Topic: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread

[moondog]

Highway to Hell??
That's sure to raise a few smiles at the end of the service , well in Helen.

[BlackandWhitePaul]

Helen has sent pictures of the leaflet the family has made for Carl's funeral.

The funeral is at 10.00 am on Wednesday November 29th.

I truly hope some RAWKites are able to make it.

Beautiful.

RIP Carl.
..............
EDITED
When I quoted you I thought the images would show up, that is what I meant by beautiful, the images, the pictures and the words and choice of songs.

[Ziltoid]

Excellent - A Dream Theater song. I have that on my phone so will listen to it on the 29th.

[Slightly Less Mediocre Baron Bennekov]

Beautiful.

RIP Carl.
..............
EDITED
When I quoted you I thought the images would show up, that is what I meant by beautiful, the images, the pictures and the words and choice of songs.

I know mate...

[telekon]

May he rest in peace.

You'll never walk alone.

[Mumm-Ra]

Threw a few quid in - nice one for setting this up

[TepidT2O]

Helen has sent pictures of the leaflet the family has made for Carl's funeral.

The funeral is at 10.00 am on Wednesday November 29th.

I truly hope some RAWKites are able to make it.

This is very sad, very moving too... But it makes seem all too real..

[AndyInVA]

This is very sad, very moving too... But it makes seem all too real..

I felt the same. Not just user names on a fan site who we offer advise to each other. Carl passing is very very real, very sad and has a sad affect on me.

Does make me wonder what would have had to materially changed in his life to allow him to change direction for good. Very very sad.

[24/7]

Hearing and feeling that. Having been directly involved in the past, it's a fucking sucker punch to feel that I probably could and should have done more this time around. Sorry Carl - I should have tried harder

[tinner777]

That's not fair lads, (andy and jim) I don't post a lot but I see the support people get, especially in this thread.

[24/7]

That's not fair lads, (andy and jim) I don't post a lot but I see the support people get, especially in this thread.

It just hurts to think more could have been done - but yes, this thread gives a lot of support and it's undeniably one of the best on the webz for that.........and it really makes you think about stuff.......I'm glad it's here and I know it's directly benefitted most who read it.

(I know I have been inspired by it, personally that is........saying no more on that other than thank you, Carl............)

[Oddball]

Hearing and feeling that. Having been directly involved in the past, it's a fucking sucker punch to feel that I probably could and should have done more this time around. Sorry Carl - I should have tried harder

Bullshit mate. Don't think like that. With the greatest of respect to Helen should she be following this thread but what could you have done? You going to sit on him 24/7 to stop Carl going to offy? Donate your liver? Unfortunately only Carl could have saved himself, and when he finally went to it was too late. Do t out yourself through thoughts that arnt needed mate. You've done so much for so many people, you are a true fighter for many and one hell of a man.

[Mumm-Ra]

Bullshit mate. Don't think like that. With the greatest of respect to Helen should she be following this thread but what could you have done? You going to sit on him 24/7 to stop Carl going to offy? Donate your liver? Unfortunately only Carl could have saved himself, and when he finally went to it was too late. Do t out yourself through thoughts that arnt needed mate. You've done so much for so many people, you are a true fighter for many and one hell of a man.

Carl tried himself, over the course of this thread he went through at least two terrible detox experiences, he really did try. He really knew what he was up against and he put himself through hell to try and beat it.

It's a fuckin serious thing, when it gets to that point, with some people its as bad as heroin or meth or whatever else. It's a weird feeling, I don't know if other people here were in denial or something but I followed this thread religiously and I knew full well I was watching someone slowly die.

I'd see him go from being clean and sober to saying something offhand about a few pints, or the coppers hassling him for having a can, and I knew what it meant. Was it a cry for help, probably not, probably just his way of letting us know he was back on it. He was a tough bastard and I have all the respect in the world for him, but he just couldn't beat it. Don't know what else to say.

