Topic: The 'Negative Twats Annoy Me' thread

[macca888]

Different people react differently. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it will always remain. Why are you so shocked at that? The only difference is in this interweb age you get to read about it a bit more.
Sorry to go against the grain but pointless thread

Sorry mate but I don't agree that it is simply down to the interweb. In thirty years, I've never seen such negativity, even when we were playing the worst football I've personally witnessed, under Souey and then later on with Houllier. It seems most definitely due more to the impatience of a Me, Now culture amongst people who have never learnt the art of emotional and social intelligence, optimism and delayed gratification. Sure, Sly, the written media and the net have contributed to more instant and more headline grabbing communication, but that only counts for so much. Personal skills count for much more, and unfortunately, fans today have many such skills still to be learnt. And my usual empathic self goes of the window when I see and hear that negativity, until I just feel like shouting "get a fucking grip you ne ative twats!" The thread then is not pointless, because it allows people to share their reasons for retaining their positivity in spite of such perverse negativity.

[Hinesy]

I'd take that a step further Hinesy... True fans are also entitled to kick right off if they think something is wrong at the club, and try to change it. In fact, it's their duty. As to just follow like sheep, no matter what is going on, is not being a true fan.

Just imagine mate, if it wasn't for the Toll Puddle Martyrs, you wouldn't be getting the big bucks, fast cars and gorgeous girls that you get for moderating.

So, moaning, whingeing and even kicking up fuck is right. The problem is, directing it properly. I'm convinced that shouldn't be in Rafa's direction. Booing the team, and individual players just isn't on anyway. But as far as I'm concerned, a mental blind man on a fast horse should be able to see what Rafa has/is doing for this club. Others just think he's a fat Spanish dumb waiter.

Where is the People's Front Of Judea when you need them, eh.

I've put in bold the best line in this thread. Might have to change your custom title again.

[Hinesy]

macca 888 I think there was a lot more negativity around at the end of Ged's reign to be honest.


I'd be fascinated to know how we'd feel if all our draws came at the start of the season then we starting winning, effectively reversing the order of results. Same for utd.

I'd imagine a lot of short termers (copyright thank you) would be thinking Come On, we can can catch them, and the media would be Ooh have they left it too late, or are utd shaking with these recent run of poor form and so on.

The table would be the same but the outlook entirely different.

[macca888]

macca 888 I think there was a lot more negativity around at the end of Ged's reign to be honest.


I'd be fascinated to know how we'd feel if all our draws came at the start of the season then we starting winning, effectively reversing the order of results. Same for utd.

I'd imagine a lot of short termers (copyright thank you) would be thinking Come On, we can can catch them, and the media would be Ooh have they left it too late, or are utd shaking with these recent run of poor form and so on.

The table would be the same but the outlook entirely different.

Hinesy, I do get what you're saying about Ged's reign, but it just seems to have intensified to such an extent over the last few months that it's hard to get that perspective of it being worse at the time.  I do think that the mindset might change, but  there's a few possible outcomes that I could see if it was reversed the way you suggest. Firstly, it could embolden the campaign to get Rafa out from them and would probably intensify to such an extent that we might have the situation where the Yanks might just do a Spurs/Chelsea/Newcastle/any other short termers (Copyright Hinesy) and sack Rafa to pander to them, taking a poor start to a possibly even worse finish.


As for the media, I'm certain that whatever negative spin they put on us, they will carry on regardless. I think if we won the league by a country mile, the headlines would be something along the lines of "Lucky Liverpool Take Advantage Of United's Decline." There's no way we would be congratulated for it. On the upside, Andy Gray would probably resign, because if anything remotely complimentary came out of his mouth about us, he'd probably burst into a bigger outburst than Fergie after a good gin soaking.


On the other hand, we might just get the pessimists to fuck right off. RAWK would probably be emptier than a Bridgend rope shop. Surely they wouldn't have the brass neck to crawl out of the woodwork after spending the whole start of the season moaning and groaning, and then coming out in support of Rafa when he started winning? Surely not?   

[nocturnalvin]

I'd be fascinated to know how we'd feel if all our draws came at the start of the season then we starting winning, effectively reversing the order of results. Same for utd.

I'd imagine a lot of short termers (copyright thank you) would be thinking Come On, we can can catch them, and the media would be Ooh have they left it too late, or are utd shaking with these recent run of poor form and so on.

The table would be the same but the outlook entirely different.

Thats an interesting point actually.

Psychologically it would have felt different, the moaning would be less now, although it would have been overwhelming at the start of the season.

[harvs1303]

I've not posted on here for a while, as I am sick of hearing all of the negativity. Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion, i firmly believe that our club has the best possible manager, after all, who would all the rafa out brigade replace him with?? Mourinho, O'Neill, Klinsmann? Fuck off, there's no way i'd replace Rafa with anyone, the guy is perfect for this club, not only in his respect for our traditions and supporters, but also in his ability to take us back to the days when we took winning trophies for granted.
The problem with a lot of people nowadays is that the things that are being done right are quickly forgotten, and the things that need improvement are dwelt upon.
I, like everyone, am wholly unimpressed with some of the performances by the team, and certain players in particular at times this season, but at the moment we are a work in progress, and to actually boo any player wearing that red shirt is an absolute disgrace, and if thats what you want to pay your money to do then fuck off and watch Arsenal or England, me I'm of the opinion that anyone wearing that shirt should be supported as long as they are putting in the effort.
Lets see where all the rafa out gobshites are in May when we take a trip to Rome for number 6

[Chinbits]

I think the moaners should take a step back and realise the fact that the only reason they are so angry and desperate is because Benitez has taken us so close. He got us number 5 and he's taking us closer and closer to United/Chelsea. Give him more time and he'll take us the final step as is proven by us beating the big guns this season. The fact that they are constantly moaning at him kind of shows that he's doing a job in my eyes.

[Redders1974]

I have to comment on this post. 

Its the best i've ever read on RAWK, gives me the shivers, simply awesome.  Think of all those wonderful european nights, I will never forget Istanbul, it will live with me forever. We live and die Red, support and dream. How lucky we are.

My brother in law is one of the most passionate reds I know.
He's been watching Liverpool since the 2nd Division days and has been all over the world supporting his team.

