Topic: Liverpool owner Hicks selling Texas Rangers shares

[Pollywood]

Evening Polly, so hows the porn star of wigan then.

Maj, its ok, its my sis lol

He knows bro its alright I introduced myself

[redprodigal]

They might have meant Friday US time so it only  about 11.50am ish over therein dallas so we've still got 12hrs left.

Hope you're right mate but

[4pool]

What the fuck? Surely the loan is 350 million and the guarantees, no matter how much they're worth, are just guarantees, the loan is still 350 million. You don't deduct guarantees from a loan to get the loans true value, or am I going fucking crazy???

180 of wich is in guarantees, no?


So far so good.

Of that 180 mil some of that was cash or personal loans to lower the total of 350 mil.

What the article doesn't do is break down the 90 mil it claims each had to come up with. Some of the guarantees is against assets but not all.

So the loan total was 350 mil, but the actual amount that the interest is charged against is less than 350mil.

Dear 4pool:

Deary me. And here I backed you up so you could have first go at Amanda Staveley and this is the thanks I get.

[Regi]

Surely if you get a £350m loan, you pay interest on £350m...end of story.
The guarantees are completely irrelevant unless they default.
Neither of them came up with fuck all, despite you repeating that they had to come up with something. They produced nada, zero.

Why are you making the guarantees out to be a big deal?
They mean fuck all

[redprodigal]

180 of wich is in guarantees, no?


So far so good.

Of that 180 mil some of that was cash or personal loans to lower the total of 350 mil.

What the article doesn't do is break down the 90 mil it claims each had to come up with. Some of the guarantees is against assets but not all.

So the loan total was 350 mil, but the actual amount that the interest is charged against is less than 350mil.





Deary me. And here I backed you up so you could have first go at Amanda Staveley and this is the thanks I get.

Jesus, where do you get that from?
Guarantees do not lower the interest of a loan, they are a guarantee in the case of the owner of the loan not being able to pay the loan off. The interest is paid on the original loan. 4pool, are you smoking today?

[HicksOut!!!]

180 of wich is in guarantees, no?


So far so good.

Of that 180 mil some of that was cash or personal loans to lower the total of 350 mil.

What the article doesn't do is break down the 90 mil it claims each had to come up with. Some of the guarantees is against assets but not all.

So the loan total was 350 mil, but the actual amount that the interest is charged against is less than 350mil.

You must be the arithmetic man; you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.

[riise6]

Surely if you get a £350m loan, you pay interest on £350m...end of story.
The guarantees are completely irrelevant unless they default.

That is FACT guarantees only come into it when you cant pay back your loan something the banks can sell on to recover their money

[Regi]

That is FACT guarantees only come into it when you cant pay back your loan something the banks can sell on to recover their money

Thank you mate.
I'm a fucking numpty when it comes to business but I'd have thought this was fundamental stuff

[4pool]

So if G&H chipped in with some cash..the loan is still 350 mil?

If G&H made personal loans-- your saying they loaned that money to the bank only for the bank to charge them interest on it ?
If so, that's the business i'm starting tommorrow. I'm claiming they would loan the club directly and skip the banks which lowers the total bank loan. But not the total loan to the club.

If G&H used their assets as guaranteees against the loan total, yes that would incur interest.

[ALECTHERED]

Its gone beyond a joke this now...reading the same old statistics weve been regurgitating for well over 12 months now...its de ja vu...sorry to dash anyones dreams but theres fuck all new happening !!! the paperazi would be onto it anyway so that would be an indicator...everyones losing the fukin plot..me included...we see someone in the stands whos been on a sunbed an say 'who was that fukin Arab?'..

Im off to get back to my life for a bit 

[Regi]

So if G&H chipped in with some cash..the loan is still 350 mil?

If G&H made personal loans-- your saying they loaned that money to the bank only for the bank to charge them interest on it ?
If so, that's the business i'm starting tommorrow. I'm claiming they would loan the club directly and skip the banks which lowers the total bank loan. But not the total loan to the club.

If G&H used their assets as guaranteees against the loan total, yes that would incur interest.

What cash did they chip in with exactly?

