Topic: Players signed by Rafael Benitez

[the_prodigal_s0n]

I considered Kuyt and Babel but dismissed the notion as Rafa seems to use them as primarily wingers, Voronin? He was free and that's all he's worth.

Are you people telling me that of the 3 strikers he inherited and the half dozen or so he's bought and let go that at least ONE of them couldn't have been kept and have come in useful rather than having to persist with a patently struggling nando?

Are you honestly saying they all either were so desperate to leave or we were so desperate for the money we had to sell them?

All of them?

You must be seriously dense if you can't comprehend that. He DIDN'T let them all go at the same time. Baros was sold to get Crouch. Morientes was sold so that we could bring in Bellamy and Kuyt. Cisse and Bellamy were sold to get Torres. Crouch was sold to get Keane. Had all of those players not left, we wouldn't have ended up getting Torres. He sold strikers to fund the purchase of other strikers. Every manager does it.

The problem right now is that he got fucked over by not being able to reinvest the money that Keane brought to the club. If he was able to use that in the summer, it's a reasonable assumption that we would have a new striker in the squad. The fact that Voronin is still at the club after being loaned out - essentially not being wanted by Rafa - speaks volumes.

[SP]

I considered Kuyt and Babel but dismissed the notion as Rafa seems to use them as primarily wingers, Voronin? He was free and that's all he's worth.

Are you people telling me that of the 3 strikers he inherited and the half dozen or so he's bought and let go that at least ONE of them couldn't have been kept and have come in useful rather than having to persist with a patently struggling nando?

Are you honestly saying they all either were so desperate to leave or we were so desperate for the money we had to sell them?

All of them?

Informed opinion on here seems to think that Rafa wanted to buy another striker but the proceeds of his player sales disappeared on him. It's hearsay, but has the ring of truth.

Kuyt does play as a striker - but exposes the right flank if we move him. The reshuffle to free up Kuyt is tricky because of the other injuries. Babel is an option, but it appears that his attitude has marked him down as 5th choice striker at best. Voronin is not great, but he is better than worthless.

There are enough options there to cover for Nando. The problem is that the whole team has been playing pretty shit. The lack of confidence from makeshift pairings at the back has spread doubt through the whole team. If the rest of the team was playing as they should, there is enough cover there for Nando. They are not good enough to overcome serious problems in the way the rest of the team are playing though...

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

My point is support the team by all means but FFS let them know when they are not pulling their weight.

I consider that Rafa's job, all booing does is drain confidence and create an atmosphere of unrest. Entirely counter productive and not conducive to turning it around.

[SquirmyRooter]

You must be seriously dense if you can't comprehend that. He DIDN'T let them all go at the same time. Baros was sold to get Crouch. Morientes was sold so that we could bring in Bellamy and Kuyt. Cisse and Bellamy were sold to get Torres. Crouch was sold to get Keane. Had all of those players not left, we wouldn't have ended up getting Torres. He sold strikers to fund the purchase of other strikers. Every manager does it.

The problem right now is that he got fucked over by not being able to reinvest the money that Keane brought to the club. If he was able to use that in the summer, it's a reasonable assumption that we would have a new striker in the squad. The fact that Voronin is still at the club after being loaned out - essentially not being wanted by Rafa - speaks volumes.

He fucked himself over on Keane, first by buying him and secondly by not having a deal tied up for a replacement before selling him.

And spare me the 'Parry bought him' bull, i've no doubts Rafa wanted him but was annoyed that the agreed fee fucked up any possibility of getting Barry but he wanted him.

If im understanding things correctly we are having to play an injured Torres because there was absolutely no other way things could have ended up.

I'm out.

[TommySmithsLiver]

I consider that Rafa's job, all booing does is drain confidence and create an atmosphere of unrest. Entirely counter productive and not conducive to turning it around.

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

[Johnnyboy1973]

I'm out.

Thank fuck

[Johnnyboy1973]

but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

I despise fans like you.

The upside of going down the shitter through our owners is losing the support of the likes of you.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

All fans that don't know the history of our support perhaps. All fans of other clubs perhaps but not us, please not us... if you're not happy paying their wages stop going the match, simple. poor gate receipts would say a hell of a lot more than booing ever could.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

He fucked himself over on Keane, first by buying him and secondly by not having a deal tied up for a replacement before selling him.

And spare me the 'Parry bought him' bull, i've no doubts Rafa wanted him but was annoyed that the agreed fee fucked up any possibility of getting Barry but he wanted him.

If im understanding things correctly we are having to play an injured Torres because there was absolutely no other way things could have ended up.

I'm out.

Care to tell me where I mentioned Parry? Feel free to completely misrepresent what I said.

One final time: we had Keane and Torres (and Ngog and others). Keane left, thus weakening our strike force. We needed a replacement, and from what I heard, there were a few deals to get someone else in in January, but it didn't work out. In the summer, Rafa should have been able to buy a striker, but the money wasn't there.

All the other nonsense about what went on before January is irrelevant. Nobody was lamenting the loss of these players before that. Bellamy? Give me a break, he was useless here. The only thing that is relevant to this discussion is that Rafa was not allowed to reinvest the Keane funds. He clearly wanted another striker, hence the purchase of Keane. He just didn't realise that he would have nothing to work with over the summer.

To argue that Rafa should have signed another striker in the squad when we were struggling to come up with the funds for a 31 year old centre back from Greece is just laugable really.

[danwms]

The original post was excellent, should be passed on to anyone that criticises Rafa

[TommySmithsLiver]

I despise fans like you.

The upside of going down the shitter through our owners is losing the support of the likes of you.

