Topic: Ferguson: Benitez has spent more money

[hoonin]

So you conveniently ignored the point I actually made. That Ferguson may spend as much, maybe even more than Benitez. But when he spends big, he spends big on a few players his squad really needs.

Regardless of any net or gross figures it's a bit of a facile argument, no?

The sqaud inherited by Rafael Benitez finished miles behind Utd in his first couple of seasons. Hindsight suggests that squad was not "fit for purpose" in the league and needed an overhaul (or buying established players as you accurately put it). That was the case right through the team.

Contrast that to Utds position. As has been pointed out, they already had a team and squad honed over nearly 2 decades  under the same manager, whereas we went back to square one by replacing Houllier.

For me thats the single most important reason for getting Rafa signed up on a new contract. Another round of shelling out for a new set of players for a new manager might just have been the final nail in the coffin of any hopes of challenging for the league.

[StormyDog]

Emmm...how did that team of Champions come about again? It was built on the back of players like Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt, and the Chuckle brothers. All youth players.

Anyway, if you use your brain you will see that we don't need six players in the summer. Just like last summer, we may need one or two real quality additions. Yet last summer we also spent 11 million on a left back and a goalkeeper we didn't need. I can only hope we don't make the same mistake again this year.

I must disagree, at the start of this season we had NO credible Keeper for cover (would you risk Itangie in the league) and no LB for when Aurelio stubs his toe.

Over this year we've seen Insua develop quicker than many of us suspected so this allows us to trim a LB, but Aurelio is still as fragile as ever.
Though not as good as Riena,  Cavalieri is a reasonable backup. Hope not to use him, but he seems OK now that he's had time to adapt.

[Cloggs]

Vidic was signed in the same transfer window as Evra.

These are the incoming transfers from the same transfer windows as when they bought Rooney:

In: Gabriel Heinze (Paris St-Germain, £6.9m), Liam Miller (Celtic, free), Alan Smith (Leeds United, £7m), Gerard Pique (Barcelona, undisclosed), Giuseppe Rossi (Parma, free), Wayne Rooney (Everton, £20m initial amount)

The summer they got Anderson, Nani and Hargreaves, they also got in Tevez on loan. Had they bought him, that would've been another £32m on top of the £53m they committed to that trio. Oh and Kusczak.

The truth is hidden in your post. Ferguson spends big on a few players his squad really needs. He's been building this squad for nigh on ten years. He has the time and money on his side to do whatever the fuck he wants.
Rafa needed to overhaul an entire squad but couldn't do it all at once. We couldn't sign Torres, Babel, Agger, Mascherano, Skrtel, Riera, Alonso, Crouch, Reina, Luis Garcia, Kuyt, Bellamy, etc all in the same summer - partly because the funds required would be massive, as well as clearing out the rest of the squad instantly but because these players weren't at the level at which they were ready to play for Liverpool then. Who else were we supposed to get?

And what reserves? Whitbread? Welsh? Raven? Mellor? Are any of these players in the Premier League any more? You had Guthrie who plays in the strongest position we have at the club, did you want to restrict his growth or drop one of Hamann, Biscan, Gerrard, Alonso, Lucas or Mascherano?

I would agree with all of that, had it not been for last summer. Last season, we finished very strongly. We had Gerrard and Torres up front, as we do now, and it was there for all to see that they could not be stopped, as they can't now.

Last summer we were in the position Ferguson is in, yet we still went on to spend on a large numbers of players rather than two good ones. Is Riera a good player? Sure, but imagine what we could have done with the 19 million freed up if we had not bought Dossena, Cavalieri and Riera?

[TSC]

I would agree with all of that, had it not been for last summer. Last season, we finished very strongly. We had Gerrard and Torres up front, as we do now, and it was there for all to see that they could not be stopped, as they can't now.

Last summer we were in the position Ferguson is in, yet we still went on to spend on a large numbers of players rather than two good ones. Is Riera a good player? Sure, but imagine what we could have done with the 19 million freed up if we had not bought Dossena, Cavalieri and Riera?

And Keane - £20m.  In theory we should at least have the money recouped from Keane to spend, whatever it was in the end.

[Cloggs]

I must disagree, at the start of this season we had NO credible Keeper for cover (would you risk Itangie in the league) and no LB for when Aurelio stubs his toe.

Over this year we've seen Insua develop quicker than many of us suspected so this allows us to trim a LB, but Aurelio is still as fragile as ever.
Though not as good as Riena,  Cavalieri is a reasonable backup. Hope not to use him, but he seems OK now that he's had time to adapt.