He's also one of the most negative fans I know.
In Paisleys first season we lost at home against Burnley and he said to us on the way to the pub..."That's it lads..........all over for us now. We'll never get back to where we were under Shanks"

Everyone just laughed it off and it was never mentioned again that day as we all knew what he was like.
It was mentioned many times since though.

We ended the season as runners - up, but the rest as they say is history.

He's always been like that, he's a glass half empty feller in all aspects of his life. but in recent years when things have been difficult he's transformed into a level headed, glass half full feller.

Due to ill health he couldn't get to as many games as he used to but for the past few years he's improved health wise and has missed very few matches.

We were talking the other day about the last 20 odd years.....as you do.
I mentioned his change in attitude over the years and he started to explain a few things that should resonate with some on here.

He said that enforced absence has made him realise what he had for all those years. The privilege of witnessing some of the highest and lowest days anyone could imagine.
Seeing the greats of the game playing for us and for the opposition.
Great managers pitting their wits against each other.

Making great friends and sharing so much with complete strangers.
All of this against a background littered with so much silverware, that if we never won another thing it would have been more reward than any group of fans ever thought they would witness or deserve.
He said that the unfair criticism of the team and manager this season has turned his stomach and he felt he needed to support more to counteract it. To defend his club.
Don't get me wrong, I still have arguments with him as he's got many different views to myself.
However......in the ground......he's a supporter.

Negativity isn't something I subscribe to. I don't have time for it. It's a wasted emotion.

Concern is natural and disappointment is the domain of 90% of all football fans. Frustration probably follows in the same proportion.

Saying that, I've never known the level of bile and incredible stupidity spoken by Liverpool fans like this season.
I've been saying since this campaign started that we have far too many who are not up for the fight.We just didn't have enough experience of a roller coaster title race. Seems like Ferguson was right wasn't he?

I still see it as a privilege to be born into this club.
I still go cold when I see the ground looming out of the sky.
When I see that glorious red kit against the lush green of the Anfield pitch,I'm an 8 year old kid standing on a box at the front of The Kop again.
The day that stops happening is the day they they nail the lid down on me.

What a nightmare season this could turn out to be.
What a glorious season this could turn out to be.

Who knows what will happen next at the house of fun?

One thing I do know is that we have a  unique club with a unique set of supporters.

We just have to find each other again.


 

[liverbnz]

Some good points in here, great one from hesbighesred> Fair points on the Arsenal and Wigan games. But what about the game away to Stoke were we created little to nothing until the last ten minutes?

We also failed to score at home to Fulham (team selction?), West Ham(poor performance), Stoke (unlucky and poor finishing) and away to Villa (poor performance) and boro (poor finishing and then spineless showing). Why do we fail to score in roughly 20% of our games every season?

People do overrate United, but one thing they do better than anyone else is get more people forward and quicker. At times in some of them matches above, Riera or Aurelio or Kuyt would stick in suberb balls only for there o be one or two players in the box. That isn't enough. Rafa comes out and says that putting more players up top doesn't guareentee goals. He is right it doesn't, but it increases the chances of it. On the other hand he says having everyone in the box decrease the chances of you conceding from a corner! Slight contradiction there.

[Redders1974]

Clearly we're not the finished article and with a few classy forward additions we'll be able to finish of those teams that we struggle to break down.  Ironically this also relates to ManU where they have the additions, possibly near to £100m worth, in 4 players... Berbatov, Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, we have maybe £30m worth in Torres and Kuyt.  Clearly this is the area we need to address as well as a winger.

Some good points in here, great one from hesbighesred> Fair points on the Arsenal and Wigan games. But what about the game away to Stoke were we created little to nothing until the last ten minutes?

We also failed to score at home to Fulham (team selction?), West Ham(poor performance), Stoke (unlucky and poor finishing) and away to Villa (poor performance) and boro (poor finishing and then spineless showing). Why do we fail to score in roughly 20% of our games every season?

People do overrate United, but one thing they do better than anyone else is get more people forward and quicker. At times in some of them matches above, Riera or Aurelio or Kuyt would stick in suberb balls only for there o be one or two players in the box. That isn't enough. Rafa comes out and says that putting more players up top doesn't guareentee goals. He is right it doesn't, but it increases the chances of it. On the other hand he says having everyone in the box decrease the chances of you conceding from a corner! Slight contradiction there.

[Guz-kop]

Sorry mate but I don't agree that it is simply down to the interweb. In thirty years, I've never seen such negativity, even when we were playing the worst football I've personally witnessed, under Souey and then later on with Houllier.

You must be kidding? There was so much negativity in Ged's final two seasons. After that Boro defeat in 2002 and we didn't win for about 2 months things just collapsed for Ged. By this time in 2004 people knew the time was up, by the time we lost to Charlton in 2004 at home people had given up and were just waiting till the end of the season for a new manager whether we finished 4th or not.

To be honest if you ignore the crap in the match threads there's actually a lot of well thought out critique of our team, style of play and the club in general. Some of it is negative yeah but isn't that the point of a forum? As long as it's well thought out.

In 2003-4 people were sick of what they were seeing, it was clear a fresh impetus was needed all the way through the club. There's still a fair bit of optimism around at the moment

[liverbnz]

Clearly we're not the finished article and with a few classy forward additions we'll be able to finish of those teams that we struggle to break down.  Ironically this also relates to ManU where they have the additions, possibly near to £100m worth, in 4 players... Berbatov, Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, we have maybe £30m worth in Torres and Kuyt.  Clearly this is the area we need to address as well as a winger.

We should be able to beat the likes of Stoke, Boro, Fulham and West Ham without the need for big money strikers. Did we not beat boro 2-0 at the Riverside in their UEFA Cup run season with the poor Morientes? Did we not comeback and beat Fulham 4-2 with 10 men in 2004? Who was up front then? Baros? Mellor? Benitez has done it before overhauling Barca and Real twice with a limited budget. You have to admit he has made some mistakes this season (as well as the players), and some of them mistakes are the same ones he has been making since he arrived.

[Redders1974]

We need more quality is what i'm saying.  You're giving me one off examples and of course there are going to be exceptions to any rule.
I'm not sure which mistakes you're referring to but clearly no manager is perfect.  We need to address our forward line with the exception of Torres we have been mediocre since Owen was with us.  We all thought Keane was the answer but that was a false herring. 