That's nice, I dispise fans like you.  Fans that blindly follow for no other reason than they are too spineless to actually stand up and say they don't like whats going on in case they lose face as a "top fan"  A fan who laughs and claps and cheers his team in to mediocrity, happy to watch lazy, overpaid players fail to deliver.

All fans that don't know the history of our support perhaps. All fans of other clubs perhaps but not us, please not us... if you're not happy paying their wages stop going the match, simple. poor gate receipts would say a hell of a lot more than booing ever could.

I'd be a fool to think that my seat would not be taken in a second by someone who may love the club considerably less than me and gates would remain unchanged.  No I think I'll stay and if I perceive there is a problem in the teams performance I'll be happy to highlight it.

[rotistgeil]

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

Then send a letter, complain to the club or even Rafa but on match days stick behind the lads. No one likes to be booed when it is not going well. It breeds even more uncertainty.

[Johnnyboy1973]

That's nice, I dispise fans like you.  Fans that blindly follow for no other reason than they are too spineless to actually stand up and say they don't like whats going on in case they lose face as a "top fan"  A fan who laughs and claps and cheers his team in to mediocrity, happy to watch lazy, overpaid players fail to deliver.

You're a part time fan, full time whopper.

We dont boo.

Clueless, fucking clueless.

[DangerScouse]

You're a part time fan, full time whopper.

We dont boo.

Clueless, fucking clueless.

Well said Johnny.

"I paid my money, i want to be entertained, wah wah wah . . . "

[freddwarf]

Everybody has a point......it doesn't mean it isn't a pile of shite!

Unlike his name though......you can't turn it off when your sick of it.

Ha......thats rich coming from you...!

[shanklyboy]

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

So it's a business arrangement for you is it?

Been going every week for donkeys years?

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

I'd be a fool to think that my seat would not be taken in a second by someone who may love the club considerably less than me and gates would remain unchanged.  No I think I'll stay and if I perceive there is a problem in the teams performance I'll be happy to highlight it.

Okay I'll give you an analogy you're a teacher in a school and you notice that some of the kids are underperforming do you

A. Start booing, jeering and telling them their shit
B. Stand there, do nothing and let them try and improve by themselves
C. Actively encourage them and help them realise their potential

out of interest which approach do you think would work best?

[Johnnyboy1973]

Ha......thats rich coming from you...!

You're hardly in a position.

Go all out for Martin O'neil with Sammy Lee as caretaker in the meantime.

[TommySmithsLiver]

You're a part time fan, full time whopper.

We dont boo.

Clueless, fucking clueless.

Well I've been pretty loud of recent weeks then, then again there might be others like me that think a communication of our lack of satisfaction is necessary.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Well I've been pretty loud of recent weeks then, then again there might be others like me that think a communication of our lack of satisfaction is necessary.

You are the minority.

Every club has dickheads.

[TommySmithsLiver]

Okay I'll give you an analogy you're a teacher in a school and you notice that some of the kids are underperforming do you

A. Start booing, jeering and telling them their shit
B. Stand there, do nothing and let them try and improve by themselves
C. Actively encourage them and help them realise their potential

out of interest which approach do you think would work best?

I'm not the teacher, Rafa is the teacher and I'm reality.  Rafa is there to nuture potential and if I see someone trying his heart out for the shirt I'm not going to get on his back but if I see a team not even trying to win, not putting in a shift or making the effort then I'm going to let it be known.  Also lets not forget that these are grown men on the field not little kids.  They should be big enough to realise that we see they aren't doing all they can and rebouble their efforts.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

I'm not the teacher, Rafa is the teacher and I'm reality.  Rafa is there to nuture potential and if I see someone trying his heart out for the shirt I'm not going to get on his back but if I see a team not even trying to win, not putting in a shift or making the effort then I'm going to let it be known.  Also lets not forget that these are grown men on the field not little kids.  They should be big enough to realise that we see they aren't doing all they can and rebouble their efforts.

Okay Rafa's the teacher then, that would make you what? the parent? the older brother? the best mate? either way you avoid my question which method would produce the best results? and which would be counterproductive? I know the answer and I know you know the answer so just say it, I wont laugh at you being proved wrong I promise.

[SP]

I'm not the teacher, Rafa is the teacher and I'm reality.  Rafa is there to nuture potential and if I see someone trying his heart out for the shirt I'm not going to get on his back but if I see a team not even trying to win, not putting in a shift or making the effort then I'm going to let it be known.  Also lets not forget that these are grown men on the field not little kids.  They should be big enough to realise that we see they aren't doing all they can and rebouble their efforts.

Spiritually you sound like a Toon fan.

[DangerScouse]

I'm not the teacher, Rafa is the teacher and I'm reality.  Rafa is there to nuture potential and if I see someone trying his heart out for the shirt I'm not going to get on his back but if I see a team not even trying to win, not putting in a shift or making the effort then I'm going to let it be known.  Also lets not forget that these are grown men on the field not little kids.  They should be big enough to realise that we see they aren't doing all they can and rebouble their efforts.

Name and shame the players you think aren't trying their hearts out?

[Gweggs]

You're a part time fan, full time whopper.

We dont boo.

Clueless, fucking clueless.

I don't like seeing it, and it does the complete opposite of helping-but they are fully within their rights to do it. Sorry.

[Johnnyboy1973]

I don't like seeing it, and it does the complete opposite of helping-but they are fully within their rights to do it. Sorry.

I know.

But, that still means they are clueless whoppers.

[Fordy]

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

You should never boo players? What good do you think that does?

Do you really think that every fan is happy with the current situation on and off the pitch? You use forums to express your views not when at games unless its against the owners.

