Topic: Zonal Marking

[hesbighesred]

OK mate - thanks for coming back on that.
I have no doubt Rafa weighs up these factors - it's just us mere mortals will always have our
own theories/concerns and want to know why certain things are done instead of others.

Oh yeah spot on. The only reason that 'leaving a man up the pitch' thing doesn't bother me is because of that MOTD montage from years ago now - it stuck in my head so it's fairly obvious why Rafa didn't do it, just as an example. The posts one is purely because I've wondered about that myself and so have tried to figure it out, which I think I have reasonably well.

Of course, it also stands to reason that I've no idea if we'd concede fewer goals if we did put men on the posts - but I think there's solid reasons as to why we don't do it.

[Effes]

Can someone answer this question that I asked earlier?  I think it got lost amongst the
traffic of posts.

How do we combat the late runner to the near post?

The players at the near post are blind to the incoming attacker, by the time he arrives the ball
is on it's way into the near post. The defenders are busy watching that incoming cross.

This seems to me, to be a bit of an achilles heel for zonal marking.

[hesbighesred]

Can someone answer this question that I asked earlier?  I think it got lost amongst the
traffic of posts.

How do we combat the late runner to the near post?

The players at the near post are blind to the incoming attacker, by the time he arrives the ball
is on it's way into the near post. The defenders are busy watching that incoming cross.

This seems to me, to be a bit of an achilles heel for zonal marking.

I think someone answered it earlier by pointing out that Torres wasn't 'blind' to the run - he just failed to get to the header first. At a guess, I'd say whoever is put on the near post has to be more alive to the near post corner, and it's essential that they take responsibility for attacking it. Torres is probably the best header we have after the CBs, who are needed more centrally (I think) so he needs to make sure it doesn't happen again, basically. Either that or we try someone else there - maybe Lucas? Though he lacks height he's got a phenomenal leap and has the defensive nous and awareness to be pro-active about getting the ball - as his own goal sadly showed.

[Blumbers]

I read somewhere that the 'best' system is a balance between zonal marking, man-to-man, and a split of the two; where the system used depended on the distance out and the angle of delivery.  Does seem to have some logic.

[Effes]

Can someone answer this question that I asked earlier?  I think it got lost amongst the
traffic of posts.

How do we combat the late runner to the near post?

The players at the near post are blind to the incoming attacker, by the time he arrives the ball
is on it's way into the near post. The defenders are busy watching that incoming cross.

This seems to me, to be a bit of an achilles heel for zonal marking.

I think someone answered it earlier by pointing out that Torres wasn't 'blind' to the run - he just failed to get to the header first. At a guess, I'd say whoever is put on the near post has to be more alive to the near post corner, and it's essential that they take responsibility for attacking it. Torres is probably the best header we have after the CBs, who are needed more centrally (I think) so he needs to make sure it doesn't happen again, basically. Either that or we try someone else there - maybe Lucas? Though he lacks height he's got a phenomenal leap and has the defensive nous and awareness to be pro-active about getting the ball - as his own goal sadly showed.

How about if someone makes a run to the near post like that, then someone follows him?

I know this might make space, but that's where your goalie comes in to help maybe if
the cross does clear the near post?

I do think Reina could be more willing to come for crosses.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

I think Torres needs to work harder at learning to defend defensive set pieces. Perhaps he's made no other mistakes, but he was at fault against Villa and I remember another high profile mistake when he didn't pick up Rooney's zone for a corner and we lost at home to a Tevez goal. That's two big mistakes he's made and considering the fact that he's excellent in the air he should be dominant when we're defending these attacks. However, the whole team needs to step up. People can criticise zonal marking all they like - and clearly we need to re-do some work on it - but I dread to think of how many goals we'd concede during a season if man-marking was fully implemented given the way the players are defending.

[lfcmaster]

does anyone else agree that the zonal marking system is not working aswell as when we first used it

we seem to be more prone to conceding goals or chances from set pieces

i would like us to go back to man marking as i believe our players carra and skrtel would be better at man marking

[McMagicman]

Zonal marking may be a great system, and it may be the best system for us, but if it means that you cant put a player on each post then iots absolutely CRIMINAL!!!!!

