Author Topic: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares  (Read 221407 times)

Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #560 on: April 13, 2009, 07:56:18 PM »
It seems significant that Gillett was here last week and is flying back next week, no? He wouldn't just be coming to see the matches because he enjoys football, that's for sure, so either he's meeting people or he's trying to win the pr battle against Hicks.

Was he actually at the match? It's not like us to lose when he attends is it?  :P
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Offline riise6

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #561 on: April 13, 2009, 09:04:04 PM »
HL i long for the day we get to toast them cu nts gone for ever where you wanna celebrate it?
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #562 on: April 13, 2009, 09:21:57 PM »
Was he actually at the match? It's not like us to lose when he attends is it?  :P

He was definitely in the country, so presumably he attended the game. I have also read somewhere that he will be at the game tomorrow.
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Online Zeb

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #563 on: April 14, 2009, 06:22:21 AM »
yes, the more money he gets from the sale the more chance there is he will pay his part of our loan off and the club can be sold.

 I asked earlier in the thread whether the loan was a joint thing or not and was told it was a joint loan and not a case of each paying off their 'half'?
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Offline No666

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #564 on: April 14, 2009, 08:12:50 AM »
So how would that work? Like a mortgage where you're jointly liable, so if Hicks defaulted they could go after Gillett, and vice versa? *Suppresses laughter*

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #565 on: April 14, 2009, 09:11:19 AM »
So how would that work? Like a mortgage where you're jointly liable, so if Hicks defaulted they could go after Gillett, and vice versa? *Suppresses laughter*

No idea...

Quote
Quote from: Zeb on March 26, 2009, 10:13:19 PM

    Was the estimate a 30% reduction in the costs of the stadium?

    Just running through the scenarios, what happens if Hicks pays his half of the loan back and Gillette doesn't?

Quote
Quote from : TSC on: March 26, 2009, 10:17:49 PM

It's one loan against the club assets.  In the unlikely event of the bank calling it in then it would need to be paid in full.  Won't happen anyway.

So I'll ask again I guess :D

If one of them pays of their half and the other doesn't, what happens?
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Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #566 on: April 14, 2009, 09:15:19 AM »
APRIL 14, 2009

Creditors Find Hicks Sports Group in Default

 By MATTHEW FUTTERMAN

Creditors to Texas financier Tom Hicks's Hicks Sports Group have declared the company in default, a measure that could eventually dislodge the Texas Rangers baseball club and Dallas Stars hockey franchise from his control.

The default notice is the strongest sign yet of the economic perils awaiting the country's professional sports leagues, where owners have spent lavishly on player salaries. Many owners' personal fortunes are also on the wane, creating uncomfortable standoffs between the owners and lenders.

In Mr. Hicks's case, a group of 40 financial institutions and other investors hold $525 million in debt. Galatioto Sports Partners, a New York sports-financing group, holds the largest position, having lent nearly $100 million to Hicks Sports Group.

Mr. Hicks missed a $10 million quarterly interest payment on March 31, triggering the default notice. The teams are unable to fund both their operating expenses and debt service, and Mr. Hicks has declined to continue making up the difference out of his own pocket, according to a person familiar with the matter.
[tom hicks and creditors and default] Associated Press

Tom Hicks, right, pictured with Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones last April, missed a $10 million quarterly interest payment March 31.

That has angered some of the lenders -- a collection of large banks and smaller investment funds -- for whom the default notice begins a process that could put the banks in control of the teams. That won't happen for at least 180 days, however, as lenders have agreed to National Hockey League provisions that prevent immediate foreclosure. Major League Baseball's rules for such situations are more fluid, though if Hicks Sports Group can't satisfy lenders, the lenders can eventually force an MLB-sanctioned sale of the Rangers.

Mr. Hicks can fix the situation, and remain in control of the teams, by paying off his current debt or by reaching a new deal with his lenders, which he is trying to do.

A spokesman for NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman declined to comment. Bob DuPuy, chief operating officer of Major League Baseball, also declined to comment.

Relations between the Hicks Sports Group lenders and the NHL have grown increasingly testy of late, with the NHL threatening to do all it could to block a forced sale of the Stars, according to people involved in the matter.

In the meantime, Mr. Hicks is trying to fashion a deal of his own, by selling a minority stake in the Rangers and Stars. He said he plans to fund operational losses of the teams but wants the banks to cover interest payments.