Martin and Insua. And that is exactly the difference. You say we've seen Insua develop faster than expected but the fact of the matter is that he had already played first team football. Ferguson just throws on Rafael at right back, Evans at the back and Wellbeck up front, whereas Benitez prefers to buy Dossena, Degen and Cavalieri. Even if Degen was on a free, you still need to pay him wages.

[Gainsbarre]

Sure, but imagine what we could have done with the 19 million freed up if we had not bought Dossena, Cavalieri and Riera?

Buy Defoe? 

[Cloggs]

Regardless of any net or gross figures it's a bit of a facile argument, no?

The sqaud inherited by Rafael Benitez finished miles behind Utd in his first couple of seasons. Hindsight suggests that squad was not "fit for purpose" in the league and needed an overhaul (or buying established players as you accurately put it). That was the case right through the team.

Contrast that to Utds position. As has been pointed out, they already had a team and squad honed over nearly 2 decades  under the same manager, whereas we went back to square one by replacing Houllier.

For me thats the single most important reason for getting Rafa signed up on a new contract. Another round of shelling out for a new set of players for a new manager might just have been the final nail in the coffin of any hopes of challenging for the league.

Absolutely true. Yet no one can deny that the money he spent last summer was not spent wisely.

[Cloggs]

Buy Defoe? 

Arshavin went for 12 million. Took 2 matches to score his first goal in the Premiership and can play on the right wing, left wing and just off the striker.

[hoonin]

You say we've seen Insua develop faster than expected but the fact of the matter is that he had already played first team football.

I cant seem to find any evidence to corroborate that claim.....

Who did he play for and it what league?

[Yiannis]

It seems to me that Fergie is trying with every possible way to have a go at Rafa because he lost the match last Saturday in such manner and he can't do anything else than speak.I personally get it,4 goals is too much!!!

[Gainsbarre]

Arshavin went for 12 million. Took 2 matches to score his first goal in the Premier League and can play on the right wing, left wing and just off the striker.

It's a particular case because he obligated Zenit to let him go, so his price tag dropped. We'll see how this will end! But even if You buy him for 12 m£ and you buy Cavalieri for 3m£, who will be the cover for your left back? Insua? Cmoon... when everyone is pushing for the title and you are the manager, could, would and should you count on a player like him?

[hoonin]

Absolutely true. Yet no one can deny that the money he spent last summer was not spent wisely.

Wont ague that as I see your point about spending more on quality and less on squad depth.

[redrockydennis]

hasn't rafa got loads of youth players over the last few years as well? and isn't he trying to overhaul the academy so we can bring players through?

[StormyDog]

Martin and Insua. And that is exactly the difference. You say we've seen Insua develop faster than expected but the fact of the matter is that he had already played first team football. Ferguson just throws on Rafael at right back, Evans at the back and Wellbeck up front, whereas Benitez prefers to buy Dossena, Degen and Cavalieri. Even if Degen was on a free, you still need to pay him wages.

What's the problem with that ?
Martin's jump would be tooooooo great he needs a year or two at a lower club before being thrown into LFC's goal just look what has happened to Carson once he was dumped into goal at 18/19. He still flaps around like a flounder.
Insua's confidence could have been destroyed if he was forced to play for 5-6 games in a row and humiliated each game, now he's able to be gently introduced to 1st team action.

United's players (Wellbeck etc) only play one at a time and are not expected to produce much. If United play Rafel at RB they still have Ronaldo Rooney Tevez/Berbatov to bail the lad out if his mistake costs them a goal. For most of the year we have not had our 2 biggest goal threats on the pitch together.
You would not see Ferguson risking the new blood in tight games against tough opposition without his big guns on show.

[StormyDog]

It seems to me that Fergie is trying with every possible way to have a go at Rafa because he lost the match last Saturday in such manner and he can't do anything else than speak.I personally get it,4 goals is too much!!!

No he's having a go at Rafa 'cause he knows that Rafa is staying here for 4 more years (at least).

[SMD]

I would agree with all of that, had it not been for last summer. Last season, we finished very strongly. We had Gerrard and Torres up front, as we do now, and it was there for all to see that they could not be stopped, as they can't now.

Last summer we were in the position Ferguson is in, yet we still went on to spend on a large numbers of players rather than two good ones. Is Riera a good player? Sure, but imagine what we could have done with the 19 million freed up if we had not bought Dossena, Cavalieri and Riera?