A player on the posts is footballing basics. You dont even have to be a good header of the ball to get a flick or a deflection on target, and if it heads towards our goal theres a good chance its going in, as there is nobody on the line.

I'm sick of time and time again watching Man Utd clear off the line when im begging for it to go in.
They seem to clear one off the line at least once every game, and its a fantastic tactic.

I say stick with Zonal but do it in a way where we can cover the posts too.

[hesbighesred]

Zonal marking may be a great system, and it may be the best system for us, but if it means that you cant put a player on each post then iots absolutely CRIMINAL!!!!!

A player on the posts is footballing basics. You dont even have to be a good header of the ball to get a flick or a deflection on target, and if it heads towards our goal theres a good chance its going in, as there is nobody on the line.

I'm sick of time and time again watching Man Utd clear off the line when im begging for it to go in.
They seem to clear one off the line at least once every game, and its a fantastic tactic.

I say stick with Zonal but do it in a way where we can cover the posts too.

I explained that earlier.

Putting men on the post makes you FAR more vulnerable to the second ball in - how often do you see us concede from a corner, cleared, then a second ball floated in? Almost never, and the reason is that not putting men on the posts allows us to move up very quickly as a team by making that sort of pass back in impossible without a player being offside. It also gives us two fewer players to a) win the header in the first place and b) break up the pitch if we get the ball under control.

How about if someone makes a run to the near post like that, then someone follows him?

I know this might make space, but that's where your goalie comes in to help maybe if
the cross does clear the near post?

I do think Reina could be more willing to come for crosses.

I don't know, but I'm inclined to agree on the last point. Pepe is the best keeper in the prem, no doubt about it for me, but he's not the best from crosses. He's fine from general set-pieces but I don't feel he attacks the ball quite enough from corners either.

Of course, on the flip side if he comes at the near post and misses, we are absolutely screwed, wheras if he comes in the middle of the goal or far post, there's much less chance of it dropping to an opponent for a nigh on certain goal.

[hassinator]

I'm a massive fan of Zoan Marking
And I'm so sick of people in the media constantly blaming the Zonal Marking system when we concede a goal. Its the easy one to blame things on really isn't it ?
Martin Tyler's Monkey and his old "space doesn't score goals" bullox.
Piss off Gray you idiot.
I'm a big fan of Hansen too and his anal views on MOTD, being an ex defender myself I tend to look at everything from a defenders point of view.
Here a good piece on Zonal for anyone who hasn't seen it before.
One more point that people shoudl point to them idiots on Sky - 15 of the 16 teams that reached the knockout stages of the 2004 Champions League used Zonal Marking

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4685580.stm

great link and apologies for coming to this thread late as i presumed it was a knee jerk against the villa game.

the obvious reason that its not working well for us is that we've had injuries, chopping, changing and new personnel in our back 4.

the end as far as i'm concerned as zonal working has clearly worked for us over a period of time.

obviously the best teams work specifically on any weakness it offers so perhaps some flexibility in how to play is necessary.

arsenal seemed to have us worked out at the end of last season but comments in the article about key quality is relevant here.

basically a perfectly delivered ball should result in a goal scoring opportunity as the attackers always have the advantage.

no matter how you play.

[hassinator]

I don't know, but I'm inclined to agree on the last point. Pepe is the best keeper in the prem, no doubt about it for me, but he's not the best from crosses. He's fine from general set-pieces but I don't feel he attacks the ball quite enough from corners either.

Of course, on the flip side if he comes at the near post and misses, we are absolutely screwed, wheras if he comes in the middle of the goal or far post, there's much less chance of it dropping to an opponent for a nigh on certain goal.

seb i must seem like a stalker but yet again you make the complex clear and i agree on all of it.  love your work.

[hesbighesred]

seb i must seem like a stalker but yet again you make the complex clear and i agree on all of it.  love your work.

Well you know, when hyper-perambulating the various permutations through my cogitation reducing the inherent complexity of any molecular - cell based life form in a collective, competitive enterprise into reductive stages for cogitation is one of my inherent post-postivist anti-desestablishment standpoints.

[hesbighesred]

Hass - that's spot on about quality of delivery too, I'm nigh on totally convinced that's where our own corner issues come from - it's quality of delivery. As you say, if the delivery is perfect the attackers will pretty much always have a great chance.