[Mumm-Ra]

Now i know this isnt an agony aunt forum etc but can any of you guys and gals help.

i have a lil drink problem and i need to seriously cut it down. i cant go to the docs for help. does anyone here have any ideas? i dont want to quit, just drink say 2 times a week, for the footy etc.

presently im drinking about 5-6 pints of export and 5 pints of 7.5% cider a day. i know its not immense amounts but its cost me my marriage already.

sarcastic comments welcome as well cos knowing Rawk someone is itching to drop one lol.

Fuck fuck fuck it's heartbreaking to think it could have somehow been stopped here. If he'd got that awakening that Billy did, for example.

I never say anything to anyone, for some stupid british fear of being too personal, too emotional or whatever, but I'm  resolving now, that if ever in my life I see someone having a problem I'm stepping in to help them, whether its awkward or uncomfortable or whatever, we all know what the right thing to do is, let's just try and do it

[Billy The Kid]

In my honest opinion, Carl's issues went far beyond alcohol. His drinking was a symptom of something that lay much deeper. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, he had a majorly low opinion of himself. Even when things were going good for him he had a tendency to come out with stuff like "knowing me I'll fuck this up eventually" or words to that effect.

He was also adverse to allowing people to help him with his demons. He didn't like AA because he viewed it as religious (which of course it isn't). He didn't like counselors and he didn't like therapists. He hated the NHS in general. All of which, again, I believe, are tied to issues that were rooted way beneath the surface

I don't mean this in a snide way, I mean it in an almost loving way: you'd have needed about 5 Ph.D's in clinical psychology to have even figured out what Carl's true issues actually were, another 5 to figure out what caused them and another 5 to figure out a programme of therapy to fix him. And even then there would be no guarantee that he'd turn up for the treatment.

Truth be told, we did all we could for him. Lack of support isn't the reason why he's dead. As I say, I think it's due to reasons that none of us ever really knew about or understood. God be good to him

[damomad]

In my honest opinion, Carl's issues went far beyond alcohol. His drinking was a symptom of something that lay much deeper. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, he had a majorly low opinion of himself. Even when things were going good for him he had a tendency to come out with stuff like "knowing me I'll fuck this up eventually" or words to that effect.

He was also adverse to allowing people to help him with his demons. He didn't like AA because he viewed it as religious (which of course it isn't). He didn't like counselors and he didn't like therapists. He hated the NHS in general. All of which, again, I believe, are tied to issues that were rooted way beneath the surface

I don't mean this in a snide way, I mean it in an almost loving way: you'd have needed about 5 Ph.D's in clinical psychology to have even figured out what Carl's true issues actually were, another 5 to figure out what caused them and another 5 to figure out a programme of therapy to fix him. And even then there would be no guarantee that he'd turn up for the treatment.

Truth be told, we did all we could for him. Lack of support isn't the reason why he's dead. As I say, I think it's due to reasons that none of us ever really knew about or understood. God be good to him

Well put, hope it's a perspective that can can help others.

Maybe someone could have done more to help but sometimes it just wouldn't have mattered anyway. I don't say that from knowing Carl well enough but from having reflected on the death of a close friend who also battled illness.

[rob1966]

It just hurts to think more could have been done - but yes, this thread gives a lot of support and it's undeniably one of the best on the webz for that.........and it really makes you think about stuff.......I'm glad it's here and I know it's directly benefitted most who read it.

(I know I have been inspired by it, personally that is........saying no more on that other than thank you, Carl............)

Mate don't be hard on yourself, its ultimately up to the person to change. I tried for years and years to get my Ma to jack the fags, tried everything I could think of, calm talk, shouting, telling her she would die young, that she wouldn't be around to see the grandkids she wanted from me if I ever got married. In March 2007, two months after I got engaged and 6 months before the wedding, I held her in the palliative care ward in Southport, just after the doctor had told her she was riddled with cancer, and she said sorry. She died April 1st, 61 years of age.

[Slightly Less Mediocre Baron Bennekov]

Billy hits it pretty much on the head, I think.