"I'm confident that I'll be able to reach agreement with 51% of the lenders because I will be able to fund all the cash needs of the two teams during the period that I'm bringing in new partners, which will help us to drastically reduce if not eliminate HSG's debt," Mr. Hicks said in an interview. "These are great sports franchises and they're valuable assets and I want to make sure I have ample time to identify appropriate partners to invest at a fair value."

Mr. Hicks has been one of the most high-profile figures in professional sports, having purchased the Rangers in 1998 from a group of owners that included former President George W. Bush. Under Mr. Hicks's ownership, the Rangers signed shortstop Alex Rodriguez to a 10-year, $250 million contract. This year the Rangers' payroll is about $68 million, and is in the bottom third of MLB. The Stars, meanwhile, became the most successful of the NHL's franchises in the South, winning the Stanley Cup in 1999.

In 2004, Mr. Hicks stepped down as chairman of Hicks Muse Tate & Furst Inc., the private-equity firm that he co-founded.

Today Mr. Hicks operates Hicks Equity Partners, a private-equity arm of his investment firm. He is currently trying to close a $3.2 billion deal announced last June in which a Hicks investment vehicle would acquire a majority interest in plastic-container company Graham Packaging Holdings from the Blackstone Group.

Separately, Mr. Hicks has a $400 million loan from the Royal Bank of Scotland due in July, used to fund his purchase of the Liverpool soccer team in the English Premier League. Mr. Hicks splits ownership of the team with Colorado businessman George Gillet. To raise cash, Mr. Gillet is also moving ahead with a sale of his controlling stake in the NHL's Montreal Canadiens.

The trouble for Hicks Sports Group has been brewing for months, as the poor economy has dried up interest in sponsorships and ticket sales. Late last month, just days before the payment was due, Mr. Hicks informed the lenders he wouldn't make the payment. On April 6, the lenders found Hicks Sports Group in default.
—Peter Lattman contributed to this article.

Write to Matthew Futterman at matthew.futterman@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123967866588416173.html
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 09:21:05 AM by HarryLabrador »
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Offline No666

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #567 on: April 14, 2009, 09:20:40 AM »
So he can't/won't find $10 million? Should be peanuts to him. And his only rescue plan seems to hinge on getting in someone who wants to be a minority investor in two failing teams, alongside one of the most difficult partners in sport ownership. I spot a flaw, Tom.

Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #568 on: April 14, 2009, 09:22:46 AM »
So he can't/won't find $10 million? Should be peanuts to him. And his only rescue plan seems to hinge on getting in someone who wants to be a minority investor in two failing teams, alongside one of the most difficult partners in sport ownership. I spot a flaw, Tom.

The other flaw is the Graham Packaging deal with Blackstones. I believe he is stretching the facts a tad too far there.
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Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #569 on: April 14, 2009, 09:26:32 AM »
So he can't/won't find $10 million? Should be peanuts to him. And his only rescue plan seems to hinge on getting in someone who wants to be a minority investor in two failing teams, alongside one of the most difficult partners in sport ownership. I spot a flaw, Tom.
I find it fascinating watching rats when backed into a corner.  It is funny how hicks believes how good his investment in the stars/rangers is, its so good he wont dip into his own money to pay $10 mill of debt that he owes.  I think Mr Hicks knows this investment is doomed and is attempting to rescue it by pressuring the banks, any way that does not involve his own money. 
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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #570 on: April 14, 2009, 09:28:44 AM »
I cannot see how Hicks in particular can stay at the helm of our club, he sounds like hes on the bones of his arse.
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Offline Met

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #571 on: April 14, 2009, 10:07:23 AM »
I cannot see how Hicks in particular can stay at the helm of our club, he sounds like hes on the bones of his arse.

Me neither, but I'll bet pretty much anything he'll hang on by his fingernails for as long as possible.

Just imagine if he had sold to DIC last year. Big (undeserved) profit, no whoring himself around the world... Anyone thinks he regrets fucking off DIC?
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Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #572 on: April 14, 2009, 10:22:22 AM »
Me neither, but I'll bet pretty much anything he'll hang on by his fingernails for as long as possible.

Just imagine if he had sold to DIC last year. Big (undeserved) profit, no whoring himself around the world... Anyone thinks he regrets fucking off DIC?
Its like he is in a game of deal or no deal.  He did not make the right deal at the right time, now the banker will be laughing. 
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Offline incredibleL4ever

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #573 on: April 14, 2009, 10:22:44 AM »
How can Hicks claim the Rangers and Stars are "valuable assets" if they are continually loss making!!  In the present financial climate it is all about earnings.  If you are not making money, nobody will invest.  He is starting to sound like a second-hand car sales man.