[Dr Cornwallis]

He has undeniably spent a lot of money, and who gives a shit if he made a profit when the players he is bringing in our weaker? I'd rather have kept Bellamy than sign Babel, Keane, Voronin or the other turd he has brought in. The point about Torres is complete garbage as well, Man Utd probably have a plus net spend after CRonaldo but they'll still comfortably finish above us and have at least qualified in the CL cause Ferugson is a world class manager.

Without basing my whole reply on your final 6 words, which it is tempting to do, I shall refrain.

Yes, he has spent a lot of money.  Players cost money, shit players even cost money, you can't get a Bullard for less than £5m these days.  Even really, really shit players cost money, like Karol Poborsky (£3.5m), Jesper Blomqvist (£4.4m), Massimo Taibi (£4.5m), Louis Saha (£12.8m), Juan Veron (£28.1m), David May (£1.2m), Jordi Cruyff (£1.2m), David Bellion (£2m), Diego Forlan (£6.9m), Kleberson (£6.5m), Roy Carroll (£2.5m), Alan Smith (£7m), Nani (£17m), Anderson (£18m), Zoran Tosic (£8m), Dion Dublin (£1m), Tony Coton (£500,000), Van Der Gouw (£500,000), Mikel Silvestre (£3.5m), Ricardo (£1.5m), Tim Howard (£4m)...and now I'm bored looking. 

Not to mention the marvellous free signings such as Liam Miller, William Prunier, Laurent Blanc, Manucho, and Mark Bosnich.
And not to mention the early signings he made, many of which were expensive for the time, such as Viv Anderson, Ralph Milne, Danny Wallace, Neil Webb, Mal Donaghy.



I also draw your attention to the timings of the shit signings as well.

1999/00 season
Let's take the 1999 Champions League win as a nadir. Prior to this you had been fortunate to have been blessed with 5 quality 'youth' players who guided you to success.  Lots of money to spend to strengthen his squad after winning the treble, so his signings for that season were...

Quinton Fortune, Taibi, Silvestre, Barthez.
£17.8m spent, and you also let go of Nevland, Wellens, Curtis and Twiss for a combined fee of £1.7m

You go onto win the league again, despite the shit signings, but you concede the CL in the quarter finals.  Once again, the spawny/expensive youth set-up of Scholes, Giggs,  Butt, Beckham, Neville give you the stability to overcome shit signings.  Not to mention the expensive earlier signings in Cole, Yorke and Stam still being there.


2000/01 season
Time to defend the crown, so Ferguson brings in..nobody.
Still, his squad is still stronger than anyone else's because nobody can afford the money to bring in players to rival his 'home grown' talent, such as the Welsh Ryan Giggs, Cockney David Beckham, and the Bury-born Neville twins.
He makes a profit in the transfer scene by selling Higginbothan, Taibi, Cruyff, Notman, Berg, Healey, Bosnich and Sheringham for a magnificent £7m.


2001/02 season
Right, time to shine Alex.  No signings last year, so let's get some quality in and let's win the Champions League again.
In come Van Nistelrooy, Forlan, Veron, Carroll, Blanc and Steele for a modest combined fee of £60m, and Ferguson makes the inspired choice of selling Stam, Cole, Greening, Wilson, Blomqvist, Clegg, Rachubka, Van Der Gouw, Irwin, Johnson and Wallwork for a collossal £21m.
United finish 3rd in the league, went out of the FA Cup in the 4th round, went out of the Carling Cup in the 3rd round, and went out of the Champions League against the mighty Bayer Leverkeusen.
Sound familiar?


2002/03
Well, if it ain't broke then don't fix it.  If it IS broke, then throw £29.1m at it.  And that's exactly what Ferguson did by bringing in Rio Ferdinand, and also the magnificent Ricardo in goal for £1.5m. 
United balanced the books with the sales of Blanc, Yorke, Culkin, Roche and May for a combined £2m.  Operating under such a tight budget, Ferguson managed to win the league once more, despite being 8 points behind Arsenal at Christmas.  They also lost the Worthy Cup final, 5th round of the FA Cup and the quarter finals of the Champions League, it was a job well done once more for Ferguson.


2003/04
There's danger on the horizon, Ferguson throws a boot at Beckham's face and he has to replace him.  Armed with this knowledge, the canny Scot goes into the transfer market hunting for bargains once more, and ends up leaving the market with a like-for-like replacement for Becks in the shape of Eric Djemba Djemba and Kleberson, after all, one of them will work out if the other doesn't.  He also writes cheques for Bellion, Howard, Saha, Alan Smith and Gabby Heinze for a combined fee of £40.5m.  But he also beats Liverpool and a host of other clubs to the signing of a little orange 18 year old from Sporting Lisbon called Christiano, and this sets him back  a further £12.24m.  When I say, 'beats' other clubs to him, that means that they agreed to pay more for him and pay an 18 year old his justifiable wage demands of £40,000, it was a fair deal.
On the flipside, United balanced the books once more by selling Beckham and Veron for a combined fee of £32.25m. 
So with this £50m spending spree, it seemed a forgone conclusion that United would conquer the Premiership again, and Europe once more. 
United finish 3rd in the Premiership, go out of the Carling Cup in the fourth round, and are beaten by Porto in the first knockout round of the Champions League, but all is not lost as they conquer the mighty Millwall in the FA Cup.  The season is deemed unfair because Rio Ferdinand is banned for 8 months because he took drugs and missed a test to stay out of trouble, with that in mind, the press give Ferguson hell with a firmly written article appearing in the Guardian, just above the piece about the French league, next to the horse-racing results.


