Topic: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread

[Mumm-Ra]

Good man Billy. Just for the record, small point of order, HF was on the receiving end in the cavalier, he was not the giver.

[TepidT2O]

What do you do if you don’t believe in god?

It can’t be that uncommon...

[Billy The Kid]

Other useful nuggets of advice that I found out the hard way:


A. When you undertake your 5th step, avoid sharing your inventory with a family member. The reason I advise this is because of the depravity and insanity of the disease. Should you be a real alcoholic then your inventory will contain a lot heinous shit, most of which would probably upset/shock/traumatise a sibling or parent.

B. If you're an atheist and refuse to entertain any concept of a "God", I suggest that you ignore that term for now. Just go ahead and do your inventory. Complete it to the best of your ability and go admit your wrongs to another person. The moment you do this, I GUARANTEE that a psychic change will come over you. You'll see the world in a whole new light. The obsession to drink will leave you. Remember step 2 says that we CAME to believe that a power greater than ourselves COULD restore us to sanity. Don't get caught up in any philosophical musings as to what that "Power" is. It will reveal itself to you if you do the work. You will COME to believe

C. When you procure the book, don't just read it once and think "yeah I understand how this works now" and then put the book away. Read it and study it for the rest of your life. Get yourself a highlighter pen and highlight the passages that relate to you. If you're a real alcoholic, your highlighter will be out of ink by chapter 4, so maybe buy two of them. Become more knowledgeable on the subject of alcoholism than you are on any of your passions or special interests. Make the 12 steps your specialist subject like your life depends on it, because it actually does depend on it

D. Do not underestimate the importance of step 12. You HAVE to get out there and help others. Step 1 to 3 is the preparation. Steps 4 to 9 is the WORK. Steps 10, 11 and 12 is how you STAY sober. Skip it, and the "power" that handed you your freedom from the obsession will eventually desert you and you will return to a state of insanity. Ever heard the phrase "you get back what you put out"? Well it's true. If you want to hold onto your sobriety then you have to help others to find theirs

[Billy The Kid]

What do you do if you don’t believe in god?

It can’t be that uncommon...

My advice is start the steps. Get to work. You will eventually "come to believe" as stated in step 2

When you've endured the hopelessness and desperation of a disease like this one, where you're utterly helpless and defenceless against it, and all of a sudden you find yourself restored to sanity, the "higher power" concept will be a little easier to buy into. You'll create your own conception of what the term "God" actually means

[Red Beret]

^^^ Thanks for that Billy.  I'd never describe myself as an alcoholic (what alcoholic ever does?) but I do recognise I have a tendency to self medicate (especially when bored and alone) and sometimes I don't feel I have a choice on drinking, which royally pisses me off.

I'm taking steps to find far more positive and constructive things to do when these urges come along, and I'm confident I'll get there.  The 12 Steps as you describe them are a great guide, especially when it comes to self honesty.  Most people I know say I am a good, wise, empathic and generous person, but I tend to just smile sadly and say, "you don't know me the way I know me". 

Maybe I'm being overly harsh on myself but I do know I can be both needy, insecure and clingy due to my personality disorder, and that can make me a terror to deal with when I lose myself control - which can happen if I drink too much, although it can also happen when I'm stone cold sober too!   

The confident man is a selfless man, who doesn't do the right thing for the wrong (selfish) reasons.  He does them because he firmly believes good will return to him in some manner.  That's taking ownership and responsibility for your own emotional regulation, and that's my plan.

Of course we'll all have days where we want to switch off our phones and grow weary of the people around us who are constantly in crisis, but if one's heart is in the right place we will always find the strength to be there as much as we can.

[Red Beret]

My advice is start the steps. Get to work. You will eventually "come to believe" as stated in step 2

When you've endured the hopelessness and desperation of a disease like this one, where you're utterly helpless and defenceless against it, and all of a sudden you find yourself restored to sanity, the "higher power" concept will be a little easier to buy into. You'll create your own conception of what the term "God" actually means

Indeed yes.  "God" is just a label.  If that particular label doesn't work for you then use another.  Call it the universe, the collective human consciousness, the law of attraction and or vibration, whatever.  But don't dismiss the concept out of hand.