The bank loan is reported in every media outlet as £350m.
Not the total loan on the club from all sources, but the bank loan.
If that wasn't right, I'm sure Droopy the Dog Hicks would have said so.

The bank loan is £350m.
Any loans from them to us are over and above that, as far as I'm aware, so the interest is on £350m and the guarantees are of no relevance

[lfctitch]

Its gone beyond a joke this now...reading the same old statistics weve been regurgitating for well over 12 months now...its de ja vu...sorry to dash anyones dreams but theres fuck all new happening !!! the paperazi would be onto it anyway so that would be an indicator...everyones losing the fukin plot..me included...we see someone in the stands whos been on a sunbed an say 'who was that fukin Arab?'..

Im off to get back to my life for a bit 

1. You mean like the Media got wind of the City sale?
2. We have heard Gillett entertained an Arab, a little different than in the stands
3. Why aren't you getting on with your life anyway, as i've stated previously its only football
4. Whose losing the plot?
5. Dash our dreams, why? Because you are obviously right because there is obviously nothing going on, god i'm going to go kill myself now...

Bored of the same old posts from people who sound like there slitting there wrists over this.

[fry]

So if G&H chipped in with some cash..the loan is still 350 mil?

If G&H made personal loans-- your saying they loaned that money to the bank only for the bank to charge them interest on it ?
If so, that's the business I'm starting tommorrow. I'm claiming they would loan the club directly and skip the banks which lowers the total bank loan. But not the total loan to the club.

If G&H used their assets as guarantee es against the loan total, yes that would incur interest.

LOL.  U must be on the wind up today.  Seriously though?  do you actually believe what you have been posting in regards the guarantees? 

have we been whooshed?

[riise6]

So if G&H chipped in with some cash..the loan is still 350 mil?

If G&H made personal loans-- your saying they loaned that money to the bank only for the bank to charge them interest on it ?
If so, that's the business i'm starting tommorrow. I'm claiming they would loan the club directly and skip the banks which lowers the total bank loan. But not the total loan to the club.

If G&H used their assets as guaranteees against the loan total, yes that would incur interest.

Dont even wanna get into it my weekend has started!!

[HicksOut!!!]

So if G&H chipped in with some cash..the loan is still 350 mil?

If G&H made personal loans-- your saying they loaned that money to the bank only for the bank to charge them interest on it ?
If so, that's the business i'm starting tommorrow. I'm claiming they would loan the club directly and skip the banks which lowers the total bank loan. But not the total loan to the club.

If G&H used their assets as guaranteees against the loan total, yes that would incur interest.

What are you talking about? They didn't loan anyone anything. They said to the bank manager "Can we have 350 Million please?" and the bank said "Yes but in the event that you cannot pay back either the interest on that 350 mil or the capital sum itself under the terms we agree we will take 90 million from each of your personal piggy banks and the rest from your soccer ball club."

At no point in that transaction have they put up any significant portion of their own money - none.

It is really basic stuff and the fact you don't get it yet persist with this nonsense makes you look more stubborn and mouthy that I previously deemed possible.

[lfctitch]

What cash did they chip in with exactly?

I think 4pool is living in that world again, where nobody else lives.

It always reminds me of the smurf song everytime I read his posts.

La la la-la la la,
Sing a happy song.
La la la-la la la,
Smurf your whole day long.

La la la-la la la
Smurf along with me!
La la la-la la la
Simple as can be.

[fry]

Its gone beyond a joke this now...reading the same old statistics weve been regurgitating for well over 12 months now...its de ja vu...sorry to dash anyones dreams but theres fuck all new happening !!! the paperazi would be onto it anyway so that would be an indicator...everyones losing the fukin plot..me included...we see someone in the stands whos been on a sunbed an say 'who was that fukin Arab?'..

Im off to get back to my life for a bit 

I see where you are coming from,  not long to go now till the end of the season, I'm sure we will know by then what is going on.  I don't think the paparazzi hang around following hicks or Gillette, sports reporters/journos get passed info from sources, some info tactical some info honest.  That's the way i see it. oh and some just porkies.  I think there is more chance of someone connected with LFC spilling the beans on the net than reading about it in the papers.  I'm pretty sure that all sorts of information regarding different matters has hit forums like this before the mainstream public knows.