Jim, you know we both tried in many ways behind the scenes and it was Carl's choice not to accept these offers for help. I think I've told a few peeps in here that at one point after one of Carl's more serious incidents I offered him to fly him over to live with me and my family for some months. The idea was to get him out of his usual environment and get him started on a new path to recovery. He rejected it very politely and when asked why he didn't want to take the opportunity he said he was afraid of leaving his usual environment because he didn't know where else to turn. He was confident he could leave the drink alone but like Billy said he always included some variation of the remark: "But knowing myself I'll probably fuck it up".

Carl had his demons and unfortunately he wasn't able to accept the helping hands from others in his battle to beat these demons. I've been surprisingly sad and moved by his death. By surprisingly I mean that even though I spent many many hours writing and talking to Carl but never met him in person, I feel like I've lost a dear and close friend. What makes it even more strange is that we didn't speak too much the last 3 months of his life which I think comes down to his health moving from bad to worse and therefore he didn't want to talk to too many people.

Thinking back Carl always had this sense of embarrassment about him. He didn't express it in writing but when I was on the phone or Skype with him he had this thing about him. It was either embarrassment or just awkwardness because he didn't know how to accept and welcome help from others. He once said he didn't deserve the love from his family, friends and his GF at the time. When I asked him why he couldn't give an answer. instead he started to tear up and cracked a joke instead to lighten the mood of the situation.

I miss you Carl...

[MichaelA]

Rest In Peace, Carl.

[AndyInVA]

Hearing and feeling that. Having been directly involved in the past, it's a fucking sucker punch to feel that I probably could and should have done more this time around. Sorry Carl - I should have tried harder

I am totally with Billy. Carl had a great amount of real world support and I don't know RAWK as a support group could have done more. Carl did seem to have a lot more issues than just pure drink. Drink just seemed to be how it showed his problems. He was pretty open about the problems he had with his parents growing up, his relationship with his brother, his ex wife and the list goes on.

But he seemed to have a lot of support from the NHS and from some girlfriends he had.

My point was trying to wonder if there was ultimately anything that truly would have changed the direction he was on long term. He did seem to have several bouts of happiness when he cleaned himself up and his life seemed back to normal, but then sadly it never seemed to last.

Just for my own wondering, I wonder what it really takes to turn around someone who has a several issues, including one being severe alcoholism.

[24/7]

Feeling very humble today. Appreciating the messages from other so thanks for giving some perspective. Yes Carl had demons that extended beyond drink. I just still wish we had had more time with him....

[Peabee]

I need to stop drinking.  I came off buprenorphine 4 months ago, after being on some form of opiates every day for ten years, but I’ve started drinking more instead.  It’s not a huge amount, but I started at lunchtime today, whereas i was only drinking in the evenings. But I can recognise the patterns from when I started using heroin; e.g. I was drinking in front of my girlfriend, but I’ve been having sly drinks on my own this week.  If I don’t take action soon, it could easily become a long term problem. 

It doesn’t help that I’ve been injured for 3 months, so I haven’t been able to participate in my other addiction: running.

(I’ll miss Carl’s interjections and thoughts here.  )

[TepidT2O]

Feeling very humble today. Appreciating the messages from other so thanks for giving some perspective. Yes Carl had demons that extended beyond drink. I just still wish we had had more time with him....

drink killed my brother..  that’s why I pop in here form time to time...

Like Carl, my brother had deeper lying issues and an inability (?) to accept himself for all his strengths and weaknesses.

What I learned was that you can only be there.  You can’t do the change, you can only support them.  You did that more than most would.  Carl knew where you were, he knew you’d give him support, but he found that final step too difficult. 

It’s all so very sad, but I’d know for a few years that Carl was likely to die, I recognised the steps so well from my brother.  My brother was a high achieving professional, and went to a top university, it reminds me that alcohol respects no social standing, no education, no upbringing.

[Peabee]

drink killed my brother..  that’s why I pop in here form time to time...

Like Carl, my brother had deeper lying issues and an inability (?) to accept himself for all his strengths and weaknesses.

What I learned was that you can only be there.  You can’t do the change, you can only support them.  You did that more than most would.  Carl knew where you were, he knew you’d give him support, but he found that final step too difficult. 