[Billy The Kid]

My concept of "God" and "Higher Power" is the intelligence of the universe

It is both sentient and responsive to the power of human thought

Seek it, develop a relationship with it, do it's work, be nice to all that it has created, and it will accomplish for you the things you were once unable to accomplish for yourself

That is MY experience of MY relationship with MY higher power

It's actual name is irrelevant to me. To engage in that type of discussion is to spectacularly miss the point entirely

[Billy The Kid]

Indeed yes.  "God" is just a label.  If that particular label doesn't work for you then use another.  Call it the universe, the collective human consciousness, the law of attraction and or vibration, whatever.  But don't dismiss the concept out of hand.

That's what killed Carl. He refused to entertain the notion that a power greater than himself could get him well. I've said in here many times, non-alcoholics should proceed with caution when it comes to offering their "opinions" and giving "advice" to actual alcoholics, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters

Misinformed non-alcoholics literally have the power to kill a real alcoholic with their "opinions". And the scary thing is most non-alcoholics don't realise that. They don't know that they don't know.
 

[TepidT2O]

That's what killed Carl. He refused to entertain the notion that a power greater than himself could get him well. I've said in here many times, non-alcoholics should proceed with caution when it comes to offering their "opinions" and giving "advice" to actual alcoholics, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters

Misinformed non-alcoholics literally have the power to kill a real alcoholic with their "opinions". And the scary thing is most non-alcoholics don't realise that. They don't know that they don't know.
 

I’m very sad to say it, but it was obvious for some years that poor Carl was going to die.  Just as it was obvious that my brother was going to die of alcohol.  Sadly he killed himself before he died of it, in some ways this was a release for my parents whose life he was destroying. An early exit so to speak, I don’t mean to sound callous, but he benefit of the passage of time makes me see the positives of it.

[redbyrdz]

What do you do if you don’t believe in god?

It can’t be that uncommon...

Handing yourself over to some higher power is the essence of religion. However I think most people are somewhat religious  and replacing God with 'a higher power' will work for them.

Also maybe replacing a dependence on alcohol with a dependence on 'a higher power' is choosing the lesser evil

I would also argue that if you can do all those steps, and it cures you, it shows that you weren't powerless in the beginning...

Psychologically, step 4, 8/9, and 10 tick a lot of boxes, though the first step, the decision to change, has to come first. I think the idea behind the list and making amends for it is to remove the cause of alcoholism - it offers a way of dealing with past incidents and the resulting emotions. It ticks a lot of boxes, because
-  it is painful enough (through shame) that you a don't want to do it again, and also that you will be trying to make that sacrifice 'worth it' by not relapsing later
- it is public and likely to change your social environment (leaving 'friends' who are c*nts and making amends with old ones you lost through drinking)
- it takes long enough to embed the new way in the brain and form new habits ("what consequences will my acting have on others")


Anyway, I appreciate, Billy is trying to help people, and if this works for even some, its worth a shot.

[Billy The Kid]

I would also argue that if you can do all those steps, and it cures you, it shows that you weren't powerless in the beginning...

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you mate. And again, I would urge you to be cautious as to who you share that opinion with. Carl is dead because he was powerless to stop drinking by himself and refused to entertain the idea that someone or something other than himself could fix him. That's what separates an alcoholic from a problem drinker. Alcoholics can't stop and stay stopped by themselves because the disease is progressive - eventually all alcoholics reach a point where they're beyond human aid. Or as the step describes it, they become "powerless".

Carl wasn't the first or last to die from this disease. Thousands of people will die around the world from it this very day. Some will be dead from it before I finish typing this post. Ask yourself, why would any person continue to indulge in a substance that they know is killing them? Moreover, why would they indulge in it right up to the gates of death and beyond? Why doesn't the prospect of imminent death stop them from indulging before it's too late?

It's because they are powerless mate. No alcoholic can beat this disease on his own.

[Red Beret]

No intention to go off topic, but it always amazes me, in a sad way, that so many people will believe in hell, but not believe in heaven.

Surrendering to an addiction, being powerless in it's grip and seeing no way out, is exactly what that is.  Whatever they might "mean" to you as concepts, both have the potential to exist in some form; and as the 12 steps show, is "surrendering" to this concept of a higher power to save you really any different than being in the thrall of something that is destroying you?

[Jm55]

No intention to go off topic, but it always amazes me, in a sad way, that so many people will believe in hell, but not believe in heaven.