[Gnurglan]

I also think, that zonal marking is o.k., but it is clear that it doesn´t work in our matches.

And if something is wrong, you should try something else that will work. So I would try man-to-man marking for few games and then decide.

No, no, no.

We've been doing this for years with good results. If there was a time for a re-think, that time has past. At this point we should just focus on doing the things we're supposed to do in our current system.

[hassinator]

Hass - that's spot on about quality of delivery too, I'm nigh on totally convinced that's where our own corner issues come from - it's quality of delivery. As you say, if the delivery is perfect the attackers will pretty much always have a great chance.

one of the reasons i really wanted barry.  good delivery from set pieces and while i can see his limitations i thought his versatility made a 4-3-3 more possible for us as he can inherently fill in on any of the left sided positions if someone else vacates.  still i think we're on a bit of midfield adventure at the moment and i hope we can all get behind lucas so he can have a proper crack.

in terms of the thread villa are good at set pieces as we now clearly know.

[hassinator]

No, no, no.

We've been doing this for years with good results. If there was a time for a re-think, that time has past. At this point we should just focus on doing the things we're supposed to do in our current system.

agree 100%.  try harder.

[LIVER]

If it's not 'the system' but 'the players' then surely you need to do something that will suit them or change it around so that the least effective players for us are not in the most important areas of the zonal system?

[mooks]

Zonal marking is crap and all who disagree with me on here need there heads read 

some people like it, some don't, I fall into the Don't catagory doesn't make me a bad person or a Rafa hater.  I think people on here will defend the system just because we use it, if we didn't and went man for man, people who can't think for themselves would back the man for man system.

Right - and could you show some evidence that you're thinking for yourself rather than just "I don't like it"?

[fowler_is_god9]

For me it worked well in the past generally against anyone as teams had stopped using it and it was unusual.  I think it will still work against lazy teams and bad managers.

However any half intelligent manager will watch a liverpool game, see how all our defenders line up in the same place and note it down.  Then in training place players in the same place and work in training looking for weaknesses.  Obviously you can train against man to man in a similar way, however, it appears to me to be a lot easier to find weaknesses in zonal as it is more rigid.

[JP-65]

one of the reasons i really wanted barry.  good delivery from set pieces and while i can see his limitations i thought his versatility made a 4-3-3 more possible for us as he can inherently fill in on any of the left sided positions if someone else vacates.  still i think we're on a bit of midfield adventure at the moment and i hope we can all get behind lucas so he can have a proper crack.

in terms of the thread villa are good at set pieces as we now clearly know.

I've just taken a look at this thread, and as I was working my way through it I wanted to make this same point.

We are vulnerable when the opposing team has quality takers and headers of the ball, ala Villa, Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs come to mind, but not many more.

Ashley Young delivers a wicked ball, just compare to his trajectory to Gerrard's, and you can see why we don't score many at the other end.

I seem to remember Spearing delivering a few killers for the reserves awhile back, but he seems to have lost this ability in the last season.

[hassinator]

I've just taken a look at this thread, and as I was working my way through it I wanted to make this same point.

We are vulnerable when the opposing team has quality takers and headers of the ball, ala Villa, Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs come to mind, but not many more.

great minds think alike jp

[Effes]

We should be tested tomorrow - will be interesting to see how we fare.

[liverpooll]

We should put men on the posts.

Remember Tevez goal against us at anfield

As mentioned by someone in this thread, men on posts can make us more vulnerable

[Kennys from heaven]

I also think, that zonal marking is o.k., but it is clear that it doesn´t work in our matches.

And if something is wrong, you should try something else that will work. So I would try man-to-man marking for few games and then decide.

You're right. Losing two games all last season proves conclusively that Zonal marking don't work in our matches...

Edit: Of course we drew a shitload of games, but that's more down to the lack of taking chances than conceding goals.

Just thought I'd better get that in before fire and brimstone rained down on me...