Suppose its all a matter of opinion and how things are perceived.  I'm glad small details are examined and debated.  Less chance of having the wool pulled over the eyes in the future and keeps the pressure on the yanks. 

too bad we will loose your contributions. 

[ALECTHERED]

1. You mean like the Media got wind of the City sale?
2. We have heard Gillett entertained an Arab, a little different than in the stands
3. Why aren't you getting on with your life anyway, as i've stated previously its only football
4. Whose losing the plot?
5. Dash our dreams, why? Because you are obviously right because there is obviously nothing going on, god i'm going to go kill myself now...

Bored of the same old posts from people who sound like there slitting there wrists over this.

1.City was a complete surprise and NO-ONE expected it. Media been sniffing round us for two years looking for stuff.
2.Yeh Gillett entertained an Arab...like he did in October and the time before that.
3.If its only football what you doing on here all the time then havent you got anything better to do? Might only be football to you but I actually really care whats happens to our club and it fuckin pisses me off at the thought of gettin raped by these two pricks.
4.Me lol..and everyone trying to work out what their next move is by going through all kinds of figures and interest rates...what they owe...what they dont owe.....Fact is we dont know what the fuck they will do or how bad (or good)their financial situation is.
5.And there has stuff been going on for ages but we dont know what it is and number crunching isnt gunna tell us...All im saying is looks like nothing imminent as we were told a couple of days ago...All Im saying is people still seem to be waiting on this announcement which doesnt look like happening...like I said in an earlier post..these rumours come out every fuckin time they come over here and I for one think it is so we keep off their backs while they are here...they leak the rumours on purpose.

And Im not talking about slitting my wrists just pissed off that we get our hopes built up so many times and knocked back down again, and as I say I believe its them fuckers at the root of it playing us like tits.

[redprodigal]

So if G&H chipped in with some cash..the loan is still 350 mil?

What the hell makes you think they have chipped in with so much as a cent???

[ttnbd]

the facts are

Credit Facility available to Kop Football Limited was £245m

Two facilities were available to the club totalling £105.5m.  This is split between a facility for the new stadium and a revolving credit facility for the club itself for working capital.

The entire loan facility is (or was depending on what was in the agreement for the extension) charged interest at 3.5% over libor.

The credit facility for Kop Football Limited has two master swaps against it.  This turns the volatile variable rate of interest into a fixed rate of interest.

As at the end of January 2008 Kop Football Limited drew down the entire £245m facility at it's disposal.  £160.4m was used to repay part of the intercompany loan from Kop Football Holdings Limited.  £64m was loaned to the club.  The remainder was retained as a cash balance.

The club, as at 31 January 2008 had drawn down £14.4m of it's available credit facility.

As at 31 July 2007 Kop Football Holdings Limited had outstanding loans totalling £202.7m  This was paid off using the £160.4m from Kop Football Limited and a loan from Kop Football (Caymen) Limited totalling £43.5m.

Interest is charged on the amount drawn down.  The guarantees are there just for security.  There is no netting off.

Since then no one has a clear idea what has gone on (bar maybe one or two who have contacts within the club)

[ALECTHERED]

I see where you are coming from,  not long to go now till the end of the season, I'm sure we will know by then what is going on.  I don't think the paparazzi hang around following hicks or Gillette, sports reporters/journos get passed info from sources, some info tactical some info honest.  That's the way i see it. oh and some just porkies.  I think there is more chance of someone connected with LFC spilling the beans on the net than reading about it in the papers.  I'm pretty sure that all sorts of information regarding different matters has hit forums like this before the mainstream public knows.

Suppose its all a matter of opinion and how things are perceived.  I'm glad small details are examined and debated.  Less chance of having the wool pulled over the eyes in the future and keeps the pressure on the yanks. 

too bad we will loose your contributions. 

Just a bit tired of it all fry...prob be ok in a couple of days, just pissed off cos been hanging on this announcement AGAIN and its de ja vu mate.....Lets be honest NO-ONE knows what the fuck their gunna do!