2004/05
Knowing that last season had been a disappointment, Ferguson used all his managerial powers to write a cheque for £27m for another 18 year old, this time Wayne Rooney.  He also brought experienced performers to steady the ship in the form of 17 year old Gerard Pique and 18 year old Guiseppe Rossi.
Ferguson also refined the squad by sneakily letting a couple of players go, including Lynch, Butt, Chadwick, Forlan, Djordic, Djemba-Djemba, Carroll, Nardiello, Ricardo and Tierney, bringing in £8m and offsetting the Rooney transfer in one fell swoop. 
Amazingly, the gamble didn't pay off and Ferguson finished the season with no trophies.  They went out of the Champions League in the second round to AC Milan, while Chelsea beat them in the Carling Cup semi's, and a penalty shoot-out loss to Arsenal in the FA Cup, while 2nd place just eluded them in the league.

How much longer could this bad luck continue?  The student of the game had made all the right moves, balanced the books, and done the homework, but still it wasn't enough?  Had he run over a leprechaun?


2005/06
Crunch time isn't it?  It is for Ferguson, who acts swiftly to make the minor adjustments to his team that is needed after all the previous spendings and planning he has put into his squad.  He targets the pinpoint place his team needs strengthening, and brings in a new defence. The signings of Evra, Foster, Van Der Sar and Vidic give the laser-accurate changes he needs, and he bolsters that with a move for Park.  The combined fee was around £19.5m.  Once again, with the skill of a master accountant, Ferguson offset that against the players released, they included Keane, Phil Neville, Kleberson, Puustinen, Fox, Cooper, Heath and Fortune, for a combined income of £6m.   Once again, Ferguson worked miracles with the awful hand God had dealt him.
It worked a treat as United moved up one place in the league table, finishing 2nd, and also had glorious runs in the FA Cup where they stormed into the 5th round, and they also blazed a trail in the Champions League where they finished below Lille in their group, 4th out of 4 teams.
But all was not lost, as they collected the £50m prize money for their Carling Cup win against Wigan.


2006/07
In a final throw of the dice, Ferguson leant upon his keyboard and accidentally sanctioned a £14m bid for Michael Carrick which was accepted.  Ferguson brought in £10.5m in transfer fees to cushion that blow, by selling fringe players and past-it stars such as Van Nistelrooy.  He also displayed great faith in his youth policy once more by letting go of Bellion, Ebanks Blake, McShane, Steele, Miller, Jones and American custodian Howard.
Amazingly, it worked, and United won the league by six points over Chelsea.  They also cruised past the mighty Lille and Roma in the Champions League before losing to Milan in the quarter finals, they went out of the Carling Cup against Southend, and got to the FA Cup final where they lost to Chelsea.
Ferguson had finally done it, after all his trials and tribulations, the media hounding him from pillor to post, he had won the league for the first time in 4 years despite all the cash constraints and despite having such a poor squad, the triumph over adversity was later to be cited by Lance Armstrong as a major factor in him overcoming cancer.


2007/08
No time to waste, it was straight back to the lab to come up with more tactical genius to spur them on to greater feats.
Ferguson knew that he would be greatly scruitinised this season, and so bought carefully in the transfer window, bringing in Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Kuczak, Manucho, Possebon and Petrucci for a combined fee of £68.5m, much of which had been generate from United's marvellous runs in the Champions League recently.  He also soothed the fears of the club owners by raining riches down on them by selling Richardson, Rossi, Smith, Henize, Solskjaer, Eckersley, Shawcross, Bardsley, Lee and Pique for £24m.  The club were making more than they could spend, times were good and Ferguson knew it.
Ferguson also perfected his managerial technique this season, where he managed to save himself and his coaching staff hundreds of hours of man-time each month by teaching them to say "give it to Ronaldo". 
The season ended in victory as Ronaldo FC won the Champions League and the Premiership.  By now, the press were reticent to even mention the FA Cup and Carling Cup around Ferguson due to their shoddy nature. 


2008/09
A genius's work is never done, and Ferguson used every sinew in his body to come up with a new tactic for the following season.  The hard work started in the managers' office in June when he wrote out an e-cheque for £30.5m for Berbatov and issued the coaches with a new mantra..."give it to Ronaldo or Berbatov".  Ever the scholar of the game, Ferguson also knew a bargain when he saw it and brought in Tosic and De Laet for a combined season outlay of £39.8m.  Ferguson raised additional funds by offloading Eagles, Silvestre, Fangzouh and Saha for £12.2m.  Once again, the auditors were happy, now onto football.
United were dominant once more in the league thanks to Ferguson's tactical acumen, winning the treble of Premiership, Carling Cup and Charity Shield. 


I hope someone enjoys reading this as much as I enjoyed typing it.  You joke of a club and joke of a manager.

 

[benny]

Portsmouth had just won the FA Cup. All seemed well there, and he was going to a manager who he had worked with before. He was going there to get regular games and to enhance his chances with England. In a sense, it's perfectly understandable that he left for Portsmouth.

Plenty of players have left big clubs to get games at weaker teams. Johnson also left Chelsea to further his career at Portsmouth. Does that mean Mourinho should be lambasted for the decision? Of course not. Not every player at a big club is going to be content with picking splinters out of their arse most of the time.

Plus at the time portsmouth were one of the highest payers in the league at the time,which is why there in the shit there in now,bit like west ham as well

[benny]

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.
[/quote
Do you honestly think your paying there wages,gate receipts are a drop in the ocean.
You don't support the team cause the win things(alright we've been spoilt) you support the team coz its your team win lose or draw,yea the piss you off but what do you do go an support someone else,bollox
If you go the pictures and the film is shite do you stand up an start booin do you fuck so why should you do it at anfield
Get a grip lad

[shanklyboy]

Bottomless pit of money my arse, you're falling in to the trap of using the same excuses that Rafa has in the past when he claims we can't compete in spending with the other big clubs when the stats show we have spent more net since he took over than Wenger or Mr ferguson.  Its this mentality of thinking of ourselves as "poor little liverpool" that is fucking us over every bit as much as injuries are as the team is starting to believe it.  We came second last year, we are moving forward and we shouldn't be hiding behind excuses but making statments of intent!