Surrendering to an addiction, being powerless in it's grip and seeing no way out, is exactly what that is.  Whatever they might "mean" to you as concepts, both have the potential to exist in some form; and as the 12 steps show, is "surrendering" to this concept of a higher power to save you really any different than being in the thrall of something that is destroying you?

The difference is surely that alcohol/drug/gambling addiction, both in the form of the addiction and the substance itself, is a tangible substance with biological and chemical explanations to explain the addiction, whereas this clearly isn’t the case for any higher power, no matter what label you choose to put on it. I’ve no issue with what anybody else believes and I’m certainly more open minded than most when it comes to beliefs in things which are unproven, but my personal take on alcoholism, or indeed any other addiction, is that it is a disease, and diseases are usually treated (or managed) medically. Not that I’m in anyway suggesting that there’s anything at all wrong with going the AA route, it clearly has worked for billions of people, not least some people in this very thread, but I would have thought that medical Intervention would be likely to have successful results as well. The point is that either way the individual needs to be seeking help as it’s likely a doomed endeavour if taken on individually.

[Billy The Kid]

The difference is surely that alcohol/drug/gambling addiction, both in the form of the addiction and the substance itself, is a tangible substance with biological and chemical explanations to explain the addiction, whereas this clearly isn’t the case for any higher power, no matter what label you choose to put on it.

Let me ask you this then:

Why is it that Carl is dead yet I'm still alive? Given that my condition was every bit as chronic as his, and given that I was at one point just as powerless and hopeless as he was, how come I'm still here? Who or what do you think led to the restoration of my sanity?

For what it's worth, I spent 15 years trying to beat it on my own. I went to doctors, I went to therapists, I went to physicians, I went to specialists, I went to counsellors, I went to rehab and I went to after care. None of them worked. Like Carl, I was heading straight for the gates of death. The A.A book makes it crystal clear that the disease is progressive, therefore all alcoholics WILL eventually reach a point where they are beyond human aid. Doctors and rehab centre's may be able to help a problem drinker, but there will come a point in the progression of the alcoholics condition where no human being will be able to save them. We saw this happen with Carl

Please don't construe this as me trying to corner you or assume control of the argument. I ask in good faith and in the interest of debate, why do you think Carl is dead and not me?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

there will come a point in the progression of the alcoholics condition where no human being will be able to save them.

I presume this means no human except for themselves.

Otherwise you are stating that some sort of supreme immortal being exists.

I suggest that what is actually happening is that the alcoholic is saving themselves via support from others.

[Jm55]

Let me ask you this then:

Why is it that Carl is dead yet I'm still alive? Given that my condition was every bit as chronic as his, and given that I was at one point just as powerless and hopeless as he was, how come I'm still here? Who or what do you think led to the restoration of my sanity?

For what it's worth, I spent 15 years trying to beat it on my own. I went to doctors, I went to therapists, I went to physicians, I went to specialists, I went to counsellors, I went to rehab and I went to after care. None of them worked. Like Carl, I was heading straight for the gates of death. The A.A book makes it crystal clear that the disease is progressive, therefore all alcoholics WILL eventually reach a point where they are beyond human aid. Doctors and rehab centre's may be able to help a problem drinker, but there will come a point in the progression of the alcoholics condition where no human being will be able to save them. We saw this happen with Carl

Please don't construe this as me trying to corner you or assume control of the argument. I ask in good faith and in the interest of debate, why do you think Carl is dead and not me?

It’s not taken in any negative way mate, not at all.

As a first point, I wouldn’t say that seeking medical intervention is battling it on your own anyway, as clearly there’s a second party involved, in most cases you also have the support of family and friends, although of course sadly in many cases the alcoholic has exhausted that avenue and alienated themselves from most if not all of their close relatives.

I never knew Carl, and I don’t know you although I have read a lot of the helpful advice you’ve given in this thread. In absence of knowing either individual personally, I’d have to put it down to something as simplistic as people being different, and different things work for different people. That probably isn’t an excellent answer, but sometimes the simple answer is the best.

I personally relate to the description of problem drinker rather than alcoholic, I sometimes get myself into trouble when I drink but I can say no to it, for example if I’m driving I’m capable of only drinking within the legal limit, whereas from my understanding an alcoholic would be unable to predict whether they’d be able to do that or not. But if I was to seek A.A. help, if honestly struggle with the higher power ideal, and I get the comments you and Red Berry have posted that the ‘God’ doesn’t necessarily have to take the form of a deity, but it is nevertheless something I’d struggle to put faith in because to me it’s illogical. If it’s accepted addiction is a disease, then why can the God save you from this one but no others? I’m honestly not belittling what anyone else believes, and this isn’t the place for a discussion on belief in an almighty anyway, but that’s just my take on it.