[SickBoy.no]

We lost 8 points in total on set pieces last season. I know this is the wrong way to look at things, but if we look at the numbers black/white we did.
In both of the games we lost last season we conceeded one of the goals on a corner. However both of these goals came as own goals from Carra (Tottenham) and Alonso (Middlesborough). The only other time we lost points because of it was against Everton at Anfield where Cahill was allowed to stand unmarked to score the equaliser.

So not half bad is it? Even though we indirectly went out of the FA cup (corner gave Everton the right to rematch) and the CL (2 of Chelseas goals came on corners) we didn't do too badly on set pieces I would say.

It might have been mentioned before in the thread, but we conceeded 6 goals on set pieces in the league last season. 2 own goals, 1 direct shot on freekick and three crosses from corners/freekick.

[lionel_messias]

Please please please let a Premier League team sign a player called Alberto Zone,
because then we won't have to hear the likes the Paul "amoeba" Merson saying "A goal was niver scored by a Zone, now wot I mean."

[Slave]

Shocking again!

[bryanod]

Torres is a weakness at the first post zonally, he isn't aggressive enoug in the air.

 

[Effes]

First Goal for Bolton by Davies 32
Click Here for Video

Once we've caught our breath after that, we can assess their first goal.

Shocking that when the ball was headed back from the back post that there were
3 Bolton players queueing up unmarked.
Poor attempt by Insua also at the back post.

[eel]

well i suspect some teams are going to overload some "zones".. as we had some great success at first ... seems some teams have figured this out. It might be why we are leaking goals atm im not 100 % this is the reason tho.

[Uhoh AureliOs]

Our shortest player at the back post.

[SickBoy.no]

Players simply need to start doing their fucking job.

[STORMTROOPER]

the worrying thing was not that bolton scored from the corner, it was that 4 men were unmarked to score it - WTF

[BazC]

We lost 8 points in total on set pieces last season. I know this is the wrong way to look at things, but if we look at the numbers black/white we did.
In both of the games we lost last season we conceeded one of the goals on a corner. However both of these goals came as own goals from Carra (Tottenham) and Alonso (Middlesborough). The only other time we lost points because of it was against Everton at Anfield where Cahill was allowed to stand unmarked to score the equaliser.

So not half bad is it? Even though we indirectly went out of the FA cup (corner gave Everton the right to rematch) and the CL (2 of Chelseas goals came on corners) we didn't do too badly on set pieces I would say.

It might have been mentioned before in the thread, but we conceeded 6 goals on set pieces in the league last season. 2 own goals, 1 direct shot on freekick and three crosses from corners/freekick.

Where did you get that stat from?

[SickBoy.no]

Where did you get that stat from?

I went through our games from last season. Think I got them all, but you never know.

[b_joseph]

I went through our games from last season. Think I got them all, but you never know.

City away
Spurs away
Blackburn away
Newcastle away
Hull home...goal came on the back of poor defending from a set piece
Everton home
Portsmouth away
Boro away - Xabi own goal

[SickBoy.no]

I lost the Blackburn one, but the Hull one I didn't consider a set piece goal.

The point though is how few of the goals have come because of the zonal marking.

[mooks]

I lost the Blackburn one, but the Hull one I didn't consider a set piece goal.

The point though is how few of the goals have come because of the zonal marking.

I like your efforts but your last sentence seems to be implying that if we concede a goal from a set piece it is because of zonal marking.

Surely you're not implying that?

[SickBoy.no]

I like your efforts but your last sentence seems to be implying that if we concede a goal from a set piece it is because of zonal marking.

Surely you're not implying that?

I am saying the opposite actually. We have a good statistic from last season and the season before- and not many of the goals we have conceded can be blamed on the zonal marking.

I can remember maybe two. Cahill at Anfield and the one against Newcastle (where we imo just lost the header fair and square) .

[rocco]

Set-piece goals conceded:

Liverpool 10 77% of total conceded
Pompey 9 60%
Chelsea 6 75%
Arsenal 5 46%
City 4 50%
Man Utd 0 0%

Liverpool have conceded the most goals from set pieces in the prem, and have the highest % of goals from set pieces conceded


Our goals conceded this season ... were 10 from set pieces ?
Spurs 2
Villa 3
Bolton 2
West Ham 2
Hull 1
Chelsea 2
Sunderland 1

Do utd use zonal marking , not debating what system is better , just wondering.