I've been around the block to fall into any trap mate.
I'm not making excuses either just using a bit of common sense.

Once Man Utd floated they became the biggest 'cash rich' club in the world with not one penny of debt.They steadily increased that with the development of Old Trafford and an aggressive marketing stategy. If you don't think they had a bottomless pit of money at that time then you were smoking some good stuff.

Wenger has won an F.A Cup since Rafa arrived and apart from 1 season has always finished below us during that time. This from a man who's team were UNBEATEN Champions when Rafa arrived and who has been at his club now for 13 years.
He obviously won Championships in his time at Arsenal so fair play to him, but the landscape of the League has changed in terms of the number of teams who can challenge during that time.

You also have to take into account that prior to Wenger taking over from George Graham as manager they won the League Cup in 1986–87, the League title in 1988–89 and another in 90–91, losing only one match. They won  the FA Cup and League Cup double in 1992–93 and a second European trophy, the Cup Winners' Cup, in 1993–94. So it wasn't exactly a struggling outfit that Wenger inherited was it?

In 94/95 they spent £18.5 million on players.
In 96/97 £20 million.
In 98/99 £13 million.
In 99/00 £23 million.
In 00/01 £35 million.
In 01/02 £15 million.
In 02/03 £6.5 million.
In 03/04 £16 million.
In 04/05 £1 million.
In 05/06 £33 million.
In 06/07 £12 million.
In 07/08 £13 million.
In 08/09 £31 million.

Not inconsiderable sums both for the time and considering the squad Wenger inherited.

If you can't see how both Ferguson and Wenger have had a head start on Benitez then I think you choose not to deliberately.

One final thing, I don't have any inferiority complex about my team. It's not in my nature.
 

[TommySmithsLiver]

Without basing my whole reply on your final 6 words, which it is tempting to do, I shall refrain.

Yes, he has spent a lot of money.  Players cost money, shit players even cost money, you can't get a Bullard for less than £5m these days.  Even really, really shit players cost money, like Karol Poborsky (£3.5m), Jesper Blomqvist (£4.4m), Massimo Taibi (£4.5m), Louis Saha (£12.8m), Juan Veron (£28.1m), David May (£1.2m), Jordi Cruyff (£1.2m), David Bellion (£2m), Diego Forlan (£6.9m), Kleberson (£6.5m), Roy Carroll (£2.5m), Alan Smith (£7m), Nani (£17m), Anderson (£18m), Zoran Tosic (£8m), Dion Dublin (£1m), Tony Coton (£500,000), Van Der Gouw (£500,000), Mikel Silvestre (£3.5m), Ricardo (£1.5m), Tim Howard (£4m)...and now I'm bored looking. 

Not to mention the marvellous free signings such as Liam Miller, William Prunier, Laurent Blanc, Manucho, and Mark Bosnich.
And not to mention the early signings he made, many of which were expensive for the time, such as Viv Anderson, Ralph Milne, Danny Wallace, Neil Webb, Mal Donaghy.



I also draw your attention to the timings of the shit signings as well.

1999/00 season
Let's take the 1999 Champions League win as a nadir. Prior to this you had been fortunate to have been blessed with 5 quality 'youth' players who guided you to success.  Lots of money to spend to strengthen his squad after winning the treble, so his signings for that season were...

Quinton Fortune, Taibi, Silvestre, Barthez.
£17.8m spent, and you also let go of Nevland, Wellens, Curtis and Twiss for a combined fee of £1.7m

You go onto win the league again, despite the shit signings, but you concede the CL in the quarter finals.  Once again, the spawny/expensive youth set-up of Scholes, Giggs,  Butt, Beckham, Neville give you the stability to overcome shit signings.  Not to mention the expensive earlier signings in Cole, Yorke and Stam still being there.


2000/01 season
Time to defend the crown, so Ferguson brings in..nobody.
Still, his squad is still stronger than anyone else's because nobody can afford the money to bring in players to rival his 'home grown' talent, such as the Welsh Ryan Giggs, Cockney David Beckham, and the Bury-born Neville twins.
He makes a profit in the transfer scene by selling Higginbothan, Taibi, Cruyff, Notman, Berg, Healey, Bosnich and Sheringham for a magnificent £7m.


2001/02 season
Right, time to shine Alex.  No signings last year, so let's get some quality in and let's win the Champions League again.
In come Van Nistelrooy, Forlan, Veron, Carroll, Blanc and Steele for a modest combined fee of £60m, and Ferguson makes the inspired choice of selling Stam, Cole, Greening, Wilson, Blomqvist, Clegg, Rachubka, Van Der Gouw, Irwin, Johnson and Wallwork for a collossal £21m.
United finish 3rd in the league, went out of the FA Cup in the 4th round, went out of the Carling Cup in the 3rd round, and went out of the Champions League against the mighty Bayer Leverkeusen.
Sound familiar?


2002/03
Well, if it ain't broke then don't fix it.  If it IS broke, then throw £29.1m at it.  And that's exactly what Ferguson did by bringing in Rio Ferdinand, and also the magnificent Ricardo in goal for £1.5m. 
United balanced the books with the sales of Blanc, Yorke, Culkin, Roche and May for a combined £2m.  Operating under such a tight budget, Ferguson managed to win the league once more, despite being 8 points behind Arsenal at Christmas.  They also lost the Worthy Cup final, 5th round of the FA Cup and the quarter finals of the Champions League, it was a job well done once more for Ferguson.