I would imagine that different people respond to different things, A.A has obviously worked for you and billions of others and from why you’re saying it sounds like it would have been the way forward for Carl as well? But as with most things there’s more than one way to go about it and absence of A.A. doesn’t necessarily mean you’re trying to combat the issue alone.

[Mumm-Ra]

The difference is surely that alcohol/drug/gambling addiction, both in the form of the addiction and the substance itself, is a tangible substance with biological and chemical explanations to explain the addiction, whereas this clearly isn’t the case for any higher power, no matter what label you choose to put on it. I’ve no issue with what anybody else believes and I’m certainly more open minded than most when it comes to beliefs in things which are unproven, but my personal take on alcoholism, or indeed any other addiction, is that it is a disease, and diseases are usually treated (or managed) medically. Not that I’m in anyway suggesting that there’s anything at all wrong with going the AA route, it clearly has worked for billions of people, not least some people in this very thread, but I would have thought that medical Intervention would be likely to have successful results as well. The point is that either way the individual needs to be seeking help as it’s likely a doomed endeavour if taken on individually.

How can modern medicine stop someone from walking into an off-licence though? They have to get some inner resolve - mental, spiritual, whatever - from somewhere.

[Jm55]

How can modern medicine stop someone from walking into an off-licence though? They have to get some inner resolve - mental, spiritual, whatever - from somewhere.

I agree with that completely, I just don’t necessarily think it has to be in the form of some kind of god. There must be people that have beaten alcoholism via some way other than A.A,

[Son of Spion]

I presume this means no human except for themselves.

Otherwise you are stating that some sort of supreme immortal being exists.

I suggest that what is actually happening is that the alcoholic is saving themselves via support from others.

This would be my take too. Ultimately, the only person or thing that can save us is ourselves. A person can have the best help and support in the world, but if they don't use it and apply it then it's useless. People are different and react and respond differently to different things.

My own experience leads me to using a holistic and pragmatic approach to solving, or at least managing, my problems, whatever they might be. By that I mean I look at all kinds of approaches and cherry pick those that suit me best, then I employ them. This has always helped me. I never thought I'd survive past my twenties but I'm still here in my fifties so I must be doing something right.

I'm not an alcoholic, but I've had many problems I tried to solve with alcohol, and this got me into plenty of trouble over the years. I understand the slippery slope alcohol can put you on, particularly if it's a crutch you use to help you get through the day and survive.

To me, what you believe, how you perceive things and frame them in your mind can make or break you. If belief in a higher power helps you through, then use it to get you through. It's not my personal approach, but that's just me. I have my own ways. If it did help me, I would enjoy it though. As I said, I'd just use anything that is helpful and workable that enhances my life.

At the end of the day, it's us that will get us through via how we employ the things that help us. This is liberating too, because it proves to us we are not hopeless nor helpless. We can actually save ourselves from oblivion.

This is just a quick phone post, so I hope it comes across as I meant it too. It's about empowering the person to trust in themselves even if they feel it necessary to believe in a higher power in order to do so. The caveat being that belief in a higher power is not enough in itself. We have to access and use anything and everything that helps us. It will ultimately be that proactive approach that saves us. Ultimately, it will be ourselves.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I agree with that completely, I just don’t necessarily think it has to be in the form of some kind of god. There must be people that have beaten alcoholism via some way other than A.A,

There are plenty of other programs out there, involving various types of counseling e.g. CBT.

[Billy The Kid]

I presume this means no human except for themselves.

Otherwise you are stating that some sort of supreme immortal being exists.

I suggest that what is actually happening is that the alcoholic is saving themselves via support from others.

Mate, I've said a hundred times in this thread, Alcoholics CANNOT help themselves. That's not an "opinion". That is something that I can concretely attest to through personal experience. I'm also 99.9% confident that 99.9% of recovered alcoholics would fully agree with me. Again, not because they share the same "opinion" as me, but because they went through the exact same torture that I did. They actually experienced it. Step 1 clearly says it: We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

As for your second line, If you want a discussion on the "God" thing, or "supreme mortal being" as you've chosen to call it, then just say so and I'll happily go there with you and explain my take on it. Your 3rd line is categorically incorrect. You're flat out wrong there mate. Again, not a single alcoholic who has experienced the grips of this disease would agree with you. If you think "therapy" or "support" is what helps us recover then you (with all due respect) have no clue about the nature of this disease. None!

