Topic: Pivots and Point Guards

[redwood32]

Here's a illustration of how the triple post offence works.
http://www.coachawinningteam.com/basketball_play_triangle

I'm no basketball expert, but somehow I felt there are similarities to what Kuyt and Arbeloa have been doing on our right hand side...

I used to play basketball professionally. Triangles are obviously apart of football, but to compare the "triangle offense" in basketball to Arbeloa-Kuyt-Torres for us would be far-fetched. Basketball is a totally different ballgame because you can score on different angles, if your low post option is heavily guarded you can kick it out for a corner three. There are no such options in football. The only similarity is in spacing, which has been a fundamental in football forever. Triangles create space.

The best way to compare football and basketball would be to compare styles of play, fastbreak basketball would be counter-attacking football and half-court sets in basketball would be possession football in the oppositions half.

Xabi would be your half-court point guard. Reads the game well, can see options unfolding, a general of sorts, etc.. A fastbreak point guard always tries to make himself the first option after the rebound or inbound, sets a high pace by pushing the ball up through the middle with 2 options (hopefully) either side. Xabi taking the ball of our centre midfielders could be considered similar, but there is that lack of pace that sets it apart from fastbreak basketball.

I'm not sure how useful comparing the two sports would be. The games are very different and it's only the fundamentals of each sport that you can really compare. Need to form space, movement, etc.. The different dimensions of the playing areas, different scoring, etc., make the approaches hard to compare. Basketball at the top level can also be a lot more individual, with isolations working because of the lack of defenders and rules to stop clogging the basket area.

[BazC]

Nice one Daws, good post which I obviously agree with.

Can't believe that Sneijder's being linked away from Real Madrid for less cash than we're paying for Aquilani and we're not in for him. I haven't seen much of Aquilani before so don't know what he has over Sneijder- I'm guessing he's more a box-to-box player whereas Sneijder's not?

Any deal for Sneijder could have been done independent of the Alonso deal as well- as Atletico did with Torres and Garcia when they both went opposite ways.

I'll especially be a bit pissed off if he ends up at Aston Villa, but there's little chance of that happening I guess!

[hassinator]

daws - killer post and pretty much what i think.  i also think we will get silva in even if it means bundling riera and babel in the deal as he would be pretty much perfect for the role you suggest on the left plus he offers the versatility to work anywhere in the 3 of a 4-2-3-1.

manifest - on the money as usual.  sneijder would be perfect for us.  would rafa consider a cheeky bid now business is done with alonso i wonder?  i thought his body language at anfield and general attitude after the 4-1 was great - he clearly loved the atmosphere and i think he'd much rather come to us than aston fucking villa.

[BazC]

daws - killer post and pretty much what i think.  i also think we will get silva in even if it means bundling riera and babel in the deal as he would be pretty much perfect for the role you suggest on the left plus he offers the versatility to work anywhere in the 3 of a 4-2-3-1.

manifest - on the money as usual.  sneijder would be perfect for us.  would rafa consider a cheeky bid now business is done with alonso i wonder?  i thought his body language at anfield and general attitude after the 4-1 was great - he clearly loved the atmosphere and i think he'd much rather come to us than aston fucking villa.

4-0 

[hassinator]

4-0 

forgive the rantings of a rapidly collapsing mind

[royhendo]

Brilliant posts. Cheers Daws... and Redwood mate, this is a subject that intrigues me.

Who would you say is a good example of each type of point guard, and would you say there are comparable players in football?

Also, given packed defences in their own defensive third, would you say that narrows the gap between the two to any extent?

I think in general terms the "triangle offense" comparison is apt though, no? The front players being empowered to work creatively within a tactical framework?

[jason42]

Shamelessly stolen from my 'Moving On' thread

Just thought now that we have signed Aquilani that we will see a subtle change to our 4-2-3-1 formation. Given Rafa's comments about where he plays on the pitch I expect us to use a 4-1-1-3-1 formation....something like this,

-------------------------------Reina---------------------------------------

Johnson-------------Carra---------Agger----------------------Insua

------------------------------Mascherano-------------------------------

------------------------------Aquilani-----------------------------------

Kuyt-------------------------Gerrard---------------------------Riera

-------------------------------Torres-----------------------------------



What does everyone think about that?

[royhendo]

So Aquilani confirmed... it fits doesn't it?

Rafa the other night in Oslo talked about how he plays further forward than Mascherano and a bit more than Lucas but further back than Gerrard.

Said a lot with that comment, no?