It’s all so very sad, but I’d know for a few years that Carl was likely to die, I recognised the steps so well from my brother.  My brother was a high achieving professional, and went to a top university, it reminds me that alcohol respects no social standing, no education, no upbringing.

Sorry to hear that about your brother. 

You’re spot on about alcohol (and drugs) in your last paragraph.  I have a first class degree in Mathematics, but that grasp of rationality and logic hasn’t helped me, and I’ve found fellow addicts are a broad representation of society.  It can affect any of us. 

[Slightly Less Mediocre Baron Bennekov]

drink killed my brother..  that’s why I pop in here form time to time...

Like Carl, my brother had deeper lying issues and an inability (?) to accept himself for all his strengths and weaknesses.

What I learned was that you can only be there.  You can’t do the change, you can only support them.  You did that more than most would.  Carl knew where you were, he knew you’d give him support, but he found that final step too difficult. 

It’s all so very sad, but I’d know for a few years that Carl was likely to die, I recognised the steps so well from my brother.  My brother was a high achieving professional, and went to a top university, it reminds me that alcohol respects no social standing, no education, no upbringing.

So sorry for you Tepid, but you're spot on!

Addiction knows no boundaries or respects no social standing. But how much can you do as a relative, good friend or bystander...? Nowt is my answer, IF the person doesn't have the mindset to change things.

Only just tonight did I meet 2 former employees who worked for me 8 years ago when they were just kids ( 15-16 years old). They grew up together and both come from homes where social problems were the norm and both grew up with addiction somewhat close to them.

One of them has been gifted with the determination to change his situation from his starting point whereas the other one (who I've spent SO many hours talking to him trying to make him realise what he was doing) hasn't changed a bit. It hit me tonight that if he doesn't change his ways he'll wind up dead within the next 5 years but the other is home free. He's got his shit sorted (mentally) but the other hasn't gotten anywhere with his problems.

My point is that I've tried over the years to get the "problem child" to change his ways by mentoring him, talking to his mum and making her a part of it as well as talking to his mates and making them a part of it but no matter what he's always avoided the problem. However now reality seems to have catched up with him and I'm not sure what to do.

He's not a second son to me, but he is somehow and honestly I'm scared of what's going to happen to him. I've known him for almost half his life and I can't bear the thought of "abandoning" him now even though I haven't been in touch with the last year or so...

Fuck me this addiction shit is a c*nt!

[AndyInVA]

I offered him to fly him over to live with me and my family for some months. The idea was to get him out of his usual environment and get him started on a new path to recovery. He rejected it very politely

I'm pretty humbled by this. I cant imagine anyone doing more for him

[24/7]

I'm pretty humbled by this. I cant imagine anyone doing more for him

Such a powerful, personal and courageous thing to offer, yes. I had no idea, Tom......

[Slightly Less Mediocre Baron Bennekov]

I'm pretty humbled by this. I cant imagine anyone doing more for him

Don't be, Andy. I was in a position where I had the opportunity to make the offer.

Such a powerful, personal and courageous thing to offer, yes. I had no idea, Tom......

I thought I'd shared it with you earlier. But yes it was powerful - perhaps too powerful for Carl to comprehend - but I did it out of a love for him I can't really explain. I guess "brother from another mother" covers it best really...

[spen71]

I’ve been thinking about Carl a lot over the last week or so.    It has all made me realise how grateful that, 7 years ago, something clicked in my mind and I thought “shit this is only going to get worse”.   I had lost my house, the missus, my licence, the car and a career.   Fortunately I kept hold of my kids and my parents.   AA has helped me clean up most of the mental side of my life.

How often did Carl try AA? I know it’s not for everyone and that only 3% of people who try stick with it.

[24/7]

I’ve been thinking about Carl a lot over the last week or so.    It has all made me realise how grateful that, 7 years ago, something clicked in my mind and I thought “shit this is only going to get worse”.   I had lost my house, the missus, my licence, the car and a career.   Fortunately I kept hold of my kids and my parents.   AA has helped me clean up most of the mental side of my life.