Carl was given tonnes of support, both by his family and by his care workers. He was given medical advice, counselling, therapy, you name it, he did it. But as we all know, it didn't work for him. I'll conclude by saying that in the big book of AA there is a chapter called "The Doctors Opinion". In said chapter a well known physician who specialized in the treatment of alcohol addiction writes a detailed description of what alcoholism actually is. Although written 80 years ago, what he wrote is still pretty much universally accepted throughout various medical and therapy-based professions

Here it is, pages 1 to 5: https://silkworth.net/gsowatch/litbook.pdf

Should you read it, you will note, that he clearly states that if an alcoholic is to recreate his life and recover from the disease of alcoholism then he MUST ground his ideals in a power greater than himself.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

As for your second line, If you want a discussion on the "God" thing, or "supreme mortal being" as you've chosen to call it, then just say so and I'll happily go there with you and explain my take on it.

 that he clearly states that if an alcoholic is to recreate his life and recover from the disease of alcoholism then he MUST ground his ideals in a power greater than himself.

I'm happy to hear your take on it, simply because there is no "power greater than yourself", it is yourself and significant others, wether family friends, recovered alcoholics or professionals in health and counselling.

In my opinion "God" or whatever name people chose is actually your true inner self, therefore being helped by "God" is actually being helped by yourself.

[Billy The Kid]

I'm happy to hear your take on it, simply because there is no "power greater than yourself"

If that's what you think, and if that's what you believe, then I don't see the point in me trying to explain my interpretation of my "higher power" to you

You not believing in a power greater than yourself carries no (from what I can tell) grave consequences for you

For me on the other hand, the consequence of holding the same "opinion" as you would result in me suffering a death similar to Carl's

I mean, I don't mind having this debate with you, provided you're willing to recognise the difference between an "opinion" and things that one has actually "experienced"

Is that a fair shot across the bow?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

If that's what you think, and if that's what you believe, then I don't see the point in me trying to explain my interpretation of my "higher power" to you

You not believing in a power greater than yourself carries no (from what I can tell) grave consequences for you

For me on the other hand, the consequence of holding the same "opinion" as you would result in me suffering a death similar to Carl's

I mean, I don't mind having this debate with you, provided you're willing to recognise the difference between an "opinion" and things that one has actually "experienced"

Is that a fair shot across the bow?

Yea that's a good explaination of what you have experienced and perfectly valid. None of us are the same. For the record I chose not to drink alcohol around five or six years ago. I didn't have a problem with it, I just stopped enjoying it, had out of proportion hangovers and frankly found it a boring and pointless drug.

A few years ago a recovering alcoholic, 35 years, said on finding out that i didn't drink says to his friends (also in recovery) "He doesn't drink through choice! "

Guess that says something.

I'll dip out of further discussion on this, because as you correctly assert I don't and can't fully understand alcoholism.

[Billy The Kid]

I'll dip out of further discussion on this, because as you correctly assert I don't and can't fully understand alcoholism.

All cool beans mate.

The first 5 pages of this give an excellent insight

https://silkworth.net/gsowatch/litbook.pdf

Deffo worth a read. It majorly opened my eyes the first time I read it

I would also go as far as to say that reading and absorbing the first 5 pages helped save my life

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

All cool beans mate.

The first 5 pages of this give an excellent insight

https://silkworth.net/gsowatch/litbook.pdf

I read the first 5 pages and some of Bill's story earlier.

[Billy The Kid]

There must be people that have beaten alcoholism via some way other than A.A,

I've never met such a person. Ever.

There may be exceptions to that rule out there, but I've honestly never come across them

For what it's worth, most "treatment centers" all use the 12 steps of AA as their central programme for recovery

[Jm55]

I've never met such a person. Ever.

There may be exceptions to that rule out there, but I've honestly never come across them

For what it's worth, most "treatment centers" all use the 12 steps of AA as their central programme for recovery

It might be that I’m mis-understanding you in terms of the higher power point. The love of others is a power greater than myself, that’s something I could put my faith in. It’s just the God thing which is a turn off for me, as I really struggle to believe in any of it, although that obviously doesn’t make it false.