[royhendo]

Hehey I didn't see you post Jason mate - looks like it. I wonder how much license Lucas will get.

[Livani]

'...path of least resistance...'


You've put that fantastically. An absolutely succinct line. Sums up Alonso (formerly Xabi) perfectly.

It's what we'll miss folks. We played with two DM's. One a destroyer; one a playmaker: allowed us to play 4-2-4 and strip the shit out of the opposition (if I may paraphrase Predator).

We've not got that now. Tactics will have to be adjusted accordingly. Damn shame as it was so finely tuned.

[hassinator]

yeah but we can't get worked out the way we did the mancs and madrid last season - always present a moving target and that's the silver lining.  they ran everything through ronaldo the way we used to with macmanaman.  xabi was our playmaker but now, if we get things right, we can rain down pain all over the park.  this will be a good thing.  dig the new breed.

[scatman]

would be interesting to see what license Lucas does get, seeing as the new man is out of action for a while recovering. Hopefully he can make his mark, pushing up and doing a box-to-box job.

[jason42]

Hehey I didn't see you post Jason mate - looks like it. I wonder how much license Lucas will get.

I assume that Lucas would just slot in for Aquilani in that position. He has a very good engine on him and gets up and down the park. If both fullbacks are pushing on he could sit and still leave us with 4 at the back (Carra, Agger, Masch and Lucas).

[killer-heels]

Been watching the game and it is a pre-season friendly, granted, but Mascherano doesnt exactly remain pretty disciplined in central midfield. He leaves his position alot, which is now a problem because we dont have Alonso, who normally remains deep.

With Aquilani and Lucas all more progressive, Mascherano is going to have to improve in that aspect.

[b_joseph]

Masch will be fine. When has he ever neglected his real job to go forward in a meaningful game? There is a reason why he is the skipper of his nation and one of the most sought after defensive mids on the planet.

[Stussy]

So did Michael Jordan play in this position?

[b_joseph]

So did Michael Jordan play in this position?

No, he was a shooting guard.

[Fat Scouser]

Doesn't worry me Hendo lad.... let's fucking get them!

[kaz1983]

So did Michael Jordan play in this position?

No, Magic Johnson is considered the best ever point guard to ever play the game.

[thechulloran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTead3GXycE

triangle offense executed by the Lakers

[Yorkykopite]

Superb OP Roy - and an all-round stimulating thread. You've taken what was in danger of becoming an overused thought - 'In losing Alonso Rafa won't replace like with like - and really thought through what this might mean. 

Someone in the thread said that Rafa is now in a shitty situation because he has neither Alonso nor Barry in his squad. I don't see it like that. It's more accurate to look beyond personnel and say that Rafa - after a season when he was forced to go backwards and rely on Xabi - now has the chance to enforce the system he was moving towards this time last year before Juventus scuppered his plans by not coming up with the readies. That system has probably been described in parts of this thread. It involves playing in a more direct style with the 'point guard' higher up the pitch. A bit like Man Utd over the last three seasons in fact. The only difference from this time last year is that we've got Aquilani to replace Alonso rather than Barry.

What has to improve to make this system viable?

1. The pace with which things happen at the back. If we do the Liverpool dawdle in defence then the forwards will spend a good deal of this coming season scrambling for second balls. That's a great leveller, especially in super-competitive England, and we'll soon be wondering why zillions of pounds worth of talent look no more enterprising than Bolton and Blackburn. Johnson will possibly be a marginal improvement on Arbeloa (who had an excellent season last year) and Insua will hopefully progress again. But we shall need to see a massive improvement in Carragher's game now that Alonso isn't there to do some of the basic centre back stuff for him.

2. Mascherano will have to take more responsibility for dictating play and cutting out the silly errors that still litter his passing game.  At his best - running with the ball quickly and chasing back 30 yards to hunt someone down - he's awesome. But at times he looks surprisingly un-Argentinian when he's trying to bring other players into the game. It's a huge season for Masch. He can't afford two below-par seasons on the trot, especially if he fancies himself as the kind of player Barcelona would want in their team.

3. Dirk Kuyt. If we are to play higher up the pitch we'll need Dirk to be more aggressive on the ball. Keeping possession in forward areas is difficult enough without having players who can't eliminate opponents by a dribble, an incisive forward pass, a pacy outflanking run. If we go through a sticky patch like last season I'd hope that Rafa would be more flexible and try something else on the right - maybe Gerrard. He's good there. Who knows, we might even get to see a bit of Pacheco as part of that equation.

Now there's a player who could be 'point guard'......