Offline No666

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #574 on: April 14, 2009, 10:25:09 AM »
I particularly like the irony of his strategy - he wants other people to invest in teams he won't invest in himself.

Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #575 on: April 14, 2009, 10:34:56 AM »
I particularly like the irony of his strategy - he wants other people to invest in teams he won't invest in himself.

That's the nature of the beast. The means whereby he has acquired his 'assets' have all been other people's money. Either from numerous banks or from private investors.
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Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #576 on: April 14, 2009, 11:04:11 AM »
I particularly like the irony of his strategy - he wants other people to invest in teams he won't invest in himself.
haha nail on the head.  Anyone who invests with tom hicks is either insane or is called brewster
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #577 on: April 14, 2009, 11:38:09 AM »
Think its time this forum banned all talk about hicks and co, Plus all speculation about a takeover.
Everyones going round in circles, and its all been said ten times over anyway. Kind of getting boring.
R at least wait while July or until anything actually happens.


Offline Met

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #578 on: April 14, 2009, 11:40:52 AM »
Think its time this forum banned all talk about hicks and co, Plus all speculation about a takeover.
Everyones going round in circles, and its all been said ten times over anyway. Kind of getting boring.
R at least wait while July or until anything actually happens.

Honestly, who are you to tell people what to discuss and not to discuss? If you think this is boring, stay out of this thread but please don't tell others what to do...

I regularly check this thread and others for updates on not just the takeover, but how Hicks and Gillett are struggling to find cash.
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #579 on: April 14, 2009, 11:47:01 AM »
Someone who's thinking with common sense. When it happens it will be big news,we can debate/celabrate  till the cows come home till then whats the point. How many people on here actually know whats happening, no guess work.
 
Been coming on here and reading this for nearly 2yrs even joining in but its getting a bit samey, you know what i mean.

Whats happening on the pitch is more important at the moment.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 11:55:01 AM by reddwarf12003 »

Offline riise6

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #580 on: April 14, 2009, 11:52:32 AM »
Think its time this forum banned all talk about hicks and co, Plus all speculation about a takeover.
Everyones going round in circles, and its all been said ten times over anyway. Kind of getting boring.
R at least wait while July or until anything actually happens.



Dont let the door hit you on the way out! :wanker
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #581 on: April 14, 2009, 11:56:00 AM »
Someone who's thinking with common sense. When it happens it will be big news,we can debate it till the cows come home till then whats the point. How many people on here actually know whats happening, no guess work.

Whats happening on the pitch is more important at the moment.

That is a perfectly valid opinion, but one that you should not post in this thread. Why you do not just stick to the on pitch threads I really don't know. ???
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #582 on: April 14, 2009, 11:56:50 AM »
touchy, it's not a personally attack. It a fact.

Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #583 on: April 14, 2009, 11:57:04 AM »
Think its time this forum banned all talk about hicks and co, Plus all speculation about a takeover.
Everyones going round in circles, and its all been said ten times over anyway. Kind of getting boring.
R at least wait while July or until anything actually happens.


Fuk up.  getting boring?  who said this was supposed to be enticing and interesting.  These are bad times off the pitch and some of us prefer to talk about it and look at options as they unfold. 

I am very sorry this thread does not entertain you.  I cannot wait till the day these threads are closed but it will be when the owners go, not when you click your fingers.   
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #584 on: April 14, 2009, 11:59:33 AM »
It's not the newspaper articals there informative, its the circles people go in after each artical.

Offline Something Else

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #585 on: April 14, 2009, 11:59:41 AM »
Fuk up.  getting boring?  who said this was supposed to be enticing and interesting.  These are bad times off the pitch and some of us prefer to talk about it and look at options as they unfold. 
 

how many of these options are, viable, realistic.....

its all speculation on speculation with you all winding up eachother into a panic at every article it seems

Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #586 on: April 14, 2009, 12:03:50 PM »
how many of these options are, viable, realistic.....

its all speculation on speculation with you all winding up eachother into a panic at every article it seems
Currently Hicks and Gillette's financial problems are being discussed.  The problems are viable and realistic.  I don't understand why you continue to post here only to complain about the thread.