[Corkboy]

Billy, you're getting dangerously close to saying you can't beat a drink problem without some sort of spiritual angle. In fact, the AA started out as a pretty religious thing and remains so. I'm glad it works for you to such an extent that you're happy to recommend it, but it might not be for everyone. If anyone is interested, google "aa success rate" and have a look.

In fact, I think AA obviously works pretty well for the kind of person who is open to spiritual impulses, and most people are. As you put it, there's an element of surrender to something greater that you think is crucial. Some people aren't like that. Some people have to stand on their own, or rely on family and friends in their struggle. There's a reason AA does sponsors, and it's foolish to think that a method which relies on meeting other people doesn't rely on that support system. I've often heard of alcos who are off drink, and when they get a mad notion, they get to their nearest meeting. Don't tell me that's about a higher power, that's people helping people.

But here's the other thing. I think you have a somewhat narrow idea of what an alcoholic is (or maybe yours is the correct definition, I'm not sure). There is a huge range of drinkers out there, and a lot of them aren't people who go on benders for three days, or black out, or are a problem for their family. An awful lot of people drink too much, and could do with help and assistance but aren't spiritual. A lot of people drink too much and cope to the extent that they've seamlessly folded it into their lives. No current ill effects but it will catch up on them sooner or later, healthwise, and maybe they've made that calculation and said, cool.

Alcohol problems aren't just about all day drinkers, like Carl, or guys who went on three day benders, like you related. This thread is about alcohol issues, not just stone cold alcoholics, whatever alcoholic actually means. I know countless people who drink more than is good for them, and quite a few who have been told to cut down and are struggling. There's a place in this thread for them, too.

[TepidT2O]

Billy, you're getting dangerously close to saying you can't beat a drink problem without some sort of spiritual angle. In fact, the AA started out as a pretty religious thing and remains so. I'm glad it works for you to such an extent that you're happy to recommend it, but it might not be for everyone. If anyone is interested, google "aa success rate" and have a look.

In fact, I think AA obviously works pretty well for the kind of person who is open to spiritual impulses, and most people are. As you put it, there's an element of surrender to something greater that you think is crucial. Some people aren't like that. Some people have to stand on their own, or rely on family and friends in their struggle. There's a reason AA does sponsors, and it's foolish to think that a method which relies on meeting other people doesn't rely on that support system. I've often heard of alcos who are off drink, and when they get a mad notion, they get to their nearest meeting. Don't tell me that's about a higher power, that's people helping people.

But here's the other thing. I think you have a somewhat narrow idea of what an alcoholic is (or maybe yours is the correct definition, I'm not sure). There is a huge range of drinkers out there, and a lot of them aren't people who go on benders for three days, or black out, or are a problem for their family. An awful lot of people drink too much, and could do with help and assistance but aren't spiritual. A lot of people drink too much and cope to the extent that they've seamlessly folded it into their lives. No current ill effects but it will catch up on them sooner or later, healthwise, and maybe they've made that calculation and said, cool.

Alcohol problems aren't just about all day drinkers, like Carl, or guys who went on three day benders, like you related. This thread is about alcohol issues, not just stone cold alcoholics, whatever alcoholic actually means. I know countless people who drink more than is good for them, and quite a few who have been told to cut down and are struggling. There's a place in this thread for them, too.

Pretty sure he isn’t. 

It may be spiritual for some people, but form what he’s said it doesn’t have to be and that higher power could be a whole host of different things to different people.

If billy had meant that he’d have said it. I know that much about him.  He doesn’t mince his words.

[Billy The Kid]

Billy, you're getting dangerously close to saying you can't beat a drink problem without some sort of spiritual angle. In fact, the AA started out as a pretty religious thing and remains so. I'm glad it works for you to such an extent that you're happy to recommend it, but it might not be for everyone. If anyone is interested, google "aa success rate" and have a look.

Corkboy, what I'm saying is that should you be a real alcoholic, as described in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, then your chances of overcoming the illness without the help of a power greater than yourself are virtually zero. Again, that's not an "opinion". That has been my experience and also the experience of every other fellow recovered alcoholic that I know.

As for Googling "AA Success Rate", the fact that you've trotted that out screams to me that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know the actual causes behind that decline. I do. As do most AA members. It's nuanced and complex. There's much more to it than it merely being a case of AA "not being for everyone".