Last season we finished strongly after being knocked out of both domestic cups and being out of the title race. We suffered injuries in the first half of the season and players were coming back. We also sold Riise and couldn't rely on Aurelio on a full season. Carson left permanently and Itandje...yeah. And we needed Riera to bring balance to side, which he did. Half way through this season, people were crying out for a right sided version of him.

And Gerrard and Torres are relatively fresh because they've missed chunks of this season through injury. Torres looked completely burned out at the beginning of the season before his hamstring went.

You're making no sense.

[gollne]

Hes cracking up.

[hide5seek]

Regardless of any net or gross figures it's a bit of a facile argument, no?

The sqaud inherited by Rafael Benitez finished miles behind Utd in his first couple of seasons. Hindsight suggests that squad was not "fit for purpose" in the league and needed an overhaul (or buying established players as you accurately put it). That was the case right through the team.

Contrast that to Utds position. As has been pointed out, they already had a team and squad honed over nearly 2 decades  under the same manager, whereas we went back to square one by replacing Houllier.

For me thats the single most important reason for getting Rafa signed up on a new contract. Another round of shelling out for a new set of players for a new manager might just have been the final nail in the coffin of any hopes of challenging for the league.

Brilliant post and agree with it 100%.

No idea if Rafa will win us the title in the next 5 seasons but we can't keep chopping and changing starting from scratch every 5 seasons. It's time to back someone for the long haul and see where it takes us.

[bigbear]

It's a particular case because he obligated Zenit to let him go, so his price tag dropped. We'll see how this will end! But even if You buy him for 12 m£ and you buy Cavalieri for 3m£, who will be the cover for your left back? Insua? Cmoon... when everyone is pushing for the title and you are the manager, could, would and should you count on a player like him?

Yes, Insua is good enough and I would count on him ahead of Dossena.

Arshavin would have been a great signing for us as he can play across the line.

Re the original idea, Ferguson is rattled and us having a pop at Rafa every chance he can. He probably had a little speach prepared for last Saturday after the "assumed" victory along the lines of...
"This club prefers to do its talking on the pitch and that's why we're still going for the title and Liverpool are not".

Regrettably for him the result didn't go quite to plan.

[PIPA23]

He's cracking up...........

  true

[bigbear]

Brilliant post and agree with it 100%.

No idea if Rafa will win us the title in the next 5 seasons but we can't keep chopping and changing starting from scratch every 5 seasons. It's time to back someone for the long haul and see where it takes us.

Benitez will win us the title next year. The key players are the right age and if he is given the squad he wants then he will deliver it. The fear factor with United is over now.

[Cloggs]

I cant seem to find any evidence to corroborate that claim.....

Who did he play for and it what league?

err...for us...he made his debut in the 2006/2007 season. The point I tried to make was that in spite of Insua already having played first team football for us, we still brought in Dossena. Whereas, with Gary Neville ageing, Ferguson throws in Rafael and only looks at buying someone if that doesn't work out.

[Cloggs]

It's a particular case because he obligated Zenit to let him go, so his price tag dropped. We'll see how this will end! But even if You buy him for 12 m£ and you buy Cavalieri for 3m£, who will be the cover for your left back? Insua? Cmoon... when everyone is pushing for the title and you are the manager, could, would and should you count on a player like him?

Yes

[hoonin]

err...for us...he made his debut in the 2006/2007 season.

Ah right, got ya.

You're still wrong though

[SMD]

Gary Neville, Wes Brown, Owen Hargreaves and even John O'Shea have missed parts of this season through injury. It got to the point where Rafael's the only player available for that position.

And he's been done quite a few times this season - we've already seen so far how the crowd can get on the back of younger, foreign players. Thank God Insua isn't ahead of a young Academy player.

[redannie]

I'm curious to know who these 60 players are who've figured in the reserves this season?!

[Cloggs]

Last season we finished strongly after being knocked out of both domestic cups and being out of the title race. We suffered injuries in the first half of the season and players were coming back. We also sold Riise and couldn't rely on Aurelio on a full season. Carson left permanently and Itandje...yeah. And we needed Riera to bring balance to side, which he did. Half way through this season, people were crying out for a right sided version of him.

And Gerrard and Torres are relatively fresh because they've missed chunks of this season through injury. Torres looked completely burned out at the beginning of the season before his hamstring went.

You're making no sense.

If I'm not making sense to you, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

[b_joseph]

I used to think that he was quite intelligent with this kind of stuff.

