football...and this club..or so you would think?..

[stonty]

It's the Chinese he's after

[Ginamos]

...
What he doesn't need is this ridiculous cod-mythologising crap. It doesn't fit -he's a highly paid manager, not an imprisoned activist. It might be a stressful job, he definitely has been poorly served by the media (take a look at Spurs' spending since he came, or Villa's net spending over the last three years), but you're really pushing it.

Agreed.

The season hasn't gone well, but this is a little too much mythologising of Rafa.

I'd prefer looking at 4th place at the end of the season, we don't need this Rafa as Mother Theresa shit.

[Trada]

Agreed.

The season hasn't gone well, but this is a little too much mythologising of Rafa.

I'd prefer looking at 4th place at the end of the season, we don't need this Rafa as Mother Theresa shit.

Rafa forgives you.

 

[Dr Cornwallis]

I do hope some of you that knocked him read this post because obviously you must not feel that YNWA is appropriate to be used in footballing circumstances then!? A song sung in act 2 of carousel initially to comfort a woman through the death of her husband and then used later on during a graduation ceremony clearly has no relevance to football...and this club..or so you would think?..

 

That must really screw with people's heads when we sing it, the fucking sub-text is bang out of kilter with Stoke away in January.  Honestly, comparing well-paid footballers with a carousel barker who tries to rob an old lady...

[Dr Cornwallis]

The season hasn't gone well, but this is a little too much mythologising of Rafa.

I'd prefer looking at 4th place at the end of the season, we don't need this Rafa as Mother Theresa shit.

I can barely believe some of the shit people are coming out with.  I feel like the cop in The Usual Suspects when he realises that Verbal was Kaiser Soze.

[rutlandred]

For what it's worth, I learned something new today thanks to Dr. Cornwallis' posting of the text. Thanks for that, and those words are inspiring.

Seeing that my dumb brain has not been educated to think academically nor politically, all  I saw were inspiring words the gist being the guy who has the balls to try something and succeed / fail is always better than the talker. Put more eloquently, of course.

Me having no education. I had to use my brains...

Nice Op Doc - Though next time try not to put too much thought into it and certaing not as much romanticism - infact maybe just copy and paste an average piece from one of the many journalists out there that we all despise, don't egt enough of them...

[Ginamos]

Hey, Doc we're supporters here, suffering from this godawful season. Just seems a little OTT, that's all.

[Zend...en the clowns]

Some people want shot with shit, cornwallis, cheers for that, people are far too eager to shoot people down and tear them apart, half the people would do well to put even a smigde of effort as per Cornwallis.

I do hope some of you that knocked him read this post because obviously you must not feel that YNWA is appropriate to be used in footballing circumstances then!? A song sung in act 2 of carousel initially to comfort a woman through the death of her husband and then used later on during a graduation ceremony clearly has no relevance to football...and this club..or so you would think?..

Sickening that at the biggest point where unity is needed perhaps in the last decade as club and as fanset, that more people would rather focus on pedantic relativism than to jus take the post for what Cornwallis intended It to be..pull together lads, the club needs us..

[iSmiff]

Rafa and Mandela are both monsters, just ask Winnie Mandeal or Ryan Babel