With respect Corky, (and I do respect you) but you have a tendency to do this. You come wading into debates that you don't really fully understand and start muddying the waters with ill-informed opinions. I'll repeat again what I said on the previous page: The "OPINIONS" of non-alcoholics (especially those who do NOT fully understand the true nature of the disease) can serve to kill an actual alcoholic should he be foolish enough to buy into them.

Lastly, you're right, this thread isn't just for Alcoholics, it's open to everyone. I never said that it wasn't, so I don't know why you insinuated that. The rest of your post is too muddy and tangental to dissect so I'll leave it there

[Jm55]

Corkboy, what I'm saying is that should you be a real alcoholic, as described in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, then your chances of overcoming the illness without the help of a power greater than yourself are virtually zero. Again, that's not an "opinion". That has been my experience and also the experience of every other fellow recovered alcoholic that I know.

Is there not an argument for saying that a definition of an alcoholic exists (and is valid )other than in the Alcovolics Anonymous book?

[Billy The Kid]

Is there not an argument for saying that a definition of an alcoholic exists (and is valid )other than in the Alcovolics Anonymous book?

The Alcoholics Anonymous book was written by alcoholics. It also contains detailed contributions from medical experts who specialize in dealing with alcoholic addiction. Almost every alcoholic, myself included, completely agree with, and identify with, the description of alcoholism as outlined and explained in the book. As I mentioned earlier, I do not know of any real alcoholics who have managed to recover from alcoholism by using a different method to the the one outlined in the big book of AA. Again, that's not an "opinion" mate. That is my experience and the experience of every other alcoholic I know. Deduce from that what you will

[Son of Spion]

...Carl was given tonnes of support, both by his family and by his care workers. He was given medical advice, counselling, therapy, you name it, he did it. But as we all know, it didn't work for him...

Apologies for picking just this portion of your post out to comment on, but I think it's important.

It may just be semantics, but I always shudder a little when anyone says that counselling, therapy and support ''didn't work'' for them. As a qualified counsellor I don't see it in such black and white terms of it 'worked' or 'didn't work'. Regardless of the presenting problem, therapy is not like a drug that either cures something or doesn't. Therapy, support of family and professionals etc is only as good as what you do with it yourself.

In my younger years I saw GPs, psychiatrists, psychologists, counsellors and also had support and advice from people who cared about me. I did absolutely nothing of use with it and continued on my way to self-destruction, self-harm and near suicide. In latter years I've accessed different avenues of support and utilised different therapeutic approaches and have changed my life to the extent that I hardly recognise my former self. It wasn't that those early interventions didn't work and the latter ones did. The only difference was me and my willingness to apply what I 'd learned and keep going with it regardless of setbacks along the way.

No steps can save anyone unless they are willing to save themselves. Different things help different people, but nothing changes unless we take personal responsibility for saving ourselves. It's like any destination in life. There are different roads that can take you there, but you will only ever get there if you are prepared to walk the miles. Just having the map is not enough. This is why I say that, ultimately, only we can save ourselves. Even if the answers are given to us, nothing happens unless we do the hard work ourselves.

I mean no disrespect to you, and I can only imagine the horrors you have gone through, but I'm all about people empowering themselves wherever they can, and I don't quite go with the idea that alcoholics cannot help themselves. Why? Well, because even those who did the steps programme and came out the other side all the better for it absolutely have helped themselves. It is them and them alone who did actually take those steps. It is them who have personally made positive use of the support offered. Without their own efforts, nothing would have changed.

[Billy The Kid]

Apologies for picking just this portion of your post out to comment on, but I think it's important.

Valid post mate. Therapy and counselling certainly have their benefits. But allow me to share analogy if I may

Take a tight rope walker as an example. When crossing the tight rope he uses an extended pole to maintain his balance. Underneath him is a safety net to save him from serious injury should he fall. In the case of the alcoholic, the safety net is his therapist and/or his sponsor and/or his fellow AA members who frequent his local meetings. They are there to catch him if he falls and to help him back up on the tight rope.

However, they cannot help him to traverse safely to the other side. Once he's back up on the tightrope, his only hope of successfully traversing is dependent on how he uses his balancing pole. Again, in the case of the alcoholic, his balancing pole is the 12 step programme of AA

Therapy and meetings are support mechanisms. Sobriety only comes from successfully working the steps. I hope that makes sense

[Corkboy]

As for Googling "AA Success Rate", the fact that you've trotted that out screams to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

It means I do know what I'm talking about. I've read quite a bit on the topic but I'm not getting into it here.