[socrates the sophist]

yeah but we can't get worked out the way we did the mancs and madrid last season - always present a moving target and that's the silver lining.  they ran everything through ronaldo the way we used to with macmanaman.  xabi was our playmaker but now, if we get things right, we can rain down pain all over the park.  this will be a good thing.  dig the new breed.

I have a feeling that "raining own pain all over the park" will backfire and gerrard (eventually) will drop deeper to become a creator. I just can't see any of the players taking a small part of Xabi's role and the result will be a scattered unorganized team on the offensive part. I have feeling this change will be catastrophic for Rafa, hope I am wrong.

[b_joseph]

Yorky

1) Carra is set in his ways now. It will be very very hard for him to suddenly become this ball playing defender to carry the play 20-30 yards or whatever. That is why Agger being healthy is monumentally crucial to our success without Alonso.
The team without Agger last year was fine because it had Alonso...the team without Alonso at times in the past has been fine because of Agger. Not having either of them would not be an ideal situation.

2) Agree there but I never understood why so many considered his year below par. His presence was vital in every one of our big performances last season and our worst performance was the game that he was suspended for ( Chelsea CL ). His passing wasnt great but it never has been to be honest. So it would be very hard to take someone who hasnt really got that quality in his locker and suddenly expect it from him now.

3) Rafa loves Dirk, Dirk loves Rafa....The love affair will be long lasting.
Good call on Pacheco though, I found it nice to see him play a couple games where he was a more traditional CM player. Interesting that he kinda looked better there than he did in the advanced role. He played as a CM for a the reserves a few times last year also so maybe thats where they see him in the future.

Many people have said it but we cant sleep on Lucas. Rafa never ever singles anyone out for praise and the fact that he did for Lucas last week was very telling for me. For better or for worse ( thats for you Xabi ), Lucas will be our guy for a couple months and I think we'll be happy with it.
The only thing I am concerned about is that people are going to say ''Oh well Xabi did this and Xabi did that''. Which wont benefit anyone especially Lucas who will need the support for everyone.

[Yorkykopite]

BJ - fair observation on Mascherano and the big games. 

On Carragher I'd have to agree as well. I was setting a clumsy trap really. The real answer is, of course, Agger-Skrtel.

And on Lucas I agree 100 per cent. Liverpool fans have been coming round to him for a few months now. What he lacked at times last season was 1.Beef 2. Cockiness. But he's stronger now and I think we can all see the glorious signs of self-belief.  The rest of the Premier League is in for a shock.

[royhendo]

Maybe a good example of your concerns about Barry tonight v Holland Yorky eh?

[hassinator]

BJ - fair observation on Mascherano and the big games. 

On Carragher I'd have to agree as well. I was setting a clumsy trap really. The real answer is, of course, Agger-Skrtel.

And on Lucas I agree 100 per cent. Liverpool fans have been coming round to him for a few months now. What he lacked at times last season was 1.Beef 2. Cockiness. But he's stronger now and I think we can all see the glorious signs of self-belief.  The rest of the Premier League is in for a shock.

agree with all of this.  he's beefed up and seems to be stepping up to the plate.  its like a pack of apes that needs a new leader.  without going all desmond morris he's growing into his role and xabi going should ultimately be the making of him.

EDIT: leader is probably going too far when stevie g and carra are still in the team but still he seems to feel part of the team now rather than that tentative vibe we saw a lot of last year

[socrates the sophist]

I was watching Sneider with Holland, he looks like he can play the more advanced role (between masch and stevie) perfectly. I'm wondering why we did not go for him.

[hassinator]

I was watching Sneider with Holland, he looks like he can play the more advanced role (between masch and stevie) perfectly. I'm wondering why we did not go for him.

just posted the same thing in the transfer thread.  he is mustard and, in my humble opinion, would be fucking perfect for us.

[Yorkykopite]

Maybe a good example of your concerns about Barry tonight v Holland Yorky eh?

Didn't see the match mate. Was he slowing the game down as usual?

[Hank Scorpio]

I was watching Sneider with Holland, he looks like he can play the more advanced role (between masch and stevie) perfectly. I'm wondering why we did not go for him.

just posted the same thing in the transfer thread.  he is mustard and, in my humble opinion, would be fucking perfect for us.

I'm sure the manager would have got him thrown in with the Alonso deal if he really wanted him.  I mean Real were open to a player swap deal and Benitez could have got a good price.

[royhendo]

Didn't see the match mate. Was he slowing the game down as usual?