[ttnbd]

As for the guarantees themselves and people saying that the value of those must have gone down.  Well it all depends.

At the time of the refinancing they put up guarantees and letters of credit worth £185m.  At the time this was the equivalent of approx $370m.

Now that £185m would be worth the equivalent of $268m.  So for them to require to put up more assets to cover the original £185m their existing assets had to have dropped in value by 28%.  Not beyond the realms of possibility, however for the letters of credit, there will be a relatively minor change, for the guarantees it depends on what assets were used.

And conversely, if they still had those assets and they are still worth $370m, that would now cover loans of £255m.

[redprodigal]

the facts are

Credit Facility available to Kop Football Limited was £245m

Two facilities were available to the club totalling £105.5m.  This is split between a facility for the new stadium and a revolving credit facility for the club itself for working capital.

The entire loan facility is (or was depending on what was in the agreement for the extension) charged interest at 3.5% over libor.

The credit facility for Kop Football Limited has two master swaps against it.  This turns the volatile variable rate of interest into a fixed rate of interest.

As at the end of January 2008 Kop Football Limited drew down the entire £245m facility at it's disposal.  £160.4m was used to repay part of the intercompany loan from Kop Football Holdings Limited.  £64m was loaned to the club.  The remainder was retained as a cash balance.

The club, as at 31 January 2008 had drawn down £14.4m of it's available credit facility.

As at 31 July 2007 Kop Football Holdings Limited had outstanding loans totalling £202.7m  This was paid off using the £160.4m from Kop Football Limited and a loan from Kop Football (Caymen) Limited totalling £43.5m.

Interest is charged on the amount drawn down.  The guarantees are there just for security.  There is no netting off.

Since then no one has a clear idea what has gone on (bar maybe one or two who have contacts within the club)

Tim, that looks very confusing to us mere mortals.
What's the difference between Kop football Holdings Ltd, Kop football ltd and Kop Football (Caymen) ltd, aren't they all companies owned by our owners. It just looks like some of the debt is on our club and the rest is on the owners of our club, which means it is all on our club one way or the other.
In your opinion is there any sense in what 4pool is saying or not?

[RedJam70]

As I understand it the structure is of parent and subsidiary companies as so:

1 LFC
2 Kop Football Ltd
3 Kop Football Holdings Ltd
4 Kop Football Ltd (Caymen)

I have a feeling it ends up in Delaware somewhere (i.e the owners) but not sure.

So LFC has access to a £105 million loan. £60 million for the stadium and a £45 million credit facility of which we've drawn out £14.4 million (RBS). LFC also got a loan of £64 million from it's parent company Kop F ltd, so we owe as a club £78.4 million.

Kop Football Ltd drew it's full loan facility of £245 million (RBS). Loaned £64 million to the club and repaid a loan of £160.4 million to Kop F Holdings Ltd. So it has used 224.4 million up and has kept the rest as cash.

Kop Football Holdings Ltd owed £202.7 million which it paid off. £160.4 million (part of the RBS £245 million loan) came from the subsidiary company below it and £43.5 milion from its parent company (maybe from the owners? not sure).

So as of 31 Jan 2008 £259.4 million is owed in total on the RBS loan. Whether the £43.5 million is owed too and needs to be repaid I don't know. You just have to follow the money up and down the structure. I suspect the £202.7 million outstanding loan on Kop Football Holdings Ltd was the original loan used to purchase the club in the first place. What other money has been drawn down since then is also not known.

This is all my understanding though, so don't take it as gospel.

[RedJam70]

As for the guarantees the Telegraph had it as:

The fresh demand from the banks means that Gillett and Hicks are now being asked to put up a total of £225m to ensure the refinancing is completed, with each of the US sports tycoons providing £20m in cash, £37.5m in letters of credit and £55m in personal guarantees.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2289769/Tom-Hicks-and-George-Gillett-close-to-new-deal.html

If the £20 million cash each was used as cash collateral then I think the bank holds it? Not sure.

cash collateral finance definition
Items such as cash, negotiable instruments, titles, securities, deposit accounts, or other cash equivalents in which the debtorÂ’s estate and an entity other than the estate have an interest. Cash collateral may not be used, sold, or leased in the ordinary course of business unless the creditor with an interest in the collateral consents or the court, after notice and a hearing, authorizes the transaction.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/finance/cash-collateral

If they put it in as equity then it roughly amounts to the £43.5 million loaned by Kop F Ltd (Caymen) so it might be that. I suspect the owners would want it to be repaid at some point if it is.