How often did Carl try AA? I know it’s not for everyone and that only 3% of people who try stick with it.

So good to read of your positive turnaround. AA worked for my dad. The thing about AA is that it really, really wasn't Carl's cup of herbal tea.....

[GrandOldAuntieHelenVanriel]

Bullshit mate. Don't think like that. With the greatest of respect to Helen should she be following this thread but what could you have done? You going to sit on him 24/7 to stop Carl going to offy? Donate your liver? Unfortunately only Carl could have saved himself, and when he finally went to it was too late. Do t out yourself through thoughts that arnt needed mate. You've done so much for so many people, you are a true fighter for many and one hell of a man.

Well said and I totally agree. I have the exact same thoughts. The one thing I will always remember being told when Carl had a low spell a few years back ....you can take a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink... I think this says it all.
Never think you did not do enough, we did what we could when we could and as best we could. That has to count for something. No it doesn’t help right now but we have to find some comfort in the fact that he knew we tried and he was grateful. The only person who couldn’t save him was him.... 💔

[BRdispatch05]

Hey guys sorry to step in at such a sensitive time. I know, "Don't say sorry!", It's just so easy to feel undeserving.

I've thought a lot about Carl the last couple weeks. A lot. And every morning I wake up (drunk or hungover I'm not even really sure anymore) knowing I'm on the same path. I wake up, take a shower, and almost uncontrollably say to myself "You're going to die", until I stop myself.

 I've been to rehab which helped, AA where it's uncomfortable and I only end up thinking of the right words to say instead of saying what I actually feel, and I'm lost. I listen to self help podcasts daily and could guide most with reasonable advice regurgitated by more reasonable people, that said knowing my only thought is how I can get home soon enough to drink. I don't even know why at this point. I guess it helps drowning any pain from the present and past, but I know that's all it is. It isn't dealing or growing from it, it's drowning it out. It's also habitual, just as much as eating at certain times of the day, this is like dinner for me.

I've created and deleted so many posts in this thread, knowing it was created after drinking, and like clockwork waking up tomorrow to tell myself how stupid I am for posting in this thread whilst drunk. But I avoid it while sober. I don't know why. I was sober almost 2 years, I had something difficult happen to me, and I dealt with it by drinking 12 to 15 beers a night for more than a year. My family doesn't know, only my roommate and cousin who is my best friend. I mean they might, but are maybe avoiding the topic as I become defensive and hate that it controls almost every aspect of my life and that seemingly the only solution is going back to rehab a 3rd time.

I'm 30 years old, no wife, kids, a mediocre job, and to sum this up all I want is to have those and want to progress in life, and this disease prevents everything I want from happening. I really hate how I'm living my life right now. It controls every aspect of it, and I do not want to be this person.

I'm not sure what I'm asking. It's more like a journal entry.

Thanks for letting me post.

[24/7]

I'm not sure what I'm asking. It's more like a journal entry.

Thanks for letting me post.

Friend. You are amongst friends here so I feel safe saying this and I acknowledge that you are expressing your pain. You are not alone. I won't patronise you by saying I know exactly what you are going through........because I don't and I can't. What I can say though is that I FEEL your pain - and the best bit was where you said you didn't want to be this person you see yourself to be right now - which suggests you are capable of seeing the kind of person you want to be........

So tell us what that person looks and sounds like - express what he writes like - talk with us - there are so many people here who DO know EXACTLY what you are going through - I'm just a vessel - use it - open up.

We are here for you, friend.

[24/7]

Well said and I totally agree. I have the exact same thoughts. The one thing I will always remember being told when Carl had a low spell a few years back ....you can take a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink... I think this says it all.
Never think you did not do enough, we did what we could when we could and as best we could. That has to count for something. No it doesn’t help right now but we have to find some comfort in the fact that he knew we tried and he was grateful. The only person who couldn’t save him was him.... 💔

Once again, wise words, eloquently expressed. I like you more and more each post. Please stay and be a permanent part of our community. We might even convert you to liking decent footie....................just stay clear of the moaning c*nt-tards in the post-match threads if you wish to preserve your sanity xxx

[BRdispatch05]

I really appreciate that 24/7 and I know I will tomorrow too. As articulate as I might come across right now (probably not though) I'm drunk, sad, and alone.