Rafa has always season on season improved each position, you cannot deny this, if you can name a position where we have gone backwards then i'm unaware of it.  Funds and more control over transfers is needed.

If Rafa had his way we'd have Dani Alves, Vidic, Barry, Simao at the very least.  Now tell me those would have been mistakes?  Trouble is we've been shopping in Tesco's with the exception of Torres whereas the Mancs pop down to Harrods every so often...

I'm only really repeating what others have tried to get through to the negative posters on here...

More quality is needed and this means more funds which means Yanks out!

We should be able to beat the likes of Stoke, Boro, Fulham and West Ham without the need for big money strikers. Did we not beat boro 2-0 at the Riverside in their UEFA Cup run season with the poor Morientes? Did we not comeback and beat Fulham 4-2 with 10 men in 2004? Who was up front then? Baros? Mellor? Benítez has done it before overhauling Barca and Real twice with a limited budget. You have to admit he has made some mistakes this season (as well as the players), and some of them mistakes are the same ones he has been making since he arrived.

[liverbnz]

We need more quality is what i'm saying.  You're giving me one off examples and of course there are going to be exceptions to any rule.
I'm not sure which mistakes you're referring to but clearly no manager is perfect.  We need to address our forward line with the exception of Torres we have been mediocre since Owen was with us.  We all thought Keane was the answer but that was a false herring. 

Rafa has always season on season improved each position, you cannot deny this, if you can name a position where we have gone backwards then i'm unaware of it.  Funds and more control over transfers is needed.

If Rafa had his way we'd have Dani Alves, Vidic, Barry, Simao at the very least.  Now tell me those would have been mistakes?  Trouble is we've been shopping in Tesco's with the exception of Torres whereas the Mancs pop down to Harrods every so often...

I'm only really repeating what others have tried to get through to the negative posters on here...

More quality is needed and this means more funds which means Yanks out!

Of course he has improved the team year on year and of course his hands are more or less tied when transfers come around but as I said he did it before with Valencia on a restricted budget. The mistakes I am referring to are the likes of resting Alonso against Fulham when Gerrard wasn't playing; or in-form Benny against boro; or playing the likes of Benny and Lucas against the very (over) physical Stoke. These sort of things have been done before by Rafa and they have been costly. Would doing these things different have resulted in a win. Maybe not, maybe a even worse result but who knows, but when Alonso came on vs Fulham we started to play and would Benny have missed them 2 chances El Zhar did vs boro'. Less likely I feel.

Like you though I also hate all the negativity around the club, booing Lucas and Babel, the Rafa out calls and people thinking they know better, but I just feel he has made some costly errors this season. We were 10 pts ahead on 1 jan then 10pts (effectively) behind come Mrach 1st. People are bound to be negative after that, although some people overdo it.

These are just my opinions and I am not trying to tell Rafa what to do because I know I can come across like  prat sometimes. It is my poor English I blame, was always shite at it at school.

[moving_unit]

My brother in law is one of the most passionate reds I know.
He's been watching Liverpool since the 2nd Division days and has been all over the world supporting his team.

He's also one of the most negative fans I know.
In Paisleys first season we lost at home against Burnley and he said to us on the way to the pub..."That's it lads..........all over for us now. We'll never get back to where we were under Shanks"

Everyone just laughed it off and it was never mentioned again that day as we all knew what he was like.
It was mentioned many times since though.

We ended the season as runners - up, but the rest as they say is history.

He's always been like that, he's a glass half empty feller in all aspects of his life. but in recent years when things have been difficult he's transformed into a level headed, glass half full feller.

Due to ill health he couldn't get to as many games as he used to but for the past few years he's improved health wise and has missed very few matches.

We were talking the other day about the last 20 odd years.....as you do.
I mentioned his change in attitude over the years and he started to explain a few things that should resonate with some on here.

He said that enforced absence has made him realise what he had for all those years. The privilege of witnessing some of the highest and lowest days anyone could imagine.
Seeing the greats of the game playing for us and for the opposition.
Great managers pitting their wits against each other.

Making great friends and sharing so much with complete strangers.
All of this against a background littered with so much silverware, that if we never won another thing it would have been more reward than any group of fans ever thought they would witness or deserve.
He said that the unfair criticism of the team and manager this season has turned his stomach and he felt he needed to support more to counteract it. To defend his club.
Don't get me wrong, I still have arguments with him as he's got many different views to myself.
However......in the ground......he's a supporter.

Negativity isn't something I subscribe to. I don't have time for it. It's a wasted emotion.

Concern is natural and disappointment is the domain of 90% of all football fans. Frustration probably follows in the same proportion.

Saying that, I've never known the level of bile and incredible stupidity spoken by Liverpool fans like this season.
I've been saying since this campaign started that we have far too many who are not up for the fight.We just didn't have enough experience of a roller coaster title race. Seems like Ferguson was right wasn't he?

I still see it as a privilege to be born into this club.
I still go cold when I see the ground looming out of the sky.
When I see that glorious red kit against the lush green of the Anfield pitch,I'm an 8 year old kid standing on a box at the front of The Kop again.
The day that stops happening is the day they they nail the lid down on me.

What a nightmare season this could turn out to be.
What a glorious season this could turn out to be.

Who knows what will happen next at the house of fun?

One thing I do know is that we have a  unique club with a unique set of supporters.

We just have to find each other again.

Brilliant post mate...and i couldn't agree with you more. Thats the great thing about supporting this great club...there is never a dull moment.

[Redders1974]

Fair enough. But as i said not all managers get it right every time.  Rafa gets it right 90% of the time.  All those games we've drawn were down to poor finishing, we had chances to win them twice over.
Something else which goes unnoticed is how good our league is, nothing is over.  When Rafa won it in La liga, Real and Barca went through very poor patches.
As much as it pains me to say it but we're up against a monster in the Mancs, also Chelsea who have really caused their own downfall, they have a superior team to ours man for man and Arsenal are not far behind...  So forgive me for celebrating Rafa's application and clearly superb organisation.  Just imagine if he was manager of Chelsea, hmm now thats a very scary thought!