When i find a thread I'm not interested in i don't post in it? 
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Offline electricghost

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #587 on: April 14, 2009, 12:03:56 PM »
you all winding up eachother into a panic at every article it seems

You must be reading a different thread to the one I read ???
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #588 on: April 14, 2009, 12:05:10 PM »
Fuk up.  getting boring?  who said this was supposed to be enticing and interesting.  These are bad times off the pitch and some of us prefer to talk about it and look at options as they unfold. 

I am very sorry this thread does not entertain you.  I cannot wait till the day these threads are closed but it will be when the owners go, not when you click your fingers.  
Just how long can you keep contributing to threads about the same subject. How much has changed actually.

Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #589 on: April 14, 2009, 12:05:46 PM »
You must be reading a different thread to the one I read ???
I think he is just pissed off that he cannot defend hicks finances of late, would explain the sabbatical he has taken from this thread only to return and gripe about people still posting in it.
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Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #590 on: April 14, 2009, 12:06:42 PM »
Just how long can you keep contributing to threads about the same subject. How much has changed actually.
The fact that you have to ask what has changed tells me your dont really read the thread much. 
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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #591 on: April 14, 2009, 12:11:24 PM »
Currently Hicks and Gillette's financial problems are being discussed.  The problems are viable and realistic.  I don't understand why you continue to post here only to complain about the thread.

When i find a thread I'm not interested in i don't post in it? 

i will explain again, i read the things read as i await for info like you all
You must be reading a different thread to the one I read ???

sorry i should have explained it better

You are all speculating on speculation so the odds on, currently, any of it being accurate is very small.

We do not know the reasons behind the decisions the current owners are making, for every arguement or comment it is as easy to back the other side.

Say the rafa contract

1 it was done to secure the man to the club which makes the club a better buy for someone else

2 it was done to secure the man to the club which might make selling the club more difficult as new owners would want to make the decisions themselves

from the rafa side

1 he signed as he knew the future was secure and stability was there as new owners were coming in

2 he signed as he knew the future was secure and stability was there as he would be working for the same owners.


Now we all know where certain posters will edge their bets, however they are speculating as sadly, most of the posts in there, are from those who dont know the ins and outs.


Now take the GG sale of the canadians

1 it is because he needs the money to plow into us

2 it is because in these financial times it makes sense to sell something if you are going to make good money on it, you make a profit, the risk is gone.

Now again many posters who post in here, and dont know the true reasons will speculate that its the 1st, then they will speculate on what that means for us, then how it affects hicks position, and then some even how it will affect Rafa's position.

So in that case you are speculating on speculation from speculation from speculation about an article....... you should all try particle physics, you would be brilliant.

I think he is just pissed off that he cannot defend hicks finances of late, would explain the sabbatical he has taken from this thread only to return and gripe about people still posting in it.

oh please, when have I defended Hicks.

My sabbatical from the thread? I have been viewing it daily.

As for the Hicks issue, what I have said all along, as these guys are not broke, or I dont believe they are broke the way some make out.

Surely they have a decent amount of personal wealth that if they were to choose to do so, they could pump this money in to save an asset. Their decision is to not do so.

Therefore, I can only presume (and this was speculation on speculation, but it was always to ask a question in order to try to understand) that they were not going to.

Now that makes me wonder, as if LFC is to be the goldmine so many on here believe once this crunch is over and a stadium is built then if they are in danger of losing the club, why dont they put some personal money in securing the club and allowing them to reap the benefit in years to come?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 12:16:20 PM by Something Else »

Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #592 on: April 14, 2009, 12:11:32 PM »
Currently Hicks and Gillette's financial problems are being discussed.  The problems are viable and realistic.  I don't understand why you continue to post here only to complain about the thread.

When i find a thread I'm not interested in i don't post in it? 
There not being discussed, someone posts a news artical, which as i've said r informative, this then generates 1 or 2 pages of more speculation between members til tonight when another news story  appears state side and it starts again. I do'nt post, its the fact that you have to go the posts to find the articals which i find hard work.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 12:15:57 PM by reddwarf12003 »

Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #593 on: April 14, 2009, 12:14:04 PM »
There not being discussed, someone posts a news artical, which as i've said r informative, this then generates 1 or 2 pages of more speculation between members til tonight when another news story  appears state side and it starts again.
Like it has been suggested, why dont you find another thread since you dont like this one
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Offline fry

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #594 on: April 14, 2009, 12:17:37 PM »
i will explain again, i read the things read as i await for info like you all
sorry i should have explained it better

You are all speculating on speculation so the odds on, currently, any of it being accurate is very small.