2003/04
There's danger on the horizon, Ferguson throws a boot at Beckham's face and he has to replace him.  Armed with this knowledge, the canny Scot goes into the transfer market hunting for bargains once more, and ends up leaving the market with a like-for-like replacement for Becks in the shape of Eric Djemba Djemba and Kleberson, after all, one of them will work out if the other doesn't.  He also writes cheques for Bellion, Howard, Saha, Alan Smith and Gabby Heinze for a combined fee of £40.5m.  But he also beats Liverpool and a host of other clubs to the signing of a little orange 18 year old from Sporting Lisbon called Christiano, and this sets him back  a further £12.24m.  When I say, 'beats' other clubs to him, that means that they agreed to pay more for him and pay an 18 year old his justifiable wage demands of £40,000, it was a fair deal.
On the flipside, United balanced the books once more by selling Beckham and Veron for a combined fee of £32.25m. 
So with this £50m spending spree, it seemed a forgone conclusion that United would conquer the Premier League again, and Europe once more. 
United finish 3rd in the Premier League, go out of the Carling Cup in the fourth round, and are beaten by Porto in the first knockout round of the Champions League, but all is not lost as they conquer the mighty Millwall in the FA Cup.  The season is deemed unfair because Rio Ferdinand is banned for 8 months because he took drugs and missed a test to stay out of trouble, with that in mind, the press give Ferguson hell with a firmly written article appearing in the Guardian, just above the piece about the French league, next to the horse-racing results.


2004/05
Knowing that last season had been a disappointment, Ferguson used all his managerial powers to write a cheque for £27m for another 18 year old, this time Wayne Rooney.  He also brought experienced performers to steady the ship in the form of 17 year old Gerard Pique and 18 year old Guiseppe Rossi.
Ferguson also refined the squad by sneakily letting a couple of players go, including Lynch, Butt, Chadwick, Forlan, Djordic, Djemba-Djemba, Carroll, Nardiello, Ricardo and Tierney, bringing in £8m and offsetting the Rooney transfer in one fell swoop. 
Amazingly, the gamble didn't pay off and Ferguson finished the season with no trophies.  They went out of the Champions League in the second round to AC Milan, while Chelsea beat them in the Carling Cup semi's, and a penalty shoot-out loss to Arsenal in the FA Cup, while 2nd place just eluded them in the league.

How much longer could this bad luck continue?  The student of the game had made all the right moves, balanced the books, and done the homework, but still it wasn't enough?  Had he run over a leprechaun?


2005/06
Crunch time isn't it?  It is for Ferguson, who acts swiftly to make the minor adjustments to his team that is needed after all the previous spendings and planning he has put into his squad.  He targets the pinpoint place his team needs strengthening, and brings in a new defence. The signings of Evra, Foster, Van Der Sar and Vidic give the laser-accurate changes he needs, and he bolsters that with a move for Park.  The combined fee was around £19.5m.  Once again, with the skill of a master accountant, Ferguson offset that against the players released, they included Keane, Phil Neville, Kleberson, Puustinen, Fox, Cooper, Heath and Fortune, for a combined income of £6m.   Once again, Ferguson worked miracles with the awful hand God had dealt him.
It worked a treat as United moved up one place in the league table, finishing 2nd, and also had glorious runs in the FA Cup where they stormed into the 5th round, and they also blazed a trail in the Champions League where they finished below Lille in their group, 4th out of 4 teams.
But all was not lost, as they collected the £50m prize money for their Carling Cup win against Wigan.


2006/07
In a final throw of the dice, Ferguson leant upon his keyboard and accidentally sanctioned a £14m bid for Michael Carrick which was accepted.  Ferguson brought in £10.5m in transfer fees to cushion that blow, by selling fringe players and past-it stars such as Van Nistelrooy.  He also displayed great faith in his youth policy once more by letting go of Bellion, Ebanks Blake, McShane, Steele, Miller, Jones and American custodian Howard.
Amazingly, it worked, and United won the league by six points over Chelsea.  They also cruised past the mighty Lille and Roma in the Champions League before losing to Milan in the quarter finals, they went out of the Carling Cup against Southend, and got to the FA Cup final where they lost to Chelsea.
Ferguson had finally done it, after all his trials and tribulations, the media hounding him from pillor to post, he had won the league for the first time in 4 years despite all the cash constraints and despite having such a poor squad, the triumph over adversity was later to be cited by Lance Armstrong as a major factor in him overcoming cancer.


2007/08
No time to waste, it was straight back to the lab to come up with more tactical genius to spur them on to greater feats.
Ferguson knew that he would be greatly scruitinised this season, and so bought carefully in the transfer window, bringing in Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, Kuczak, Manucho, Possebon and Petrucci for a combined fee of £68.5m, much of which had been generate from United's marvellous runs in the Champions League recently.  He also soothed the fears of the club owners by raining riches down on them by selling Richardson, Rossi, Smith, Henize, Solskjaer, Eckersley, Shawcross, Bardsley, Lee and Pique for £24m.  The club were making more than they could spend, times were good and Ferguson knew it.
Ferguson also perfected his managerial technique this season, where he managed to save himself and his coaching staff hundreds of hours of man-time each month by teaching them to say "give it to Ronaldo". 
The season ended in victory as Ronaldo FC won the Champions League and the Premier League.  By now, the press were reticent to even mention the FA Cup and Carling Cup around Ferguson due to their shoddy nature. 