Of course he has improved the team year on year and of course his hands are more or less tied when transfers come around but as I said he did it before with Valencia on a restricted budget. The mistakes I am referring to are the likes of resting Alonso against Fulham when Gerrard wasn't playing; or in-form Benny against boro; or playing the likes of Benny and Lucas against the very (over) physical Stoke. These sort of things have been done before by Rafa and they have been costly. Would doing these things different have resulted in a win. Maybe not, maybe a even worse result but who knows, but when Alonso came on vs Fulham we started to play and would Benny have missed them 2 chances El Zhar did vs boro'. Less likely I feel.

Like you though I also hate all the negativity around the club, booing Lucas and Babel, the Rafa out calls and people thinking they know better, but I just feel he has made some costly errors this season. We were 10 pts ahead on 1 jan then 10pts (effectively) behind come Mrach 1st. People are bound to be negative after that, although some people overdo it.

These are just my opinions and I am not trying to tell Rafa what to do because I know I can come across like  prat sometimes. It is my poor English I blame, was always shite at it at school.

[hesbighesred]

I'm glad I'm not the only who noticed this. It's not all that recent a style for them either. For many years in europe and nearly 2 seasons in the league. 2 Players sitting deep and passing sideways.

Yup.

I'd go even further than that.

Fergie is ruthless, a peerless man manager and phenomenal at implementing tough changes at the right time.

However he isn't a spectacular innovator or tactical thinker.

I honestly believe, honestly, that within a couple of years of arriving on these shores, Fergie saw which way the wind was blowing, saw what Rafa was going for and how well it could work, and set out to achieve much the same. In Rafa's first couple of seasons Fergie was still more wedded to a 4-4-2, despite the influence of the (at one time) much maligned 'negative' Queiroz.

However, he's switched increasingly to a 4-5-1 variant, has completely abandoned having an attacking midfielder (a staple of his first 20 years or so), has wingers who cut in more and more (with the likes of Rooney, Park and Tevez often making a Kuyt like hard working option...though R and T are obviously superior), and has been, especially these last two years, rotating quite ruthlessly...even more so than Benítez does, especially in terms of leaving out his 'stars' and in rotating key areas that people get all frothy about when we do it (EG CM and CB).

Look at his European tactics in particular...and that for me is the clincher and the reason why he's embraced a lot of Rafa's philosophy (IE to win in Europe) and the last two seasons he's played very much like we did in Rafa's first couple of seasons, IE keeping it ridiculously tight.

Very annoying that Fergie is still somehow credited with playing expansively in Europe...which they certainly didn't last season, maybe have started to a bit this season (Inter being a positive display, though seemingly a counter attack based one rather than them controlling the opposition) wheras we have developed from solidity and countering to actually being a team that dominates the very best teams on their home grounds...Inter, Barca, Real...the latter have dismissed us defensive but both are wrong. We out created and out possessed both clubs, starting defensively but getting an increasing grip on the match an deventually dominating.

A pure countering side does not recover from 1-0 down at the Nou Camp FFS. How does a defensive side like us become the only team (correct me if I'm wrong) to have come from behind to beat the Mancs this year? Has anyone else even scored 2 past them? In fact, how did this myth of us being a defensive, counter attacking side start? Defensive I can just about cope with...but if it is defensive it's defensive in the style of Milan/Juve and co circa early 90's...defense based on control of possession and carefully picked and worked attacks...not 10 behind the ball and break at great pace where possible. Maybe that's why Inter showed us proper respect after our victory...the Italians know the difference between desperate defence and actual control of a game better than anyone.
 

[hesbighesred]

Nice one Ari - completely agree with every word of that, if I'd read that quicker it'd have saved me some typing.

I particularly agree with the bit about our own history...I 100% feel that embrace of continental tactics is what made us so special and unique, and I also believe we are getting that back. It's also a reason why I think Rafa is still here...recent moans notwithstanding I think we are more tolerant than most fans in terms of a manager being able to implement the kind of tactics you describe.

This is also why I get really depressed with the odd Ald arse (and there's not to many of them on here) who start frothing at the mouth about how Rafa is almost pissing on the legacy of pass-and-move and attacking football set out by Shankly-Paisley-Dalglish.

It simply isn't true...we've always had a rep for being cagey, for being able to grind out 1-0's that's every bit as much a part of our mystique as dominant wins and attacking football.

In my early years, especially in Europe, any (and rare these occasions sadly were) time we managed to get a lead and start passing around the defence at 1-0 you'd get the 'this is like Liverpool of old' comments flooding in.

Benitez is plugging us back into that Paisley/Shankly tradition in a way that Evans/Houllier/Souness never got close to so it's really sad to see the vitriol aimed at him, especially if it comes from an older fan who should know better.

On the other hand, most of the older posters on here seem to see Rafa in those terms...whatever doubts they may have what he's building is acknowledged, the way we play in Europe is hugely respected (and far too many whoppers dismiss the CL these days as if it were the Carling Cup or some shit. I really wish those 'oh well the CL's ok but who gives a shit really?' types would sod off but never mind) and that link to our past is also seen, I think. Not least because Rafa, as a man, is the sort of manager who feels right for Liverpool...also why so many are dead against Mourinho as a manager despite his skills being generally respected.

[3rdStone]

6 out of 7 days I don't get too bothered about the misinformation regrading how we play vs 'them'. But when our our supporters start believing the banter as fact and then journos perpetuate the myths it can get on my tits.

They still go on about us having eleven behind the ball in 05 vs Chelsea. Now Manu put XI behind the ball almost every time they visit Anfield. Opinions seem years out of date.

Better to be right on the pitch and wrong in someone's eyes I guess. Although some people think MON plays attractve football and he's Houllier mark2. Lump it long to Heskey, set peices or let Young (Owen) rush in behind.

[hesbighesred]

macca 888 I think there was a lot more negativity around at the end of Ged's reign to be honest.


I'd be fascinated to know how we'd feel if all our draws came at the start of the season then we starting winning, effectively reversing the order of results. Same for utd.

I'd imagine a lot of short termers (copyright thank you) would be thinking Come On, we can can catch them, and the media would be Ooh have they left it too late, or are utd shaking with these recent run of poor form and so on.