[lfctitch]

1.City was a complete surprise and NO-ONE expected it. Media been sniffing round us for two years looking for stuff.
2.Yeh Gillett entertained an Arab...like he did in October and the time before that.
3.If its only football what you doing on here all the time then havent you got anything better to do? Might only be football to you but I actually really care whats happens to our club and it fuckin pisses me off at the thought of gettin raped by these two pricks.
4.Me lol..and everyone trying to work out what their next move is by going through all kinds of figures and interest rates...what they owe...what they dont owe.....Fact is we dont know what the fuck they will do or how bad (or good)their financial situation is.
5.And there has stuff been going on for ages but we dont know what it is and number crunching isnt gunna tell us...All im saying is looks like nothing imminent as we were told a couple of days ago...All Im saying is people still seem to be waiting on this announcement which doesnt look like happening...like I said in an earlier post..these rumours come out every fuckin time they come over here and I for one think it is so we keep off their backs while they are here...they leak the rumours on purpose.

And Im not talking about slitting my wrists just pissed off that we get our hopes built up so many times and knocked back down again, and as I say I believe its them fuckers at the root of it playing us like tits.

1. Things are much quieter now Parry has been shut out.
2. I agree, but this time is different, time is ticking.
3. I myself am passionate as you are about getting rid of them; however -
    - We are still going for the Premier League title I ask you what would happen if a take over was announced today:

Daily Mail

Liverpool to sign Kaka

Daily Mirror

Overhaul of Liverpool players to take place, where Kuyt, Agger and Alonso to be sold to be replaced by Ribery, Abidol and Iniesta

The times

Liverpool stadium to be built quickly

-----

You get the picture. What should be the focus of the attention right now?

1. Liverpool's Premier League run in
2. Liverpool's Premier League run in
3. Liverpool's Premier League run in.

----

Lets do the talking on the field, and let off the field stuff wait.

[TSC]

4pool mate give it up, please!

I think it's worth noting the fact that Southampton were effectively 'relegated' today due to the holding company (Southampton Leisure Holdings) going into administration.  Saints were docked 10 points and lawyers were confident the saints wouldn't suffer as it was only the 'holding company' that had gone into admin and not the football club. 

This potentially sets a precedent insofar should 'kop holdings' go into receivership then it will have similar repercussions on Liverpool Football Club.

So attempting to 'hide' debts via some holding company obviously won't work, and even the plebs that are in charge of football in this country aren't that dopey to fall for this ruse.

[paul j]

what a surprise no big news.why not close all theese threads about takeovers of the club,and only start a thread when it has been confirmed that the club has been sold(heres hoping).these threads just go on and on and turn into a joke because nothing happens they are a waste of time.

[lfctitch]

Also:

None of us can change the outcome of this, but it does for some need to be discussed. The problems have arisen because people have got there wires crossed.

As previously mentioned SL/Gedo never hinted at a Friday deadline, they believe something is happening at present that could change the future of the club.
This could be internally at this stage, and as yet the public don't need to know.

The friday deadline came from a poster on LFC.TV - whether he was telling the truth about this or not is neither here nor there, he quickly retracted his statement, and became distant when people pushed him. Perhaps something is going on, perhaps today there was a deadline, perhaps its just like chinese whispers and right now nobody but Gillett and Hicks know whats going on.

As I keep saying on these boards, we (bar 1) are all on the same side. We want them out as much as the next person, but why start kicking up a fuss, when a persons information is wrong. We're all sick and tired of the lying scum bags that are Hicks and Gillett, but right now nobody knows:

- If we will be refinanced
- If a deal has been done already
- If a deal will be done
- If anybody is interested.

All we know is:

- Refinancing needs to be done in July
- The owners aren't cash rich
- We are in one of the worst climates in history
- There has been interest before, and there likely will be again.