With respect Corky, (and I do respect you) but you have a tendency to do this. You come wading into debates that you don't really fully understand and start muddying the waters with ill-informed opinions. I'll repeat again what I said on the previous page: The "OPINIONS" of non-alcoholics (especially those who do NOT fully understand the true nature of the disease) can serve to kill an actual alcoholic should he be foolish enough to buy into them.

Again, not having that. I posted a link recently on this thread about what sudden withdrawal can do to drinkers. With respect, Billy, show some more humility. Your understanding of something isn't everyone's, and your experience of something isn't everyone's.

[Billy The Kid]

It means I do know what I'm talking about. I've read quite a bit on the topic but I'm not getting into it here.

So because you've typed some search terms into Google and read some articles you think you know what you're talking about when it comes to alcoholism? Corky, have you ever considered or pondered the notion that an actual alcoholic could be reading this thread and your contributions to it? Have you ever considered that your opinions (although well intentioned) could serve to literally kill that alcoholic should he be impressionable enough to buy into some of the ill-informed bullshit that you spout?

With respect, Billy, show some more humility. Your understanding of something isn't everyone's, and your experience of something isn't everyone's.

With respect mate, I watched one contributor to this thread die from alcoholism so I'll be fucked if I'm going to stand by and allow people to just roll in here and espouse their opinions without ensuring that they know what the fuck they're actually talking about. You included!

Unless you can give me a concrete example of an actual alcoholic who disagrees with anything I've said in this thread, then perhaps you should be the one to back up and show some humility. You're right, my experiences of something isn't "everyones". But I'm not talking about "everyone", am I? I'm talking specifically about one category of person. A category that you CLEARLY know very little about. I'm sorry mate, but you don't!

[24/7]

Right. Calm it down, stop making it personal, or this is getting locked - like a few other threads tonight have been - because it all got a bit too heated.

Want a debate with someone on a specific point? Try PMs.

Opinions are like arseholes anyway - everyone's got one and most of them stink.

This is always going to be a sensitive topic - so I'd encourage EVERYONE to show a tad more sensitivity towards each other - and using crypto-diplomatic language doesn't cut it.

Just remember why this thread exists. Thanks

[Billy The Kid]

Jim you know I love you, and I absolutely agree with you, opinions are indeed like arseholes

Which is why they ought to be offered with caution, especially when it comes to a subject as perilous as alcoholism

That was, and still is my overriding point

I know I come across as overbearing in here at times, but it's only because I don't want anyone to suffer what I did. Or to end up like Carl did

Peace and love. God bless and good night

[Son of Spion]

Valid post mate. Therapy and counselling certainly have their benefits. But allow me to share analogy if I may

Take a tight rope walker as an example. When crossing the tight rope he uses an extended pole to maintain his balance. Underneath him is a safety net to save him from serious injury should he fall. In the case of the alcoholic, the safety net is his therapist and/or his sponsor and/or his fellow AA members who frequent his local meetings. They are there to catch him if he falls and to help him back up on the tight rope.

However, they cannot help him to traverse safely to the other side. Once he's back up on the tightrope, his only hope of successfully traversing is dependent on how he uses his balancing pole. Again, in the case of the alcoholic, his balancing pole is the 12 step programme of AA

Therapy and meetings are support mechanisms. Sobriety only comes from successfully working the steps. I hope that makes sense

Thanks for the reply. Yes, it does make sense. We are sort of saying the same thing in a way. I'm suggesting that it's ultimately the person with the problem's own efforts that will see him/her traverse the tightrope successfully. As you say, it's how the person uses the balancing pole that counts. I agree totally there. In the scenario you describe, the AA 12 Step Programme is acting as the pole. As you also acknowledged, there are also other methods of support that may enhance the stability of that balancing pole.

The whole issue is pretty harrowing. I've been on the receiving end of violence and abuse by a partner with serious alcohol issues. My ex-girlfriend's brother died through alcoholism, as did her mother. My friend's husband was an alcoholic and so too is her daughter now. It's all around us, killing people we know and love. Destroying relationships and splitting families. I hope all those affected somehow find the strength to come through it.

Anyway, I'll leave it there now. Take care of yourself.