The table would be the same but the outlook entirely different.

I feel like that about the SL win as well, felt for a long time Rafa's made a rod for his own back with that one.

If it goes the other way...we lose to Milan first time...oh well, no win expected good that we got there...then FA cup next season, then wins the CL in '07, when we were the best team, playing the best in the competition by a mile (and Milan should never even have been IN that year's competition, it still infuriates me that being guilty of actual corruption was rewarded with a fuckng CL place) then I don't think we'd have any/many moaners now, and very few would doubt the obvious progression.

--------------------------

By the way, this is a brilliant thread with some really superb posts all round, not least from Shanklyboy and FS (surprise surprise) but just about every post has added something interesting to the debate.

Well done Andy on the OP.

[hesbighesred]

Some good points in here, great one from hesbighesred> Fair points on the Arsenal and Wigan games. But what about the game away to Stoke were we created little to nothing until the last ten minutes?

We also failed to score at home to Fulham (team selction?), West Ham(poor performance), Stoke (unlucky and poor finishing) and away to Villa (poor performance) and boro (poor finishing and then spineless showing). Why do we fail to score in roughly 20% of our games every season?

People do overrate United, but one thing they do better than anyone else is get more people forward and quicker. At times in some of them matches above, Riera or Aurelio or Kuyt would stick in suberb balls only for there o be one or two players in the box. That isn't enough. Rafa comes out and says that putting more players up top doesn't guareentee goals. He is right it doesn't, but it increases the chances of it. On the other hand he says having everyone in the box decrease the chances of you conceding from a corner! Slight contradiction there.

Liver - don't get me wrong, I do think we need some better players in attack, and I would agree that we're not quite there and stll do struggle to break teams down. Also think that 'failing' has a bit to do with defensive mistakes as well.

However, I just don't buy that it's anywhere near as bad as people make out. Nor do I buy for a second that we, and Rafa, are inherently negative. I've seen some of the great 'negative' teams, EG Cappello's Milan, some of the Juve sides, Arsenal under Graham - and we're more 'positive' in approach than they were (just as well because our defenders aren't that good either).

Cut short, we definitely need tweeking in attack, and I think and attacking RB is essential, but we're just nowhere near as bad in attack as people make out...especially considering how many goals Torres is worth and how rarely he's been fit this season.

It also infuriates me when, as in those examples, we're accused of being too defensive even when that quite clearly isn't the issue...and while the 0-0's were a massive issue earlier in the season it's ultimately been the recent spell of stupid goals conceded that has seen us fall behind Man U, us having a run of 1-1's (in which we scored first a number of times) while they have ground out 1-0 after 1-0 - without playing significantly better football than we have.

[majestic_11]

I think if we had made great strides in our play then i don't think there should be a issue. Yes we have done really well this year in terms of points but look at the games we have won and how we have won them......are we really good enough to win the league? If we can win be playing ugly, win when we are losing games and beat those teams that around us why aren't we good enough? Well i agree with the a previous poster when he said we lined up the same against Boro as we did against madrid........how many examples does Rafa need to suggest Kuyt can't play as a lone striker with stevie in behind him. Also i made a point of the team sheet that was selected againt Boro in 08 to the one selected in 09 and despite £40m invested in the summer there was only Ngogg in the squad.........that is simply not good enough!

Against sunderland we seen two upfront, stevie in the middle with licence to go forward and two full backs who are quick and technically gifted being given the freedom to break into the box and have a shot on goal. We allowed sunderland to break on us but carra and skertel( except the jones chance) were excellent......

I pray this is the standard from now on but as what has happened in the past we will see rotation and a change of tactics and system. I have never seen us play well when Rafa does some strange changes(reading away, pompey away etc..)

I don't think we have improved from last year however i don't think we are far away from being a quality side but players like Barry won't take us there!!

[hesbighesred]

We should be able to beat the likes of Stoke, Boro, Fulham and West Ham without the need for big money strikers. Did we not beat boro 2-0 at the Riverside in their UEFA Cup run season with the poor Morientes? Did we not comeback and beat Fulham 4-2 with 10 men in 2004? Who was up front then? Baros? Mellor? Benítez has done it before overhauling Barca and Real twice with a limited budget. You have to admit he has made some mistakes this season (as well as the players), and some of them mistakes are the same ones he has been making since he arrived.

I actually think the opposite is true.

Breaking down stubborn teams with no interest in forward play is exactly what you buy £30million players for.

Put it this way, Rafa can out-tactic anyone. He knows how to break these teams down...after all, there isn't one game against a team like this where we haven't made enough decent chances to win the game comfortably (not something that could be said of Houllier's time). It's also fair to say that the sheer motivation and determination to implement any tactical plans to the letter simply isn't there against these teams...it isn't for anyone. Man Utd don't batter these sides...at least not unless they get a couple of goals early in the first or 2nd half and the opposition gives up.

What they do have, however, is cutting edge players all over the pitch who are marginally more likely than ours to take one of those 2 or 3 chances if it comes, while also having a superior back 4 that means that they see the game as all but won at 1-0, where we are still nervous and don't feel comfortable until 2-0.

The sheer nuber of such players they have also means that they can rotate against these kind of teams (as we all have to, it's essential if we want to compete in the CL, which again isn't optional with our finances, we HAVE to compete in the CL) but still keep almost the same strength...EG Tevez in for Rooney, Fletcher in for Carrick, Giggs in for Ronaldo and sure it's a weaker team, but almost a seamless transition, and the replacements are trusted completely.

As for men in the box, it's true to a certain extent (though an extra man in the box might also mean 1 less on the edge to regain possession, there is a balance to be struck) but I think we'd be greatly helped here by that attacking RB...if our FBs provide the width then the Kuyt/Riera (or whoever) have a lot more chance to get into the box and make a nuisance of themselves.

[SeanPenn]

Great posts FAT SCOUSER heisbighesred etc.

If Rafa had his way we'd have Dani Alves, Vidic, Barry, Simao at the very least.  Now tell me those would have been mistakes?  Trouble is we've been shopping in Tesco's with the exception of Torres whereas the Mancs pop down to Harrods every so often...

I agree with you mate.