24 seconds in mate - one of the issues you highlighted last season. He receives the ball from Ferdinand with his back to play, and plays a blind ball to Terry as he's closed down, with Robben sneaking into his blind spot.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/P7pI2P8XyqY&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/P7pI2P8XyqY&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

[BazC]

Gerrard-esque that was.

[hassinator]

Didn't see the match mate. Was he slowing the game down as usual?

on last nights evidence you were absolutely right and i'm an idiot - he looked rubbish.

to be fair he can't be that bad every week.  poor old Manchester City

[hassinator]

I'm sure the manager would have got him thrown in with the Alonso deal if he really wanted him.  I mean Real were open to a player swap deal and Benitez could have got a good price.

hey hank i would have though that rafa wanted to keep the alonso pitch as clear as possible so there couldn't be any price based shenanigans indeed the big man was quoted as not understanding how players for a team that we'd beaten 4-0 at anfield could be valued at more than their transfer target at anfield.

i think now that the clock is ticking down and the wage bill/balance sheet is starting to look uncomfortable they will have to move a lot of people very quickly.   if you were their agent what would you do?  every day the pressure goes up.  huntelaar moves for less than darren 'fucking' bent so what price robben, sneijder and/or van nistlecheat?

[socrates the sophist]

Hassinator, your talking about prices made me realise that may be its wesley's wages. There is no other explanation. He is more versatile that Wesley, is fit and available. He also has a very good workrate. As well as a great set peice taker. He is just a better version of Aquilani, I cant' understand why we didn't go for him.

[Yorkykopite]

on last nights evidence you were absolutely right and i'm an idiot - he looked rubbish.

to be fair he can't be that bad every week.  poor old Manchester City

Well, no, to be fair you'd have to assess Barry's worth over more than one match. I'm sure he's better than the clip that Roy posted. Having said that Roy's clip contained the thing I distrusted most about Barry - tentative under pressure. His first instinct is to let someone else sort the problem out. Xabi would never have made that pass back to a defender standing so close to him, blind or not.

[hassinator]

Well, no, to be fair you'd have to assess Barry's worth over more than one match. I'm sure he's better than the clip that Roy posted. Having said that Roy's clip contained the thing I distrusted most about Barry - tentative under pressure. His first instinct is to let someone else sort the problem out. Xabi would never have made that pass back to a defender standing so close to him, blind or not.

well with aquilani we're clearly aiming higher than what barry could bring.  my enthusiasm was for his utility as a defender with insua bombing forward or stevie g pushing up from the right of midfield.  still absolutely not the end of the world.  he took money over glory and that's not we want at anfield.

socrates - wages is the thing that will put most clubs off paying top whack for sneijder and also why as the end of the window looms there will be some real bargains to be had at madrid.  there is absolutely no reason we can't go back when the price is right - no matter what his wages the buying club can seek a discount over the fee as madrid simply have to get rid of a lot of their now very bloated squad.

[BazC]

So... Gerrard drops deeper more readily, Lucas allowed to get forward a bit more, Mascherano anchoring midfield and Yossi interchanging with the 2 attacking midfielders as well.

Worked brilliantly and didn't detract from Gerrard's attacking side at all- hell, he even set up 2 goals. That sort of freedom between Gerrard, Lucas and Yossi was something special. The 3rd goal was class.

No need to say anything about Johnson's role in the side. The lad's class. Goal and an assist as well as a clearance off the goal line. And he's a fullback.

Fluid passing football with a midfield trio of Mascherano, Lucas and Gerrard. Already showing itself. Hopefully we carry this on all the way to Chelsea and win the games in between.

[b_joseph]

It was perfect from a balance perspective. Thats why I dont want Gerrard to drop into the permanent CM position because unlike Lucas, he doesnt have the balance to get forward and to stay back.
He'll catch himself between 2 trains of thought and it often leads to him doing more of one and less of the other. But in the other areaw, he just has an out and out free role, he has that option to drop off when need be and it probably suits him that way.

I have to give Lucas extra credit there because not many players know when to go beyond the front men and when just to stay back behind them but he has always seemed to have that part of his game in hand from the moment he got here.
Dare I say, he has a little bit of Lampard in him. Lampard has a great feel for that part of the game also.

[hassinator]

Hassinator, your talking about prices made me realise that may be its wesley's wages. There is no other explanation. He is more versatile that Wesley, is fit and available. He also has a very good workrate. As well as a great set peice taker. He is just a better version of Aquilani, I cant' understand why we didn't go for him.

he's apparently only £13m now.  what say we sell babel and riera so we can bring him in?