I want to be the guy that's sober and happy and does adventurous things like I used to without alcohol, I want to be someone capable of being a good partner, but I prevent those possibilities because at the present moment, all I want to do is go home and drink. My recent past relationships have all ended because that desire overpowered companionship. No matter how good it was.

I've lost so many friendships because I exclude myself for dishonest reasons to go home and drink. I was in a wedding for another close cousin recently, but instead of staying the night at their place a few hours away I decided to drive 10 hours home and back so I wouldn't miss a night of drinking. She has been one of my closest friends for 25 years. I missed it because I was too hungover to drive. They understood. I had the "flu".

Or they knew the real reason. I don't know. I had a chance to get back together with my ex recently and drank before meeting her in hopes it would "loosen me up". It maybe did, but then we kissed and she realized I had drank and hasn't spoken to me since. So I went home and have been drinking more than usual to drown the feelings of being rejected again.

I won't say it helps, but at least in these moments I'm too obliterated to recognize the agony I feel from the pain that is caused from this disease.

Makes a lot of sense, doesnt it.

[24/7]

I want to be the guy that's sober and happy and does adventurous things like I used to without alcohol,

(Firstly, kudos for that degree of painful honesty - bromantic hug coming your way - cos you deserve it - now for dar real shit)

Hang on to that thought, friend, and if you are struggling to understand how to achieve that goal..............ASK US! We'll help. If you really, really, truly, honestly want it and are prepared to fight for it. Cos that's what you'll have to do - WANTING is one thing - doing the hard, painful, but ultimately rewarding graft is another.

Back me up here, ladles and jellyspoons.......

[Fiasco]

Or they knew the real reason. I don't know.

Something struck a chord with me when I read this part. The idea that you can live a lie and hide things so long that you actually think you have everyone fooled, when in reality they all know too well but don't know how to approach you about it so they ignore it or flirt around it. At least I think this is what you're saying in a way.

Jim's spot on. Wanting is very easy. What isn't easy is action. Admitting you have a problem is indeed a big step but you have to continue to move forward from that point. If you're lucky, years could pass and you could find yourself still resting on the idea that 'hey, I've admitted it, so I'm getting somewhere.' Things wont change or be fixed overnight, but it is all about progress.

I've not had need to venture into this thread often but RAWK has been a godsend for me over the years with other issues. The anxiety and depression threads, this alcohol thread started by our friend Carl, one or two others. They are all linked by a daisy chain I feel, at least very loosely. If you or anyone else needs to talk via PM you are always welcome to message me, it wont be a problem and I'll be happy to help if I can. I might just be another voice in the small hours, or a conversation about something else might develop which occupies you and lifts your mood one percent. Every little does indeed help.

Keep your head up mate.

[jambutty]

Hearing and feeling that. Having been directly involved in the past, it's a fucking sucker punch to feel that I probably could and should have done more this time around. Sorry Carl - I should have tried harder

Don't you start!

Soft get.

[24/7]

Don't you start!

Soft get.

Fluffy as fuck me, these days, when you lose someone you really cared about. Apart from the match threads, where I don't give a fuck.......

[Slightly Less Mediocre Baron Bennekov]

BRdispatch05, as much as I'm reluctant to admit it : Jim is right in everything he has written (to you) so far.

I've dealt with anger issues for the most part of my life. I know this is the Alcohol thread but I wanted to say that no matter your issue changing it requires determination and willpower. I came to a point where my wife sat me down with my children and asked them to tell me to my face how scared I made them when I had my tantrums. That hit me right between the eyes and I started to be aware of how I behaved. Furthermore I added counselling to the mix and I have now managed to be able to control my anger when it starts boiling inside of me. I'm not saying it's easy at all, and I can imagine having a physical craving on top of the mental things must be even harder.

But as Jim says we're here for you mate. Tell us what's going on and we're more than willing to help and support!! YNWA!