Fuck me was I wrong about that. Only a moron would come out with the stuff that he came out with yesterday.

Even if we had the same net spend since 2004. He doesnt seem to understand that their is a monumental difference between spending 30 mill on 5 players to spending 30 million on 1 player.

[cal_liverpoolfc]

Isn't he dead yet?

hahaah

[cal_liverpoolfc]

I used to think that he was quite intelligent with this kind of stuff.

Fuck me was I wrong about that. Only a moron would come out with the stuff that he came out with yesterday.

Even if we had the same net spend since 2004. He doesnt seem to understand that their is a monumental difference between spending 30 mill on 5 players to spending 30 million on 1 player.

Its because he is a stupid whiskey nosed piss head of a shit house.

[Cloggs]

What's the problem with that ?
Martin's jump would be tooooooo great he needs a year or two at a lower club before being thrown into LFC's goal just look what has happened to Carson once he was dumped into goal at 18/19. He still flaps around like a flounder.
Insua's confidence could have been destroyed if he was forced to play for 5-6 games in a row and humiliated each game, now he's able to be gently introduced to 1st team action.

United's players (Wellbeck etc) only play one at a time and are not expected to produce much. If United play Rafel at RB they still have Ronaldo Rooney Tevez/Berbatov to bail the lad out if his mistake costs them a goal. For most of the year we have not had our 2 biggest goal threats on the pitch together.
You would not see Ferguson risking the new blood in tight games against tough opposition without his big guns on show.

What happened to Carson was that he made one mistake against Juventus and he got dropped. On top of that, he was competing with one of the world's best goalkeepers who was only in his early twenties himself at the time. Insua's confidence could only be destroyed by his manager and his team mates, not by one bad performance. It's a managers job to keep players confident.

You speak as if I've said that we should only play reserves and they should all be first team players. What I'm saying is that a first team lineup that has:

Reina, Carragher/Skrtel/Agger, Gerrard/Alonso/Mascherano and Torres as a core can easily accommodate Insua or Darby or Anderson or Leto (when he can play) or Pacheco or even two of those at the same time. I haven't said drop Kuijt, Babel, Yossi, Arbeloa and Aurelio.

[Cloggs]

I used to think that he was quite intelligent with this kind of stuff.

Fuck me was I wrong about that. Only a moron would come out with the stuff that he came out with yesterday.

Even if we had the same net spend since 2004. He doesnt seem to understand that their is a monumental difference between spending 30 mill on 5 players to spending 30 million on 1 player.

A lot of people on here seem to suffer from the same affliction.

[Benimar Col]

Nice one Rafa, the Charlie tango foxtrot is running for it! He's scared shitless hes actually spending money on accountants to try and dig his way out!

keep it up!

the thing that annoys me about these spats in the media ?     why are we getting involved,  you never heard the GREAT Managers of Liverpool FC being drawn into this egotistic shite, 

[Ryan M]

I find it unbelievable that Ferguson has found his voice again, he might as well have gone for it and sang "United Road", unless that was him before the game last Saturday :p

Talking of Net spend, surely since the brilliant youngsters he did bring through in the early nineties, I can not think of one since who has become in the same league as; Giggs, Beckham, Scholes etc. Wes Brown is OK, as is Darren Fletcher. That's two in ten years. The only one who has the required potential is Evans, Centre Half. The lad looks like he could have a big future in front of him. However I don find it hilarious how Sky Sports are trying to back up his remarks. We all know the love Sky and other media sources have for United and Sir Alex, and they are never shy to back up them up with "Facts". However Sky Sports added the numbers up and realised that Ferguson is wrong regarding transfer fees. That is why they have tried to ignore the "facts". However they were not shy in pointing out that Sir Alex has gave 11 players their first team debut, who I hope are through their academy and not counting Nani, Anderson and Tosic, which Ferguson mentioned. According to sky sports we have only played 4 during Rafa's time. Raven, Potter, Guthrie and Warnock were named. However this is extreme lazy journalism from Sky Sports, I may be mistaken, but John Welsh came on against Arsenal in 2005?

I would like to finish my post on finding the delight from Ferguson's comments, I believe Sir Alex is realising Rafa is doing what he done to us, knocking them off their perch.

Final comments are that;
"Rafa's right,
Them Facts are shite"!

[hoonin]

What happened to Carson was that he made one mistake against Juventus and he got dropped.

Come on mate, you wont get anyone agreeing with that piece of revisionism.

We all know full well he wasn't "dropped" as he played in the next game against City. He got those games because Dudek was inured until he returned in Turin.