[lfctitch]

what a surprise no big news.why not close all theese threads about takeovers of the club,and only start a thread when it has been confirmed that the club has been sold(heres hoping).these threads just go on and on and turn into a joke because nothing happens they are a waste of time.

And once again:

Because some of us want to actually discuss this, if you don't like it

- LEAVE!

We want this thread open to discuss the matters, why should we have to fight people to keep them open, because you believed a poster on LFC.TV

[TSC]

And once again:

Because some of us want to actually discuss this, if you don't like it

- LEAVE!

We want this thread open to discuss the matters, why should we have to fight people to keep them open, because you believed a poster on LFC.TV

Yep, guaranteed as soon as this thread is locked another will start below it anyway as has prob happened about 10 times now.

[paul j]

And once again:

Because some of us want to actually discuss this, if you don't like it

- LEAVE!

We want this thread open to discuss the matters, why should we have to fight people to keep them open, because you believed a poster on LFC.TV

show me were i have said i have read or believed anything that has been put on lfc.tv.but the fact is these threads are all saying the samething and are going round in circles.

[coffeehead]

So as of 31 Jan 2008 £259.4 million is owed in total on the RBS loan. Whether the £43.5 million is owed too and needs to be repaid I don't know. You just have to follow the money up and down the structure. I suspect the £202.7 million outstanding loan on Kop Football Holdings Ltd was the original loan used to purchase the club in the first place. What other money has been drawn down since then is also not known.

This is all my understanding though, so don't take it as gospel.

Yes basically the 202m would be the initial bridging loan taken out to pay the purchase price plus the existing debt of about 40m (ish) which KFHLtd took on back in Jan 2007. The extra 43m you mention was loaned to KFHLtd by Kop (Caymen), which is tantamount to saying that G&H loaned us around 20m each.

But before 4pool gets excited it should be noted that a) it was a loan, not equity or an investment b) oddly enough it places G&H among our creditors and you can believe they'll be as eager to get that money back as anyone else and c) it was in addition to the 245m taken on by KF and the 105m available to LFC.

What remains unanswered is that report about Torres and Babel being bought using credit notes that will expire separately to the main facility. Is that what the 43m from KC to KFH was?

[coffeehead]

show me were i have said i have read or believed anything that has been put on lfc.tv.but the fact is these threads are all saying the samething and are going round in circles.

nevertheless the question still stands; why do you require it to be closed? Just don't bother reading it if it offends your sensibilities.

[TSC]

show me were i have said i have read or believed anything that has been put on lfc.tv.but the fact is these threads are all saying the samething and are going round in circles.

Well don't comment then, or simply don't read them.

[RedJam70]

Yes basically the 202m would be the initial bridging loan taken out to pay the purchase price plus the existing debt of about 40m (ish) which KFHLtd took on back in Jan 2007. The extra 43m you mention was loaned to KFHLtd by Kop (Caymen), which is tantamount to saying that G&H loaned us around 20m each.

But before 4pool gets excited it should be noted that a) it was a loan, not equity or an investment b) oddly enough it places G&H among our creditors and you can believe they'll be as eager to get that money back as anyone else and c) it was in addition to the 245m taken on by KF and the 105m available to LFC.

What remains unanswered is that report about Torres and Babel being bought using credit notes that will expire separately to the main facility. Is that what the 43m from KC to KFH was?

Yeah thinking about it, Tim says the £43 million was a loan so it's looks like it is entirely seperate to the £20 million each they apparently had to put up as collateral. I'd hazard a guess that that money is being held by the bank.

[RedJam70]

show me were i have said i have read or believed anything that has been put on lfc.tv.but the fact is these threads are all saying the samething and are going round in circles.

Read the news article thread if you want info without speculation.

[Something Else]

Christ 4pool, i defend you at times cos i think you get  bad rap from some as you try to show a different side, which can help in gaining perspective, however the comments today are a total head fuck

[shelovesyou]

[4pool]

Christ 4pool, i defend you at times cos i think you get  bad rap from some as you try to show a different side, which can help in gaining perspective, however the comments today are a total head fuck

I do my worst at times..