2008/09
A genius's work is never done, and Ferguson used every sinew in his body to come up with a new tactic for the following season.  The hard work started in the managers' office in June when he wrote out an e-cheque for £30.5m for Berbatov and issued the coaches with a new mantra..."give it to Ronaldo or Berbatov".  Ever the scholar of the game, Ferguson also knew a bargain when he saw it and brought in Tosic and De Laet for a combined season outlay of £39.8m.  Ferguson raised additional funds by offloading Eagles, Silvestre, Fangzouh and Saha for £12.2m.  Once again, the auditors were happy, now onto football.
United were dominant once more in the league thanks to Ferguson's tactical acumen, winning the treble of Premier League, Carling Cup and Charity Shield. 


I hope someone enjoys reading this as much as I enjoyed typing it.  You joke of a club and joke of a manager.

 

I enjoyed it right the way through to the end when you refer to ferguson as a joke of a manger.  He has averaged a league title every 2 years by fair means or foul and I just can't find it in myself to laugh.

[Cloggs]

Now here is a post that "Sums it up nicely, without making it too complicated"

Great post.

Yet very subjective and with made up numbers. For example: add ons not included with players bought, but included with players sold (eg.Keane)

[koptician]

He fucked himself over on Keane, first by buying him and secondly by not having a deal tied up for a replacement before selling him.

And spare me the 'Parry bought him' bull, i've no doubts Rafa wanted him but was annoyed that the agreed fee fucked up any possibility of getting Barry but he wanted him.

If im understanding things correctly we are having to play an injured Torres because there was absolutely no other way things could have ended up.

I'm out.

And how exactly do you know this?

[Il Nina]

I enjoyed it right the way through to the end when you refer to ferguson as a joke of a manger.  He has averaged a league title every 2 years by fair means or foul and I just can't find it in myself to laugh.

Yes well that same Ferguson had to take time to build a league winning team. They had bad times before it all got rosey. Infact their bad times left them near relegation, far worse than our situation. And yet you can't even support the team you're so called a fan of through our bad patch...you would rather boo your own team and manager?! A manager who was more successful in his first couple of seasons than Ferguson was. That wreaks of hypocrisy. Success is not instant, are you forgetting Bill Shankly and his time as manager? It took at least 7 years of rebuilding until he won something. Rome was not built in a day and if you want instant success you are with the wrong team.

[Fluro Kaz]

That's nice, I dispise fans like you.  Fans that blindly follow for no other reason than they are too spineless to actually stand up and say they don't like whats going on in case they lose face as a "top fan"  A fan who laughs and claps and cheers his team in to mediocrity, happy to watch lazy, overpaid players fail to deliver.

I'd be a fool to think that my seat would not be taken in a second by someone who may love the club considerably less than me and gates would remain unchanged.  No I think I'll stay and if I perceive there is a problem in the teams performance I'll be happy to highlight it.

are you a fucking joke? Do you seriously think players "who can't be arsed' in the first place are going to try hard for someone booing them or abusing them? Yeah for fucking sure. Get behind the lads now more than ever and give them a lift you wanker.

I'll "blindly" follow Liverpool into the pits of league 1 if I have to. Atleast by then idiots like you will be manchester city fans. Just because people don't boo when we loose doesn't mean we are happy about it I bet the fans singing YNWA at the end of games are more down walking out of Anfield than you thinking " yeah calling Babel a useless fucking prick and telling him to fuck off will do him the world of good, i hope they all heard me booing over those blind twats on the Kop singing at the end, it will make em try harder next week knowing I'll boo even louder  if they don't win...yeah pat on the back for me...."

[shanklyboy]

are you a fucking joke? Do you seriously think players "who can't be arsed' in the first place are going to try hard for someone booing them or abusing them? Yeah for fucking sure. Get behind the lads now more than ever and give them a lift you wanker.

I'll "blindly" follow Liverpool into the pits of league 1 if I have to. Atleast by then idiots like you will be manchester city fans. Just because people don't boo when we loose doesn't mean we are happy about it I bet the fans singing YNWA at the end of games are more down walking out of Anfield than you thinking " yeah calling Babel a useless fucking prick and telling him to fuck off will do him the world of good, i hope they all heard me booing over those blind twats on the Kop singing at the end, it will make em try harder next week knowing I'll boo even louder  if they don't win...yeah pat on the back for me...."

It's like the Canine whistle effect.

10 players can be excellent but 1 struggles.......therefore when the gobshites are booing at him......he is the only person in the world who can hear it.

It helps protect lazy bastards like Kuyt and Carra who steal their wages every week.

I'm sure that's how it works because you wouldn't want every player to think they were being booed would you?

[ErinMc66]

And there is the essence of the disagreement.  I hate people who don't cheer their team like the glory seekers in the theatre of silence but similarly I'm paying their wages and if I'm unhappy with how they are working for those wages I'll let them know and I think all fans should do the same.

Un. Fucking. Real.   

[KiNki]

Maybe I've misunderstood what point you are making here.
However I'll run the risk of making further ridiculous comments.
Given that it's a thread discussing the signings Rafa has made and you don't think the squad or our style of play has improved under him, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that given your assesment of the replacements,it is anyone but Rafa's fault.

So when you list players , including Hyypia as not being  improved upon, it's fair to point out that if Rafa had his way Hyypia would still be a part of the squad, although not as first choice. Hence my comment.
I doubt if even the best of managers can reverse the ravages of time as far as his players are concerned.

Regarding ridiculous comments again.......Hyypia and Carragher wasn't our centre back pairing in 2003/04, Biscan and Hyypia were. Even Traore was played there before Carragher.
Houllier preferred Biscan and didn't rate Carragher as a centre back...he didn't trust him because he scored a couple of own goals against Man Utd.
We were battered by Arsenal 4 - 2 at Highbury and after that Carragher was moved to centre back and Henchov brought in as right back. That was in April 2004.
To say you would take Hyypia and Carragher 5 years younger is not an option is it? To ask if an injury prone player and an ageing centre back is an improvement is a ridiculous comment to make.
Was Agger injured when he was bought.....was Carra the same age as he is now when Rafa made him the player he is?