However it too simplistic saying "if Rafa had been able to buy X,Y,Z". He was never going to buy these players at the same time. Buying X would maybe have meant Y wasn't affordable or needed. Maybe Kuyt would have flourished if we bought Alves. And maybe getting Simao would have meant Torres was never bought. It is all cause and effects. And the possible outcomes are too many for us to comprehend.

But hey, it is always fun to think what could have been. 

[shanklyboy]

Liverpool FC is fucking family, it comes first, and when it comes down to it are you going to throw a fit or fucking get behind us.

Defining comments.

No Surrender.

[fowlermagic]

Chatting with my buddy at home this week who is definitely on the "Rafa should be out" brigade. Supported the club through thick & thin since the early 80s and some of his points were -

When the pressure is on we are prone to buckling. Fans go on about how great we are in our end of season run ins where we typically gain more points than most but as he said this usually occurs when we have no pressure on and our title hopes are long gone. This season our buckling occured November onwards where we have won something like 25 out of 45 points. Pressure of being on top caught up with us and since thing we have seen form that has plagued us in every season Rafa that has joined us. An annual speed bump (sometimes two) that jolts us straight out of any chance of winning the big prize.

Very frustrated in our style of football as he sees defenders who struggle to pass a ball or unable to push forward when there is space in front of them. Likewise with our wide men as he absolutely hates Kuyt who underlines the type of football we play under Rafa......hardworking, conservative, narrow football that grinds out results like the old days but when given a chance unable to bloom as it has one or two gears and cannot step up to that high gear to break teams down.

Same issues we had in Year 1 we still have them...out wide and no cover for our main striker ...gone from relying on Owen for our goals  to now Torres....while with all the money we have spent we had to resort to using SG to plug the gaps when other expensive buys have flopped. Rafa knows how to keep clean sheets but when it comes to putting the ball in the back of the net his teams from Valencia to now have rarely got the blood pumping. They have their days but week in week out the issue of goal scoring / game winners is apparent especially when it comes to the next step in our progress.

He points at the league table as a true indicator of our progress. By season end if the team finishes 3rd, 12 plus points behind Utd and less points ahead of 4th or even 5th spot, highlights in his eyes anyway that we have reached a plateau under Rafa, which is nestled below the summit and just above the chasing pack who have had less money to spend than us but seem to be stay within reach of us most years.

Personally I think Rafa needs one more year at least as his signature of Keane indicates he knows we need another attacking player up there with Torres & SG. Get that right this summer then we may see a change in wind both in our team and my mate.

[conman]

Rafa does attact criticism from his tactical choices that confuse a lot of people... we are not exactly the sort of club that you can predict the score sheet each week, so when certain players are in form and left out of the next game or 2 people naturally react as normally players with confidence produce better performances. recently where Benny was left out after scoring in Madrid, Keane who finally got some goals was dropped and didnt play again pretty much, which also co incided with our drop in form... it doesnt take a mathematician to put 2 and 2 together to realise that choices like these will attract criticism...

From a position of being ahead without having torres, to being 7points behind with a game played more I think its easy to see why people are bemused and P*ssed off, thus the negativity shines through... I think our biggest problem in the run in has been the injuries to Torres and Gerrard, with Torres injured we have no 2nd option,  Ngog, El Zhar, Babel are all young and not producing yet, Kuyt is not a prolific scorer, and we sold the 2nd best option we had (despite the fact he was misfiring a lot).. I hope that with Rafa cutting his losses on Keane, he will have more of a transfer kitty this summer to make up for the deficiencies in our squad that we so clearly have.. that Keane transfer in hindsight was probably a bad move points wise,  but a good move financially, so lets push for the CL and the PL, if we dont pull either of them off, lets hope that we can get 2 or 3 top quality players those 2 steps forward, without the one step back..

[liverbnz]

I actually think the opposite is true.

Breaking down stubborn teams with no interest in forward play is exactly what you buy £30million players for.

Put it this way, Rafa can out-tactic anyone. He knows how to break these teams down...after all, there isn't one game against a team like this where we haven't made enough decent chances to win the game comfortably (not something that could be said of Houllier's time). It's also fair to say that the sheer motivation and determination to implement any tactical plans to the letter simply isn't there against these teams...it isn't for anyone. Man Utd don't batter these sides...at least not unless they get a couple of goals early in the first or 2nd half and the opposition gives up.

What they do have, however, is cutting edge players all over the pitch who are marginally more likely than ours to take one of those 2 or 3 chances if it comes, while also having a superior back 4 that means that they see the game as all but won at 1-0, where we are still nervous and don't feel comfortable until 2-0.

The sheer nuber of such players they have also means that they can rotate against these kind of teams (as we all have to, it's essential if we want to compete in the CL, which again isn't optional with our finances, we HAVE to compete in the CL) but still keep almost the same strength...EG Tevez in for Rooney, Fletcher in for Carrick, Giggs in for Ronaldo and sure it's a weaker team, but almost a seamless transition, and the replacements are trusted completely.

As for men in the box, it's true to a certain extent (though an extra man in the box might also mean 1 less on the edge to regain possession, there is a balance to be struck) but I think we'd be greatly helped here by that attacking RB...if our FBs provide the width then the Kuyt/Riera (or whoever) have a lot more chance to get into the box and make a nuisance of themselves.

Mate there are always going to be people who love to cut down the club and not see how well Rafa is doing, that will just be it, but you know that. I don't bother reading their shite anymore because I know they haven't a notion what they are on about.

You're right though, our attack does need tweaking a bit. Maybe some more pace maybe some more width from the full backs or maybe Benny is now gonna show the consistency we crave from him. Only thing is I think he suffers in physical games. I also think Arbeloa has been trying his best to get forward this season, but his final ball nearly always lets him down. Aurelio doesn't get forward enough for me, and Dossena just doesn't look confident and steady enough to trust. Maybe Insua is the answer on the left. He seems to know the balance of going forward and sitting back, plus him and Riera link up very well together, especially so against Sunderland.