We do not know the reasons behind the decisions the current owners are making, for every arguement or comment it is as easy to back the other side.

Say the rafa contract

1 it was done to secure the man to the club which makes the club a better buy for someone else

2 it was done to secure the man to the club which might make selling the club more difficult as new owners would want to make the decisions themselves

from the rafa side

1 he signed as he knew the future was secure and stability was there as new owners were coming in

2 he signed as he knew the future was secure and stability was there as he would be working for the same owners.


Now we all know where certain posters will edge their bets, however they are speculating as sadly, most of the posts in there, are from those who dont know the ins and outs.


Now take the GG sale of the canadians

1 it is because he needs the money to plow into us

2 it is because in these financial times it makes sense to sell something if you are going to make good money on it, you make a profit, the risk is gone.

Now again many posters who post in here, and dont know the true reasons will speculate that its the 1st, then they will speculate on what that means for us, then how it affects hicks position, and then some even how it will affect Rafa's position.

So in that case you are speculating on speculation from speculation from speculation about an article....... you should all try particle physics, you would be brilliant.

oh please, when have I defended Hicks.

My sabbatical from the thread? I have been viewing it daily.

As for the Hicks issue, what I have said all along, as these guys are not broke, or I dont believe they are broke the way some make out.

Surely they have a decent amount of personal wealth that if they were to choose to do so, they could pump this money in to save an asset. Their decision is to not do so.

Therefore, I can only presume (and this was speculation on speculation, but it was always to ask a question in order to try to understand) that they were not going to.

Now that makes me wonder, as if LFC is to be the goldmine so many on here believe once this crunch is over and a stadium is built then if they are in danger of losing the club, why dont they put some personal money in securing the club and allowing them to reap the benefit in years to come?
Nice Sheldon impersonation.
Disclaimer: The above post may not be based on facts even if stated as fact.

Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #595 on: April 14, 2009, 12:18:55 PM »
Like it has been suggested, why dont you find another thread since you dont like this one
I don't mind reading the news paper articals.. These at least may have some substance but the rest is just waffle. if you want to be touchy about things.
Its not just this thread its all the stuff about these two and the possible take over how many times r we going to hear the same old things.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 12:20:50 PM by reddwarf12003 »

Offline Something Else

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #596 on: April 14, 2009, 12:20:03 PM »
Nice Sheldon impersonation.

there was me hoping my attempt at making a discussion would bring out a decent reply from you, rather than a pathetic quip, no wonder this threads gone to shit

Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #597 on: April 14, 2009, 12:26:18 PM »
Some of you appear to suffer from war weariness and hence exhaustion from this prolonged battle with our owners. No one here has a magic wand to roll back the years to 2005/2006 before H&G. In the years the Americans have been here, you must admit a lot has happened, a great deal indeed which has all practically been thrown into the public domain, so to say nothing has happened in the last 2 years is frankly wrong. Furthermore, it is also advisable to read and take note of the title of the thread before you decide to attack it. Here it is again for the myopic reader: "Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares".

Now, please take a sabbatical, gardening leave, call it what you will, and leave the 'speculating' to the rest of us.
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #598 on: April 14, 2009, 12:30:40 PM »
R can we have a thread for news paper articles only for those of us who just want to read the latest without trolling through 2 pages of emotionally filled C***

You Know like media watch on the main site but with all the nasty stuff about them two included.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 12:32:14 PM by reddwarf12003 »

Offline Something Else

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Re: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares
« Reply #599 on: April 14, 2009, 12:30:58 PM »
Some of you appear to suffer from war weariness and hence exhaustion from this prolonged battle with our owners. No one here has a magic wand to roll back the years to 2005/2006 before H&G. In the years the Americans have been here, you must admit a lot has happened, a great deal indeed which has all practically been thrown into the public domain, so to say nothing has happened in the last 2 years is frankly wrong. Furthermore, it is also advisable to read and take note of the title of the thread before you decide to attack it. Here it is again for the myopic reader: "Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares".

Now, please take a sabbatical, gardening leave, call it what you will, and leave the 'speculating' to the rest of us.

i think you are going a bit far there with your comment about "to say nothing has happened in the last two years if frankly wrong" as I am yet to see anyone say that