[tomtom]

I would agree with all of that, had it not been for last summer. Last season, we finished very strongly. We had Gerrard and Torres up front, as we do now, and it was there for all to see that they could not be stopped, as they can't now.

Last summer we were in the position Ferguson is in, yet we still went on to spend on a large numbers of players rather than two good ones. Is Riera a good player? Sure, but imagine what we could have done with the 19 million freed up if we had not bought Dossena, Cavalieri and Riera?

No we weren't, that's a load of bollocks. Your telling me we didnt need a keeper, a left back, a left winger and a support striker at the start of the season?

Itanjie is shit.

We didn't know for sure Insua would step up at the start of the season.

We only had the inconsistent Babel for left wing.

And we clearly did need another striker, on which we did spend big just it didn't turn out as we hoped, these things happen.

You may point and say previous players Rafa has brought in should fill those voids, but on his budget it is a bit hit and miss each season. You can't go out and get the dead cert's each year for each position because you will be left short in another position. Wouldn't it be great if we'd bought a 30 million pound winger for the right, but we hadn't bought a decent reserve keeper; Reina gets injured and we've got a liability in net... Or a left back; Insua doesn't make the step up and Aurelio gets injured... we'd be fucked. Or Babel, plays as shit as he has done on the left... all season, fucked.

What is obvious is despite Rafa's high turnover of players, from which he recoups a lot and has spent less than Ferguson, he is improving the team at a steady rate and is making up ground, so what if he brings in more players than some c*nt down the road each year, thats them.

Anyway, when you take into account the years Ferguson's has had to build the squad he's got currently its obvious why Rafa is bringing in more players, Ferguson knows this he's just being a twat and stirring the press. I'll bet if you look at Ferguson's earlyier years you will see a similar trend - Ferguson is fine tuning, we are still in the building phase.

I'm going to ignore the old bastard, he's clearly worried about us.

[yafoy]

re: Fergie...
treat what he says the same way as  Sky & the media...ignore it!

[lfc_bhoy]

What happened to Carson was that he made one mistake against Juventus and he got dropped. On top of that, he was competing with one of the world's best goalkeepers who was only in his early twenties himself at the time. Insua's confidence could only be destroyed by his manager and his team mates, not by one bad performance. It's a managers job to keep players confident.

You speak as if I've said that we should only play reserves and they should all be first team players. What I'm saying is that a first team lineup that has:

Reina, Carragher/Skrtel/Agger, Gerrard/Alonso/Mascherano and Torres as a core can easily accommodate Insua or Darby or Anderson or Leto (when he can play) or Pacheco or even two of those at the same time. I haven't said drop Kuijt, Babel, Yossi, Arbeloa and Aurelio.

You mean the great Carson that's kept West Brom out of trouble?  To some extent it is the managers job to keep moral up but his first obligation is to get the results and if he doesn't think Scott fucking Carson can do that who am I to argue?  Insua, as it happens, has played well and has, surprise surprise, gotten more starts.  If we weren't pushing for the top four and trying to continue our European dominance, yes, there's plenty of room in the first team for Darby, Anderson, Leto, and Pacheco.  In fact, why not sell our first team, minus Gerrard, Torres, and Mascherano and play as many youngsters as possible, that is our priority right, get as many 15 year olds on the pitch as possible, and that means you automatically win right?  You say you're not advocating doing just that but you then hang Rafa from your own absurdly simply cross.  "Ya we're tied for second but why don't we play more youngsters", "We're good in Europe but we need more million pound players we can't afford".  Get behind the fucking team and stop nitpicking.

If I'm not making sense to you, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Yes, please stop the madness.

[paranoidmike]

it's squeaky bum time and by the sound of Fegies rant he needs to get the WD40 out.

[Jason McG]

the thing that annoys me about these spats in the media ?     why are we getting involved,  you never heard the GREAT Managers of Liverpool FC being drawn into this egotistic shite, 

But we didn't have 24 hour sports 'news' on TV and the same level of written media coverage in the 60's, 70's and 80's. The fact is, Shankly would have been all over the press if he were managing in todays game, the idea that he would have played evrything out behind closed doors is a joke. Take some time to read some of the best Shankly quotes and look at the number that relate to other clubs. Then imagine the spin that todays media would have put on them.

In terms of 'sir' alex, that's an astonishing rant, I can't believe a manger would attack another in that way. Twice in a week, he should concentrate on his own club. He's cracking up.