As for the defence it has been stupid mistakes that have cost us recently. Cahill getting let go, Lucas making a silly challenge with everyone at sea, boro's 2 goals, all mistakes and not 1 well crafted. I don't know about anyone else, but Skrtel seems suspect to me at times. He has been involved in almost all of our conceded goals recently and I have never fully trusted him ever since he came here. I feel there are mistakes in him. He doesn't seem to read the game that well for me and judges crosses and long balls wrong at times. He was also easliy beaten by K Jones on Tuesday. I thought the Agger/Carra partnership was starting to develop again after Agger had his shaky few matches, but in comes Skrtel again. Losing Agger for  me would be a massive blow for us, he brings so much more to the team than any other defender. I feel we may have lost him though, but then I don't know the real story.

[Redders1974]

Clearly your friends has some strong views but not all as valid as they might seem.  You only have to look at the facts to see why...
We are close to top goals scorers in the league, for a team that struggles to score goals thats way beyond most people would have thought if they didnt know already.  Defenders running into space is also a myth, when have you ever seen Ferdinand or Vidic do this?  I've seen Skrtl and Agger do this, also as someone else said our fall backs usually spend most of their time in the oppositions half.
As for addressing striking issues, you're right about only having one truly reliable and world class front man, as we've experienced from purchasing Keane, this is probably the most difficult part to put right and probably the most expensive part hence why we still haven't resolved it.  I am pretty sure this is where most of our cash will go this Summer.  Rafa has started from the back and our most pressing requirements which was a strong backbone and you cannot deny he hasn't achieved this.
If we did win the league this season then i'd have to say we would have grossly over achieved....
Oh and the chasing have spent more than us, you only have to look at Spurs and Man Manchester City...tell your mate to have read of Tomkins articles especialy the factual ones, not necessarily his opinion as that can be very rose tinted.

Chatting with my buddy at home this week who is definitely on the "Rafa should be out" brigade. Supported the club through thick & thin since the early 80s and some of his points were -

When the pressure is on we are prone to buckling. Fans go on about how great we are in our end of season run ins where we typically gain more points than most but as he said this usually occurs when we have no pressure on and our title hopes are long gone. This season our buckling occured November onwards where we have won something like 25 out of 45 points. Pressure of being on top caught up with us and since thing we have seen form that has plagued us in every season Rafa that has joined us. An annual speed bump (sometimes two) that jolts us straight out of any chance of winning the big prize.

Very frustrated in our style of football as he sees defenders who struggle to pass a ball or unable to push forward when there is space in front of them. Likewise with our wide men as he absolutely hates Kuyt who underlines the type of football we play under Rafa......hardworking, conservative, narrow football that grinds out results like the old days but when given a chance unable to bloom as it has one or two gears and cannot step up to that high gear to break teams down.

Same issues we had in Year 1 we still have them...out wide and no cover for our main striker ...gone from relying on Owen for our goals  to now Torres....while with all the money we have spent we had to resort to using SG to plug the gaps when other expensive buys have flopped. Rafa knows how to keep clean sheets but when it comes to putting the ball in the back of the net his teams from Valencia to now have rarely got the blood pumping. They have their days but week in week out the issue of goal scoring / game winners is apparent especially when it comes to the next step in our progress.

He points at the league table as a true indicator of our progress. By season end if the team finishes 3rd, 12 plus points behind Utd and less points ahead of 4th or even 5th spot, highlights in his eyes anyway that we have reached a plateau under Rafa, which is nestled below the summit and just above the chasing pack who have had less money to spend than us but seem to be stay within reach of us most years.

Personally I think Rafa needs one more year at least as his signature of Keane indicates he knows we need another attacking player up there with Torres & SG. Get that right this summer then we may see a change in wind both in our team and my mate.

[majestic_11]

wow fowler!!!!!!!!

Rafa is in charge lets support him till the end of the year and judge the side then, i do agree that we have the same problems now to when Rafa took over. When we need a big lift the team seems to deliver it, Porto last year and Sunderland this year, its as if the shackles are removed we play with more freedom everyone thinks yes we have cracked it, wait till the summer and we will bring in a new full back, winger and forward and the wait is over.......Then we go back to the norm, and we then get linked with centre halfs and centre midfielders in the summer and pretty much waste our whole transfer pot!

I want to see two liverpool sides - the side we have now that is organised and can grind a result against any top side, and the one where the schackles are off and where we play to win with a high tempo from the kick off ( juve, Necastle etc) combine the two and we should see improvement, i can't see us improving with one without the other.....

[Kemlyn 28]

I think the manager is to blame...when you watch united play it is attack after attack...with us its mascherano giving the ball away and alonso seraching for passes that aren't available

     I think you are confucing this United with most of their old teams,despite the presence of Rooney,Ronaldo,Berbatov and others this has to be their most workmanlike side ever.How many results have they managed to grind out this season?Loads of them,they have a sound foundation ie a great defence you'd expect them to play with a lot more flair,but they don't.Imagine the stick we'd be getting if we played the same way as they do and won as many games!
   I do think though that our football is very dull,they bore me to tears at times.

[Priest078]

Boro was bad for me, the lad stood next to me after 5 mins was getting me down serverley with his negative approach. I talked back to him for a bit and then he started even going on about how shite the bench was as well and how it didn't inspire him, I just fucked him off and ignored him and chatted to me dad on my other side. WHY THE FUCK did he go the game?? can't work it out myself, tw@ put me on a downer after 5 mins. The lad the other side of my dad must have been doing the same but loder cos a load of lads had a go at him before the end of the game.

[mooks]

We should be able to beat the likes of Stoke, Boro, Fulham and West Ham without the need for big money strikers. Did we not beat boro 2-0 at the Riverside in their UEFA Cup run season with the poor Morientes? Did we not comeback and beat Fulham 4-2 with 10 men in 2004? Who was up front then? Baros? Mellor? Benítez has done it before overhauling Barca and Real twice with a limited budget. You have to admit he has made some mistakes this season (as well as the players), and some of them mistakes are the same ones he has been making since he arrived.

You expect us to win every game against the likes of Stoke, Boro, Fulham and West Ham?

Which team exactly are you comparing us to?

[jDJ]

I don't suppose he expects us to win against all of them but to drop points against all of them is poor.  Just using the teams he mentions we've been awful against Boro twice, Stoke twice, Fulham and West Ham this season.  Why do we underperform so often if everything is rosey in the garden?