Kewell would hardly win any long term fitness awards and by your own description 'was shit' yet Riera isn't an improvement on him?
I've no idea what Garcia has to do with anything as he's well gone.Kuyt isn't an improvement on Smicer?

Regarding Heskey or Owen. I agree that Owen was our first choice but he had gone, so Rafa had no chance to use him. Again, not Rafa's fault.
It would be just as easy to use Sinama Pongolle, Mellor, Baros or Diouf by comparison.

Murphy is a central midfielder, a playmaker, irrespective of where Houllier played him. That's what he was bought as and that's where he has always played and that's where he is playing now, so the comparison isn't as ridiculous as it sounds.
I could make the same comparison between Alonso and Cheyrou or Diao if you want as they were our other midfield players at the time.
The only other comparison is the one that you have already made between Hamman and Masherano.

To say that we haven't improved because we didn't break teams down who parked the bus last season is nit picking. Our European standing and the vctories we have enjoyed would suggest otherwise. Not to mention the season by season improvement in the league. The team that finished the 03/04 season 30 points behind the winners had far more problems than this team by a country mile.
You are correct, the spine of the team Rafa inherited was strongest part of it, and still is. That doesn't mean the spine of this team isn't an even better one than the one he inherited. The spine of the team always has to be the strongest part of it. Ideally you can supplement that by having strength out wide which is being addressed this season by the introduction of Johnson. I don't see Chelsea, Arsenal or Man Utd with too much to shout about with out and out wide players.!

Finishing last season as the Leagues top scorers would also refute your argument.

i dont know even where to begin with alot of misinterpretation of whats been said with a side order revisionism.

So i'll repeat the discussion.  Somebody made the point that the players rafa has now are far superior to the ones he inherited five years ago.  I disgreed there's a marked improvement.  I was then given a list of players from this season's squad as an example of progession. Those players were Reina, aggar, masch torres etc  Most playing down the spine and i gave my subjective view on their equivalent counterparts of 2005.

to expand a little.

During the summer, in which rafa took over the club, michael had decided to go and rafa couldn't convince him to stay.  A key player from our squad was gone. A player who we heavily relied on.  Rafa still had a number of decent players - most of whom played down the spine.  The weaknesses of the team he inherited was outwide, strength in depth and now that owen had gone their was another weakness upfront - althougth he still had baros, cisse, mellor (quantity but not the quality).

He added xabi alonso (adding to the spine), he bought garcia, he got nunez and he bought josemi.

With that squad of players (both inherited and bought) we won the champions league, lost the carling cup and finished fifth.  A great first season in charge. (regardless of net spend/injuries/beachballs or any other mitigating circumstances)
 
Five years on has liverpool progressed from that point? 

The spine of our team, 5 years ago, was our greatest assest. Where once we had dudek, carra hyypia, hamann, gerrard, alonso, cisse, baros we now have Reina, carra, agger, gerrard masc torres.(no small feat maintaining a strong spine granted)   We still dont have great strength in depth and there isn't an abundance of quality out wide and there is still a weakness upfront.

Rafa has made his moves in this summers transfer market and he's been blighted with injury so it's impossible to tell if we've progressed from having a strong spine to having a great first 11.
 
On paper they look good and balanced.  Hopefully that transpires on the pitch and we play great football allround.    The proof of the pudding will be whether that team wins goes on to be successfull and wins trophies.

-------

back to the revisionism - i cant let this go.

Houllier started the new 2003/4 season as he ended the previous season with hyypia and henchoz as his first choice centre half pairing.  Also, lest we forget, houllier's new signing steve finnan was injured at the start of the new season. Carra who'd played the previous season at right back (having replaced the ill markus babbel) continued playing right back for the first couple of games due to finnan's injury and biscan was asked to play centre half, replacing the aging, out of form, henchoz.  Early on in that 2003/4 season carragher broke his leg and would miss the next six months.  Biscan, unsurprisingly, carried on playing centre half for quite some time. 

Due to persistant injuries to finnan, carra's leg break, henchoz's loss of form, our entire back four was shuffled round (much like it is now) until april when there was some stability and houllier had a full set of defenders to choose from.   At that point der der der der de derrrrrr houllier picked finnan, carragher, hyypia and riise.

With regards to murphy.  sigh.  first of all murphy played 2nd striker at crewe in much the same way stevie is 2nd striker to torres. I dont give a flying fuck if he plays centre mid for fulham now or where roy evans planned on playing him when he signed him. The simple fact is that murphy rarely played centre mid unless gary mac, didi, stevie g were absent. So to try and draw comparison to xabi alonso, an ever present, first choice, centre midfielder is ridiculous.  Murphy was in and out the team for the entire time he was at the club and more often than not out when he was picked he was played wide mid.

----

back to your point on goals scored as a barometer for creativity, i think houllier also tried to make the same point and it didn't work for him either.  I dont give a flying fuck how many goals we score in all honesty.  At the start of the season i'd have happily taken 28 1 nil wins in the league.  The lowest goals tally in the history of the game because it would guarentee us the title. 

football success is defined by trophies won alone.  Value of squad, goals scored, the way we play, closing gaps of points accumalated, may well be indicators to some, they aint gonna go in that glass cabinet at anfield i'm afraid.  Budget is a major factor in attaining success but not the sole determining factor. There has to be good management as well.

[JimmyGrunt]

I'm struggling to believe that 'fans' like the above actually exist.