[fowlermagic]

Clearly your friends has some strong views but not all as valid as they might seem.  You only have to look at the facts to see why...
We are close to top goals scorers in the league, for a team that struggles to score goals thats way beyond most people would have thought if they didnt know already.  Defenders running into space is also a myth, when have you ever seen Ferdinand or Vidic do this?  I've seen Skrtl and Agger do this, also as someone else said our fall backs usually spend most of their time in the oppositions half.
As for addressing striking issues, you're right about only having one truly reliable and world class front man, as we've experienced from purchasing Keane, this is probably the most difficult part to put right and probably the most expensive part hence why we still haven't resolved it.  I am pretty sure this is where most of our cash will go this Summer.  Rafa has started from the back and our most pressing requirements which was a strong backbone and you cannot deny he hasn't achieved this.
If we did win the league this season then i'd have to say we would have grossly over achieved....
Oh and the chasing have spent more than us, you only have to look at Spurs and Man Manchester City...tell your mate to have read of Tomkins articles especialy the factual ones, not necessarily his opinion as that can be very rose tinted.

I thought I was hard on Rafa but my mate is done with him. Guess when he sees us draw against so many average teams who have spent 20m on their squad the past 5 years gets right under his skin. Tactically they come with a break us down if you can attitude and we have the most draws in the league I think. Tactically we are getting found out big time but a Keane (well his type with more success here) will turn those draws into more wins I think.

Our defenders in the past 5 years have become less of a goal threat as center backs no longer score from set pieces and full back goals / assists are down I think. If Agger leaves then that will do all our heads in I think.

If we win the title this year..and we would be well on the way if converted half of our draws against mid table sides to wins...then we are fulfilling our potential. Statements like punching above our weight and over achieving for a team who is rated in the top 3 in the league and possible European Champions / ranked #1 in Europe does my goat in. City, Spurs spend their millions so they can stay in the league and so far has had very little factor in the title. The top 6 in the country are the usual sides and out of those we have outspent all except Utd & Chelsea...anyway each opinion has some valid points and there has to be some common ground among all fans. Tomkins articles are very well written but he writes for the club so a little tinted to say the least as one second he can state why we need Keane and the next good riddance..... part of the club PR. Now if you can get his own personal view on certain things I be very curious.

[yafoy]

I thought I was hard on Rafa but my mate is done with him. Guess when he sees us draw against so many average teams who have spent 20m on their squad the past 5 years gets right under his skin. Tactically they come with a break us down if you can attitude and we have the most draws in the league I think. Tactically we are getting found out big time but a Keane (well his type with more success here) will turn those draws into more wins I think.



Our defenders in the past 5 years have become less of a goal threat as center backs no longer score from set pieces and full back goals / assists are down I think. If Agger leaves then that will do all our heads in I think.

If we win the title this year..and we would be well on the way if converted half of our draws against mid table sides to wins...then we are fulfilling our potential. Statements like punching above our weight and over achieving for a team who is rated in the top 3 in the league and possible European Champions / ranked #1 in Europe does my goat in. City, Spurs spend their millions so they can stay in the league and so far has had very little factor in the title. The top 6 in the country are the usual sides and out of those we have outspent all except Utd & Chelsea...anyway each opinion has some valid points and there has to be some common ground among all fans. Tomkins articles are very well written but he writes for the club so a little tinted to say the least as one second he can state why we need Keane and the next good riddance..... part of the club PR. Now if you can get his own personal view on certain things I be very curious.

i would be more impressed if U argued directly against the content of Tomkins articles, thats just as prejudiced to tar his with the "corporate bias" without arguing his points..is it too much trouble or just easier to disagree with an optimistic viewpoint, I agree with most of his stuff ..and certainly one of the reasons is that none of the "Neggies" have come up with a decent counter to them..

the moronic, "we aint good enough" ...blah blah means nothing ...I know many posters make an arguement , and some arguably clever guys dont like Rafas methods , but ..just a point , that last month we beat Real Madrid away and Cheski at home...

there is still everything to play for, and whilst everyone has a right to an opinion, we should be like family and support each other, our manager & team IN PUBLIC..  its just how the KOP should be ..

it disgusts me when i see our "fans" swarming out early @ boro or last season @ Reading...must be rich & spoilt is all i can say...I pay too much & love my team too much , and want to SHOW my loyalty too much to leave one minute before the end (inc injury time ) ...I never done it once in 40 years...and thats just ONE of the reason that the negative twats annoy me...

[liverbnz]

You expect us to win every game against the likes of Stoke, Boro, Fulham and West Ham?

Which team exactly are you comparing us to?

Not comparing us to anyone, just dont think there is much excuse for drawing with these teams at home 0-0

[3rdStone]

Not comparing us to anyone, just dont think there is much excuse for drawing with these teams at home 0-0

My opinion on those results is a couple fall into deserved criticism but the others were down to bad finishing or luck.

When some get upset about how the season has changed they're all horrendous mistakes of mismanagement and poor players. A couple were but most weren't.

[kasperoff]

I think fans have a right to be disappointed mate....

We go to Madrid and grind out a memorable 1 0 win which is fantastic but its in the Premier League where we are at fault

We play the same formation away to Madrid as we do when we play bottom half teams in the league...was at the Boro game Sat...we had 2 defensive midfielders...boro didnt even have that...we show poor sides too much respect

I think the manager is to blame...when you watch united play it is attack after attack...with us its mascherano giving the ball away and alonso seraching for passes that aren't available

We WONT win the league with this manager

I couldn't disagree more. Out of our whole outfit as a club, I think Rafa is the only really Premiership contender we have. He is more than capable of winning the league. Along with him, we have a handful of players that have the class to grace a Premier League winning side, but that's about it. The rest of our set up is pretty average and pales in comparison to Manchester United. Right down to the rest of the squad to the owners to the rest of the execs.

We are lucky to have the man. He is pretty much trying to polish a turd sometimes, and is doing a pretty good job of it. If we finish 2nd this year, I think it will be a massive achievement.

We won't get near to winning it until we have new owners and a decent pot of money. I just hope that if the day comes, Rafa is still around.

I think it would be pretty much impossible for any manager to win the league with Liverpool under the current regime.

[scutty]

If its not the players/staff/owners its the fans.